Speaker 1: Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands
Speaker 1: were never seated. We pay our respects to their elders
Speaker 1: past and present.
Speaker 2: Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land. This episode was
Speaker 2: recorded on Drug wallamut Land. Hi guys, and welcome back
Speaker 2: to another episode of Life on Cut. I'm Laura and
Speaker 2: I'm Brittany, and we have such a freaking good and
Speaker 2: also very important episode for you guys. Today we are
Speaker 2: interviewing the one and only Terry Cole. Now, if you
Speaker 2: don't know who Terry Cole is, she is a psychotherapist
Speaker 2: based out of New York. We've had the privilege of
Speaker 2: interviewing her once before and on that episode we spoke
Speaker 2: all around cheating and can you overcome cheating in a
Speaker 2: relationship the effects that cheating can have on a relationship. Basically,
Speaker 2: we did cheating from the inside out on that episode
Speaker 2: and it was freakin' amazing. But what we're talking about
Speaker 2: on today's episode is Terry Cole's speciality. It is the
Speaker 2: thing that she has written multiple books on. One of
Speaker 2: them was a best selling book called Boundary Boss, and
Speaker 2: that is dinging.
Speaker 3: We are talking about boundaries.
Speaker 2: The reason why I think this is so important is
Speaker 2: because boundaries is the benchmark, the cornerstone of self help.
Speaker 2: It's what we speak about all the time. But often
Speaker 2: sometimes boundaries can come across as a little bit woo
Speaker 2: woo in sense of how does one set boundaries? What
Speaker 2: do boundaries actually look like in a relationship? Because it's
Speaker 2: so easy to talk about them as a construct, it's
Speaker 2: very very challenging to implement and set boundaries in your relationships.
Speaker 2: And often we speak about boundaries as being essential to
Speaker 2: romantic relationships, but we're covering so much more in this episode.
Speaker 4: I think a really important thing to point out is
Speaker 4: speaking about boundaries between parents and their children, because we
Speaker 4: do romanticize this idea that you should be best friends
Speaker 4: with your children instead of having that parental relationship. But
Speaker 4: Terry has some pretty strong feelings about that. I think
Speaker 4: is really important because I hadn't really heard it from
Speaker 4: that perspective before.
Speaker 2: Another thing that I really loved about this chat is
Speaker 2: that we also cover disordered boundaries, what they look like,
Speaker 2: and codependency and how those true things relate to each other.
Speaker 2: There's so much in this and if you're somebody who
Speaker 2: feels as though you need to set better boundaries in
Speaker 2: your relationships and with the people closest to you.
Speaker 3: This episode is for you, Terry. Welcome back to Life
Speaker 3: on card.
Speaker 5: Why thanks for having you, guys, I'm so sacked to
Speaker 5: be back.
Speaker 6: Talk us through the basics.
Speaker 1: What is a boundary and why are they important in relationships?
Speaker 5: So I want you to think about your boundaries as
Speaker 5: your own personal rules of engagement. This is lets other
Speaker 5: people know what's okay with you what's not okay with you.
Speaker 5: According to me, your boundaries are made up of your preferences,
Speaker 5: your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers. Right, So
Speaker 5: those four things are what your boundaries are made up of.
Speaker 5: And it's not enough to know them, which part of
Speaker 5: the problem is most people don't even know them. But
Speaker 5: you have to know them and then have the ability
Speaker 5: to communicate them readily when you so choose. So why
Speaker 5: are they important? This is how people know us because
Speaker 5: think about your boundaries, preferences, desires, limits, deal breakers. They're
Speaker 5: not just your boundaries. All of those things also make
Speaker 5: up who you are, uniquely yourself. So when we've been
Speaker 5: taught to be the cool girl, you know me, no fuss,
Speaker 5: no muss, whatever's good with you, it's all good, it's
Speaker 5: all good. What we're really doing is denying the people
Speaker 5: in our life the ability to actually know who we are.
Speaker 5: Like a lot of times we do it because we
Speaker 5: don't like conflict or we don't want any problems. We
Speaker 5: want everyone. We're managing the crap out of the people
Speaker 5: in our sphere. And the real question is why, you know.
Speaker 5: What people always ask me is why don't I know? Right,
Speaker 5: especially because my crew is like super high functioning, highly
Speaker 5: capable women in particular, that is my posse, And they
Speaker 5: just don't get They feel bad, They're like, I could
Speaker 5: figure out anything. Why can't I figure this out? And
Speaker 5: it's basically, you don't know it because nobody taught you.
Speaker 5: It's as long and as short as that, and just
Speaker 5: like a language, you can learn it.
Speaker 2: What about in terms of if you're a people pleaser
Speaker 2: and you find it difficult to disappoint people, And I
Speaker 2: think because like I've heard boundaries being spoken about in
Speaker 2: terms of, you know, you have a low self worth
Speaker 2: and that's why you're finding it hard to kind of
Speaker 2: put down and lay down your boundaries and communicate those boundaries.
Speaker 2: But what if you don't have a low self worth.
Speaker 2: What if you feel as though you are confident in yourself,
Speaker 2: but you have this innate feeling that you hate making
Speaker 2: people feel disappointed, and therefore you always seem to go
Speaker 2: above and beyond, not because you're lacking in self confidence,
Speaker 2: but because you hate this feeling of like I'm a
Speaker 2: disappointment or I've disappointed them.
Speaker 5: Well, kind of what you're talking about is what my
Speaker 5: next book is about, which is high functioning codependency.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right, so Laura, can we order the first copy?
Speaker 2: We're back to having a therapy session where Laura unpacks
Speaker 2: her own trauma. Yes, we end up you no, But
Speaker 2: I mean I do ask the question because and it
Speaker 2: probably is one that is introspective, but I do find
Speaker 2: it very challenging for myself. I am a people pleaser
Speaker 2: and I find it very hard to say no to
Speaker 2: people if they have guilted me into doing something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we had this exact and I know exactly
Speaker 1: what you're saying. We had this exact conversation over the
Speaker 1: last few days with Laura, this exact thing. I actually
Speaker 1: it couldn't be more perfect timing. Where Laura is so
Speaker 1: confident and sure of herself, but she will always say
Speaker 1: yes when she doesn't want to do something for that
Speaker 1: exact reason, because she doesn't want to disappoint someone. And
Speaker 1: even through the way, I was like, but that's your boundary,
Speaker 1: Like you don't want to do this, you don't have
Speaker 1: to do it.
Speaker 6: She's like, but I just feel bad, all right.
Speaker 5: So we're really what we're talking about is the same
Speaker 5: exact thing. And you can understand why I'm writing a
Speaker 5: whole book about it, because it is about disordered boundaries.
Speaker 5: Because when you say yes when you really want to
Speaker 5: say no, that's a dysfunctional boundary, obviously, but you don't
Speaker 5: have to The reason why I came up with a
Speaker 5: new I coined a new phrase, high functioning codependency, because
Speaker 5: I'm like you, and because my crew is like you.
Speaker 5: We're highly capable, like masters of the universe, getting shit done,
Speaker 5: doing all the things, and running the stuff. Like a
Speaker 5: lot of times, we're the person that people go to
Speaker 5: in your friendship group. You're the rock and the family.
