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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now.

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Speaker 2: I struggle with the departure from a reality here, like,

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Speaker 2: have we forgotten what we were like when we were kids?

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Speaker 2: Were there times where you were a little bit less

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Speaker 2: than ideal when you were bored?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I put my finger in my mom's jam seals.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: I have no idea how this is going to go

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Speaker 2: because you won't tell me what you're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about in today's podcast.

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Speaker 4: Not a word. Still, not a word.

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Speaker 2: You're not going to say anything at all until the

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Speaker 2: podcast is really going.

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Speaker 4: Is that what you're saying?

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Speaker 3: What do you want me to say?

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Speaker 2: I want you Well, we're going now. So it's happening.

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Speaker 2: Hello this doctor Justin Collson. I'm here with Kylie, my

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Speaker 2: wife and mum to our six children, and today's topic.

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Speaker 2: It's coming off the back of a TV interview I

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Speaker 2: did just recently on Channel nine. There was an article

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Speaker 2: that appeared in the Sitny Morning Herald all about how

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Speaker 2: important it is that our kids are bored from time

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Speaker 2: to time. We've got to stop entertaining our children. They

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Speaker 2: need to be bored. That's what the article said. And

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Speaker 2: I don't know what your feeling is on this because

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Speaker 2: you literally won't tell me.

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Speaker 3: I think anybody who says that children should be bored

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Speaker 3: only had one child or none.

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Speaker 4: So you disagree as soon as.

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Speaker 3: You have siblings in the house and your children are

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Speaker 3: board what usually happens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, great, so this is going to be an

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Speaker 2: easier conversation than I thought. We're actually in furious agreement here.

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Speaker 2: I've just done a Google and I've just typed in

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Speaker 2: is it good for a child to be bored? Here's

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Speaker 2: what I've got from Melbourne Child's Psychology. It says boredom

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Speaker 2: gives children an inner quiet that helps with imagination and

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Speaker 2: self awareness. I don't know what planet they're living on,

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Speaker 2: Melbourne Child Psychology and School Psychology Services, but it's not

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Speaker 2: the same one that I live on. Boredom gives children

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Speaker 2: an inner quiet, now, it gives them an inner beast

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Speaker 2: that helps with what imagination.

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Speaker 3: I thought you were going to read some articles where

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Speaker 3: it said child robs a bank.

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Speaker 2: Because he was child jumps off building why I was bored?

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Speaker 2: So I want to read a couple of the headlines here.

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Speaker 2: So we've got the Childmind Institute saying the benefits of boredom.

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Speaker 2: We've got the Raising Children Network. This is the big

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Speaker 2: government sponsored website saying boredom is fantastic for children's play,

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Speaker 2: say parenting experts. They didn't talk to me about that one.

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Speaker 2: The New York Times says, let kids get bored, it's

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Speaker 2: good for them. The school run dot com says why

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Speaker 2: boredom is good for your child parent dot com five

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Speaker 2: ways boredom makes your kid more awesome. PBS boredom isn't

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Speaker 2: a bad thing for kids. The Resilience Project. Oh my goodness,

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Speaker 2: this guy's seriously, they should know better why it's good

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Speaker 2: for children to be bored Hugh Van kyleen Berg. I

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Speaker 2: would have thought that he would know better than that,

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Speaker 2: because there's all these people saying this, But I don't

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Speaker 2: think any of them are looking at what research shows.

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Speaker 2: There's just this conservative opinion that parents shouldn't have to

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Speaker 2: entertain their kids all day, so therefore the kids should

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Speaker 2: be bored and then they'll figure it out.

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Speaker 3: That's two totally different things. I'm not responsible for entertaining

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Speaker 3: my child all day, every day.

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Speaker 4: Correct.

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Speaker 3: That is one statement that's right. Children should be bored

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Speaker 3: and it's better for them. Totally totally different subject. It

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Speaker 3: might feel like semantics, but we're not actually talking about boredom. No,

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Speaker 3: if my job as a parent is not to entertain

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Speaker 3: my children, what is it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: My job is to provide an environment where there is

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Speaker 2: appropriate opportunity for enrichment so that my child can make wise, healthy,

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Speaker 2: useful decisions.

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Speaker 3: So I remember sitting in one of our children's teacher's

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Speaker 3: office one day because I was really concerned about my child.

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Speaker 3: She'd gone from being extremely curious.

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Speaker 2: When you say my child, do you mean one of

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Speaker 2: the ones that we should Okay, thank you, Okay.

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Speaker 3: I was really worried because she'd gone from being such

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Speaker 3: a curious learner to literally being apathetic about anything. She

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Speaker 3: didn't want to do her homework, as in assignments that

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Speaker 3: she was doing, she was quite happy to just copywr

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Speaker 3: he friends, which like she just literally had kind of

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Speaker 3: thrown the towel in when it came to curiosity and learning.

