1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,439 Speaker 1: When you're walking through the supermarket, you'll see many familiar 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: brands like Lipton, Dove, Continental, Resona, Ben and Jerry's. And 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: at first you might think that they have much in common, 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: but actually all of those well known brands are all 5 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: owned by Unilever. I'm talking about a global megastar company 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: responsible for four hundred brands in one hundred and ninety countries. 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: And Nicki Sparshot is CEO of Unilever Australia and New Zealand. 8 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: And she's also the global CEO of the super premium 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: tea brand T two. So it's safe to say she's 10 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: someone who has a lot on her plate. So how 11 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: does Nicki set goals for herself and her businesses but 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: also planned for the unexpected? 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 2: And how does she get to switch. 14 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: Off when there are so many priorities competing for her attention? 15 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: And I was also keen to find out what Unilever 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: has learned from introducing a four day work week and 17 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: it's New Zealand office. I'm doctor Amatha Immer. I'm an 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. 19 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: And this is how I work a show about how 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. Now, one CEO 21 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: role is probably plenty for most people, but NICKI has two. 22 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: So how does NICKI manage to do two CEO roles 23 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: at the same time. 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 3: It's definitely been an experience to have both gigs, but 25 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: I have to say it's also been one that has 26 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 3: been super fun for me and really complementary. So basically, 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 3: we've got on one side, the Union lead of business. 28 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 3: This is like a fast moving consumer goods company, and 29 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 3: I look after the Australian and New Zealand division of that. 30 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 3: And then we've got T two, which is on a 31 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: global scale and it's much more a direct to consumer 32 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 3: bricks and mortar and e commerce, luxury gifting and tea business. 33 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 3: And they're so different. So what I find is it's 34 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 3: actually my own very simple way of getting outside in perspective, 35 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 3: because I can take best practice that sits in one 36 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 3: organization and take it into the other. And likewise, when 37 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 3: we have challenges in one business, we can almost preemptively 38 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 3: navigate for them in another. So I've really enjoyed the 39 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 3: fact that they're two such different business models, but that 40 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 3: transferable learning between one into the other has been so 41 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 3: invaluable and the talent, the great people, and the capability 42 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 3: that we have sitting in the respective businesses is also different. 43 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 3: But we can benefit from that difference in a really 44 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 3: remarkable way. So, yes, it's been it's kept me out 45 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 3: of trouble, but it's been also incredibly enjoyable to do. 46 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: And how then do you think about your time and 47 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: how you're dedicating time to the two different businesses in 48 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: a given week or a given month. 49 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it's a good question. I think I singlehandedly 50 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: keep post it note in operation because I kind of 51 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 3: run a little bit of my life on analog in 52 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 3: many ways. But I do use the post it notes 53 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 3: to kind of keep my priorities really very much in check. So, 54 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 3: you know, I would have a quarterly priority list, like 55 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 3: what are the things that are you know, if I 56 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 3: get these done in the next twelve weeks, will deliver 57 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 3: eighty percent of the value that I can deliver for 58 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 3: the organization, you know, notwithstanding things that are throwing your 59 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: way that you haven't planned for. And then I translate 60 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 3: that into a monthly to do, into a weekly to 61 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 3: do list, and into a daily to do list, and 62 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 3: I take great satisfaction crossing it off in a pen 63 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 3: at the end of the day. But that's actually been 64 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 3: pretty important ritual for me because it helps me to 65 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: look across both the businesses and really determine where can 66 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 3: I focus my energy and my time most over the 67 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 3: next little while to create the most impact of both organizations. 68 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: And then I also make sure that in any week, 69 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 3: I allocate deep work time. So I just carve out 70 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 3: four hours where I don't schedule any meetings, I don't 71 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 3: plan to do any phone calls. I just give myself 72 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 3: the space to think about strategy, to think about people, 73 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,239 Speaker 3: to think about culture, new business opportunities, but that real 74 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 3: moment to just reflect on the businesses and take a 75 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 3: sort of aerial view, because it's I think it's really 76 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 3: important to get thirty thousand feet in the air and 77 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 3: equally at times be deep in the weeds. But to 78 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 3: move between both of those vantage points I think is 79 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 3: really important it for any any leader in any role. 80 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: I want to dig deeper into a few of those things. 81 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: So I want to understand your quarterly planning process. And 82 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this is a stupid question, but 83 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: how do you know what you should be prioritizing in 84 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: a quarter? 