Speaker 1: When you're walking through the supermarket, you'll see many familiar
Speaker 1: brands like Lipton, Dove, Continental, Resona, Ben and Jerry's. And
Speaker 1: at first you might think that they have much in common,
Speaker 1: but actually all of those well known brands are all
Speaker 1: owned by Unilever. I'm talking about a global megastar company
Speaker 1: responsible for four hundred brands in one hundred and ninety countries.
Speaker 1: And Nicki Sparshot is CEO of Unilever Australia and New Zealand.
Speaker 1: And she's also the global CEO of the super premium
Speaker 1: tea brand T two. So it's safe to say she's
Speaker 1: someone who has a lot on her plate. So how
Speaker 1: does Nicki set goals for herself and her businesses but
Speaker 1: also planned for the unexpected?
Speaker 2: And how does she get to switch.
Speaker 1: Off when there are so many priorities competing for her attention?
Speaker 1: And I was also keen to find out what Unilever
Speaker 1: has learned from introducing a four day work week and
Speaker 1: it's New Zealand office. I'm doctor Amatha Immer. I'm an
Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium.
Speaker 1: And this is how I work a show about how
Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. Now, one CEO
Speaker 1: role is probably plenty for most people, but NICKI has two.
Speaker 1: So how does NICKI manage to do two CEO roles
Speaker 1: at the same time.
Speaker 3: It's definitely been an experience to have both gigs, but
Speaker 3: I have to say it's also been one that has
Speaker 3: been super fun for me and really complementary. So basically,
Speaker 3: we've got on one side, the Union lead of business.
Speaker 3: This is like a fast moving consumer goods company, and
Speaker 3: I look after the Australian and New Zealand division of that.
Speaker 3: And then we've got T two, which is on a
Speaker 3: global scale and it's much more a direct to consumer
Speaker 3: bricks and mortar and e commerce, luxury gifting and tea business.
Speaker 3: And they're so different. So what I find is it's
Speaker 3: actually my own very simple way of getting outside in perspective,
Speaker 3: because I can take best practice that sits in one
Speaker 3: organization and take it into the other. And likewise, when
Speaker 3: we have challenges in one business, we can almost preemptively
Speaker 3: navigate for them in another. So I've really enjoyed the
Speaker 3: fact that they're two such different business models, but that
Speaker 3: transferable learning between one into the other has been so
Speaker 3: invaluable and the talent, the great people, and the capability
Speaker 3: that we have sitting in the respective businesses is also different.
Speaker 3: But we can benefit from that difference in a really
Speaker 3: remarkable way. So, yes, it's been it's kept me out
Speaker 3: of trouble, but it's been also incredibly enjoyable to do.
Speaker 1: And how then do you think about your time and
Speaker 1: how you're dedicating time to the two different businesses in
Speaker 1: a given week or a given month.
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it's a good question. I think I singlehandedly
Speaker 3: keep post it note in operation because I kind of
Speaker 3: run a little bit of my life on analog in
Speaker 3: many ways. But I do use the post it notes
Speaker 3: to kind of keep my priorities really very much in check. So,
Speaker 3: you know, I would have a quarterly priority list, like
Speaker 3: what are the things that are you know, if I
Speaker 3: get these done in the next twelve weeks, will deliver
Speaker 3: eighty percent of the value that I can deliver for
Speaker 3: the organization, you know, notwithstanding things that are throwing your
Speaker 3: way that you haven't planned for. And then I translate
Speaker 3: that into a monthly to do, into a weekly to
Speaker 3: do list, and into a daily to do list, and
Speaker 3: I take great satisfaction crossing it off in a pen
Speaker 3: at the end of the day. But that's actually been
Speaker 3: pretty important ritual for me because it helps me to
Speaker 3: look across both the businesses and really determine where can
Speaker 3: I focus my energy and my time most over the
Speaker 3: next little while to create the most impact of both organizations.
Speaker 3: And then I also make sure that in any week,
Speaker 3: I allocate deep work time. So I just carve out
Speaker 3: four hours where I don't schedule any meetings, I don't
Speaker 3: plan to do any phone calls. I just give myself
Speaker 3: the space to think about strategy, to think about people,
Speaker 3: to think about culture, new business opportunities, but that real
Speaker 3: moment to just reflect on the businesses and take a
Speaker 3: sort of aerial view, because it's I think it's really
Speaker 3: important to get thirty thousand feet in the air and
Speaker 3: equally at times be deep in the weeds. But to
Speaker 3: move between both of those vantage points I think is
Speaker 3: really important it for any any leader in any role.
Speaker 1: I want to dig deeper into a few of those things.