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Speaker 3: I sat down with the teacher and I explained the

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Speaker 3: situation and said that I was really concerned. She looked

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Speaker 3: at me and said, I'm just her teacher. If your

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Speaker 3: child doesn't want to learn, I can't make her.

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Speaker 4: I remember the conversation.

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Speaker 3: I was speechless because she can't make my child learn.

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Speaker 3: She does have that one right. Yeah, But as a

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Speaker 3: teacher or as a parent, my job is to provide

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Speaker 3: an environment that actually encourages learning. Yeah, supports that, that

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Speaker 3: facilitates it, that really encourages that inquiry of learning.

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Speaker 4: That's the job.

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Speaker 3: It's not about me entertaining them, but it's about providing

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Speaker 3: them with the things so that when they find themselves

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Speaker 3: in a position where they don't have anything to do,

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Speaker 3: there is something there that goes hello.

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Speaker 2: I struggle with the departure from a reality here, like,

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Speaker 2: have we forgotten what we were like when we were kids?

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Speaker 2: When you were bored as a child. I'm sure that

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Speaker 2: you were really wise and did some really nice things

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Speaker 2: from time to time, But were there times where you

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Speaker 2: were a little bit less than ideal when you were bored?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I put my finger in my mum's jam seals right,

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Speaker 3: What else did I do?

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Speaker 4: You know what I got in trouble when I was bored.

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Speaker 2: I went and got a can of red spray paint

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Speaker 2: and found buildings to deface with that red spray paint.

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Speaker 2: And once I'd done that, I came home and we had.

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Speaker 4: Like a log I don't know, a log wall.

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Speaker 2: A log retaining wall. And I used that red spray

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Speaker 2: paint on the retaining wall at home, like my kind

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Speaker 2: of dumb. Really, my parents found that but white because

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Speaker 2: I was bored. I think about the one of our kids.

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Speaker 3: She didn't she didn't do anything major. But I was

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Speaker 3: doing some spray painting for a craft project.

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Speaker 4: And she spray painted the car. No, she did. She

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Speaker 4: spray painted one of our cars.

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Speaker 3: Did she really?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the gold spray paint.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, this was black?

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Speaker 4: Oh okay, different one. Yeah. So one of our kids

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Speaker 4: spray painted one of our cars because she was bored.

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Speaker 3: She spray painted the whole side of.

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Speaker 4: The wheely bin. No, that's right. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: As a teenager when I was bored with my mates

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Speaker 2: and we did how many.

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Speaker 3: Times did you set fire to your us?

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Speaker 2: I certainly had lit fires noodie runs. I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 2: We were in Yak Donalds and we used to do

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Speaker 2: this thing that we called issuing the girks, I mean,

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Speaker 2: delinquent behavior. This is horrendous. I was not a good teenager.

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Speaker 2: I've made no secret of that. But we would sit

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Speaker 2: in yack Donald's and we'd pull the gerkins out of

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Speaker 2: the burgers and fling them at the windows as high

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Speaker 2: as we could so they would the sauce. They would

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Speaker 2: slide all the way down. We thought it was hilarious

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Speaker 2: because we were sitting there and we were bored. We

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Speaker 2: had nothing else to do. And this brings me to

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Speaker 2: my key point. Everyone who has written any of these

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Speaker 2: articles about how it's good for kids to be bored

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Speaker 2: because it promotes creativity, creativity to do. What if there

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Speaker 2: are no parameters, if there are no boundaries, if we're

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Speaker 2: not in an environment that has an appropriate level of

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Speaker 2: control and enrichment opportunity, the creativity can become pretty destructive.

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Speaker 2: And research I really want to talk about the data.

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Speaker 2: The data shows really really clearly that boredom is it

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Speaker 2: has a real dark side. Easily bored people so this

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Speaker 2: is when you have trait boredom. So some people get

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Speaker 2: bored more easily than others. Easily bored people are at

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Speaker 2: higher risk for depression. I let you think about it.

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Speaker 2: If you're bored, you actually feel depressed, and you start

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Speaker 2: looking for stimulation, you're a greater risk of anxiety as

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Speaker 2: you get older. If you maintain an ongoing approach to

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Speaker 2: boredom that is not healthy, you can end up with

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Speaker 2: drug addiction, alcoholism, compulsive gambling, eating disorders, hostility, anger, poor

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Speaker 2: social skills, bad grades, lousy work performance. I could go

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Speaker 2: on and on and on. There's so much data out

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Speaker 2: there that says boredom is bad, just bad.

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Speaker 3: Oh you said it's bad.