Speaker 5: You're the one that makes everything happen, and yet you
Speaker 5: are most likely overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes,
Speaker 5: the decisions, the circumstances, the relationships of the people in
Speaker 5: your life to the detriment of your own internal peace.
Speaker 5: And that's the definition of being a high functioning codependent.
Speaker 5: So the why you don't want to disappoint people is
Speaker 5: going to be as unique as your childhood was. Right,
Speaker 5: We're all going to have our why as to what
Speaker 5: does it mean why we don't want to disappoint. But
Speaker 5: what really becomes evident in the teaching of the high
Speaker 5: function codependency is that when we continue to self abandon
Speaker 5: force ourselves to do crap we don't want to do,
Speaker 5: say yes, we want to say no, that's a heavier
Speaker 5: price to pay. And so what ends up happening is
Speaker 5: you will learn in your life if you want to
Speaker 5: to get over this people pleasing aspect of your personality,
Speaker 5: because it really doesn't match really the rest of your personality.
Speaker 5: Lar like what we're talking about, it actually kind of doesn't.
Speaker 5: And think about it this way, when we say yes
Speaker 5: when we want to say no, we're doing it with resentment.
Speaker 5: There's a cost to the relationship to how we feel
Speaker 5: about the person. Because in my twenties I was much
Speaker 5: more of a people pleaser then, and it's like I
Speaker 5: would be like, oh, Betty is so entitled it's her.
Speaker 5: I cannot believe why she asked me to do all
Speaker 5: this stuff? What the hell is wrong with her? And
Speaker 5: it's funny. A girlfriend of mine, Kate NORTHRP, we were
Speaker 5: walking in New York a bunch of years ago and
Speaker 5: she was complaining the whole time about this person who
Speaker 5: she done so much for and she was like, who
Speaker 5: is like this? I can't believe she's asking me to
Speaker 5: do more blah blah blah like the whole time where
Speaker 5: we were walking to an event and when we got there,
Speaker 5: I said, yeah, Kate, she's got some nerve putting you
Speaker 5: in a position to have to say no. And she
Speaker 5: was like, oh my god, Derek, you're so right. It's
Speaker 5: literally on me to say no. I'm like, yeah, because
Speaker 5: here's the thing, you guys, and you know this taker's
Speaker 5: going to take. Yeah, it's up to the givers to
Speaker 5: set limits.
Speaker 2: How do you then get over the feeling that someone
Speaker 2: is not going to like you, or they're going to
Speaker 2: be angry at you, or there's going to be repercussions
Speaker 2: for the know in which you're placing and whether that
Speaker 2: be within your own family, whether that be within a
Speaker 2: work environment. I think for people who struggle to set boundaries.
Speaker 2: It's often because they're so worried about how that's going
Speaker 2: to impact the other person.
Speaker 5: How do I get over the feeling? Well, you learn
Speaker 5: to tolerate the feeling, and then you start to have
Speaker 5: positive experiences because it's not just a bad feeling that comes.
Speaker 5: When you set honest boundaries, you deepen the intimacy in
Speaker 5: your life, you allow yourself to excelt you have relationships
Speaker 5: that also feed you. You allow people to help you,
Speaker 5: like there's more mutuality when you're not managing people. Because
Speaker 5: here's what's happening, when you're saying yes when you really
Speaker 5: want to say no. And you, guys, let's all get clear.
Speaker 5: If you are in a relationship, if you have a family,
Speaker 5: it doesn't mean we're never going to do shit we
Speaker 5: don't want to do. We do it for love, we
Speaker 5: do it for compromise. We do it because that's called
Speaker 5: being in a relationship. We're talking about times when you
Speaker 5: really could say no when it really is your decision
Speaker 5: to make, and that you don't allow yourself to say no.
Speaker 5: That's what we're talking about and the real question and
Speaker 5: what I would say this could be helpful to anybody
Speaker 5: listening is try to get to the original injury, because
Speaker 5: there is one. What is it about when when someone
Speaker 5: is wanting something from you that you kind of don't
Speaker 5: want to give them or don't have the bandwidth for,
Speaker 5: or or tired or whatever? Who do they remind you of? Right?
Speaker 5: The three questions that we ask to figure out if
Speaker 5: you're having a transferences, who does this person remind me of?
Speaker 5: Where have I felt like this before? And how is
Speaker 5: this behavioral dynamic? Right? Like someone asking me to do
Speaker 5: something I don't want to do, but then me doing
Speaker 5: it and then be feeling resemple? How is that familiar
Speaker 5: to you? Maybe you saw it with the adults in
Speaker 5: your life, maybe you've experienced it or maybe in childhood.
Speaker 5: I don't know, but that can help figure out why
Speaker 5: it feels so threatening, because what you're describing as a
Speaker 5: child's feeling of that experience, because grown up you doesn't
Speaker 5: feel that way.
Speaker 2: What would you say constitutes or represents somebody who is
Speaker 2: very bad at sitting boundaries?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 3: What does that look like?
Speaker 2: And how could they identify that they're bad at boundary setting?
Speaker 5: All? Right, So let's look at the types of boundaries
Speaker 5: that there are and if anyone wants to know their
Speaker 5: boundary type, I have a free quiz online. It's just
Speaker 5: boundaryquiz dot com. It's super easing and there's thirteen quick questions.
Speaker 5: Then it'll tell you there's like seven archetypes. So you
Speaker 5: might be more of a peacekeeper, or might be more
Speaker 5: of a chameleon, and you will get your results from
Speaker 5: the quiz anyway. So you could have porous boundaries, which
Speaker 5: are boundaries that are too malleable. They're too loose, right,
Speaker 5: So that's more saying yes when you want to say no.
Speaker 5: More of a chameleon, more of a peacekeeper, more of
Speaker 5: a pushover type. You might have rigid boundaries. And this
Speaker 5: is the thing that people barely ever talk about. They
Speaker 5: feel like having bad boundaries only means being like a
Speaker 5: doormat to other people. That's not true. Having rigid boundaries
Speaker 5: is the my way, the highway people. The people who
Speaker 5: would be so quick to literally cut you off if
Speaker 5: you hurt their feelings, They couldn't go to you in
Speaker 5: like two point two seconds rather than be vulnerable and
Speaker 5: tell you that you hurt their feelings. So a rigid
Speaker 5: boundary is where your boundary is too hard. There's no flexibility.
Speaker 5: And then in the middle of that, of course, it's
Speaker 5: healthy boundaries where there's a certain healthy flexibility where we
Speaker 5: can compromise and we can work with other people. But
Speaker 5: we know who we are, we know what we think,
Speaker 5: we value our own opinions, we know that we're not
Speaker 5: responsible for other people's feelings. Right, Like, the definition really
Speaker 5: is is being super clear about what is your side
Speaker 5: of the street emotionally and in every other way, and
Speaker 5: what is someone else's side of the street. And when
Speaker 5: you have enmeshed or porous boundaries, you don't know that
Speaker 5: you feel like your friend's crisis is your crisis. Like
Speaker 5: you can tell if you have disordered boundaries in this
Speaker 5: way and in a codependent way, if you check your
Speaker 5: urgency the moment your friend calls you and is in
Speaker 5: a panic, how quickly is your heart racing and you
Speaker 5: being like, oh my god, I'm googling the answer, I
Speaker 5: know someone, I'm texting people. I'm in fix it mode immediately.