Speaker 1: So I want to understand your quarterly planning process. And
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this is a stupid question, but
Speaker 1: how do you know what you should be prioritizing in
Speaker 1: a quarter?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a really good question, and I think, well,
Speaker 3: for both of our businesses, we have our you know,
Speaker 3: three year let's call it our three year strategy. It's
Speaker 3: a bit of our north star. It gives us the
Speaker 3: why we're doing what we're doing. It helps us to
Speaker 3: articulate the strategic priorities, maybe the what that's going to
Speaker 3: get us there, and above all, it is a really
Speaker 3: strong foundation for the values on how we show up.
Speaker 3: So it's the it's the how, let's say, and that's
Speaker 3: sort of done on a three year horizon. It's a
Speaker 3: very simple document. I have a really big belief that
Speaker 3: there's sophistication in simplicity. So it's a one page document
Speaker 3: and by and large, you hope that that doesn't change
Speaker 3: so much over a three year period. Certainly where you
Speaker 3: focus your energy and some of the curve balls and
Speaker 3: the changing market dynamics may determine where you dull things
Speaker 3: up or dull things down. But that comes a little
Speaker 3: bit of our compass, so to speak, our strategic comforts,
Speaker 3: and then we convert that into an annual plan. So
Speaker 3: for each of the businesses, we sort of look at, well,
Speaker 3: the next twelve month horizon, where what does good look
Speaker 3: like and how we're going to get there, and then
Speaker 3: I use that as the base to chuck down my
Speaker 3: year a little bit more by quarter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now I want to know an example, like, what's
Speaker 1: an example of a quarterly goal that you would set
Speaker 1: for yourself.
Speaker 3: So while we would have quarterly financial targets that we
Speaker 3: would set ourselves, we would have and they would become
Speaker 3: critical measures for the whole organization to be rallying around.
Speaker 3: I might look at one of those and say, well,
Speaker 3: for us, for me specifically, this month, I'm going to
Speaker 3: focus our energies on the cash target that we might
Speaker 3: have for the business and what can we do to
Speaker 3: really influence that. And it could be around inventory management,
Speaker 3: could be around working cap or it could be around
Speaker 3: different leavers. But there are some things that there are
Speaker 3: plenty of things that I could spend my time on,
Speaker 3: and I am so grateful because I have many, many
Speaker 3: people in both businesses that are a lot smarter than
Speaker 3: I am who can take on these jobs and deliver
Speaker 3: them much more effectively that I can do. And then
Speaker 3: there are other areas where I think maybe I have
Speaker 3: a little bit of a superpower that I can bring
Speaker 3: to the table, and when I focus my energy on
Speaker 3: those things, then I can create some value for the organization.
Speaker 1: So how do you then go about breaking that down
Speaker 1: into monthly and weekly?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Is that something that you do at the beginning of
Speaker 1: the month or at the quarter?
Speaker 2: Like the start of the quarter? Is that when you
Speaker 2: break everything down?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I sit down at just the end of every
Speaker 3: month and just take a a bit of time for
Speaker 3: myself and just go how do I convert that into
Speaker 3: a monthly to do with? If you think about it
Speaker 3: like a backlog all of the things that I need
Speaker 3: to get done, and then I'll have a look at
Speaker 3: that and think, well, what are the things that I'm
Speaker 3: going to pull off the backlog and put on a
Speaker 3: to do list that I now actively work on. And
Speaker 3: I'll do that on a monthly basis, And then at
Speaker 3: the you know, on a Sunday night, just before I
Speaker 3: kind of kick off a new week, I'll sit down
Speaker 3: with a cup of tea, maybe a glass of wine,
Speaker 3: and we'll just map out, you know, what that looks
Speaker 3: like for the weak ahead and how I'll lokape my time.
Speaker 2: I'm loving how methodical this all is.
Speaker 1: Can I ask do you have any daily rituals around
Speaker 1: planning or reflection.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do. So I get up. I get up early.
Speaker 3: This is going to sound ungodly, but I need to
Speaker 3: do it because it's the only time that I can
Speaker 3: get that quality meantime. But you know, I'll set my
Speaker 3: alarm for four forty five.
Speaker 2: That's ungodly, Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3: A little bit. And at least every second day I'll
Speaker 3: go do some exercise. So I'll go to the gym,
Speaker 3: or I'll go for a really long walk or something
Speaker 3: like that. But I do have to just get some
Speaker 3: exercise into my day. And I just know that if
Speaker 3: I don't do in the morning, it's just it's not
Speaker 3: going to happen. So I'm just really conscious around my
Speaker 3: own kind of disciplines and rituals that but that gives
Speaker 3: me some really good time to just think. And then
Speaker 3: when I come home, I will make myself, you know,
Speaker 3: a coppa, and then I'll write my to doers for
Speaker 3: the day. So just check to see what the meetings
Speaker 3: are that already in my diary, and what are the
Speaker 3: things that I need to get done, and I'll just
Speaker 3: wrap that on a post it note and I'll go
Speaker 3: onto the front of my journal. I write everything down
Speaker 3: because the way I remember things is to kind of
Speaker 3: put them on paper and what throw paper. Somehow they're
Speaker 3: magically ingrained in my head. But that helps me to
Speaker 3: then prioritize for the day. So that's my little morning ritual.