85 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a really good question, and I think, well, 86 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 3: for both of our businesses, we have our you know, 87 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 3: three year let's call it our three year strategy. It's 88 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 3: a bit of our north star. It gives us the 89 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 3: why we're doing what we're doing. It helps us to 90 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 3: articulate the strategic priorities, maybe the what that's going to 91 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 3: get us there, and above all, it is a really 92 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 3: strong foundation for the values on how we show up. 93 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 3: So it's the it's the how, let's say, and that's 94 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 3: sort of done on a three year horizon. It's a 95 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 3: very simple document. I have a really big belief that 96 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 3: there's sophistication in simplicity. So it's a one page document 97 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 3: and by and large, you hope that that doesn't change 98 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 3: so much over a three year period. Certainly where you 99 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 3: focus your energy and some of the curve balls and 100 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 3: the changing market dynamics may determine where you dull things 101 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 3: up or dull things down. But that comes a little 102 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 3: bit of our compass, so to speak, our strategic comforts, 103 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 3: and then we convert that into an annual plan. So 104 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 3: for each of the businesses, we sort of look at, well, 105 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 3: the next twelve month horizon, where what does good look 106 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 3: like and how we're going to get there, and then 107 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 3: I use that as the base to chuck down my 108 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 3: year a little bit more by quarter. 109 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, now I want to know an example, like, what's 110 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: an example of a quarterly goal that you would set 111 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: for yourself. 112 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: So while we would have quarterly financial targets that we 113 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 3: would set ourselves, we would have and they would become 114 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 3: critical measures for the whole organization to be rallying around. 115 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 3: I might look at one of those and say, well, 116 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 3: for us, for me specifically, this month, I'm going to 117 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 3: focus our energies on the cash target that we might 118 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 3: have for the business and what can we do to 119 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: really influence that. And it could be around inventory management, 120 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 3: could be around working cap or it could be around 121 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 3: different leavers. But there are some things that there are 122 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 3: plenty of things that I could spend my time on, 123 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 3: and I am so grateful because I have many, many 124 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 3: people in both businesses that are a lot smarter than 125 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 3: I am who can take on these jobs and deliver 126 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 3: them much more effectively that I can do. And then 127 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 3: there are other areas where I think maybe I have 128 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 3: a little bit of a superpower that I can bring 129 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 3: to the table, and when I focus my energy on 130 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: those things, then I can create some value for the organization. 131 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: So how do you then go about breaking that down 132 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: into monthly and weekly? 133 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 3: Like? 134 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: Is that something that you do at the beginning of 135 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: the month or at the quarter? 136 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: Like the start of the quarter? Is that when you 137 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: break everything down? 138 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 3: Yeah? I sit down at just the end of every 139 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 3: month and just take a a bit of time for 140 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 3: myself and just go how do I convert that into 141 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 3: a monthly to do with? If you think about it 142 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: like a backlog all of the things that I need 143 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 3: to get done, and then I'll have a look at 144 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 3: that and think, well, what are the things that I'm 145 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 3: going to pull off the backlog and put on a 146 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: to do list that I now actively work on. And 147 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 3: I'll do that on a monthly basis, And then at 148 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 3: the you know, on a Sunday night, just before I 149 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 3: kind of kick off a new week, I'll sit down 150 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 3: with a cup of tea, maybe a glass of wine, 151 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 3: and we'll just map out, you know, what that looks 152 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 3: like for the weak ahead and how I'll lokape my time. 153 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: I'm loving how methodical this all is. 154 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: Can I ask do you have any daily rituals around 155 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: planning or reflection. 156 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, I do. So I get up. I get up early. 157 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 3: This is going to sound ungodly, but I need to 158 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 3: do it because it's the only time that I can 159 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 3: get that quality meantime. But you know, I'll set my 160 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 3: alarm for four forty five. 161 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: That's ungodly, Yes, yeah. 162 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: A little bit. And at least every second day I'll 163 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 3: go do some exercise. So I'll go to the gym, 164 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 3: or I'll go for a really long walk or something 165 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 3: like that. But I do have to just get some 166 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 3: exercise into my day. And I just know that if 167 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: I don't do in the morning, it's just it's not 168 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 3: going to happen. So I'm just really conscious around my 169 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 3: own kind of disciplines and rituals that but that gives 170 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 3: me some really good time to just think. And then 171 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 3: when I come home, I will make myself, you know, 172 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: a coppa, and then I'll write my to doers for 173 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 3: the day. So just check to see what the meetings 174 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 3: are that already in my diary, and what are the 175 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 3: things that I need to get done, and I'll just 176 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 3: wrap that on a post it note and I'll go 177 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 3: onto the front of my journal. I write everything down 178 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 3: because the way I remember things is to kind of 179 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: put them on paper and what throw paper. Somehow they're 180 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 3: magically ingrained in my head. But that helps me to 181 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 3: then prioritize for the day. So that's my little morning ritual. 