Speaker 1: Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty
Speaker 1: verdicts against all three defendants.
Speaker 2: It was absolutely shambles, to tell you the truth, just
Speaker 2: absolutely really coming.
Speaker 1: Blood on his clothing the day after the alleged a
Speaker 1: top shallow mud bank and it fits through a river.
Speaker 2: Basically, I think most of the people are used to
Speaker 2: me are good people.
Speaker 1: I think a really important question we need to ask
Speaker 1: is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. This
Speaker 1: is Curtain, a podcast where we pull back the blinds
Speaker 1: to shine a light on the darkest parts of our
Speaker 1: justice system and ask who are the victims.
Speaker 2: I'm Amy McGuire and I'm.
Speaker 1: Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service.
Speaker 1: And a warning, this series contains the names of deceased
Speaker 1: peoples and has distressing content that might upset some listeners.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Curtin the Podcast. This week, my co host
Speaker 2: Amy McGuire is away and once again she's away from
Speaker 2: home doing work to support Kevin Henry and doing the
Speaker 2: work of Curtin the Podcast to help not only Kevin
Speaker 2: but also his community in Wurabinda. And we might discuss
Speaker 2: what Amy's been up to more in coming weeks, but
Speaker 2: with Amy away this week, I wanted to focus on
Speaker 2: a particular issue that's come up during the week because
Speaker 2: of one case that's been highlighted in the media. And
Speaker 2: I also wanted to do it in honor of Amy,
Speaker 2: given the sheer amount of work she does for the
Speaker 2: Aboriginal community and the broader community, and the core of
Speaker 2: that is selfless work of Amy, like thousands of Aboriginal
Speaker 2: women for the community, and they do the work in
Speaker 2: areas just as we discuss in the podcast here. This
Speaker 2: is about trying to get justice for Linda, to free
Speaker 2: Kevin Henry, who was wrongly convicted and still in prison
Speaker 2: twenty seven years later, whose family has been destroyed by
Speaker 2: what has happened to him. It's about exposing the police
Speaker 2: and what they did to Kevin, and also in not
Speaker 2: getting justice for Linda, but also their treatment of all
Speaker 2: the Aboriginal people involved in this case. As we've spoken
Speaker 2: about before, the police in this matter treated all the
Speaker 2: Aboriginal people appallingly, whether it was making serious threats against
Speaker 2: their life, interviewing people without lawyers, extreme misconduct, chasing Aboriginal
Speaker 2: people who had already given multiple statements around Queensland to
Speaker 2: give further statements that would fit the police version of
Speaker 2: events is constant harassment, constant bullying, and as happened back
Speaker 2: then and as continues to happen right around Australia, Aboriginal
Speaker 2: women are sadly in the firing line of this injustice.
Speaker 2: And perhaps one thing I haven't spoken enough about on
Speaker 2: this podcast, and something I'm seeking to address this week
Speaker 2: is the impact that all these issues have on Aboriginal women.
Speaker 2: One thing that was raised at the time of the
Speaker 2: Royal Commission into Black Deats in Custody by Aboriginal women
Speaker 2: around the country was the issue that while black deats
Speaker 2: in custody was a huge issue and remains an enormous issue,
Speaker 2: as we've stated before, some four hundred debts in the
Speaker 2: last twenty five years, and those debts include Aboriginal women,
Speaker 2: but what was raised at the time by people like
Speaker 2: doctor Judy Atkinson was that the Royal Commission needed to
Speaker 2: expand further that while a black man was dying in
Speaker 2: a cell and being beaten to death by police, Aboriginal
Speaker 2: women were dying in the community, were dying violent and
Speaker 2: vicious crimes. Aboriginal children were dying in the same way.
