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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now Today, I'm

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Speaker 1: the Happy Family Podcast. A conversation about, oh, what do

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Speaker 1: you do when you cannot get your teenage at a school.

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Speaker 1: They're big enough to say no and mean it, and

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Speaker 1: there's not much that you can do about it, throwing

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Speaker 1: the complexity of a You're a divergent child and it

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Speaker 1: makes things really tough. In addition, a quick chat about

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Speaker 1: what happens when the stuff going on at school around

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Speaker 1: rewards and token systems is inconsistent with what happens at home.

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Speaker 1: How can the two coexist? Will this work? Every Tuesday

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Speaker 1: on the Happy Families Podcast, I answer your questions. If

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Speaker 1: you want to know about making your relationship stronger, improving

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Speaker 1: you well being, or making your family happier, all you

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Speaker 1: have to do is submit a question. Submit questions with

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Speaker 1: the super simple system at happyfamilies dot com dot au,

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Speaker 1: or you have to define it is. Go to the homepage,

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Speaker 1: scroll down to the podcast section, press the record button

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Speaker 1: and start talking. Just like Robert, who's hitting us up

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Speaker 1: with question number one.

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Speaker 2: My son who's fourteen and recently diagnosed with ASD and

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Speaker 2: there's a question mark on PDA. He won't go to

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Speaker 2: school and won't engage in any schoolwork, even with encouragement.

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Speaker 2: Any attempt to get him to engage is met with

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Speaker 2: anger and further disengagement. All he wants to do is

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Speaker 2: game and when this is removed, it results in World

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Speaker 2: War III in the home. I have no tools to

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Speaker 2: manage this. What should I do?

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Speaker 1: Okay? Robert really appreciate the question and the thoughtfulness of

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Speaker 1: it and the challenge that you're experiencing. A couple of things.

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Speaker 1: This topic, this topic of school refusal, just keeps on

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Speaker 1: coming up. The research around this highlights really clearly that well,

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Speaker 1: if you're an educator, the expectations are high, and it's

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Speaker 1: just a tough gig to get this right, especially with

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Speaker 1: additional needs. Let's just get a couple of things clear

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Speaker 1: for people who are not familiar with all the terms ASD.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about autism spectrum disorder. Robert hasn't mentioned what

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Speaker 1: level we're talking about, but there are three levels. The

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Speaker 1: higher the level, so level one, two, and three. The

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Speaker 1: higher level, the greater the challenges, the greater the impairments

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Speaker 1: or deficits. Not a huge fan of the deficit model,

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Speaker 1: by the way, but that's the way it's currently described

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Speaker 1: a PDA pathological demand avoidance. In other words, when we

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Speaker 1: make a demand of our child, they respond with a

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Speaker 1: pathological response to avoid doing what they've been asked. I

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Speaker 1: don't like that title at all. I think that it's unhelpful,

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Speaker 1: and again, it just pathologizes everything that children are going through.

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Speaker 1: It makes it look like they are the problem. My

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Speaker 1: preferred term is persistent desire for autonomy, and what that

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Speaker 1: highlights is that some children are really really prize their

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Speaker 1: autonomy a lot more than others. All Right, so listen

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Speaker 1: to this question, Robert. Two issues. Number one, we've got

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Speaker 1: school refusal, a desire to not be there. Technically, in

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Speaker 1: the research literature, we would call it a motion based

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Speaker 1: school avoidance, which I think is a much more helpful term.

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Speaker 1: I know that there are some people out there who

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Speaker 1: call it school can't. I find that a completely unhelpful term,

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Speaker 1: and frankly, it's not an accurate reflection of what the

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Speaker 1: challenges really are. The second issue that they've highlighted is

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Speaker 1: gaming and the conflict around gaming. Because we've got this

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Speaker 1: kid who says, I don't want to go to school.

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Speaker 1: I just want to game, and if you tell me

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Speaker 1: I can't game, I'm going to spit the dummy and

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Speaker 1: create some create some noise about it. Now, the additional

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Speaker 1: challenge here is you've added the words fourteen year old

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Speaker 1: presents a major challenge. Fourteen year old boys. They're getting bigger.

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Speaker 1: They can throw their weight around. They can definitely fight harder,

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Speaker 1: even if it's only verbally and psychologically. But when they

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Speaker 1: dig their heels in, it's not like you can pick

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Speaker 1: them up the way you might have done with a

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Speaker 1: four or five year old and carry them to the car.

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Speaker 3: Like.