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Speaker 2: Not all the time. I want to be clear, not

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Speaker 2: all the time. But this craze that we've got with

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Speaker 2: mummy bloggers and instagram and TikTokers who like these are

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Speaker 2: not people who are qualified to be saying the things

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Speaker 2: that they're saying. They're writing articles for the New York

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Speaker 2: Times and for major news outlets and for some of

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Speaker 2: Australia's biggest platforms as well. They're not qualified to say

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Speaker 2: what they're saying, and if they looked at the data,

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Speaker 2: they would find that the research doesn't support it.

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking about how many times parents actually do a

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Speaker 3: high five after their kids have chosen an activity to

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Speaker 3: do because they were bored. Wonder how many parents and

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Speaker 3: how many homes are happier because their children were bored

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Speaker 3: and actually decided for themselves what they might do to

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Speaker 3: fill in that space. I actually think in those instances

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Speaker 3: not always. If we foster a sense of creativity, I

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Speaker 3: think that chances are our children might find some better ways,

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Speaker 3: better outlets to deal with that boredom. But if we

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Speaker 3: haven't fostered creativity, yes, then chances are our kids just

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Speaker 3: get in trouble for being naughty.

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Speaker 2: Right, that's pretty much it, not just that, but they will. Again,

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Speaker 2: the research is clear on this. They will make choices

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Speaker 2: that are not in there or other people's best interest.

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Speaker 2: Fascinating study published in twenty sixteen in Psychiatry Research in

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Speaker 2: this journal. They had sixty nine participants watch so we

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Speaker 2: call this mood induction. They had to watch a film fragment,

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Speaker 2: and they had three options. There was a really monotonous,

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Speaker 2: boring film to watch, like a documentary about Styx kind

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Speaker 2: of thing. Then there was a sad film fragment that

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Speaker 2: they could watch, and then there was just a neutral

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Speaker 2: film fragment. And if at any point, as they were

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Speaker 2: what this fragment of a movie or a documentary, if

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Speaker 2: they didn't like what was going on, or they wanted

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Speaker 2: some if it felt tedious to them, if they didn't

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Speaker 2: like what was happening. They could go on self administer

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Speaker 2: an electric shock, like there was a little electric shock.

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Speaker 4: Machine over in the corner. They can go and go this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, yeah, because it's self administered. Okay, So the

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Speaker 2: experimenter actually says, we just want you to watch this.

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Speaker 2: If at any point you are interested the little machine

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Speaker 2: over there, that's an electric shock machine, and you're welcome

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Speaker 2: to go on and give yourself an electric shock whenever

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Speaker 2: you want. Okay, Like it sounds it sounds ridiculous, It

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Speaker 2: sounds ridiculous to even consider it. But here's what the

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Speaker 2: research has found. Participants in the boredom condition self administered

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Speaker 2: more shocks and with higher intensity compared to both the

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Speaker 2: neutral and the sadness conditions. So if you're watching the

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Speaker 2: sad film Fragment Fragment, it had no effect at all

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Speaker 2: on the self administration of shocks. People who watch the

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Speaker 2: sad stuff just didn't shock themselves. But the effect of

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Speaker 2: boredom was such that people would say this is boring,

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Speaker 2: this is monotonous. I don't want to be here, and

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Speaker 2: they would go over and for the first fifteen minutes

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Speaker 2: they just give themselves electric shocks anything rather than watch

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Speaker 2: the boring documentary.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or kids that pick their scabs or bite their fingernails.

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Speaker 4: Or pick on their siblings, or pull name.

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Speaker 3: Into furniture anything. We've got outdoor couch. It's got fabric

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Speaker 3: cushions and it's been sitting in the sun for a

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Speaker 3: couple of years now, and the fabric has started to

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Speaker 3: get a few little holes in it. And over the

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Speaker 3: last few weeks, I've noticed that the holes have gotten

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Speaker 3: bigger and we're losing pieces. It started off with just

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Speaker 3: a strip, and now there's another strip, and you ask everybody,

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Speaker 3: and nobody's done anything because they were just doing what

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Speaker 3: they're bored.

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Speaker 2: I want to read one more of these two because

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Speaker 2: it just emphasizes this so much. The experiment was simple.

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Speaker 2: All these participants had to do was enter an empty

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Speaker 2: room and sit down and think for between six and

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Speaker 2: fifteen minutes. But they didn't have their phone with them,

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Speaker 2: they didn't have a book, there was no screen, there

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Speaker 2: was nothing. They were literally just there on their own.