182 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 2: Do you have an end of day richual at all? 183 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 3: Ah? You know, I'm really fortunate at the moment that 184 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 3: I'm in a role that doesn't require as much travel 185 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 3: as some of the previous roles that I have done, 186 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 3: and so the last particularly in the last eighteen months, 187 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 3: we've been able to have dinner as a family almost 188 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 3: every night, and that's something I really try to protect. 189 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 3: So you try to get even if it's twenty minutes 190 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: in the morning for breakfast together before everyone goes off 191 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 3: doing their own thing, and then even if it's just 192 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 3: forty minutes at night, to reflect on the day that 193 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 3: we've each had and just spend some quality time together. 194 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 3: That is I would say that is my evening ritual. 195 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 3: And quite often after that I need to get back 196 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 3: on two meetings and calls just because of my colleagues 197 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 3: that I have that are in the US or in 198 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 3: the UK, and so making time zones works sometimes means 199 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: that I have to do that, But that's okay because 200 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 3: I've actually given myself the gift of having my time 201 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 3: with my husband and my two kids, which is really 202 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 3: important to me. That gives me energy. 203 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 2: Now you've mentioned that you deliberately leave. 204 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: Time for or reactive work in amongst looking at your 205 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: quarterly priorities, Like, how are you doing that in practice? 206 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: Like do you have buffer time in your diary? Like 207 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: what does that look like? 208 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 3: Yeah? I literally have like my deep work is coded 209 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: in yellow. That's my favorite color, and you know that's 210 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 3: so that's like kind of maybe my favorite time. And 211 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 3: then I've got Yeah, it literally says do not book meetings, 212 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 3: and it might be colored in you know, orange, and 213 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 3: I know that that time's then available. But you know what, 214 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 3: there's a lot of freedom in it as well, because Anna, 215 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 3: who works with me and she helps me manage my daring, 216 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 3: does it really well. Yeah. She can then call me 217 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 3: and say, Henny, can know you said no meetings here, 218 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 3: but this has come up? Is this more important or not? 219 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 3: And that's so helpful because then I can just take 220 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 3: an informed decision about, you know, whether I give up 221 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 3: that space or actually whether or not I need it 222 00:11:57,559 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 3: for something else. 223 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really fascinated with this. 224 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: I need more details, nikis so would every day of 225 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: your week, because I know you have your specific deep 226 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: work time which I do want to get into. But 227 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: with all the other days, would I be seeing a 228 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 1: chunk blocked out in your diary in orange that says 229 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: do not book like? 230 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 2: Is that a daily occurrence? 231 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 3: If I can get it every day, then I will 232 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 3: do it every day. And to be honest, some days 233 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,839 Speaker 3: of train wrecks. You know, if you would some days 234 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 3: in my diary and it would look awful, it would 235 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 3: look awful from seven thirty in the morning till eleven 236 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 3: thirty at night because it just happened to be one 237 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 3: of those days where there's you know, late night meetings 238 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 3: with our global teams, and that I just suck those up. 239 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: Right. 240 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 3: If every single day was like that, it'd be really difficult. 241 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: But the nature of the job is such that there 242 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 3: needs to be a certain degree of flexibility. And you 243 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 3: know what, I'm fine with that because it means that 244 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 3: when there's something on at the kids' school and they've 245 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 3: gone exhibition, and I think, gosh, I am going to 246 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 3: out and go and go and see that, and it 247 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 3: might be three o'clock in the afternoon, but that's okay 248 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 3: because then I'll come back home and I will work 249 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 3: later on to the evening. I feel that that, to 250 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 3: me is a version of work life balance. Right. I've 251 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 3: been able to make the choices that are right for 252 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 3: me and my family and still give what I need 253 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 3: to do to the job. And so there's an enormous 254 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 3: amount of freedom in that for me. 255 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 2: Now, deep work. 256 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 1: I know you take deep work seriously, and you're referring 257 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: to kind of having that thirty thousand feet view from 258 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: the air of what's going on. 259 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: Tell me about your deep work routine or ritual. 