Speaker 2: Doctor g d Atkinson also raised the issue of suicide
Speaker 2: and the prevalence of suicide amongst Aboriginal men, women and
Speaker 2: children at the time and that this needed examining and
Speaker 2: all the issues that she, along with many other Indigenous
Speaker 2: women from right around the country were raising at the
Speaker 2: time and was saying urgent action was required if we
Speaker 2: were going to prevent a further catastrophe. Has only got
Speaker 2: worse in the last twenty five plus years. So why
Speaker 2: aren't we listening to Aboriginal women who, like Amy, are
Speaker 2: on the front line. And so for this podcast, I
Speaker 2: want to bring you the voice of Aboriginal women who
Speaker 2: have been fighting these issues for a long time. And
Speaker 2: as we all know, domestic violence is an enormous problem
Speaker 2: in the Australian community. Just how bad is it for
Speaker 2: Aboriginal women. We know it's an enormous issue if we
Speaker 2: focus on Indigenous women. I want to read something that
Speaker 2: Professor Marshall Langton said that was that violence against Indigenous
Speaker 2: women which ranges between thirty four times the national figure
Speaker 2: two in the worst areas eighty times. She said it's
Speaker 2: a high priority issue. Now, there was contention when Professor
Speaker 2: Langton raised this issue was the figure truly that high,
Speaker 2: And not only the ABC but also The Conversation did
Speaker 2: a fact check and they wrote extensive articles looking over
Speaker 2: peer reviewed research from the Australian Bureau of Statistics, Curtain
Speaker 2: University study papers, the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare,
Speaker 2: a large number of reports from independent women's councils, and
Speaker 2: just the raw data from health services and correctional services
Speaker 2: that related to these figures. And what Professor Langton said
Speaker 2: was absolutely right that the range was between thirty times
Speaker 2: higher to up to ninety times, so even more than
Speaker 2: the eighty times higher. The fact that you can have
Speaker 2: nearly one hundred times higher something that is already an
Speaker 2: issue that is devastating the community, impacting on a sector
Speaker 2: of the community community in this case Aboriginal women, means
Speaker 2: that this is taking place at catastrophic levels. This is
Speaker 2: not something purely for discussion or debate. This is happening
Speaker 2: right now and it is costing lives as we speak.
Speaker 2: This week, a number of women marched to Canberra and
Speaker 2: stage to sit in do women come from central Australia
Speaker 2: and traveled from Alice Springs to Canberra to deliver a
Speaker 2: defiant message, and that is they're sick of not being
Speaker 2: listened to and they're sick of not being heard. But
Speaker 2: rather than take it from me, this is why Shirlene Campbell,
Speaker 2: who has been fighting tirelessly and bravely for this cause,
Speaker 2: had to say this week in Canberra basically, we're just
Speaker 2: sick of it. We're coming here to tell the decision
Speaker 2: makers we actually want our voices to be heard. We
Speaker 2: are the grassroots people. We know what's best for our mob.
Speaker 2: So coming to Canberra is a star. Joined by Miss
Speaker 2: Campbell was a range of women who either work as
Speaker 2: workers on the ground in their community or have been
Speaker 2: personally affected by domestic violence. As one Miss Hayes, said,
Speaker 2: it put a tear in my eyes that we're talking
Speaker 2: to the government and teaching them that we've got feelings
Speaker 2: to us women. Miss Campbell has already lost two of
Speaker 2: her aunts to partner violence, one in twenty fourteen and
Speaker 2: one in twenty fifteen. Both of these women had suffered
Speaker 2: enormous abuse and yet outside of the community, no one
Speaker 2: did anything to support them. In fact, one of her
Speaker 2: aunts was a youth worker. Every day she was giving
Speaker 2: back to the community. Meanwhile, the broader community failed her
Speaker 2: until she was taken and she was killed, and she
Speaker 2: was murdered. So as sherline, Campbell said, I'm doing it
Speaker 2: for my daughter, I'm doing it for my grandmothers, my mothers,
Speaker 2: my aunties, and I'll also be reflecting on my two
Speaker 2: aunties who are not here today. And I'm doing it
Speaker 2: in honor of these two ladies. Another member of the
Speaker 2: group explained how so many of them have been victims
Speaker 2: of violence. She said, all of us women, we've been victims.
Speaker 2: The violence always goes into the homes and it starts
Speaker 2: off with racism and arguing and then a fight starts
Speaker 2: and it's just got to stop. Now you're hearing directly
Speaker 2: what original women from Central Australia are trying to say.