Speaker 2: Do you have an end of day richual at all?
Speaker 3: Ah? You know, I'm really fortunate at the moment that
Speaker 3: I'm in a role that doesn't require as much travel
Speaker 3: as some of the previous roles that I have done,
Speaker 3: and so the last particularly in the last eighteen months,
Speaker 3: we've been able to have dinner as a family almost
Speaker 3: every night, and that's something I really try to protect.
Speaker 3: So you try to get even if it's twenty minutes
Speaker 3: in the morning for breakfast together before everyone goes off
Speaker 3: doing their own thing, and then even if it's just
Speaker 3: forty minutes at night, to reflect on the day that
Speaker 3: we've each had and just spend some quality time together.
Speaker 3: That is I would say that is my evening ritual.
Speaker 3: And quite often after that I need to get back
Speaker 3: on two meetings and calls just because of my colleagues
Speaker 3: that I have that are in the US or in
Speaker 3: the UK, and so making time zones works sometimes means
Speaker 3: that I have to do that, But that's okay because
Speaker 3: I've actually given myself the gift of having my time
Speaker 3: with my husband and my two kids, which is really
Speaker 3: important to me. That gives me energy.
Speaker 2: Now you've mentioned that you deliberately leave.
Speaker 1: Time for or reactive work in amongst looking at your
Speaker 1: quarterly priorities, Like, how are you doing that in practice?
Speaker 1: Like do you have buffer time in your diary? Like
Speaker 1: what does that look like?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I literally have like my deep work is coded
Speaker 3: in yellow. That's my favorite color, and you know that's
Speaker 3: so that's like kind of maybe my favorite time. And
Speaker 3: then I've got Yeah, it literally says do not book meetings,
Speaker 3: and it might be colored in you know, orange, and
Speaker 3: I know that that time's then available. But you know what,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of freedom in it as well, because Anna,
Speaker 3: who works with me and she helps me manage my daring,
Speaker 3: does it really well. Yeah. She can then call me
Speaker 3: and say, Henny, can know you said no meetings here,
Speaker 3: but this has come up? Is this more important or not?
Speaker 3: And that's so helpful because then I can just take
Speaker 3: an informed decision about, you know, whether I give up
Speaker 3: that space or actually whether or not I need it
Speaker 3: for something else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really fascinated with this.
Speaker 1: I need more details, nikis so would every day of
Speaker 1: your week, because I know you have your specific deep
Speaker 1: work time which I do want to get into. But
Speaker 1: with all the other days, would I be seeing a
Speaker 1: chunk blocked out in your diary in orange that says
Speaker 1: do not book like?
Speaker 2: Is that a daily occurrence?
Speaker 3: If I can get it every day, then I will
Speaker 3: do it every day. And to be honest, some days
Speaker 3: of train wrecks. You know, if you would some days
Speaker 3: in my diary and it would look awful, it would
Speaker 3: look awful from seven thirty in the morning till eleven
Speaker 3: thirty at night because it just happened to be one
Speaker 3: of those days where there's you know, late night meetings
Speaker 3: with our global teams, and that I just suck those up.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: If every single day was like that, it'd be really difficult.
Speaker 3: But the nature of the job is such that there
Speaker 3: needs to be a certain degree of flexibility. And you
Speaker 3: know what, I'm fine with that because it means that
Speaker 3: when there's something on at the kids' school and they've
Speaker 3: gone exhibition, and I think, gosh, I am going to
Speaker 3: out and go and go and see that, and it
Speaker 3: might be three o'clock in the afternoon, but that's okay
Speaker 3: because then I'll come back home and I will work
Speaker 3: later on to the evening. I feel that that, to
Speaker 3: me is a version of work life balance. Right. I've
Speaker 3: been able to make the choices that are right for
Speaker 3: me and my family and still give what I need
Speaker 3: to do to the job. And so there's an enormous
Speaker 3: amount of freedom in that for me.
Speaker 2: Now, deep work.
Speaker 1: I know you take deep work seriously, and you're referring
Speaker 1: to kind of having that thirty thousand feet view from
Speaker 1: the air of what's going on.
Speaker 2: Tell me about your deep work routine or ritual.