260 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 3: I think that the first thing that I love about 261 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 3: it is that I'm not I'm not in a meeting, 262 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 3: and I get a bucket boat of energy from being 263 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 3: with other people. So this is not necessarily about the 264 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 3: need to be on my own, but it gives me 265 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 3: the space to have a bucket time that I can 266 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: now choose what I'm going to do with. And so 267 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 3: I think just the very act of not having to 268 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 3: be on a screen, not having to be in a conversation, 269 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: just allows me some space to go through just actions 270 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 3: that require some thought. And you know, I can at 271 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: times get into a habit of feeling like when you 272 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 3: take action, you've got momentum. But what I've learned the 273 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 3: longer I've kind of been in their career is that actually, 274 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 3: sometimes the moments of greatest impact of the times when 275 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 3: you don't feel the need to act, but you just 276 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 3: give yourself the space to think. And I'm getting better 277 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 3: at that. You know, when I, on occasion receive an 278 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: email that sets my love boiling, Whereas my inclination may 279 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 3: have been to respond, I now sit with it just 280 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 3: that little bit longer than I normally would have, and 281 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 3: I I think nine times out of ten, my response 282 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 3: is different to what it would have been had I 283 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 3: just allowed myself to react instinctively. So that's what I 284 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: love about that deep work time. I just have that 285 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 3: opportunity to give myself the space to think about things 286 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 3: without the rush, without the chaos, without the noise of 287 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 3: the daily operation. 288 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: Will you have particular things that you bring into that 289 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: deep work time that you're like, Okay, I want to 290 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: think about this particular goal or this particular project. 291 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: Like how planned is that deep work time? 292 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 3: It varies depending on what I need to do. So 293 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 3: let's say it's a bit of work on the organization 294 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 3: and people. Then I might actually use some post it 295 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 3: notes and stick them up on the wall and you know, 296 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 3: have a little bit of my own mini workshop on 297 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 3: my own that's really valuable. Occasionally I will call other people. 298 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 3: I will do a sort of dialar friend, because that 299 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 3: is the time I actually want to get some outside 300 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 3: in perspective. So sometimes I use that deep work time 301 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 3: actually to connect with the people in other companies quite often, 302 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: sometimes in other industries. Quite often that can give me 303 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 3: a different way of looking perhaps at the problem. All 304 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 3: the opportunity that I have. 305 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: That idea of like the kind of phone a friend. 306 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: I like that, Like how do you think about your 307 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: networks in that sense? And who you'll call for what? 308 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I think actually, you know, people will say 309 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 3: how important is to have a network and to do 310 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 3: networking and all that sort of stuff, And I think, actually, 311 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: just at the heart of it is two you can 312 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 3: either feel incredibly resource constrained at times, or you can 313 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 3: realize that there's an incredible amount of resource abundance if 314 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 3: you just reach out and generously share your knowledge. And equally, 315 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 3: you'll find that people are very, very generous in sharing this. 316 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 3: That's been my experience at least, so sometimes the people 317 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 3: that I have in my network, I like it to 318 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 3: be varied, like I'm a really big believer in the 319 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 3: businesses I lead or the teams that I'm part of, 320 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 3: and I also would put this in my own kind 321 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 3: of personal social kind of circle. I like diversity of perspective. 322 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 3: I like to be able to connect with people that 323 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 3: can offer alternative ways of thinking about things, because they 324 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 3: just give you a very creative lens. 325 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: I like what you said about I guess sharing with 326 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: an abundance mindset or giving with that kind of mindset. 327 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 1: I would imagine that you're someone given your position, you 328 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: would have a lot of people reaching out to you 329 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: for advice or guidance or to speak at this event 330 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: or that. How do you balance having that abundance mindset 331 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,239 Speaker 1: and wanting to share generously with just the realities of 332 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 1: only having a certain amount of hours in the day. 333 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 3: I do have to say no at times. Alternatively, I'm 334 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 3: also quite good at saying yes, but yes, but I 335 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 3: won't be able to do it for another six months. Yes, 336 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 3: but I'll only be able to give you twenty minutes 337 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 3: and my time at this stage. Does that work for you? Yes, 338 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 3: I would love to be able to participate, but I 339 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 3: can't be there in person. Could I drop you an 340 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 3: email with my thoughts? I think you know, sometimes it's 341 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 3: about finding ways that allow you to share, even just 342 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 3: a little, but in a way that's reflective also of 343 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 3: the time that they have. 344 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: We'll be back with Nikki in a moment talking about 345 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: how her four day week experiment has gone in New 346 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: Zealand where staff only work four days a week but 347 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: they get paid for five. And if you're not connected 348 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: with me on the socials, why not? So I would 349 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: love to connect with you as a listener of the show. 350 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: You can find me on LinkedIn just search for Amantha 351 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: Imba and on Twitter I'm at Amantha and on Instagram 352 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: I'm at Amantha I and drop me a note saying 353 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,239 Speaker 1: that this is how you found me. Now, something that 354 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: Unilever in New Zealand has made headlines for is trialing 355 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: the four day week. 356 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 2: Can you tell me about what led to the decision 357 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 2: to try the four day week? And I will frame this. 358 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure that a lot of people listening to how 359 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: I work a familiar with the concept, but in a nutshell. 