1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Already, and this is the Daily Art. This is the 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Daily os. Oh, now it makes sense. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Ours. It's Tuesday, 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 2: the fourth of November. I'm Emma Gillespie. 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: I'm Lucy Tassel. 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: One of the world's biggest music companies, Universal has announced 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: a major deal with an AI song generator, the first 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: of its kind partnership would have been a pretty big 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 2: global story on its own, but it's the fact that 10 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 2: Universal had been trying to sue the very platform it's 11 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 2: now working with that's added another layer of interest. Today 12 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: we are going to unpack how we got here and 13 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: what this deal means for the creative industry and the. 14 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: Future of music. Emma, to kick things off, I think 15 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: the best place to start is to explain who are 16 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: the key players in this story and how have they 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: interacted with each other up to this point. Yes. 18 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 2: So, first we've got Universal Music Group UMG, a massive, 19 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: massive company that owns labels including EMI, Capitol Records, def Jam, 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: Virgin Music. It calls itself the world's leading music company, 21 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 2: and for good reason. It represents artists including Taylor Swift, 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 2: Billie Eilish, Kendrick Lamar, Sabrina Carpenter, The Weekend, Dochy Drake, 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: Post Malone, you get the drift, I could go on, 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: then we've got Udio. This is an AI music generator. 25 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 2: So it launched in April last year with some backing 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: from a few quite big names in tech that includes 27 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: Will I Am the Musician and Instagram co founder Mike Krieger. Now, 28 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 2: how it works is users can type prompts into a 29 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: textbox on the platform and generate entirely new songs based 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: on those instructions. So you could, for example, type something 31 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: like upbeat song about podcasts and you'll get a song 32 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 2: pretty quickly or almost instantly. Or you can even get 33 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: more specific and request something that sounds like a particular 34 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: genre or style like, for example, upbeat pop song in 35 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 2: the style of Sabrina Carpenter about the Daily Os podcast. 36 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: And you can even go as far to kind of 37 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 2: describe the vibe that you want the song to kind 38 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: of have, how you want listeners to feel when they 39 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 2: hear it, and then the platform creates a track that 40 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: matches your description. 41 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: Okay, so this music platform, this AI music platform launchers 42 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: last year. You mentioned up at the top that at 43 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: some point, UMG decides to sue this platform, I assume 44 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: for the reasons that you've described. Basically it can mimic 45 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: its artists. 46 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. 47 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: So. 48 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: In June last year, the Recording Industry Association of America 49 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: announced Music's Big Three. So that's Universal, Sony and Warner 50 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 2: had teamed up to take action against Udio, that very 51 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 2: platform we just talked about, and another AI generator called Suno. 52 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 2: The music groups basically accused these platforms of copyright infringement 53 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: on what they called an almost unimaginable scale. The core 54 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 2: allegation was basically that these platforms were training their AI 55 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: models on millions of copyrighted songs without any permission or 56 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: licensing deals in place to do so. So the idea 57 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,679 Speaker 2: being that these platforms are kind of profiting off other artists' 58 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 2: work without giving them their dues. 59 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: What kind of evidence did the Big Three present? 60 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: So Universal alleged that multiple AI generated songs on Udio 61 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: closely resembled their classics. It gave many examples, including a 62 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 2: song that had a very similar melody and chord progression 63 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: to the Temptations nineteen sixty four hit My Girl Now. 64 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: Udio generated a song that was very similar to My 65 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: Girl based on the prompt My Tempting nineteen sixty four girl, 66 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: Smokey sing Hitsville soul pop. 67 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: Interesting. 68 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: Yes, UMG pointed to other examples that sounded very similar 69 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: to classic hits like My Way as performed by Frank Sinatra, 70 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: Abbas Dancing Queen, and even Christmas classics like Rocking around 71 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 2: the Christmas Tree. So the labels argued that for Udio 72 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: specifically to create music that sounded this similar to existing songs, 73 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 2: it must have trained its model on copyrighted recordings. Then, 74 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 2: the record labels later amended the lawsuit to also include 75 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 2: allegations that Udio sourced music through the illegal scraping of 76 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: copyrighted recordings from YouTube as well. 77 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: Okay, right, So then how did Udio respond to these allegations. 