Speaker 3: I think that the first thing that I love about
Speaker 3: it is that I'm not I'm not in a meeting,
Speaker 3: and I get a bucket boat of energy from being
Speaker 3: with other people. So this is not necessarily about the
Speaker 3: need to be on my own, but it gives me
Speaker 3: the space to have a bucket time that I can
Speaker 3: now choose what I'm going to do with. And so
Speaker 3: I think just the very act of not having to
Speaker 3: be on a screen, not having to be in a conversation,
Speaker 3: just allows me some space to go through just actions
Speaker 3: that require some thought. And you know, I can at
Speaker 3: times get into a habit of feeling like when you
Speaker 3: take action, you've got momentum. But what I've learned the
Speaker 3: longer I've kind of been in their career is that actually,
Speaker 3: sometimes the moments of greatest impact of the times when
Speaker 3: you don't feel the need to act, but you just
Speaker 3: give yourself the space to think. And I'm getting better
Speaker 3: at that. You know, when I, on occasion receive an
Speaker 3: email that sets my love boiling, Whereas my inclination may
Speaker 3: have been to respond, I now sit with it just
Speaker 3: that little bit longer than I normally would have, and
Speaker 3: I I think nine times out of ten, my response
Speaker 3: is different to what it would have been had I
Speaker 3: just allowed myself to react instinctively. So that's what I
Speaker 3: love about that deep work time. I just have that
Speaker 3: opportunity to give myself the space to think about things
Speaker 3: without the rush, without the chaos, without the noise of
Speaker 3: the daily operation.
Speaker 1: Will you have particular things that you bring into that
Speaker 1: deep work time that you're like, Okay, I want to
Speaker 1: think about this particular goal or this particular project.
Speaker 2: Like how planned is that deep work time?
Speaker 3: It varies depending on what I need to do. So
Speaker 3: let's say it's a bit of work on the organization
Speaker 3: and people. Then I might actually use some post it
Speaker 3: notes and stick them up on the wall and you know,
Speaker 3: have a little bit of my own mini workshop on
Speaker 3: my own that's really valuable. Occasionally I will call other people.
Speaker 3: I will do a sort of dialar friend, because that
Speaker 3: is the time I actually want to get some outside
Speaker 3: in perspective. So sometimes I use that deep work time
Speaker 3: actually to connect with the people in other companies quite often,
Speaker 3: sometimes in other industries. Quite often that can give me
Speaker 3: a different way of looking perhaps at the problem. All
Speaker 3: the opportunity that I have.
Speaker 1: That idea of like the kind of phone a friend.
Speaker 1: I like that, Like how do you think about your
Speaker 1: networks in that sense? And who you'll call for what?
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I think actually, you know, people will say
Speaker 3: how important is to have a network and to do
Speaker 3: networking and all that sort of stuff, And I think, actually,
Speaker 3: just at the heart of it is two you can
Speaker 3: either feel incredibly resource constrained at times, or you can
Speaker 3: realize that there's an incredible amount of resource abundance if
Speaker 3: you just reach out and generously share your knowledge. And equally,
Speaker 3: you'll find that people are very, very generous in sharing this.
Speaker 3: That's been my experience at least, so sometimes the people
Speaker 3: that I have in my network, I like it to
Speaker 3: be varied, like I'm a really big believer in the
Speaker 3: businesses I lead or the teams that I'm part of,
Speaker 3: and I also would put this in my own kind
Speaker 3: of personal social kind of circle. I like diversity of perspective.
Speaker 3: I like to be able to connect with people that
Speaker 3: can offer alternative ways of thinking about things, because they
Speaker 3: just give you a very creative lens.
Speaker 1: I like what you said about I guess sharing with
Speaker 1: an abundance mindset or giving with that kind of mindset.
Speaker 1: I would imagine that you're someone given your position, you
Speaker 1: would have a lot of people reaching out to you
Speaker 1: for advice or guidance or to speak at this event
Speaker 1: or that. How do you balance having that abundance mindset
Speaker 1: and wanting to share generously with just the realities of
Speaker 1: only having a certain amount of hours in the day.
Speaker 3: I do have to say no at times. Alternatively, I'm
Speaker 3: also quite good at saying yes, but yes, but I
Speaker 3: won't be able to do it for another six months. Yes,
Speaker 3: but I'll only be able to give you twenty minutes
Speaker 3: and my time at this stage. Does that work for you? Yes,
Speaker 3: I would love to be able to participate, but I
Speaker 3: can't be there in person. Could I drop you an
Speaker 3: email with my thoughts? I think you know, sometimes it's
Speaker 3: about finding ways that allow you to share, even just
Speaker 3: a little, but in a way that's reflective also of
Speaker 3: the time that they have.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with Nikki in a moment talking about
Speaker 1: how her four day week experiment has gone in New
Speaker 1: Zealand where staff only work four days a week but
Speaker 1: they get paid for five. And if you're not connected
Speaker 1: with me on the socials, why not? So I would
Speaker 1: love to connect with you as a listener of the show.