360 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: The four day week involves paying people their full time 361 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: salary one hundred percent of their salary for having them 362 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: work eighty percent of the time, but at one hundred 363 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: percent performance, so achieving what you would achieve if you 364 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: were working those full five days. 365 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: So tell me what led to the decision to try 366 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 2: that in New Zealand. 367 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, there were a couple of a couple of things. 368 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 3: The first one is, I think there is this huge 369 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 3: cognition that time is probably one of the most precious 370 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 3: commodities that we crave, and certainly whether it's in our 371 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 3: personal life in our professional life, the idea of gosh, 372 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 3: I wish I had a bit more time, I think 373 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 3: is not lost on any of us, and it just 374 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 3: got us wondering around whether or not we would be 375 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 3: able to create an environment where people felt really actively 376 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 3: engaged and energized being part of the Unilever community and 377 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 3: simultaneously we could unlock productivity gains as a result of that. 378 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 3: And so we thought, well, if we were able to 379 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 3: give everybody a day back for them to use however 380 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 3: they wanted, so, whether that's for further education or to exercise, 381 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 3: or to participate in a hobby, spend time with family. 382 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 3: It doesn't really matter, but that time of an extra day, 383 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 3: with one of the caveats being that as a team, 384 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 3: you no need to find out how you can unlock 385 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 3: twenty percent of that capacity to free up that time 386 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 3: by removing all of the non value added work and 387 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 3: processes and bureaucracy and legacy stuff that we do that 388 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 3: might not make sense any longer in order to be 389 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 3: able to do that, and then in the process allowed 390 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 3: us to be more efficient and more effective and more 391 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 3: energized about being at work as well. So we pick 392 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 3: the New Zealand business because it's a big union leave 393 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 3: business for us, but it's also not so big that 394 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 3: we can't manage it. And we really wanted to run 395 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 3: this as a twelve month test, and we've got the 396 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 3: University of Technology partnering with us on this actually, so 397 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 3: we've got some independent assessors as we go through this 398 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 3: journey so we can hold ourselves to account. But we're 399 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 3: about six months in now and it's been really exciting 400 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 3: to see how the New Zealand team have come together 401 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 3: to try to take up this opportunity and how they've 402 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 3: removed a whole lot of work that doesn't make sense. 403 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 3: And equally, how they've put in place some really good 404 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,959 Speaker 3: behaviors that allow us to be more efficient and more effective. 405 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: Do you know, like of any examples of maybe some 406 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: of the biggest changes that the New Zealand crew have 407 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: made to how they approach work or meetings, or you know, 408 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: processes that have been improved, or you know, like things 409 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: that have been killed off. I'd love to know a 410 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: couple of examples of things that have made a really 411 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: big impact. 412 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think meetings is a big one, right. We 413 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 3: end up sort of sometimes we convince ourselves that because 414 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 3: we're busy, we're being purposeful, and meetings can be a 415 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 3: great way of feeling busy but not necessarily purposeful. So 416 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 3: that's certainly been an area the team have tackled. When 417 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 3: do you have a meeting, why do you have it, 418 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: who needs to be there? How do you empower people 419 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 3: to take decisions in the meeting without creating further meetings 420 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 3: to validate what's been done. So I think there's been 421 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 3: a lot of work that's been done around meeting discipline. 422 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 3: For sure. There's been interrogation around processes, so the way 423 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 3: we're getting things through the system and is there ways 424 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 3: of just radically simplifying some of the internal processes that 425 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 3: we have. They've looked at projects, so you know, inevitably 426 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 3: there is a fine amount of time and there are 427 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 3: plenty of things we can do, but probably only a 428 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 3: few things that we should do at a certain point. 429 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 3: And so the teams have really had a look at 430 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 3: flowing resources to where most value can be created or 431 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 3: where we can have the most impact. 