Speaker 5: But it's like taking it on rather than being like,
Speaker 5: how can I best support you? Or you know what
Speaker 5: I mean? The foundation of codependency is disordered boundaries, right,
Speaker 5: because what does it mean when you're codependent, overly invested in,
Speaker 5: overly involved in feeling states, outcomes, relationships, circumstances of the
Speaker 5: people in your life, to the detriment of your own
Speaker 5: internal peace, financial wellbeing, spiritual wellbeing. You cannot be codependent
Speaker 5: and have good batday. Those two things don't go together.
Speaker 5: And when you really think about codependency, it is a
Speaker 5: covert or overt bid to control other people's.
Speaker 2: Outcomesh's that I've been doing on one for thirty six years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's happened.
Speaker 1: I also think it's so important to note like well,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to say it's easy, but
Speaker 1: it is easy in a way, to change who you
Speaker 1: are and your boundaries that you do put on your
Speaker 1: life and your friends and your relationships.
Speaker 6: I used to be like you, Laura, and we were
Speaker 6: talking about this last night too.
Speaker 1: I used to have no boundaries, say yes, let people
Speaker 1: walk all over me, do everything, never want to hurt
Speaker 1: anyone's feelings. And then I think I just got shot
Speaker 1: on so many times that I am so far on
Speaker 1: the other spectrum now where I just if I do
Speaker 1: not want to do something that I don't have to do,
Speaker 1: I can pretty easily say no. Obviously, there are times
Speaker 1: you do something you want to do, and I think
Speaker 1: that's important to note. There's always going to be things
Speaker 1: that you do for a certain reason that you don't
Speaker 1: want to do, like that is life. But when you
Speaker 1: don't have to actually turn up somewhere and you're doing
Speaker 1: it completely against your will, that's when you have to
Speaker 1: start saying no.
Speaker 2: We also see people abuse the use of the idea
Speaker 2: of boundaries, like instead of saying and using boundaries as
Speaker 2: a weapon in a relationship like well this is my boundary,
Speaker 2: I'm just telling you how I feel, and like we've
Speaker 2: all learnt this sort of therapy talk.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: We saw it recently with the big conversation that hit
Speaker 2: the media, which was Jonah Hill and how he tried
Speaker 2: to set boundaries with his ex girlfriend and what did
Speaker 2: that look like?
Speaker 6: Or it's just being an asshole?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess my big question here is is
Speaker 2: how does one recognize the difference between what is healthy
Speaker 2: boundary setting and when someone is actually using it as
Speaker 2: a control technique or not even if it's controlled, but
Speaker 2: just that they're being an asshole with the boundaries that
Speaker 2: they're trying to set.
Speaker 5: But it is control though, So let's go back to that,
Speaker 5: especially if we're talking about the Jonahill Sarah Brady thing. Well,
Speaker 5: he was presenting his coercive control over her. He met
Speaker 5: her and knew she was a surfer. He met her
Speaker 5: because of her Instagram feed, and now he's like, you
Speaker 5: can't wear a bathing suit and your Instagram feed, that's
Speaker 5: my boundary. No, it would be like Sarah Brady saying
Speaker 5: to him, I met you and you were a famous actor,
Speaker 5: and now it's a year in or eight months in,
Speaker 5: and my boundary is that you don't ever have a
Speaker 5: kissing scene with another actor. That's my boundary. No, it's not.
Speaker 5: That's also not a boundary. So how do we know
Speaker 5: is when the other person is using the term boundary,
Speaker 5: but what they're doing is trying to control you with it.
Speaker 5: So I'm going to give you an example. I had
Speaker 5: a client who had a husband who he liked to
Speaker 5: go to bed late. She liked to go to bed early,
Speaker 5: and this kind of brought a bunch of conflict in
Speaker 5: the relationship. She was always coming in being like, I
Speaker 5: don't know why he goes to a bit so late.
Speaker 5: It's like ridiculous, And he comes in and wakes me up,
Speaker 5: blah blah blah. And my problem with the whole thing
Speaker 5: is that he would not be considerate. So she'd go
Speaker 5: to bed at ten, he'd come in at one and
Speaker 5: basically turn the light on, get undressed in the bedroom.
Speaker 5: You're like, this is so she was like, he should
Speaker 5: come into bed earlier. He needs more sleep. It's my boundary.
Speaker 5: And I was like, no, that's you trying to control him.
Speaker 5: That's you being his mother. That's you thinking he's a
Speaker 5: grown man. If he wants to sleep six hours a night,
Speaker 5: that literally is his prerogative in life. Where it is
Speaker 5: your boundary is making a simple request that he get
Speaker 5: dressed undressed in the other room, that he used a
Speaker 5: small light from his phone. Who is not flipping on
Speaker 5: the overhead light while you've been asleep for three hours?
Speaker 5: Like that's where it spilled down to her side of
Speaker 5: the street. And also, you know, we talked about them
Speaker 5: compromising and then they decided, you know, three nights a
Speaker 5: week to go to bed ten together or whatever it was.
Speaker 5: But that's the distinction. Her trying to control his bedtime
Speaker 5: is not a boundary. Yeah, her making a request that
Speaker 5: he not be an inconsiderate boob is right. That is
Speaker 5: a boundary to say I have a simple request that
Speaker 5: you not wake me up, and they were able to
Speaker 5: reach that agreement. But I think that's a good distinction
Speaker 5: between control and actual boundary.
Speaker 1: How important do you think it is to set your
Speaker 1: boundaries at the beginning of a relationship, just talk about
Speaker 1: romantic relationships as opposed to implementing your boundaries along the
Speaker 1: way as things come up. And in saying that, are
Speaker 1: you allowed to just change a boundary whenever you want?
Speaker 6: Like you know, something was okay yesterday, it's not okay anymore.
Speaker 5: Yes, now, I wouldn't do it that willy nilly, let's say.
Speaker 5: But the question is can we evolve in a relationship.
Speaker 5: Maybe I was willing to do X, Y and Z
Speaker 5: five years ago. Maybe I'm no longer willing to do that,
Speaker 5: and that requires a conversation acknowledging, Hey, this used to
Speaker 5: work for me and it no longer does, so let's
Speaker 5: renegotiate this. It's why I always have couples do what's
Speaker 5: called what I call a couple of vision, where annually
Speaker 5: you sit down and you're like, Okay, how do we
Speaker 5: want to spend our money? How do we want to
Speaker 5: spend our time. If we have free time, are we
Speaker 5: talking about the right things? Are we having enough sex?
Speaker 5: Are we like where are we? And every other week?
Speaker 5: Also having a state of the Union because we do change.
Speaker 5: I mean, jeez, I hope so like, are we hoping
Speaker 5: that we're going to stay like we were when we
Speaker 5: were seniors in high school? No? So the most important thing, though,
Speaker 5: in a relationship is have really in depth conversations about
Speaker 5: what works, about how you feel about things, about what
Speaker 5: you want. I remember when I met my husband, I
Speaker 5: was so overdating in New York City. I was single.