Speaker 1: You can find me on LinkedIn just search for Amantha
Speaker 1: Imba and on Twitter I'm at Amantha and on Instagram
Speaker 1: I'm at Amantha I and drop me a note saying
Speaker 1: that this is how you found me. Now, something that
Speaker 1: Unilever in New Zealand has made headlines for is trialing
Speaker 1: the four day week.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me about what led to the decision
Speaker 2: to try the four day week? And I will frame this.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that a lot of people listening to how
Speaker 1: I work a familiar with the concept, but in a nutshell.
Speaker 1: The four day week involves paying people their full time
Speaker 1: salary one hundred percent of their salary for having them
Speaker 1: work eighty percent of the time, but at one hundred
Speaker 1: percent performance, so achieving what you would achieve if you
Speaker 1: were working those full five days.
Speaker 2: So tell me what led to the decision to try
Speaker 2: that in New Zealand.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were a couple of a couple of things.
Speaker 3: The first one is, I think there is this huge
Speaker 3: cognition that time is probably one of the most precious
Speaker 3: commodities that we crave, and certainly whether it's in our
Speaker 3: personal life in our professional life, the idea of gosh,
Speaker 3: I wish I had a bit more time, I think
Speaker 3: is not lost on any of us, and it just
Speaker 3: got us wondering around whether or not we would be
Speaker 3: able to create an environment where people felt really actively
Speaker 3: engaged and energized being part of the Unilever community and
Speaker 3: simultaneously we could unlock productivity gains as a result of that.
Speaker 3: And so we thought, well, if we were able to
Speaker 3: give everybody a day back for them to use however
Speaker 3: they wanted, so, whether that's for further education or to exercise,
Speaker 3: or to participate in a hobby, spend time with family.
Speaker 3: It doesn't really matter, but that time of an extra day,
Speaker 3: with one of the caveats being that as a team,
Speaker 3: you no need to find out how you can unlock
Speaker 3: twenty percent of that capacity to free up that time
Speaker 3: by removing all of the non value added work and
Speaker 3: processes and bureaucracy and legacy stuff that we do that
Speaker 3: might not make sense any longer in order to be
Speaker 3: able to do that, and then in the process allowed
Speaker 3: us to be more efficient and more effective and more
Speaker 3: energized about being at work as well. So we pick
Speaker 3: the New Zealand business because it's a big union leave
Speaker 3: business for us, but it's also not so big that
Speaker 3: we can't manage it. And we really wanted to run
Speaker 3: this as a twelve month test, and we've got the
Speaker 3: University of Technology partnering with us on this actually, so
Speaker 3: we've got some independent assessors as we go through this
Speaker 3: journey so we can hold ourselves to account. But we're
Speaker 3: about six months in now and it's been really exciting
Speaker 3: to see how the New Zealand team have come together
Speaker 3: to try to take up this opportunity and how they've
Speaker 3: removed a whole lot of work that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3: And equally, how they've put in place some really good
Speaker 3: behaviors that allow us to be more efficient and more effective.
Speaker 1: Do you know, like of any examples of maybe some
Speaker 1: of the biggest changes that the New Zealand crew have
Speaker 1: made to how they approach work or meetings, or you know,
Speaker 1: processes that have been improved, or you know, like things
Speaker 1: that have been killed off. I'd love to know a
Speaker 1: couple of examples of things that have made a really
Speaker 1: big impact.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think meetings is a big one, right. We
Speaker 3: end up sort of sometimes we convince ourselves that because
Speaker 3: we're busy, we're being purposeful, and meetings can be a
Speaker 3: great way of feeling busy but not necessarily purposeful. So
Speaker 3: that's certainly been an area the team have tackled. When
Speaker 3: do you have a meeting, why do you have it,
Speaker 3: who needs to be there? How do you empower people
Speaker 3: to take decisions in the meeting without creating further meetings
Speaker 3: to validate what's been done. So I think there's been
Speaker 3: a lot of work that's been done around meeting discipline.
Speaker 3: For sure. There's been interrogation around processes, so the way
Speaker 3: we're getting things through the system and is there ways
Speaker 3: of just radically simplifying some of the internal processes that
Speaker 3: we have. They've looked at projects, so you know, inevitably
Speaker 3: there is a fine amount of time and there are
Speaker 3: plenty of things we can do, but probably only a
Speaker 3: few things that we should do at a certain point.
Speaker 3: And so the teams have really had a look at
Speaker 3: flowing resources to where most value can be created or
Speaker 3: where we can have the most impact.
Speaker 1: What's been the biggest challenge or some of the biggest
Speaker 1: challenges that the group has found from trying to squeeze
Speaker 1: five days where they work into four.