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Speaker 1: This is not going to work. It's just not an option.

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Speaker 1: So where do we go with this? A couple of

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Speaker 1: things to think about When it comes to how we

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Speaker 1: approach our children. The standard response is that you're supposed

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Speaker 1: to create carrots and sticks, punishments and rewards to get

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Speaker 1: that child to show up and do what you're expecting

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Speaker 1: them to do. There's this thing called applied behavior analysis

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Speaker 1: that's all about that process. I think it's tremendously unhelpful

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Speaker 1: when a fourteen year old with ASDMPDA refuses school for

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Speaker 1: video games. I don't see this as defiance. I see

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Speaker 1: it as a distress signal. Their brain is seeking comfort

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Speaker 1: in what you could only call a predictable world of

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Speaker 1: games because they're overwhelmed by the social and sensory demands

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Speaker 1: of what's happening at school and then home. Conflict just

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Speaker 1: adds fuel to the fire. Robert, I think the key

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Speaker 1: really is connection, which is the last thing that you want.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are the sorts of situations where you

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Speaker 1: start looking at your child and say, I don't really

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Speaker 1: like you. I mean, I love you because you're my child,

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Speaker 1: but you're not nice to be around, and this is

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Speaker 1: not working. And that's why I think the key has

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Speaker 1: to be connection, not controlled. Therefore, we're looking to approach

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Speaker 1: with curiosity as opposed to criticism. You might say something like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, you know what, mate, I know school

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Speaker 1: is really tough. I can see that. Let's explore what

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Speaker 1: makes it so hard and find ways that we can

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Speaker 1: make it better together. So you're validating their feelings, you're

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Speaker 1: collaborating on solutions. You're fostering a sense of safety because

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Speaker 1: beneath that resistance there's a yearning for understanding and support.

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Speaker 1: I don't care what the diagnosis is, this is a

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Speaker 1: basic human need, and children want it from their parents

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Speaker 1: more than anything at all. Want to highlight a couple

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Speaker 1: of other things here, I reckon, as you do an

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Speaker 1: exploration about what's going wrong with school or what's hard

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Speaker 1: about school, you're going to find that your son's basic

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Speaker 1: psychological needs are simply not being supported in the school environment. Now,

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Speaker 1: sometimes that is the fault of teachers or the school environment,

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Speaker 1: but often it's just the reality of life. I mean,

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Speaker 1: life is not what I would call needs supportive. So

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Speaker 1: much of the time, modern busy life with success aspirations

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Speaker 1: and achievement goals and all that kind of thing, just

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Speaker 1: so much of it is not consistent with what our

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Speaker 1: children need psychologically. That is, they need a sense of

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Speaker 1: strong relationship and belonging. They need to feel competent, and

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Speaker 1: they need a sense of control and autonomy involition in

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Speaker 1: their life. So if you've got an autistic boy who's

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Speaker 1: got PDA showing up at school, they're going to feel

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Speaker 1: incompetent in the classroom in terms of their relationships and

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Speaker 1: their academic progress. The teacher is going to be mad

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Speaker 1: at them, and peers will look at them differently. So

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Speaker 1: there's going to be relationship challenges, and ultimately there's going

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Speaker 1: to be all this control from you and from the

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Speaker 1: school to make things happen the way that the system demands,

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Speaker 1: and it's inconsistent with what your child wants. Note also

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Speaker 1: note also when it comes to neurotypical kids. So there's

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Speaker 1: a part of your brain towards the back of your brain.

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Speaker 1: It's called the cerebellum, and it's really in charge of

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Speaker 1: automating a lot of what we do. Like it has

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Speaker 1: contact with about eighty percent of the rest of the

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Speaker 1: brain in terms of taking behaviors on board, automating them,

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Speaker 1: and making it so that we don't have to think

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Speaker 1: too hard about what we're doing. We just do that. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you've got a neurodivergent child, those behaviors never really automate.