Speaker 5: I'd had long term relationships, but I was like a
Speaker 5: serial monogamous where it was, you know, I was like, yeah,
Speaker 5: for now, but like forever. No, definitely, not as soon
Speaker 5: as they'd be like I think we should engaged. I'm like,
Speaker 5: I think we should break up until my husband actually
Speaker 5: and I remember being like, I'm so much happier, Like
Speaker 5: I've built a really great life, so being alone there's
Speaker 5: nothing wrong with it. I've had three amazing careers, I've
Speaker 5: got great friends, I traveled around the I do what
Speaker 5: I want, that's what I want to do. And I
Speaker 5: remember when I met my husband, I just straight up
Speaker 5: was like, I'm looking for someone to be a partner
Speaker 5: who wants to buy a second home with me, who
Speaker 5: would consider having a kid, who would like I just
Speaker 5: said all the things because I was like, here's the thing.
Speaker 5: If he's like, wow, that's scary, bye, I don't have time.
Speaker 5: I don't care. And so there was something so liberating
Speaker 5: about telling the truth about how I felt setting boundaries right.
Speaker 5: I didn't want someone who had addiction issues because I
Speaker 5: had addictiony like I was in recovery. It was like,
Speaker 5: I don't need anyone who's got any of those issues
Speaker 5: for me. Right. There was a whole bunch of things,
Speaker 5: and in being able to just say them, it wasted
Speaker 5: no time. And my husband at the time he was like,
Speaker 5: sounds good.
Speaker 2: I wait all that sound I think so many of
Speaker 2: us have been guilty of being fearful of asking for
Speaker 2: what we want in case the answer back is no, yeah,
Speaker 2: And then so you think, well, maybe if I bide
Speaker 2: myself a little bit more time, they'll change their mind.
Speaker 5: It's like hiding who you are, hiding what you want,
Speaker 5: and then being in a relationship and being like, yeah,
Speaker 5: I wonder why I feel existentially lonely in this relationship. Oh,
Speaker 5: I know why, because the person doesn't know who you
Speaker 5: are because you're too busy trying to be what you
Speaker 5: think they want you to be. And there's something so liberating.
Speaker 5: And I see this with my therapy clients when they
Speaker 5: finally just get like, what is unique about them, who
Speaker 5: they are, that is their special sauce, Like, it's not
Speaker 5: like trying to be like other people and embracing that.
Speaker 5: And when you have that kind of level of self respect,
Speaker 5: what ends up happening is that it is just it
Speaker 5: magnetizes the right people to you because you're not afraid,
Speaker 5: you're not afraid to be alone, you're not afraid to
Speaker 5: tell the truth, you're not afraid to say no. And
Speaker 5: I always feel this way about people getting sexual really early.
Speaker 5: Speaking of boundaries, because back to BRIT's question about do
Speaker 5: we set the boundaries early and often or do we
Speaker 5: wait to see what comes up? I think with important things,
Speaker 5: we shouldn't wait to see what comes up because by
Speaker 5: then you've already invested your youth and your beauty, you've
Speaker 5: already invested your time, maybe your body. Who knows, right,
Speaker 5: So being truthful about what you're looking for, even if
Speaker 5: it's you're looking for something that can turn into something right,
Speaker 5: and exactly what you said, Laura, like, you know, if
Speaker 5: someone's like, oh, it's casual, and if you go out
Speaker 5: with them, even though there's the exact opposite of what
Speaker 5: you're looking for. That is self abandonment, that is putting
Speaker 5: what they want of what you want, and who knows
Speaker 5: why they're saying it. You're right, people can change their
Speaker 5: mind and if you go no. I mean I know
Speaker 5: a couple of where this happened where he was trying
Speaker 5: to break up with her after two years and she
Speaker 5: was like, this is what you do. You're ridiculous, this
Speaker 5: is this is your pattern. We're meant to be and
Speaker 5: you're definitely going to wake up and see that, So
Speaker 5: forget about trying to break up with me. I have
Speaker 5: but learning how to talk. And they actually got into
Speaker 5: almost therapy and they've been married for thirty years now.
Speaker 5: But I thought that was really funny where she was like,
Speaker 5: this is this is your pattern and it's just dumb.
Speaker 1: But also that, I mean, I feel like I've been
Speaker 1: in that situation before where someone tried to break up
Speaker 1: with me and I just said, no, you're not going Yeah,
Speaker 1: my boundary because I wasn't ready. I was like, my
Speaker 1: boundary is no, and they were like, okay, but they
Speaker 1: wanted to break up.
Speaker 2: With me, but they were codependent and they found it
Speaker 2: really hard to set boundaries.
Speaker 1: So they said, okay, so we both just stayed, like
Speaker 1: just because I wasn't ready.
Speaker 2: I would love to unpack a little bit more of
Speaker 2: a situation where say somebody has and I know we
Speaker 2: touched on cheating so much in a last conversation that
Speaker 2: we had with you, But say you're geting someone who
Speaker 2: has cheated or they have done some serious damage to
Speaker 2: the relationship because their actions or whatever were outside of
Speaker 2: what was the agreed upon arrangement. Let's say they've gone
Speaker 2: out and cheated, and then in order to rebuild that trust,
Speaker 2: you do have rules around your boundaries, like you're not
Speaker 2: allowed to be on this type of Instagram, or you're
Speaker 2: not allowed to be doing this or xyz. Does that
Speaker 2: then cross over into controlling that person or are they boundaries,
Speaker 2: because I kind of wonder if in order to repair
Speaker 2: the damage, there needs to be some rules around behavior
Speaker 2: so that the trust can be rebuilt.
Speaker 5: See the thing is it really depends on the situation.
Speaker 5: Because that becomes so much like mothering and monitoring and
Speaker 5: managing and all this crap that is not your responsibility.
Speaker 5: And what does it say about someone like I know
Speaker 5: that there are many people in my field who are
Speaker 5: like you know, listen, Cheating can be the best thing
Speaker 5: that ever happened to a relationship, and it can become
Speaker 5: super strong because of it. Yes, it can, and it
Speaker 5: can also just be habitual. Hell, so I think it
Speaker 5: depends on the history and the person and what does
Speaker 5: the person who cheated want. Do they really want to
Speaker 5: be together? Do they have the history of this? Is
Speaker 5: this the only time ever that it's happened. Because here's
Speaker 5: the thing, most people, there's two reasons people cheat. According
Speaker 5: to me, you cheat because there's something pathologically happening within you. Right,
Speaker 5: we have habitual cheaters who just this is what they do.
Speaker 5: They could be sex addicts, they could be love addicts.