Speaker 2: We shouldn't have people who are victims of violence having
Speaker 2: to travel to the nation's capital to demand action. Our
Speaker 2: politicians are there to serve us, to serve the broader
Speaker 2: community and to serve those in need. Why has the
Speaker 2: support not come for these women? Cannot be said that
Speaker 2: the issue was unknown. As I previously referenced, doctor gud
Speaker 2: Atkinson was writing about this at the time of the
Speaker 2: Royal Commission. That's more than twenty five years ago. Others
Speaker 2: were raising the issue long before then, and yet again
Speaker 2: we still have this silence and this inaction. But I
Speaker 2: want to tell you about something that is one of
Speaker 2: the most disturbing things about the message the women from
Speaker 2: Central Australia and Our Springs brought to Canberra, And that's
Speaker 2: something that has been reported before, and that is that
Speaker 2: in Our Springs at the Women's Shelter, there is what's
Speaker 2: known as an anti homicide section. The women's shelter basically
Speaker 2: resembles a prison. If you were to look at photos
Speaker 2: of it, you would be convinced that it was a prison.
Speaker 2: It has large gates, large metal fences that are completely impenetrable,
Speaker 2: double barriers, alarm systems, CCTV and much more. And it's
Speaker 2: for women who are fleeing domestic violence to be safe.
Speaker 2: Is there something not drastically wrong with the fact that
Speaker 2: women who are victims are having to run for their
Speaker 2: lives with their children in the middle of the night
Speaker 2: and need a prison like environment to ensure their safety.
Speaker 2: Why do they need this if they're not being failed
Speaker 2: by the community. So it's completely understandable that miss Campbell,
Speaker 2: along with many others, are seeking long term government funding
Speaker 2: so that they can put their work into practice. Not
Speaker 2: the governments, they know what's best for their communities. This
Speaker 2: is what Miss Campbell had to say further to her
Speaker 2: earlier points. We want to tell the government to listen
Speaker 2: to us, stand with us, and to support us. We're
Speaker 2: working hard and we want to build that collaboration with
Speaker 2: the government sharing our voices. We want our program to
Speaker 2: be run for our next future generations. I feel so
Speaker 2: strong and confident hoping that our programs run for those generations.
Speaker 2: It's also a privilege coming to Canberra because I want
Speaker 2: to share that message about visibility the issue, about the
Speaker 2: visibility of this issue, and that Indigenous women from around
Speaker 2: the country have been raising this for years and are
Speaker 2: coming again this week and have done to Canberra to
Speaker 2: plead for the support so that they can implement their programs.
Speaker 2: That work should be known to all. This week we
Speaker 2: had another example of why those issues should be known,
Speaker 2: because often what I hear is that why don't the
Speaker 2: women go to the police. Well, here's the story from
Speaker 2: Western Australia just this week that will highlight very clearly
Speaker 2: whey Aboriginal women do not feel safe going to the
Speaker 2: pl and I'll read from the first paragraph of just
Speaker 2: one of the many articles that covered it. A mentally
Speaker 2: ill and physically unwell Aboriginal woman was taken from Western
Speaker 2: Australia's Bundyat Women's Prison to Grayland's Hospital, where she was
Speaker 2: discovered naked and covered in her own blood in the
Speaker 2: back of a prison van. When staff opened the doors
Speaker 2: at the Graylan's Franklin unit, they discovered the distressed woman,
Speaker 2: who had been menstruating at the time. Last year, another
Speaker 2: Indigenous woman died after experiencing a heart attack at the
Speaker 2: same prison. How is this possible that a woman who
Speaker 2: is both mentally and physically unwell, who clearly needs to
Speaker 2: be in a hospital is shackled, placed in a van,
Speaker 2: completely naked and left covered in her own blood. These
Speaker 2: are the things we hear from war zones. This is
Speaker 2: some of the most degrading, humiliating and torturous behavior you
Speaker 2: can subject any human being too. This is being done
Speaker 2: not to a person who is a criminal, but someone
Speaker 2: who is both mentally and physically unwell. How can there
Speaker 2: be anything but a reaction to this To meet the
Speaker 2: demands of Aboriginal women from around the country that the
Speaker 2: programs implemented by government simply don't work. In fact, many
Speaker 2: are designed to fail and have been failing Aboriginal women
Speaker 2: and children for more than two hundred years. Now is
Speaker 2: the time to support the voices of Aboriginal women who
Speaker 2: are calling on funding so they can implement the programs
Speaker 2: they know will help them because they work. If we
Speaker 2: moved to Marie. Another example. Just this week, more than
Speaker 2: twenty Aboriginal women held a workshop to learn, to teach,
Speaker 2: and to discuss domestic violence and how best they can
Speaker 2: serve their community. They've, of course, already been doing this.