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Speaker 1: They become effortful. Now that means if they really like

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Speaker 1: the thing, even though it's effortful, they will find their

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Speaker 1: genius in it, which is wonderful, right, but quite off

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Speaker 1: because it's effortful that you just get refusal. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel good, It doesn't feel good in any way, shape

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Speaker 1: or form. So you get this situation basically where the

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Speaker 1: more effortful control is required. The more likely it is

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Speaker 1: that you're going to end up relying on carrots and

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Speaker 1: sticks to push your child into what it is that

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Speaker 1: you want them to do. But the more emotional valence

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Speaker 1: is high, the more your child is going to be

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Speaker 1: saying I really like doing this, I'm emotionally connected with it,

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Speaker 1: the more intrinsic it is. And that's what we're trying

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Speaker 1: to move towards. How do we get there? I listened

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Speaker 1: to this conversation and what I hear you saying, Robert,

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Speaker 1: is you understand that education matters. You want your son

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Speaker 1: to understand that as well. The real challenge is helping

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Speaker 1: him to move into a situation where there can be

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Speaker 1: a little less high cognitive effort and a little bit

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Speaker 1: more high emotional valance. In other words, how do we

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Speaker 1: get him moving into a place where he's intrinsically oriented

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Speaker 1: rather than extrinsically motivated school it's probably not doing it

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Speaker 1: for him at the moment. Just some quick stats on this.

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Speaker 1: In Queensland, homeschooling is jumped from thirty five hundred kids

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Speaker 1: in the state in twenty nineteen to eleven and a

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Speaker 1: half thousand in twenty twenty four. I look at the

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Speaker 1: situation where you've got this fourty year old boy, and

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Speaker 1: I just think, maybe get into year ten. If you

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Speaker 1: can't do homeschooling, at least get into your ten look

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Speaker 1: for trade schools, opportunities to zero in or find what

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Speaker 1: his genius is, and give him every opportunity around that

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Speaker 1: to facilitate it, over and above what video games are

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Speaker 1: giving him. Okay, so let's wrap this up. Ultimately, this

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Speaker 1: is a tough job. I go back to my initial statement.

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Speaker 1: Beneath the resistance, there's a yearning for understanding and support.

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Speaker 1: His brain is seeking comfort in what's predictable. You're dealing

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Speaker 1: with distress signals. When someone is distressed, they don't think clearly.

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Speaker 1: So spend time exploring, explain what you're looking for, and

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Speaker 1: then empower him to find solutions with you that can

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Speaker 1: work for both of you, because those boundaries matter and

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Speaker 1: education is important. Tough question, Good luck with it, Robert,

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Speaker 1: wish you all the best. Up next, a conversation about

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Speaker 1: what to do when approaches at school are different to

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Speaker 1: approaches at home. Okay, Question number two from Shan, Hello, my.

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Speaker 3: Two primary school children with tender school that use points

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Speaker 3: reward system every lesson every teacher is heavily promoted, and

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Speaker 3: it seems to work that the children have there's less

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Speaker 3: behavior problems, they're engaged, they're learning. I know because I've

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Speaker 3: just started working there. However, my children less cooperative at home,

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Speaker 3: and I wonder if they're not intrinsically motivated because of

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Speaker 3: the reward system at school.

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Speaker 1: What do you think you know what sean when it

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Speaker 1: comes to extrinsic motivators, punishments and rewards. The simple fact

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Speaker 1: is they work, but work to do What is the

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Speaker 1: real question, and you've zeroed in on it. It's the

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Speaker 1: type of regulation that matters. Essentially, there's no internalization, so

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Speaker 1: when the teacher is not there, the kids will usually

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Speaker 1: do whatever they want. It's just that they've understood the system.

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Speaker 1: There's a whole lot of other people who are also

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Speaker 1: doing it. The teacher has one job, which is to

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Speaker 1: maintain some level of behavioral control so that they can

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Speaker 1: teach the lesson. And that's simply the way that it

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Speaker 1: rolls out. That's why it seems like it's working now.

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Speaker 1: In the home, We've got a whole bunch of other

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Speaker 1: things that are occurring. We're dealing with things like a

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Speaker 1: difference in the relationship, the fact that kids can say

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Speaker 1: no to you and you still have to love them

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Speaker 1: and keep them in the house, and you're not going

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Speaker 1: to be able to send them to the principle or

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Speaker 1: someone else to look after them because.

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Speaker 2: You're the parent.

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Speaker 1: And I think that there are some other challenges here.

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Speaker 1: You're not going from media compliance. You're trying to build

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Speaker 1: a human rather than just develop this academic outcome in

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Speaker 1: a child. Now, I absolutely acknowledge that many teachers do

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Speaker 1: such great work on character education and building kids up.

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Speaker 1: I certainly don't want to finish the role of teacher,

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Speaker 1: but teachers and parents are different. Children know it, we

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Speaker 1: know it as adults, and when we're in the four

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Speaker 1: walls of our home, we absolutely feel it, especially when

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with the kind of stuff that you're highlighting.