Speaker 3: And I think the therein lies the biggest watch out right,
Speaker 3: if we simply push five days of work into four,
Speaker 3: we haven't actually realized what we intended to do here,
Speaker 3: because this isn't about now stretching four days of the
Speaker 3: week so that people are now working longer hours. This
Speaker 3: is genuinely about removing twenty percent of the stuff that
Speaker 3: slows us down. It's unnecessary to give us that extra
Speaker 3: day to ourselves in the spirit of rejuvenation, energizing, getting
Speaker 3: outside in perspective, being much more on the front line.
Speaker 3: You know where our consumers are and the people that
Speaker 3: we serve rather than being sort of city behind the laptop.
Speaker 3: So the key to that is we genuinely do need
Speaker 3: to find those unlocks, otherwise we haven't actually delivered the
Speaker 3: intent of what we want to do with the four
Speaker 3: day week. The other area is, you know, one of
Speaker 3: the criteria that we did say is that for our
Speaker 3: our customers, for our suppliers, for our team members that
Speaker 3: aren't participating in the four day week with that in
Speaker 3: Australia or across the globe, they should not feel any
Speaker 3: differently about working with the team in New Zealand other
Speaker 3: than perhaps the positive impact that this should bring to
Speaker 3: the team, because we did want to make sure that
Speaker 3: we had that servant leadership or that customer service orientation
Speaker 3: at the core of what we're doing it. And that's
Speaker 3: a really easy thing to say, and that takes a
Speaker 3: little bit more time to make sure that you genuinely
Speaker 3: do have five days worth of coverage so that you
Speaker 3: are able to honor all of those commitments as well.
Speaker 3: So look, I'm really optimistic about it, and I think
Speaker 3: part of any good test is actually that constant check
Speaker 3: in and feedback loop. So as Nick and the team
Speaker 3: in New Zealand go through this process, they're almost reorientating
Speaker 3: priorities on a month by month basis as well, so
Speaker 3: that they're taking those learnings and now asking themselves or
Speaker 3: what do we doing need to do differently as a
Speaker 3: result of that.
Speaker 1: I love that distinction between sort of framing it is
Speaker 1: how do we fit five days worth of work into four,
Speaker 1: but actually going no, no, no, we actually need to
Speaker 1: change how we work and we need to stop things
Speaker 1: and kill things. It reminds me A good friend of
Speaker 1: mine is Scott Anthony, who's a bit of a global
Speaker 1: thought letter on innovation from inosit and he talks about
Speaker 1: zombie projects and the value in organizations looking for zombies,
Speaker 1: which are projects or processes or meetings or things that
Speaker 1: have been worked on that are kind of like the
Speaker 1: living dead, but no one has actually stopped to have
Speaker 1: the courage.
Speaker 2: To kill them.
Speaker 1: And like, how how do you create that environment where
Speaker 1: it is okay for people to stop doing things?
Speaker 3: You've got to kill your darlings, right. It's a really
Speaker 3: hard thing to do because in many ways, some of
Speaker 3: the things people don't want to stop, the things that
Speaker 3: they've invested time, energy and effort into up until this point,
Speaker 3: and in some instances are also sort of pet projects,
Speaker 3: but they're not really the things that are going to
Speaker 3: shift the needle. You've got to lead from the front
Speaker 3: as well. I think, you know, stop a few things
Speaker 3: in a really material way to demonstrate that you're actually
Speaker 3: prepared to stop it. You need to not allow for creep.
Speaker 3: So when you do stop things, you don't all of
Speaker 3: a sudden now you know, in a moment of panic
Speaker 3: replace it with something else, because you know you feel
Speaker 3: that that's the thing to do. Is you've sort of
Speaker 3: got to stay the course on this stuff. So much
Speaker 3: of it I think is about behavior, isn't it. It's
Speaker 3: about sort of just the choices that you make to
Speaker 3: commit to an initiative of this nature, agree the principles
Speaker 3: that are going to make it successful, and then like
Speaker 3: walk the talk. And when you do that, it gives
Speaker 3: others the permission to do the same.
Speaker 2: That's something I've heard about.
Speaker 1: Something you do is that you'll get staff to coach you,
Speaker 1: like the CEO, in things that they know more about
Speaker 1: than you do, kind of like I guess reverse mentoring.
Speaker 1: I want to say something that came from ge possibly
Speaker 1: and can you give me an example of how this works?