Speaker 2: They've been dealing with domestic violence all their lives. Their
Speaker 2: mothers dealt with it, their grandmothers dealt with it, and
Speaker 2: not all have survived. This is unconscionable in what is
Speaker 2: supposed to be a first world country. But one of
Speaker 2: the women explained why it was so beneficial and why
Speaker 2: these programs need to be rolled out, And this is
Speaker 2: what she had to say. From what I've got out
Speaker 2: of today, I know how to help someone. Most of
Speaker 2: my friends around me, I'll know how to talk to
Speaker 2: them and how to deal with it. I've had people
Speaker 2: come to me before, But if someone comes to me now,
Speaker 2: I'll tell them to speak up, don't be afraid to
Speaker 2: ask for help, and don't be silent. She went on
Speaker 2: to say that it affects everyone. They all forget it
Speaker 2: affects the kids. You only think of yourself, but forget
Speaker 2: the kids are going through it as well. This is
Speaker 2: why these issues become generational because children see this violence,
Speaker 2: they experience this violence. They live in the home where
Speaker 2: this takes place. They live in a community where no
Speaker 2: one steps forward from outside like he's done for everyone
Speaker 2: else to help them. In fact, many of these children
Speaker 2: end up in juvenile dettention purely for being on the
Speaker 2: street late at night or admitting very minor minor crimes.
Speaker 2: As we spoke about a number of weeks ago, in
Speaker 2: a peer reviewed medical journal, it was found that in
Speaker 2: Western Australia, nine out of ten Aboriginal children in juvenile
Speaker 2: detention aged beeen between ten and seventeen at at least
Speaker 2: one form of severe brain impairment. Is it any wonder
Speaker 2: these children are struggling to deal with what's going on
Speaker 2: in their homes. No child can deal with this issue.
Speaker 2: Most of us, as adults, struggle to deal with this.
Speaker 2: None of us can do it alone. And yet we
Speaker 2: are asking young children as young as ten who have
Speaker 2: a severe brain impairment. Fifty percent had more than three
Speaker 2: severe brain impairments, and a third of the children suffered
Speaker 2: fetal alcohol syndrome. These kids were not being helped. These
Speaker 2: kids were not being supported. These kids were not being
Speaker 2: helped to go to school, receive the counseling they need,
Speaker 2: to receive the basic nutrition and support they need. These
Speaker 2: were all kids who are imprisoned. How do they have
Speaker 2: any chance as adults? Again, I want to go back
Speaker 2: to something doctor Judy Atkinson said, and she said that
Speaker 2: when we look at all these issues, the over policing,
Speaker 2: the racism, the discrimination, the way incarceration impacts on entire
Speaker 2: Aboriginal communities, she made this simple statement, few people want
Speaker 2: to consider its impact on Indigenous women. This is something
Speaker 2: we have to bring front and center. We know about
Speaker 2: Western Australia, we know what happened to Miss Jew. How
Speaker 2: is it that a number of years after Miss Jew
Speaker 2: died at the hands of police and Corrective Services, and
Speaker 2: the Health Department for that matter, simply for having unpaid fines,
Speaker 2: still sees a woman shackled in her own blood in
Speaker 2: a police fan. How is that possible? How have changes
Speaker 2: not been made to bring that? Back to domestic violence?
Speaker 2: We only have to look at something that happened at
Speaker 2: the very end of last year. But not only are
Speaker 2: the police and services not actively supporting Aboriginal women, they're
Speaker 2: actively punishing original women who even dared to speak out
Speaker 2: about domestic violence. Just last year, an Aboriginal mother supporting
Speaker 2: her daughter contacted the police to speak about a domestic
Speaker 2: violence issue that her daughter was experiencing, and so that
Speaker 2: she could be with her daughter so that they could
Speaker 2: explain to the police what was going on. This is
Speaker 2: precisely what we asked people to do, to support one another,
Speaker 2: to support their loved ones, and to contact the police.
Speaker 2: This woman would end up in prison. Why because when
Speaker 2: she contacted the police and they came to her home
Speaker 2: as she requested of them, they discovered that there was
Speaker 2: a warrant of commitment and she was imprisoned for weeks.