Speaker 5: They just can't get enough. They can't one relationship is
Speaker 5: not gonna be enough. That's one scenario. And then you
Speaker 5: have people who cannot communicate in a relationship. They're not
Speaker 5: getting their needs met. They build up so much resentment
Speaker 5: that they become sort of low hanging fruit to have
Speaker 5: an affair because part of them just needs to get
Speaker 5: the hell out of the relationship, and you know, it's
Speaker 5: surify away of getting out is getting caught usually right
Speaker 5: if it's that case, And then they get into therapy
Speaker 5: and start talking and start really dealing with all the
Speaker 5: shit they haven't dealt with. That's where I see it's
Speaker 5: possible for there to be you know, a coming back
Speaker 5: together and honestly having it be better than it was originally.
Speaker 5: But you have to excavate all of that stuff. You
Speaker 5: have to talk about those things. So I know what
Speaker 5: you're saying about the boundaries, Like, it makes sense to
Speaker 5: a degree, because how are you going to you know,
Speaker 5: build trust back. But just the thought of that of
Speaker 5: being in a relationship and being like, hmm, you can't
Speaker 5: be on this thing because you follow models or you can't.
Speaker 5: It just seems so beneath the person who's having to
Speaker 5: be like, let me see your phone, you know what
Speaker 5: I mean?
Speaker 1: Like totally, I was just putting myself in the situation
Speaker 1: as we're talking, and I would rather not be in
Speaker 1: a relationship with someone if I had to put those
Speaker 1: boundaries on someone and say I want access to your
Speaker 1: phone whenever I want. You cannot have Instagram. You know,
Speaker 1: you cannot be out drinking on a Friday. If I
Speaker 1: had to be putting those boundaries because I was worried
Speaker 1: they were going to cheat on me, personally, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be in the relationship because I just think trust is
Speaker 1: obviously the numb one thing in a relationship and if
Speaker 1: they need to rebuild truck if they've cheated on you.
Speaker 6: But for me, it's I know.
Speaker 2: But the thing is, though, and I sympathize with anyone
Speaker 2: who's been in this situation because what is normal changes
Speaker 2: so quickly, and like if you've been with someone for
Speaker 2: X amount of time and then you start this behavior
Speaker 2: and you're in this type of relationship where you do
Speaker 2: check their phone or you are monitoring them because you
Speaker 2: know they were the ones who originally broke your trust,
Speaker 2: Like it.
Speaker 3: Becomes normal to you.
Speaker 2: And then the more you do it, the more you
Speaker 2: justify the reasons why you're doing it, and like it's
Speaker 2: so easy from the outside to go. I would never
Speaker 2: want to be in a relationship like that, And I
Speaker 2: feel the same. I would never want to be in
Speaker 2: a relationship like that, But no one wants to be
Speaker 2: But sometimes you find yourself there and then you think,
Speaker 2: how the fuck did I get here?
Speaker 3: How is this my life that I'm living with this anxiety?
Speaker 1: Well, it's something I wanted to ask Terry as well
Speaker 1: is and it happens all the time in my friend groups.
Speaker 6: We get people right into us all the time.
Speaker 1: But it's how do you set a boundary and actually
Speaker 1: keep it? Because so many people I know and exactly
Speaker 1: what you just said, It slowly, it erodes, it morphs,
Speaker 1: and it becomes normal. How do you set your boundary
Speaker 1: and actually make sure it's true to what you want
Speaker 1: in the relationship, because like, you know, people go into
Speaker 1: a relationship and they're like, my boundary is you don't
Speaker 1: do drugs and you don't cheat on me. You know,
Speaker 1: six months in they're cheating because they're on drugs, and
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden someone's like, okay, well just
Speaker 1: don't do it again. Like how many times are you
Speaker 1: allowed to bend that boundary? And how do you make
Speaker 1: sure it's like setting stone?
Speaker 5: Well, part of it is we have to acknowledge and
Speaker 5: understand we can't and don't control other people. But how
Speaker 5: boundaries work with repeat offenders? Because that's what you guys
Speaker 5: are actually talking about is someone where there's a repeated
Speaker 5: offense where we've established a boundary and maybe they've agreed
Speaker 5: to the boundary and now they're stepping over the boundary.
Speaker 5: So there has to be a consequence. So let's just
Speaker 5: say I had this example of this was actually a
Speaker 5: therapy client of mine who was in a relationship with
Speaker 5: someone and their agreement right one of her non negotiables,
Speaker 5: because that's important. Part of boundary is to know, like
Speaker 5: what is not negotiable for you in your life, and
Speaker 5: one of those things was exactly what you said, Britt,
Speaker 5: which was drugs and drinking were not her thing. She
Speaker 5: was in recovery. This guy was in recovery, and they
Speaker 5: were together for a year and a half, super happy,
Speaker 5: and then he relapsed and in the beginning she was like, Okay,
Speaker 5: just get back to meetings, blah blah blah, and then
Speaker 5: he relapsed again, and she basically is like, I can't
Speaker 5: live like this because it's threatening my sobriety. And she said,
Speaker 5: if you don't get ninety days in the next ninety days,
Speaker 5: then you have to move out. And so there has
Speaker 5: to be a consequence of like you've got to get
Speaker 5: it together or I'm moving out until you have six
Speaker 5: months or nine months or whatever it is, and then
Speaker 5: you have to be willing to follow through. So I
Speaker 5: think that part of what people don't do is they
Speaker 5: don't set up a consequence, right, even if it's something simple.
Speaker 5: It could be as simple as let's just say you're
Speaker 5: at home and you're making dinner and you're saying to
Speaker 5: your significant other, let me know if you're going to
Speaker 5: be late, so then you know I won't have the
Speaker 5: food ready when whatever. And if they don't do that,
Speaker 5: and if they don't do that, so two times, three times,
Speaker 5: there's got to be a point where you go, Okay,
Speaker 5: we've had this conversation. You said you'd let me know,
Speaker 5: and so I'm now not making food for you, like
Speaker 5: your food's in the fridge, eating whenever you want to,
Speaker 5: I'm eating without you. Now. As much as that may
Speaker 5: sound punishing, there's a reality that if you have a
Speaker 5: boundary and it continues to be crossed, you have to
Speaker 5: come up with what that consequence will be for you.
Speaker 5: So especially and with the cheating as well, it's like
Speaker 5: there has to be something. Either we get into therapy together,
Speaker 5: you get in therapy alone, you move out until you
Speaker 5: get it together and we can decide whether you want to.
Speaker 5: So there's got to be something because if not, what
Speaker 5: is the thing that motivates human behavior? I hate to
Speaker 5: say it, but it's pain, right, And if there's no
Speaker 5: cost except you being mad for a period of time,
Speaker 5: it's not likely that someone's behavior is going to change.
Speaker 1: No grey standard behavior, isn't it? Human and animal response?
Speaker 1: We live and thrive off positive and negative reinforcement, and
Speaker 1: that is how we learn. It's how you train a dog, right,
Speaker 1: they do the right thing, You give them a reward,
Speaker 1: you give them their food. They don't you put them outside,
Speaker 1: they're cold and they don't have their food. This is
Speaker 1: how they learn and humans. I don't think humans are
Speaker 1: any different.
Speaker 2: I like, yeah, anytime my husbands naughty, I with no clothes,
Speaker 2: lead and no food.
Speaker 6: What do you do you think?
Speaker 1: You set boundaries the same way in relationships, friendships and
Speaker 1: work relationships. So are all relationships grouped into the same
Speaker 1: boundaries setting category or do you have to take a
Speaker 1: different tactic?