Speaker 1: In practice.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, totally. I'm a huge fan of it. Look
Speaker 3: at it comes down to, Oh, give you some real
Speaker 3: examples right now. So I have team members that reverse
Speaker 3: mentor me in say digital and e commerce. When I
Speaker 3: took over the T two business, we didn't have a
Speaker 3: really big e commerce platform at that point in time,
Speaker 3: but we could certainly say that e commerce was where
Speaker 3: we needed to invest our time, and we had to
Speaker 3: build the infrastructure from scratch and the supply chain that
Speaker 3: sits around it, the range everything. So we're building at
Speaker 3: bottom up now. And I can tell you that was
Speaker 3: not my wheelhouse, but I needed to learn it very
Speaker 3: very quickly. So asidne from putting together a team of
Speaker 3: people who for whom it was sort of second nature,
Speaker 3: I really wanted to make sure that I upskilled myself
Speaker 3: in this area, so in the world of e commerce
Speaker 3: and the world of digital more broadly, in part not
Speaker 3: because I need to be an expert in it, but
Speaker 3: I need to be able to ask the right questions,
Speaker 3: and that's where reverse mentoring is great. So I just
Speaker 3: had a couple of team members. I would meet with
Speaker 3: them for maybe an hour every month. We'd just pick
Speaker 3: a different topic area and I would just ask them
Speaker 3: to teach me literally, or sometimes I would come with questions.
Speaker 3: So here are a few areas that I've come up against.
Speaker 3: I'd really like to kind of get under the skin
Speaker 3: of them and understand them better, you know, show me.
Speaker 3: And quite often we do a quick pro quo so
Speaker 3: that someone will say to me with Nikki, a oh
Speaker 3: do you reverse mentoring on you know, a common digital
Speaker 3: and can you kind of help me out with strategy
Speaker 3: or financial acument or something like that, So you know,
Speaker 3: we just kind of share it, you know, you trade.
Speaker 2: That's really cool.
Speaker 1: Now I've heard that something about your style as a
Speaker 1: leader is that bringing fun and levity into the office
Speaker 1: is really important for you.
Speaker 2: Like, how do you make that happen?
Speaker 3: You know what? I just think you've got to hold
Speaker 3: some things lightly right, because there's we want to take
Speaker 3: the business seriously, for sure, but we want to take
Speaker 3: ourselves too seriously. I think we want to recognize that
Speaker 3: for most people, the time that they're spending at work
Speaker 3: is more time than they're spending with family and friends
Speaker 3: quite often, and so you want to know that you're
Speaker 3: showing up, you're doing something that you love. And we've
Speaker 3: all got parts of the job that we don't love,
Speaker 3: but by and large, you feel like you're part of
Speaker 3: a community that you really enjoy hanging out with. And
Speaker 3: so I just like to do little things that just
Speaker 3: you know, bring to life a little bit of that likeness,
Speaker 3: particularly in times of challenge in the organization. So they're
Speaker 3: little things. You know. We have a town hall every
Speaker 3: two weeks. I've loved it actually because we do it virtually.
Speaker 3: It means that it doesn't matter where you are, you
Speaker 3: can dial in and be part of it. So we
Speaker 3: get you know, hundreds and hundred people that show up
Speaker 3: to these town halls every week. And at the end
Speaker 3: of every town hall, I'll kind of sign off with
Speaker 3: a music track. I'll pick a song of the week
Speaker 3: and usually to reflect that, you know, the week that's
Speaker 3: been on the week that's coming, and you know, at
Speaker 3: the end of the year, I'll put together that full
Speaker 3: Spotify list and we circulate it to the accommodation. And
Speaker 3: that was wonderful during twenty twenty because you know, COVID
Speaker 3: year was it was such a challenging year. But you know,
Speaker 3: I became the soundtrack for the year, and I'm with
Speaker 3: to it on occasional road trips and you really get
Speaker 3: a sense for the highs and lows that or in
Speaker 3: the business at the time, just through music to look
Speaker 3: at little things like that.
Speaker 2: That is so good.
Speaker 1: I want to know, like we've covered a lot of
Speaker 1: feel like, really fascinating ways about how you approach your work. Like,
Speaker 1: what are maybe one or two things that we haven't
Speaker 1: covered that you feel like would really surprise people to
Speaker 1: know about how you approach your work or things that
Speaker 1: you do.
Speaker 3: I am oh gosh that we haven't shared so far.
Speaker 3: You know. I think that you've got to have a
Speaker 3: healthy dose of conviction in the roles that you take up,
Speaker 3: particularly in leadership roles. So I think not being afraid
Speaker 3: to have a clear point of view about the role
Speaker 3: that business complain, Like I'm a massive believer in businesses
Speaker 3: being a force for good. I think I am a
Speaker 3: bit of a you know, conscious capitalist or a corporate
Speaker 3: greedy whatever you want to call it, but that genuine
Speaker 3: belief that you've got an opportunity to have a regenerative
Speaker 3: impact on the planet, to be a very strong contributor
Speaker 3: to a fairer and more socially inclusive society, and equally
Speaker 3: to deliver profits for shareholders that you can reinvest in
Speaker 3: those other two things, and innovation so that you can
Speaker 3: serve your consumer better than you've ever done before. And
Speaker 3: not everybody agrees with that, but I think it is
Speaker 3: really important to decide, you know, where you have conviction
Speaker 3: and how that sort of forms part of your own
Speaker 3: leadership legacy and the legacy that you want to create
Speaker 3: for the broader organization. And it can become quite a
Speaker 3: powerful compass, I think as well for others. So that
Speaker 3: would be one area, just strong conviction.