78 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: It argued that it hadn't broken any laws and that 79 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: it uses quote state of the art filters to ensure 80 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 2: it does not reproduce copyrighted works or artists' voices. The 81 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: company claims its music generator was trained using publicly available music. Okay, 82 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 2: and this has started a really interesting conversation about fair use. 83 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 2: So it said its actions constituted fair use under US 84 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: copyright law. Which is a legal concept that basically allows 85 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: a limited use of some copyrighted material without permission in 86 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 2: certain circumstances. It's quite vague, but an example of fair 87 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: use might be if we hear on the podcast we're 88 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: talking about a story relating to a popular song, and 89 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: we played, you know, five seconds of that song to 90 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: set the scene, that would be considered fair use. Udio said, quote, 91 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: we stand behind our technology and believe that generative AI 92 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 2: will become a mainstay of modern society. 93 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: That's interesting that they said publicly available. They didn't say 94 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: royalty free, they didn't say like copyright free. They just 95 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: said publicly available, which I guess you could say. YouTube 96 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: is a platform that doesn't require you to sign in, 97 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: so you could kind of argue this is publicly available. 98 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, a very interesting kind of rabbit hole of what 99 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: that really means. 100 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: So then how do we get from there this kind 101 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: of legal standoff to a business partnership. 102 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: We now know that the two companies had actually been 103 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 2: in talks behind the scenes for several months while these 104 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: ongoing legal proceedings were in the background, and it all 105 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: came to a head last week when Udio and Universal 106 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: confirmed they had reached a compensatory legal settlement, but it 107 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 2: didn't stop there, because the companies announced that they're now 108 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 2: partnering to build an entirely new AI music platform together, 109 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: which is set to launch in twenty twenty six. 110 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: What do we know about this platform? 111 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: According to a joint statement from both companies, it's going 112 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 2: to be powered by Generative AI, trained on authorized and 113 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 2: licensed music, and the company said a new subscription service 114 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: will be involved, so users will pay subscribe to kind 115 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: of use the platform that is based off accessing this 116 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: licensed music, which the statement said will quote transform the 117 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: user engagement experience, creating a licensed and protected environment to 118 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: customize and share music responsibly on the Udio platform. A 119 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 2: crucial difference from the old Udio is that this platform 120 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: will only work with music from artists who have opted 121 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 2: into it, who have given their permission explicitly. 122 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so that's the big difference. It's not taking 123 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: things from YouTube. It's saying, I, an artist, choose to 124 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: allow this AI platform to use my songs to come 125 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: up with new material. 126 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: Yes, And I mean that's what Universal says, That's what 127 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: Udio says. They're framing it as this kind of further 128 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: revenue opportunity for UMG artists and songwriters. But in terms 129 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: of what it actually looks like, there's a lot that 130 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: we don't know. It could mean, and it likely will 131 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 2: mean that udio users can generate AI songs using the 132 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: actual voices of well known artists. The CEO of UDO, 133 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: a guy called Andrew Sanchez. He told Rolling Stone, quote, 134 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: we want to build a community of super fans around creation. 135 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: You'll be able to consume and interact with your favorite 136 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: songs and artists in the same place, adding I might 137 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 2: want to listen to songs that are made by my 138 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: favorite band, and then maybe I want to remix one. 139 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: He called it a massive expansion, a paradigm that doesn't 140 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: exist right now. 141 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: So these artists, these songwriters, they're opting in to this platform, 142 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: are they going to get paid for that use? 143 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: Well, that is what Universal says. It says there will 144 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: be revenue opportunities for artists that opt in. It looks 145 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: like they will be compensated in two ways, So when 146 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 2: their music is used to train the AI model, and 147 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: also when their music is used in the platform's outputs. 