Speaker 5: Definitely take a different tactic because think about it. The
Speaker 5: real thing with work is that if there is a
Speaker 5: power differential, that has to be considered because you're not
Speaker 5: gonna draw the same type of boundary with your boss.
Speaker 5: I think you have to be proactive and calculating with
Speaker 5: the boundaries that you set at work with people who
Speaker 5: have power over you. So you have to take that
Speaker 5: in consideration. People will write me notes and be like,
Speaker 5: how do I tell my boss how I feel about
Speaker 5: blah blah blah. I'm like, ps, you don't because it's
Speaker 5: not even appropriate and he doesn't give a shit how
Speaker 5: you feel. But how can we get proactive and still
Speaker 5: get your need? Meant? You don't need to be understood
Speaker 5: by your boss, you know what I mean. But if
Speaker 5: your boss is stepping over a boundary and calling you
Speaker 5: on the weekends and expecting you to work and you're
Speaker 5: not being paid for that work on weekends or whatever,
Speaker 5: we need to get the data. When it comes to
Speaker 5: work boundaries, it's all about what is the data, what
Speaker 5: is the problem, what is the issue? What is the
Speaker 5: boundary that's needed? And then you look and see how
Speaker 5: is the company laid out? Does it make the most
Speaker 5: sense to go to human resources? Because it depends on
Speaker 5: is your boss like a normal person or are they
Speaker 5: like a rage of narcissist and they're going to take
Speaker 5: it out on you and find a way to fire you.
Speaker 5: So I think we really do have to take into
Speaker 5: consideration who has power over us, which is very different
Speaker 5: than a coworker or very different than your friends, where
Speaker 5: you have equal power. You can make a simple request
Speaker 5: about some of their behavior and ask them to change something,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I find this really interesting because I would assume that
Speaker 2: people who are codependent, who probably struggle with boundaries, already
Speaker 2: struggle with the different type of relationship within a workplace
Speaker 2: in terms of they may cross over the boundaries or
Speaker 2: what's an appropriate relationship with a boss or with colleagues,
Speaker 2: and so therefore their personal life and their work life
Speaker 2: has become this muddled mess, and so they feel entitled
Speaker 2: to have conversations that may not be like you know,
Speaker 2: as you say, your boss doesn't. Of course they care
Speaker 2: in some way, but like it's not their responsibility to
Speaker 2: sit down and deeply care about the way you feel
Speaker 2: and all of the intricacies around your experience. They want
Speaker 2: it to be a good culture in the workplace. They
Speaker 2: want you to be able to be efficient, get your
Speaker 2: work done. But I think sometimes we by our actions
Speaker 2: muddle those relationships and so then it becomes very conflated.
Speaker 5: Without a doubt, and that's bad for everyone. Yeah, it's
Speaker 5: bad for you. It's bad for your productivity, but it's
Speaker 5: so bad for your internal life. You don't want everyone
Speaker 5: knowing your business, right, it can impact what happens to
Speaker 5: you at work, whether you get a promotion or not.
Speaker 5: They're like, well, your husband's doing great. You don't need it,
Speaker 5: Like you don't know. Like my feeling is, keep work
Speaker 5: at work, keep your personal relationships personal, and be as
Speaker 5: professional as possible at work because that's what's appropriated. It
Speaker 5: doesn't mean you can't be friendly, right, we can be friendly,
Speaker 5: but though you have enough friends, like do we need
Speaker 5: to become friends and the people we work with.
Speaker 2: I learned this lesson the hard way, and I mean
Speaker 2: for everyone who's listening probably knows. But I have another business,
Speaker 2: which is Tony May. I'm a jority designer. We have
Speaker 2: employee staff, and I used to be best friends with
Speaker 2: all my staff, Like I would become such close friends
Speaker 2: and like we would all go out together, we would
Speaker 2: all do things together. And it made it incredibly hard
Speaker 2: for me as a business owner. As the boss of
Speaker 2: them when they had done something that was not right,
Speaker 2: where they had broken the boundaries of work, or they
Speaker 2: just weren't showing up to work in a way that
Speaker 2: was in any way productive, and I was still having
Speaker 2: to pay them. It made it impossible for me to
Speaker 2: have a conversation with them about it, and.
Speaker 6: Especially because on top of that, you're a people Please.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because and I hated it.
Speaker 2: It was honestly, it caused me so much internal conflict
Speaker 2: for many years. And now I'm at a point now
Speaker 2: where we have a bigger staffing, like we have the
Speaker 2: most stuff we've ever had. My sister, who works with me,
Speaker 2: kind of is that second buffer. And I'm friendly with everyone,
Speaker 2: but I'm not friends with everyone, and it's a much
Speaker 2: more professional relationship. And it has served me and my
Speaker 2: sanity and my anxiety so much better, so much better.
Speaker 5: And it also serves your employees better, yeah, one hundred percent,
Speaker 5: because they don't want the responsibility of being friends with
Speaker 5: their boss because they're unclear about what the lines are,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean? Because and I did the
Speaker 5: same in my young life as a talent agent. Oh
Speaker 5: my god, it was like, you know, everyone was under
Speaker 5: twenty five every We've represented all these young hart people
Speaker 5: like no Showmance's Romances Office forget it, Like it was
Speaker 5: just a mess and it was so hard, especially when
Speaker 5: it was people I'm supposed to be, you know, having
Speaker 5: power over where I know their entire life story. I'm
Speaker 5: too busy giving people therapy, well long before I was
Speaker 5: a therapist. It doesn't make you a good leader. And
Speaker 5: I think that what ends up happening And you're seeing
Speaker 5: this of course in your business, learn that it ends
Speaker 5: up that when you have better boundaries, especially at work,
Speaker 5: having really clear boundaries, really good onboarding policies, letting people
Speaker 5: know the best way to communicate and when when they
Speaker 5: can expect to hear back from you, Letting your employees
Speaker 5: know what you expect from them. Like it's amazing now
Speaker 5: that I run a whole company, how managing expectations with
Speaker 5: clear and clean agreements, How much more productive the company is,
Speaker 5: how much more money there is to make? How much
Speaker 5: better people feel? You know?
Speaker 3: I read something recently.
Speaker 2: Are you kind of dispatched my memory on this when
Speaker 2: you were speaking about dynamics within workplaces? But I think
Speaker 2: about this in terms of dynamics with parents. I kind
Speaker 2: of think This can happen a lot in single parent
Speaker 2: relationships like mother child relationships, especially where like you become
Speaker 2: best friends with your children, like my child is my
Speaker 2: best friend. I can only imagine that that is quite
Speaker 2: an enormous load for a child to carry to be
Speaker 2: a parent's best friend, especially because they don't have the
Speaker 2: mental or cognitive load to be able to take on
Speaker 2: all of the burdens.
Speaker 3: Of what adult life is.
Speaker 2: Can you talk to me a little bit about that
Speaker 2: sort of like parent child dynamic and what determines a
Speaker 2: poor boundary in that sort of relationship.