Speaker 4: And the other thing I would say is, you know,
Speaker 4: be prepared to zinc when other zag. I've had so
Speaker 4: many people over the course of my career give me
Speaker 4: career advice around you know, not taking up certain opportunities
Speaker 4: because it's not the linear path they should take, or
Speaker 4: what if it derails your career, or what if it's
Speaker 4: too small a company relative to the other companies you've run.
Speaker 3: And I just think on this sort of stuff, think
Speaker 3: about your career less like a corporate ladder and more
Speaker 3: like a rock climbing wall. Whereas sometimes you'll take lives
Speaker 3: that move you up, sometimes you'll deliberately take sideways moves
Speaker 3: because they put more tools in your toolkit so that
Speaker 3: you've got more transferable skills. And sometimes you might choose
Speaker 3: to just sit still for a moment, maybe even go back,
Speaker 3: because you've got other priorities that might take precedent in
Speaker 3: your life at that point in time, and it could
Speaker 3: be family. And I think it's about giving yourself and
Speaker 3: others in your team the space to do that, because
Speaker 3: I think then you create this beautiful melting pot of experiences.
Speaker 3: And I think that is the greatest gift we can
Speaker 3: give ourselves and others in our teams to further their careers.
Speaker 3: Is just a breadth of experiences.
Speaker 1: Hmmm. I like that, Yeah, zigging when people say zag
Speaker 1: And I guess, in terms of good career advice, is
Speaker 1: there anything that stands out for you in terms of
Speaker 1: some of the best career advice you've been given.
Speaker 3: I've had a really great opportunity to work with some
Speaker 3: incredible people who have always given me some good advice.
Speaker 3: And I've equally worked with some people that I've learned
Speaker 3: what not to do as well. And I think, you know,
Speaker 3: to be honest, both I think are equally valuable learning experiences.
Speaker 3: One just a little more a little nicer than the others.
Speaker 3: But the best advice I've ever had. I had a
Speaker 3: little opportunity early in my career to work with Bryce Courtney,
Speaker 3: who you know is the author of the Power of
Speaker 3: One and April Fool's Day, and at the time he
Speaker 3: was the creative director for George Patterson and I was
Speaker 3: doing a bit of that an internship there early on
Speaker 3: in my career, and he said to me, Niki, when
Speaker 3: you're skating on thin ice, you may as well tap dance.
Speaker 3: And that's just held me in really really good step.
Speaker 3: I kind of think, just feel the fear and do
Speaker 3: it anyway, try new things. Necessity is the mother of inventions.
Speaker 3: So more often than not, when you're out of your
Speaker 3: comfort zone, you will find a way of navigating your
Speaker 3: way out of any situation. If you surround yourself with
Speaker 3: the right people, ask the right questions, ask for help.
Speaker 3: It's okay to ask help with that. I think it's
Speaker 3: a really important leadership quality and then give generously.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they would be That's wonderful.
Speaker 1: And look, my final question for you, NICKI, for people
Speaker 1: that want to connect with you and the businesses slash
Speaker 1: brands that you lead, what is the best way for
Speaker 1: people to do that.
Speaker 3: Oh, I think LinkedIn probably the best bet I did.
Speaker 3: Check check that out also, so yeah, drop.
Speaker 1: Me online, wonderful and all link to that in the
Speaker 1: show notes Nicki, It's been absolutely fascinating getting an insight
Speaker 1: into how you work and just how deeply and deliberately
Speaker 1: you think about it. So thank you so much for
Speaker 1: giving me an hour of your time today.
Speaker 3: My absolute pleasure. It's been really enjoyable. So thank you
Speaker 3: so much, America.
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed my chat with Nicki.
Speaker 1: And if you're not already a subscriber or follower of
Speaker 1: How I Work, now is the time to hit follow
Speaker 1: or subscribe wherever you're listening to this from, because next
Speaker 1: week on the show, I've got Ronnie Kahan, who's the
Speaker 1: founder and CEO of OZ Harvest, and we're going to
Speaker 1: be talking about where she gets her best ideas from
Speaker 1: and also what to do with all the food in
Speaker 1: your fridge that is about to go off. How I
Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventing with production support from Dead
Speaker 1: Set Studios. The producer for this episode was the marvelous
Speaker 1: Jenner Cooder, and thank you to Matt Nimba, who does
Speaker 1: the audio mix and makes everything sound much better than
Speaker 1: it would have otherwise.
Speaker 2: See you next time.