Speaker 2: It could have been longer, but luckily someone paid maid
Speaker 2: the fine. So what was it that was so much
Speaker 2: more important than the domestic violence her daughter was experiencing
Speaker 2: that the police decided that rather than deal with that
Speaker 2: issue that results in the murder of women every single
Speaker 2: week in this country. What was so important that they
Speaker 2: wouldn't deal with that that they had to take this
Speaker 2: mother immediately to prison. It was the fact that there
Speaker 2: was a civil dispute that was still unresolved, dating back
Speaker 2: more than six years ago. What was it about an
Speaker 2: unregistered dog? Police placed the importance of a civil dispute
Speaker 2: over an unregistered dog ahead of the lives of two
Speaker 2: Aboriginal women. Did not address the issue of domestic violence
Speaker 2: and instead imprisoned an innocent Aboriginal woman at Melaluca Women's
Speaker 2: Prison because she dared try to seek help for her daughter.
Speaker 2: What message does that send? Is it any wonder that
Speaker 2: women do not come forward for help when the result
Speaker 2: is being imprisoned for asking for that help. We also
Speaker 2: know that there's a range of reasons why many women
Speaker 2: don't come forward. It also includes the growing epidemic of
Speaker 2: having their own children taken from them, As a number
Speaker 2: of Aboriginal women said this week, the risk of losing
Speaker 2: their children means they're willing to accept the bruises. What
Speaker 2: a position as a community we put Aboriginal women in
Speaker 2: when they are choosed to make a decision whether they
Speaker 2: get hit again or whether they lose their children. And
Speaker 2: they have every right to believe this to be true,
Speaker 2: because not only do all the facts support them, everything
Speaker 2: they've ever seen in their lives has shown this to
Speaker 2: be true, that if their children are taken away, those
Speaker 2: children are often abused. We saw in Dondale what happens
Speaker 2: to young Aboriginal boys when they are in juvenile dettension.
Speaker 2: We've seen the murder of Indigenous children at the hands
Speaker 2: of their foster carerors. We've seen a hopelessly underfunded system
Speaker 2: continue to make the wrong call on children who are
Speaker 2: dangerously at risk of being killed. The issue of child
Speaker 2: removal is a complex one and it's not what I
Speaker 2: seek to take on this week, but it is from
Speaker 2: the words of Aboriginal women, something that weighs heavily on
Speaker 2: their minds when they decide whether to pick up the
Speaker 2: phone and report violence being committed against them. This is
Speaker 2: part of the horrific legacy of the stolen generations, and
Speaker 2: that damage continues. I want to bring things full circle
Speaker 2: again to doctor Judy Atkinson, who stated a startling statistic
Speaker 2: when she wrote about the need for royal commissions, particularly
Speaker 2: the one that looked at Aboriginal deaths in custody to
Speaker 2: assist Aboriginal women and Aboriginal children. And this was one
Speaker 2: stat she quoted. In one state, seventy seven percent of
Speaker 2: the inmates in maximum security institutions for juvenile females are
Speaker 2: Aboriginal girls. In that state, Tho children make up just
Speaker 2: two and a half percent of the population, and yet
Speaker 2: there's seventy seven percent of the inmates in a maximum
Speaker 2: security institution. Young girls starting out their life having been victimized,
Speaker 2: born often into poverty, into communities that are given no resourcing,
Speaker 2: no respect, no funding, who don't have any of the
Speaker 2: basic services the entire non Indigenous community would riot about
Speaker 2: if they didn't have, from simple street lighting and garbage
Speaker 2: collection to the provision of drinkable water, health services, and
Speaker 2: food that is at an affordable rate, not at an
Speaker 2: extortion based prices that we often see in Aboriginal communities.
Speaker 2: Why businesses run from the cities, and yet despite all this,
Speaker 2: an Aboriginal woman with all become familiar with Linda managed
Speaker 2: to overcome. She was a tertiary educated mother. She worked
Speaker 2: to establish one of the first Indigenous childcare centers anywhere
Speaker 2: in Australia, the first in South Australia. And it wasn't
Speaker 2: just about caring for children, it was a place of education.