Speaker 5: Yep, that's such a great point. And it's funny because
Speaker 5: I always say, if you're if you're a parent, and
Speaker 5: you're saying my daughter's my best friend, I always say,
Speaker 5: she wishes you stop saying stuff in search an albatross
Speaker 5: around her neck. And there's this responsibility that comes with that.
Speaker 5: Your kids want you to have your own friggin life.
Speaker 5: Your kids don't want to have to worry about you,
Speaker 5: and they shouldn't have to. And healthy family system, to
Speaker 5: the best of our ability, it is child focused, not
Speaker 5: child obsessed, right, So clarification child focused in an appropriate way.
Speaker 5: A kid is going through school they're playing a sport,
Speaker 5: you're taking them to that sport or to dancing, and
Speaker 5: you're going to see them, and you're coordinating their doctors,
Speaker 5: and they're going to their birthday parties. And child focused
Speaker 5: not parent focused. So when it's parent focused because the
Speaker 5: parent either has an addiction issue or as a single
Speaker 5: parent is overwhelmed as exhausted as whatever, that puts the
Speaker 5: burden on the kid. So what are healthy boundaries. Children
Speaker 5: shouldn't be worried about the electricity bill, right, A nine
Speaker 5: year old shouldn't know that you're running out of cash
Speaker 5: like it's a burden, because there's also nothing that a
Speaker 5: nine year old can do to change that. Right. These
Speaker 5: are adult problems that need adult solutions. Talking to a
Speaker 5: child about your love life, talking to your child about
Speaker 5: the other parent, whether you're together or not, all of
Speaker 5: these things are nos. Do not do this. Do not
Speaker 5: triangulate your kid, especially if you're separated or divorced. Let
Speaker 5: your child love the other parent, please, because they need to.
Speaker 5: And if they feel that split loyalty, my God, that
Speaker 5: reverberates throughout the rest of their lives. Talk about codependency,
Speaker 5: talk about dialing into someone's feelings, talk about the kid
Speaker 5: being in what we call therapeutically a double bind, meaning
Speaker 5: you're just screwed. Either way, you're screwed. If you love
Speaker 5: your mother, then your father feels bad. If you love
Speaker 5: your father, your mother feels bad. Like bad mouthing, bad
Speaker 5: mouthing the other person. Never do that to your kid,
Speaker 5: even if the other person is a total asshole. Even
Speaker 5: if your co parent is a psycho, which they may be,
Speaker 5: and I'm sorry if that's your situation, do not talk
Speaker 5: about them in that way. Do the best that you
Speaker 5: can to protect your kid from that. But you can't
Speaker 5: put that on a child. So I think, really it's
Speaker 5: always being the grown up. Like when you're the grown up,
Speaker 5: it's you, and that means you can't need your child's approval.
Speaker 5: That means you've got to stop saying to a three
Speaker 5: year old, is it okay? I mommy? Whatever, it's okay
Speaker 5: because the kid is three.
Speaker 6: Well, how you doing it?
Speaker 5: Don't ask them if it's okay. Stop giving them so
Speaker 5: many choices. They don't need forty four choices for lunch.
Speaker 5: Let them choose between peanut butter and jelly and grill
Speaker 5: trees like there's age appropriate decision making, and I'm all
Speaker 5: for that right we learn as we grow, but I
Speaker 5: feel like with a lot of parents, there's so much
Speaker 5: anything you want or everything you want or what can
Speaker 5: I do? Oh, I'm like a short order cook where
Speaker 5: my friend says, you know, I do four different meals
Speaker 5: every night for everyone. I'm like, why, Like for whose benefit?
Speaker 5: That makes you feel needed? And it shows them that
Speaker 5: the world is going to give a shit about their
Speaker 5: every desire, which it does not and will not. Like
Speaker 5: it's too much instant gratification. I feel like.
Speaker 2: Being so many romanticized TV shows that highlight this beautiful
Speaker 2: friendship that happens between mother and daughter, and I know
Speaker 2: that you can have that, but I'm guessing it is
Speaker 2: over an appropriate age.
Speaker 5: But there's a way to do that without impinging on
Speaker 5: their independence. There's a way to just tell the truth. Hey,
Speaker 5: when you're becoming sexual, let's I'll take you to the gynecologists.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about that. We don't or we don't have
Speaker 5: to massively talk about it, but I will bring you
Speaker 5: to the right doctor. Because here's what happens in teenage land.
Speaker 5: We need to separate and individuate. And if you have
Speaker 5: a mom who's a best friend who you can't get
Speaker 5: mad at, who you're not allowed to reject in some
Speaker 5: way because we're besties. It complicates this process that we
Speaker 5: kind of have to go through. I mean, and not everyone.
Speaker 5: I don't feel like I really did as a teenager myself.
Speaker 5: I was too busy because my sisters were all bad,
Speaker 5: so I was. But it's like I couldn't differentiate, I
Speaker 5: couldn't act out because they'd already done it all taken
Speaker 5: that sway exactly. But you know what I mean. A
Speaker 5: daughter needs to step out, which is why you need
Speaker 5: to have rules. You need to have boundaries when you're parenting.
Speaker 5: They need to have a curfew because they need to
Speaker 5: step outside of that curfew. So if you don't have boundaries,
Speaker 5: now they got to step that much further out to
Speaker 5: differentiate to get your attention. So it's not personal to
Speaker 5: you give them a curfew. They're gonna come home late sometime,
Speaker 5: and then you're going to be like, and now you
Speaker 5: can go out on Saturday. Like appropriate punishment, right appropriate.
Speaker 5: You're putting limits on what they're doing, but you're showing
Speaker 5: them consequences. We're teaching them deductive reasoning, critical thinking skills.
Speaker 5: This is our job as parents, And if you need
Speaker 5: that adelation or that adoration or that friendship from your kid,
Speaker 5: it's the wrong place to get it, because sometimes your
Speaker 5: kid is going to be like, I can't stand you,
Speaker 5: I hate you, You're so mean. Let them you can
Speaker 5: say I. I remember one time our youngest son said
Speaker 5: to my husband we were dripping him off at therapy.
Speaker 5: He was acting out as being so bad at that point,
Speaker 5: and he got out of the car. He was like fifteen,
Speaker 5: and he was like, I loathe you, he said to
Speaker 5: my husband as he's leaving, And my husband said, I
Speaker 5: love you too, son, And he was like, I said, great, you.
Speaker 6: Sk the term like low do you do what?
Speaker 3: Though?
Speaker 2: I love the way you just described that, because I
Speaker 2: don't think I've ever in my life thought about and
Speaker 2: like going back to the specific example of a curfew,
Speaker 2: I would only have ever seen the consequence as a punishment.
Speaker 2: I would have only ever seen like I'm being punished.
Speaker 2: But I do really enjoy this reframe of like this
Speaker 2: is me teaching you and setting up the rules of
Speaker 2: which that there are consequences when things don't happen, because like,
Speaker 2: it's not about punishing your kids for doing the wrong thing.
Speaker 2: But it's about setting that expectation of how you want
Speaker 2: them to treat you and the rules of which they
Speaker 2: have to abide to to live within a house, especially
Speaker 2: as teenagers.