432 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: What's been the biggest challenge or some of the biggest 433 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: challenges that the group has found from trying to squeeze 434 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: five days where they work into four. 435 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 3: And I think the therein lies the biggest watch out right, 436 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 3: if we simply push five days of work into four, 437 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 3: we haven't actually realized what we intended to do here, 438 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 3: because this isn't about now stretching four days of the 439 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 3: week so that people are now working longer hours. This 440 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 3: is genuinely about removing twenty percent of the stuff that 441 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 3: slows us down. It's unnecessary to give us that extra 442 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 3: day to ourselves in the spirit of rejuvenation, energizing, getting 443 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: outside in perspective, being much more on the front line. 444 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 3: You know where our consumers are and the people that 445 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 3: we serve rather than being sort of city behind the laptop. 446 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 3: So the key to that is we genuinely do need 447 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 3: to find those unlocks, otherwise we haven't actually delivered the 448 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 3: intent of what we want to do with the four 449 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 3: day week. The other area is, you know, one of 450 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 3: the criteria that we did say is that for our 451 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 3: our customers, for our suppliers, for our team members that 452 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 3: aren't participating in the four day week with that in 453 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 3: Australia or across the globe, they should not feel any 454 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 3: differently about working with the team in New Zealand other 455 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 3: than perhaps the positive impact that this should bring to 456 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 3: the team, because we did want to make sure that 457 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:24,719 Speaker 3: we had that servant leadership or that customer service orientation 458 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 3: at the core of what we're doing it. And that's 459 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 3: a really easy thing to say, and that takes a 460 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 3: little bit more time to make sure that you genuinely 461 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 3: do have five days worth of coverage so that you 462 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 3: are able to honor all of those commitments as well. 463 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 3: So look, I'm really optimistic about it, and I think 464 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 3: part of any good test is actually that constant check 465 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 3: in and feedback loop. So as Nick and the team 466 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 3: in New Zealand go through this process, they're almost reorientating 467 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 3: priorities on a month by month basis as well, so 468 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 3: that they're taking those learnings and now asking themselves or 469 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 3: what do we doing need to do differently as a 470 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 3: result of that. 471 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: I love that distinction between sort of framing it is 472 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: how do we fit five days worth of work into four, 473 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: but actually going no, no, no, we actually need to 474 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: change how we work and we need to stop things 475 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: and kill things. It reminds me A good friend of 476 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: mine is Scott Anthony, who's a bit of a global 477 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: thought letter on innovation from inosit and he talks about 478 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: zombie projects and the value in organizations looking for zombies, 479 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: which are projects or processes or meetings or things that 480 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: have been worked on that are kind of like the 481 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: living dead, but no one has actually stopped to have 482 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: the courage. 483 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: To kill them. 484 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: And like, how how do you create that environment where 485 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: it is okay for people to stop doing things? 486 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 3: You've got to kill your darlings, right. It's a really 487 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 3: hard thing to do because in many ways, some of 488 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 3: the things people don't want to stop, the things that 489 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 3: they've invested time, energy and effort into up until this point, 490 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 3: and in some instances are also sort of pet projects, 491 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 3: but they're not really the things that are going to 492 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 3: shift the needle. You've got to lead from the front 493 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 3: as well. I think, you know, stop a few things 494 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 3: in a really material way to demonstrate that you're actually 495 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,719 Speaker 3: prepared to stop it. You need to not allow for creep. 496 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: So when you do stop things, you don't all of 497 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 3: a sudden now you know, in a moment of panic 498 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 3: replace it with something else, because you know you feel 499 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 3: that that's the thing to do. Is you've sort of 500 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 3: got to stay the course on this stuff. So much 501 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 3: of it I think is about behavior, isn't it. It's 502 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 3: about sort of just the choices that you make to 503 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 3: commit to an initiative of this nature, agree the principles 504 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 3: that are going to make it successful, and then like 505 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 3: walk the talk. And when you do that, it gives 506 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 3: others the permission to do the same. 507 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: That's something I've heard about. 508 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 1: Something you do is that you'll get staff to coach you, 509 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: like the CEO, in things that they know more about 510 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: than you do, kind of like I guess reverse mentoring. 511 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: I want to say something that came from ge possibly 512 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: and can you give me an example of how this works? 513 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: In practice. 