148 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: So if a song uses the voice of an artist 149 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 2: or sounds like an artist because it's trained on their songs, 150 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: they're kind of product of that will include some kind 151 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 2: of compensation for artists. We don't know a great deal 152 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: about how much money will be in it for the artists, 153 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 2: but we also know that there is this bigger compensation 154 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 2: deal that has been reached between UMG and Udio. The 155 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: exact figure of what Udio has agreed to pay Universal, though, 156 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 2: has not been made public. 157 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: All of these changes, though, are still in the future. 158 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: I assume what happens to Udio in interim. 159 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: In the meantime, the platform has already been updated since 160 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 2: this deal was announced so that users can still create 161 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: AI generated songs and stream within Udio, but they can 162 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: no longer download tracks or share them on other platforms 163 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 2: like Spotify or Apple Music or YouTube, which was an 164 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 2: early challenge of AI soong generation that you know, people 165 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: were making music that sounded a lot like the artists 166 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 2: we know and listen to on a regular basis, sharing 167 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: them elsewhere, but them being you know, not the real deal, 168 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 2: and they're being lost revenue for those artists. But as 169 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 2: I mentioned, as soon as this deal was announced last week, 170 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 2: Udio immediately disabled all downloads from its platform. 171 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: Speaking of those artists. What have we heard from singers 172 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: and songwriters so far? 173 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, the response within the music industry has been pretty mixed. 174 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 2: Some see it as a positive step forward, others have 175 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 2: raised serious concerns. The Music Artists Coalition, which represents recording artists, 176 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: released a statement raising questions around the deal, and they 177 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 2: are asking for more transparency around some key issues, you know, 178 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 2: things like how much settlement money was paid, where will 179 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: this money go, how will revenue be split, and how 180 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 2: will artists work actually be used in practice if they 181 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: give consent to Udio. Then we've got us based not 182 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 2: for profit, the Copyright Alliance. It represents over two million 183 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 2: artists and creatives and has actually welcomed the deal. It 184 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: said this will create a new, responsibly trained, generative AI 185 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 2: music service. 186 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: Quote. 187 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: This news isn't just a win for UMG and for 188 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: its artists and songwriters, it's a win for everyone in 189 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 2: the copyright community. It reaffirms that generative AI products should 190 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 2: and can be crafted responsibly and with respect for copyright owners. 191 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 2: So that was from the Copyright Alliance. 192 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: Now I am assuming this has resolved and Udio's legal battle, 193 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: But what about the other two in the big three 194 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: that you mentioned earlier. 195 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: Yes, Sony and Warner are still actively pursuing this lawsuit 196 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: with Udio, so the platform is still being sued by 197 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: two of the three big players. But the UMG deal 198 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: really could mark a turning point for AI and music. 199 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 2: You know, we could see potentially Sony and Warner follow 200 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: suit and strike similar licensing deals. But there are some 201 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: big questions that remain, you know, like the question around 202 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 2: what is fair use. Can AI companies legally train their 203 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 2: models on copyrighted music without authorization? We have no answer 204 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: to that. If the Sony and Warner lawsuits proceed, it 205 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 2: will be you know, really interesting to see what a 206 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: judge thinks about that. And you know, how the UMG 207 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: approved Udio platform of the future is going to work 208 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 2: in practice for artists and users is a massive question mark. 209 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: Whatever happens next, though, Lucy, it's clear this is a 210 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: deal that's going to shape how the music industry approaches 211 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 2: AI going forward, and we'll keep a close eye on it. 212 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for explaining that to us, and what 213 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: Thanks Lucy, and thank you for joining us today on 214 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,599 Speaker 1: the Daily Odds. We'll be back this evening with the headlines. 215 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: Until then, have a great day. My name is Lily 216 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Kalkudin woman from 217 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is 218 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and pays 219 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait island and nations. 220 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries, 221 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: both past and present.