Speaker 1: Would almost lets to manage their own life. You can
Speaker 1: go out on Friday night, you have to home at eleven.
Speaker 1: If you want to stay out later, great, but you
Speaker 1: won't go out next week. Like, let them have the
Speaker 1: autonomy to make that decision of is that extra hour
Speaker 1: worth not going out.
Speaker 2: I have this constant conversation with my partner and I'm like,
Speaker 2: how do we build resilience in kids that are genuinely lucky?
Speaker 2: Like I can very much look at our kids and
Speaker 2: say they are privileged, they are lucky, and they are
Speaker 2: growing up in a household an environment where they're not
Speaker 2: short on love and they're not short on the things
Speaker 2: that they need in life.
Speaker 3: So how do you build that? How do you make
Speaker 3: sure that they're not just entitled little brats that.
Speaker 5: Make them work, don't give them everything, don't apply them
Speaker 5: with all these material things, like make them work for things,
Speaker 5: don't be the answer to everything. How about ask your
Speaker 5: kids expansive questions the moment they have a problem don't
Speaker 5: get into fix it mode, say hey, what do you
Speaker 5: think you should do? What does your guts say? Because
Speaker 5: you have a good gut, I trust it, So what
Speaker 5: is your guts? Like, we're building their ability to trust themselves.
Speaker 5: And if they don't know, that's okay. But part of
Speaker 5: it is we have to teach them to problem solve,
Speaker 5: and we do that through conversation. Now freaking out like
Speaker 5: they do something bad. Let's say they fail a test
Speaker 5: because they didn't study. You trying to figure it out.
Speaker 5: You have a lot of parents who are like, I'm
Speaker 5: gonna go talk to the school and tell them that
Speaker 5: you were sick and that blah blah blah, no allowing
Speaker 5: them listen, you fail because you didn't study. That is
Speaker 5: a consequence for your chosen action. If you want me
Speaker 5: to help you study the next time, I will. If
Speaker 5: you need more support, if you need a tutor because
Speaker 5: you don't understand, right, But we have to let the
Speaker 5: chips fall where they may and let kids experience some
Speaker 5: consequences for their actions and stay lovingly connected to them throughout,
Speaker 5: not in a mean way, like not sadistically right, Like
Speaker 5: we're doing it in a way of like yeah, that sucks. Okay,
Speaker 5: So we're here now and I'm here with you, but
Speaker 5: I'm not fixing it because you want them. Like, think
Speaker 5: about how resilient you became in your life. And I
Speaker 5: think about this in my life because when I was raised,
Speaker 5: people were like good luck, Like my parents. Parents had
Speaker 5: no good idea where we were at any given moments,
Speaker 5: at any end. I was going to bars at fourteen.
Speaker 5: I looked twenty four like, stuff like, how am I alive?
Speaker 5: And nothing awful happen to me? I have no idea, But.
Speaker 6: I don't remember going on my bike.
Speaker 1: Like on a Saturday morning, you'd go on the bike
Speaker 1: and they'd be like see you at five.
Speaker 6: You'd be gone for ten. They don't know where you are.
Speaker 6: There's no phone.
Speaker 2: My mom would literally say, don't come home till it's
Speaker 2: getting dark.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you imagine I would never now.
Speaker 6: Now like I do.
Speaker 2: Think it's hard though, because we're exposed to so much
Speaker 2: more of the realities of what can happen, and so
Speaker 2: the unrelenting news cycle the Netflix documentaries is about all
Speaker 2: the horrible things that happened to kids.
Speaker 3: It creates the fear in.
Speaker 2: You, and so we now are more helicopter because we're
Speaker 2: very aware of like the worst case scenario. But I
Speaker 2: think we're the first generation to be that, And so
Speaker 2: you think, well, then what's that going to do to
Speaker 2: our kids when they don't have the agency to fall down,
Speaker 2: hurt themselves and figure it out themselves because we're always
Speaker 2: there to protect that.
Speaker 1: I remember once, this is a memory that was popped
Speaker 1: into my head. I remember once that happened. Right, go
Speaker 1: on your bike, come home in ten hours and I
Speaker 1: was so far away in a quarry and I feel
Speaker 1: off broke. I broke my arm and I couldn't move
Speaker 1: or it was like completely snapped in half.
Speaker 6: And then my other brother.
Speaker 1: I had to wait for my other brother to ride
Speaker 1: by the quarry flag him down, and then he had
Speaker 1: to ride like an hour home. Then my dad had
Speaker 1: to drive into the quarry to pick me up because
Speaker 1: it's like no phone, there's no and.
Speaker 3: I mean, you're going to live, right, like you're.
Speaker 6: Going to live. And I think that is a shit
Speaker 6: that pills res doings.
Speaker 5: Yeah, where you go through hard things and you're like, okay,
Speaker 5: I guess I can do that. But another thing I
Speaker 5: wanted to say about the parenting thing with boundaries is
Speaker 5: that when we insert ourselves into the middle of someone
Speaker 5: else's problem, even our kids were really centering that problem
Speaker 5: on us. And what we really want to be doing
Speaker 5: with kids in particular, is we want to let it
Speaker 5: be centered on them. What do they think they should do,
Speaker 5: how do they feel about it? Tell me more about it,
Speaker 5: like open ended questions, and you know you'll figure it out.
Speaker 5: But don't be so afraid for your kid to fail,
Speaker 5: because they're going to be fine. We all felt right
Speaker 5: when we all broke our arms and sat there for
Speaker 5: four hours, as you just said, and somehow here you are, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Terry, thank you so much for all of your wisdom.
Speaker 2: We absolutely adore speaking to you. And I know for
Speaker 2: me there's so many moments and the things that you
Speaker 2: spoke about that I relate too deeply. And I know
Speaker 2: that for our listeners there will be people who have
Speaker 2: picked up parts of these conversations, whether it was parenting,
Speaker 2: whether it's codependency, whether it's navigating in their own relationships.
Speaker 2: I think there's been so much in this for life,
Speaker 2: literally for everybody.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you guys for having me. I do want
Speaker 5: to make one mention that I do have a workbook
Speaker 5: now that goes with the Boundary Boss book. So this
Speaker 5: actually just came out for anyone who wants a workbook.
Speaker 5: You guys wanted more scripts. That's what There's probably two
Speaker 5: thirds of that book is scripts. So people are absolutely
Speaker 5: loving it. And if you guys want to take the
Speaker 5: Boundary Quiz, just go to boundary quiz dot com.
Speaker 1: People when they want to go and have a confrontation
Speaker 1: of sorts or set their boundaries, that's the thing they say,
Speaker 1: right even with friends like how do you reckon?
Speaker 6: I say that? What do I say to him?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 1: You know, you know the message you want to get across,
Speaker 1: but people have no idea how to put it into words.
Speaker 6: So I think that's absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much, Terry,
Speaker 6: thanks for having me guess.
Speaker 2: If you've loved the episode, you can jump onto Apple
Speaker 2: Review and leave a little sneaky review, or you can
Speaker 2: subscribe to the podcast so that's always in your feed.
Speaker 4: And you know the drill, say Mumta datte dog te
Speaker 4: friends and share the love because we love that