514 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, totally. I'm a huge fan of it. Look 515 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 3: at it comes down to, Oh, give you some real 516 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 3: examples right now. So I have team members that reverse 517 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 3: mentor me in say digital and e commerce. When I 518 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 3: took over the T two business, we didn't have a 519 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 3: really big e commerce platform at that point in time, 520 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 3: but we could certainly say that e commerce was where 521 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 3: we needed to invest our time, and we had to 522 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 3: build the infrastructure from scratch and the supply chain that 523 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 3: sits around it, the range everything. So we're building at 524 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 3: bottom up now. And I can tell you that was 525 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 3: not my wheelhouse, but I needed to learn it very 526 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 3: very quickly. So asidne from putting together a team of 527 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 3: people who for whom it was sort of second nature, 528 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 3: I really wanted to make sure that I upskilled myself 529 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 3: in this area, so in the world of e commerce 530 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 3: and the world of digital more broadly, in part not 531 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 3: because I need to be an expert in it, but 532 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 3: I need to be able to ask the right questions, 533 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 3: and that's where reverse mentoring is great. So I just 534 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 3: had a couple of team members. I would meet with 535 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 3: them for maybe an hour every month. We'd just pick 536 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 3: a different topic area and I would just ask them 537 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 3: to teach me literally, or sometimes I would come with questions. 538 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 3: So here are a few areas that I've come up against. 539 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 3: I'd really like to kind of get under the skin 540 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 3: of them and understand them better, you know, show me. 541 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 3: And quite often we do a quick pro quo so 542 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 3: that someone will say to me with Nikki, a oh 543 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 3: do you reverse mentoring on you know, a common digital 544 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 3: and can you kind of help me out with strategy 545 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 3: or financial acument or something like that, So you know, 546 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 3: we just kind of share it, you know, you trade. 547 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 2: That's really cool. 548 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: Now I've heard that something about your style as a 549 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: leader is that bringing fun and levity into the office 550 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: is really important for you. 551 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:23,959 Speaker 2: Like, how do you make that happen? 552 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 3: You know what? I just think you've got to hold 553 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 3: some things lightly right, because there's we want to take 554 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 3: the business seriously, for sure, but we want to take 555 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 3: ourselves too seriously. I think we want to recognize that 556 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 3: for most people, the time that they're spending at work 557 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 3: is more time than they're spending with family and friends 558 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 3: quite often, and so you want to know that you're 559 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 3: showing up, you're doing something that you love. And we've 560 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 3: all got parts of the job that we don't love, 561 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 3: but by and large, you feel like you're part of 562 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 3: a community that you really enjoy hanging out with. And 563 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 3: so I just like to do little things that just 564 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 3: you know, bring to life a little bit of that likeness, 565 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 3: particularly in times of challenge in the organization. So they're 566 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 3: little things. You know. We have a town hall every 567 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 3: two weeks. I've loved it actually because we do it virtually. 568 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 3: It means that it doesn't matter where you are, you 569 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 3: can dial in and be part of it. So we 570 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 3: get you know, hundreds and hundred people that show up 571 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 3: to these town halls every week. And at the end 572 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 3: of every town hall, I'll kind of sign off with 573 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 3: a music track. I'll pick a song of the week 574 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 3: and usually to reflect that, you know, the week that's 575 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 3: been on the week that's coming, and you know, at 576 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 3: the end of the year, I'll put together that full 577 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 3: Spotify list and we circulate it to the accommodation. And 578 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 3: that was wonderful during twenty twenty because you know, COVID 579 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 3: year was it was such a challenging year. But you know, 580 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 3: I became the soundtrack for the year, and I'm with 581 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 3: to it on occasional road trips and you really get 582 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 3: a sense for the highs and lows that or in 583 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 3: the business at the time, just through music to look 584 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 3: at little things like that. 585 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 2: That is so good. 586 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: I want to know, like we've covered a lot of 587 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: feel like, really fascinating ways about how you approach your work. Like, 588 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: what are maybe one or two things that we haven't 589 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: covered that you feel like would really surprise people to 590 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: know about how you approach your work or things that 591 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: you do. 592 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 3: I am oh gosh that we haven't shared so far. 593 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 3: You know. I think that you've got to have a 594 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 3: healthy dose of conviction in the roles that you take up, 595 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 3: particularly in leadership roles. So I think not being afraid 596 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 3: to have a clear point of view about the role 597 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 3: that business complain, Like I'm a massive believer in businesses 598 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 3: being a force for good. I think I am a 599 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 3: bit of a you know, conscious capitalist or a corporate 600 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 3: greedy whatever you want to call it, but that genuine 601 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 3: belief that you've got an opportunity to have a regenerative 602 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 3: impact on the planet, to be a very strong contributor 603 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 3: to a fairer and more socially inclusive society, and equally 604 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 3: to deliver profits for shareholders that you can reinvest in 605 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 3: those other two things, and innovation so that you can 606 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 3: serve your consumer better than you've ever done before. And 607 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 3: not everybody agrees with that, but I think it is 608 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 3: really important to decide, you know, where you have conviction 609 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 3: and how that sort of forms part of your own 610 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 3: leadership legacy and the legacy that you want to create 611 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 3: for the broader organization. And it can become quite a 612 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 3: powerful compass, I think as well for others. So that 613 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 3: would be one area, just strong conviction. 