Speaker 2: She was an expert in this area. She'd done the
Speaker 2: work to get that education, to get that experience, to
Speaker 2: work with the people in the know, to come up
Speaker 2: with this formula and this solution for her community and
Speaker 2: for the broader community. And yet in nineteen ninety one
Speaker 2: she died in Queensland, and in twenty eighteen she still
Speaker 2: doesn't have justice because of the same racism, an unthinkable
Speaker 2: and unimaginable action by the police. Her murder goes both
Speaker 2: unsolved and without justice. And he is yet another reminder
Speaker 2: to Aboriginal women. But no matter how much you forge
Speaker 2: your head, no matter your bravery, no matter how much
Speaker 2: you sacrifice for your children to gain an education, to
Speaker 2: work in your community, to establish the programs and institutions
Speaker 2: to facilitate the healing, education and ability to close the
Speaker 2: gap that is always talked about when it comes to
Speaker 2: the crunch, you'll still be failed. So the answer is
Speaker 2: really simple. It's not to listen to me. It's certainly
Speaker 2: not to listen to the politicians. It's not to listen
Speaker 2: to the morons from people like the Institute of Public Affairs,
Speaker 2: who had the goal to come out this week and
Speaker 2: criticize the Aboriginal women who'd come to Canberra and the
Speaker 2: need for a look at the justice system and the
Speaker 2: way it deals with Aboriginal people. It's not to listen
Speaker 2: to any of the shock jocks, the people who don't
Speaker 2: know a thing, like Andrew Bolt, who didn't even finish school,
Speaker 2: let alone know a single thing about some of the
Speaker 2: most complicated facts and issues in our society. It's not
Speaker 2: to listen to the minister who's had more than five
Speaker 2: years to deal with these issues and it's done nothing,
Speaker 2: to the point that this is getting worse. These are
Speaker 2: people we pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to a
Speaker 2: year to study this issue, to come up with the answers.
Speaker 2: Aboriginal women already hold the knowledge. Aboriginal women already know
Speaker 2: the programs because they implement them and fund them, and
Speaker 2: they do it at a cost that most of these
Speaker 2: other people wouldn't even get out of bed for, let
Speaker 2: alone be able to run a center or a program
Speaker 2: to help the most vulnerable. If you really care about this,
Speaker 2: support the women I've spoken about today Aboriginal women right
Speaker 2: around the country. I'll put up links for these services
Speaker 2: on the curtainthepodcast dot com website. But quite frankly, you
Speaker 2: shouldn't find these things hard. This is very basic stuff
Speaker 2: and all the information is available. And how is it
Speaker 2: so readily available because my co host Amy Maguire, who
Speaker 2: is away this week doing this sort of work, makes
Speaker 2: it available and has done for the last ten years
Speaker 2: in print, online, on radio, on television, and in person.
Speaker 2: As she is joined by a host of other Aboriginal
Speaker 2: women from the community sector, in journalism, in the legal sector,
Speaker 2: in health, who have been raising their voices for generations.
Speaker 2: Now is the time for you to invest some time
Speaker 2: in what they have to say. Again, this is not
Speaker 2: about what I've said personally today. This is simply a
Speaker 2: call from me to you to listen, to learn, and
Speaker 2: most importantly, to open your wallet and support. I don't
Speaker 2: care too much about the price of smashed avocado toast
Speaker 2: in the city. What I care about is the lives
Speaker 2: of Aboriginal women and children right around this country will
Speaker 2: being failed because people, including the government, won't even front
Speaker 2: up for programs that cost to run per person per day.
Speaker 2: As little as that bloody avocado on toast. Next time
Speaker 2: Sam Armitage does a Sunrise segment on Aboriginal children. Rather
Speaker 2: than offer up her own uneducated opinion or invite on
Speaker 2: a shock jock who doesn't know a thing, or a
Speaker 2: racist like Pru McSween, how about she invite on Sheoline
Speaker 2: Campbell from Central Australia who's at Nicole face, or doctor
Speaker 2: Judy Atkinson who's been doing the research and the working
Speaker 2: communities for decades. How about she keeps quiet and listens
Speaker 2: to Aboriginal women who know this issue back to front
Speaker 2: but better again. How about the entire country start to
Speaker 2: pay attention to the voices, the lives and the humanity
Speaker 2: of all Aboriginal women. That was episode fifty one of Curtain,
Speaker 2: the podcast