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Speaker 1: They're just golden children at school and they come home

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Speaker 1: and they're tired and they're worn out, and they say

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Speaker 1: no and they refuse to do stuff, and you just

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Speaker 1: kind of think it is going on. They're so compliant

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Speaker 1: at school. I'm not happy about this, Okay, So what

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Speaker 1: do we do about it? What's the best way? Look, Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: this is a conversation about structure. At school, the structure

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Speaker 1: is usually pretty clear, it's transparent. It's often on the

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Speaker 1: white board or on the wall, on a big piece

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Speaker 1: of cardboard. And at home, structure can be a little

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Speaker 1: bit more flaky. It can be a bit more inconsistent.

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Speaker 1: There are more moving, more moving parts. No, I just

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Speaker 1: our lives change. At home. It's not the nine to three.

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Speaker 1: We're teaching lessons and then we're moving on with things.

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Speaker 1: Lots of variables in the school classroom, but there's one

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Speaker 1: clear purpose, whereas at home there's extracurricular activities. There's an

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Speaker 1: unexpected night, there's that emergency, there's having to work late,

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Speaker 1: There's all these things that throw the structure into disarray.

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Speaker 1: There's a child who has a nightmare one night and

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Speaker 1: so don't sleep well, and that means that they wake

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Speaker 1: up late the next morning, and then you've got all

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Speaker 1: the chaos that goes without So what do we do

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Speaker 1: to build structure? This is where I kind of point

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Speaker 1: to the family meetings. Kylie has been talking about family

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Speaker 1: meetings a lot on our I'll Do Better Tomorrow episodes

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Speaker 1: of the podcast, and the reason that we share this

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Speaker 1: so much is because it works. Does it work perfectly

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Speaker 1: first go And of course not everything in family life

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Speaker 1: is a process and a refining of the system, but

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Speaker 1: it does the job of getting the system refined. So

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Speaker 1: what I'm pointing you towards is to sit down on

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Speaker 1: the Sunday with the kids, pull out a couple of treats,

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Speaker 1: and spend ten or fifteen minutes saying, Hey, what's working,

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Speaker 1: what's not, and what can we improve on this week?

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Speaker 1: What went well, what didn't, and what can we pick

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Speaker 1: on to make better? Not who what can we pick

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Speaker 1: on to make better this week? Sometimes you pick stuff

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Speaker 1: that's going well because you want to do more of it.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you pick things that aren't going so well because

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Speaker 1: you want to improve in those areas. Encourage your kids

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Speaker 1: to have a voice, provide really clear rationals when you're

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Speaker 1: explaining this is what we want and this is why,

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Speaker 1: and develop solutions together. Ultimately, in spite of the disparity

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Speaker 1: between what happens at school and what happens at home,

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Speaker 1: the kids will be okay. The influence that you have

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Speaker 1: is vastly greater than anything that's going to happen in

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Speaker 1: a school classroom. In spite of the fact that there

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Speaker 1: are so many hours spent with that teacher and with

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Speaker 1: those peers. What you do at home, the example that

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Speaker 1: you set, and the conversations that you have, that's what

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Speaker 1: sets your kids up to figure out how life is

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Speaker 1: done and how to build character. Sean, I hope that's

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Speaker 1: a helpful response. Might not have been the ancy we

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Speaker 1: were looking for, but it really comes down to conversations,

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Speaker 1: and those family meetings I think are the best vehicle

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Speaker 1: for those conversations. Good luck next week. More questions on

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast to help you to make your

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Speaker 1: family happier, to get your relationships stronger, and to help

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Speaker 1: you to improve your well being. If you'd like to

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Speaker 1: submit a question, please visit happyfamilies dot com dot au.

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Speaker 1: That's where you find our super simple system where you

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Speaker 1: literally press the record button, start talking, love answering your

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Speaker 1: questions Happy families dot com dot Au. The super simple

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Speaker 1: system Just press record and start talking in the podcast

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Speaker 1: section of the homepage. The Happy Families podcast is produced

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Speaker 1: by Justin Rulon from Bridge Media. If you would like

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Speaker 1: more information about how to make your family happier, visit

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Speaker 1: us at Happy families dot com dot Au and subscribe

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Speaker 1: to our newsletter. It comes out once a week and

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Speaker 1: it gives you the very best advice with no big sells,

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Speaker 1: just evidence based ways that you can build a happier family.

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Speaker 1: Happy Families dot com dot au