614 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 4: And the other thing I would say is, you know, 615 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 4: be prepared to zinc when other zag. I've had so 616 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 4: many people over the course of my career give me 617 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 4: career advice around you know, not taking up certain opportunities 618 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 4: because it's not the linear path they should take, or 619 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 4: what if it derails your career, or what if it's 620 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,879 Speaker 4: too small a company relative to the other companies you've run. 621 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 3: And I just think on this sort of stuff, think 622 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 3: about your career less like a corporate ladder and more 623 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 3: like a rock climbing wall. Whereas sometimes you'll take lives 624 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 3: that move you up, sometimes you'll deliberately take sideways moves 625 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 3: because they put more tools in your toolkit so that 626 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 3: you've got more transferable skills. And sometimes you might choose 627 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 3: to just sit still for a moment, maybe even go back, 628 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 3: because you've got other priorities that might take precedent in 629 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:47,919 Speaker 3: your life at that point in time, and it could 630 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 3: be family. And I think it's about giving yourself and 631 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 3: others in your team the space to do that, because 632 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 3: I think then you create this beautiful melting pot of experiences. 633 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 3: And I think that is the greatest gift we can 634 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 3: give ourselves and others in our teams to further their careers. 635 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 3: Is just a breadth of experiences. 636 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: Hmmm. I like that, Yeah, zigging when people say zag 637 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: And I guess, in terms of good career advice, is 638 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 1: there anything that stands out for you in terms of 639 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: some of the best career advice you've been given. 640 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 3: I've had a really great opportunity to work with some 641 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 3: incredible people who have always given me some good advice. 642 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 3: And I've equally worked with some people that I've learned 643 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 3: what not to do as well. And I think, you know, 644 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 3: to be honest, both I think are equally valuable learning experiences. 645 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 3: One just a little more a little nicer than the others. 646 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 3: But the best advice I've ever had. I had a 647 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 3: little opportunity early in my career to work with Bryce Courtney, 648 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 3: who you know is the author of the Power of 649 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 3: One and April Fool's Day, and at the time he 650 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 3: was the creative director for George Patterson and I was 651 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 3: doing a bit of that an internship there early on 652 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 3: in my career, and he said to me, Niki, when 653 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 3: you're skating on thin ice, you may as well tap dance. 654 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 3: And that's just held me in really really good step. 655 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 3: I kind of think, just feel the fear and do 656 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 3: it anyway, try new things. Necessity is the mother of inventions. 657 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 3: So more often than not, when you're out of your 658 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 3: comfort zone, you will find a way of navigating your 659 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 3: way out of any situation. If you surround yourself with 660 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 3: the right people, ask the right questions, ask for help. 661 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 3: It's okay to ask help with that. I think it's 662 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 3: a really important leadership quality and then give generously. 663 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, they would be That's wonderful. 664 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: And look, my final question for you, NICKI, for people 665 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: that want to connect with you and the businesses slash 666 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: brands that you lead, what is the best way for 667 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: people to do that. 668 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,359 Speaker 3: Oh, I think LinkedIn probably the best bet I did. 669 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 3: Check check that out also, so yeah, drop. 670 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: Me online, wonderful and all link to that in the 671 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: show notes Nicki, It's been absolutely fascinating getting an insight 672 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: into how you work and just how deeply and deliberately 673 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: you think about it. So thank you so much for 674 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 1: giving me an hour of your time today. 675 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 3: My absolute pleasure. It's been really enjoyable. So thank you 676 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 3: so much, America. 677 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed my chat with Nicki. 678 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: And if you're not already a subscriber or follower of 679 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: How I Work, now is the time to hit follow 680 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: or subscribe wherever you're listening to this from, because next 681 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: week on the show, I've got Ronnie Kahan, who's the 682 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: founder and CEO of OZ Harvest, and we're going to 683 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: be talking about where she gets her best ideas from 684 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: and also what to do with all the food in 685 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: your fridge that is about to go off. How I 686 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventing with production support from Dead 687 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: Set Studios. The producer for this episode was the marvelous 688 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: Jenner Cooder, and thank you to Matt Nimba, who does 689 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: the audio mix and makes everything sound much better than 690 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: it would have otherwise. 691 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 2: See you next time.