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Speaker 2: In fact, even when participants were told, hey, we want

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Speaker 2: to give you some preparation times so you know what's coming,

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Speaker 2: so you know what the solitude is going to be, like,

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Speaker 2: we just want you to know what's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: So the research is. What they also did was they

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Speaker 2: hooked up a little electric shock machine. It was a

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Speaker 2: little device containing a nine vault battery, you know the

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Speaker 2: little rectangular ones, and if you lick it, you get

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Speaker 2: that charge through your tongue. And once again, the researchers

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Speaker 2: found that most of the people who were in the

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Speaker 2: room got so bored sitting on their own for between

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Speaker 2: six and fifteen minutes, that they went over and gave

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Speaker 2: themselves electric shocks on average seven times. One person gave

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Speaker 2: himself one hundred and ninety electric shoit.

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Speaker 4: Over a fifteen minute period.

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Speaker 2: Now that's obviously a particularly unusual data point, but I

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Speaker 2: just I want to highlight it's not good for a

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Speaker 2: kids to be board. So what are we supposed to do.

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Speaker 2: We need to give some answers, and we've got about

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Speaker 2: two minutes to do it, maybe three minutes to do it.

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Speaker 2: Now that I think that I've clearly made my point,

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Speaker 2: stop saying make the kids bored.

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Speaker 4: What do kids need? Instead?

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Speaker 3: I read an article recently that said, if your backyard

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Speaker 3: looks like a junk yard, you're doing great. And it's

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Speaker 3: just a backyard full of loose parts. You know, you've

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Speaker 3: got bits of PVC piping and tires and planks of wood,

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Speaker 3: things that the kids can actually move around the yard

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Speaker 3: and have fun with. They're actually creating, they're doing things,

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Speaker 3: you know, making little shoots put in there. Just there's

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Speaker 3: so many different things you can do. But it's about

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Speaker 3: providing an environment and a structure that allows them to

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Speaker 3: utilize their curiosity great.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that we want to do is we

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Speaker 2: want to encourage the development of competence. So give them

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Speaker 2: things that help them to grow. Something that you've been

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Speaker 2: doing a lot lately with the kids is drawing, and

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Speaker 2: their artwork is just it's coming along beautifully. When they're bored,

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Speaker 2: you'll sit down and draw with them. And here's the thing.

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Speaker 2: Being in relationship is so important. And if you can't

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Speaker 2: be in the relationship with the kids because you've got

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Speaker 2: work or you've got other the commitments so you've just

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Speaker 2: got to get the dinner cooked or get the house

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Speaker 2: tidy or whatever. Giving them some opportunity to be in

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Speaker 2: relationship with someone else, whether it's a neighbor down the road,

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Speaker 2: and they get to play in the backyard or on

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Speaker 2: the balcony or in the park, or whether they're going

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Speaker 2: to jump onto FaceTime and talk to one of their

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Speaker 2: cousins overseas or in a state or in a different suburb,

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Speaker 2: giving them an opportunity to be in a relationship with

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Speaker 2: others so important for helping to overcome boredom.

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Speaker 3: One of the things recently that has become a really

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Speaker 3: big part of miss nine year old's life is a

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Speaker 3: big whiteboard.

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Speaker 4: Yes, as a white markers. I couldn't believe you. You've

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Speaker 4: shown up.

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Speaker 2: We don't have anywhere to hang a whiteboard, but you've

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Speaker 2: shown up with these whiteboards that are like i'd know, well,

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Speaker 2: I've had them.

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Speaker 3: You've just been hiding behind the couch, right, I haven't

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Speaker 3: had a need for them for a while. Yes, but

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Speaker 3: they found them the other day and she has pulled

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Speaker 3: out all of the whiteboard markers, and literally at night time,

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Speaker 3: she's refusing to go to bed, which is not fun,

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Speaker 3: but she's refusing to go to bed because she just

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Speaker 3: wants to draw. She'll write stories on there, she'll draw

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Speaker 3: pictures on there. She's just having so much fun being

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Speaker 3: creative in a totally different way.

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Speaker 2: These aren't necessarily the answers for your child. I guess

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Speaker 2: the main point that I wanted to make was if

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Speaker 2: you read an article where somebody says it's good for

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Speaker 2: your kids to be bored, I think that it's worth

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Speaker 2: questioning who are they, why are they writing at, what

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Speaker 2: evidence they're using to support it, Even if it comes

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Speaker 2: from a well established, typically well resourced website, Just have

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Speaker 2: a look to see what data they've got to support it,

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Speaker 2: because the research just is not there to support the

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Speaker 2: idea that our kids need to be bored.

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Speaker 3: It's not healthy as a parent for us to have

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Speaker 3: to step our children through step by step of every day.

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Speaker 3: They need to have space, sure, but what is our

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Speaker 3: responsibility is to provide them with different things. One of

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Speaker 3: the best things that we've done over the years is

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Speaker 3: to not have all of the toys out at one time.

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Speaker 3: They don't have access to everything that's on offer, so

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Speaker 3: switching things out regularly will really help so that things

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Speaker 3: are fresh and they're exciting. You might even, you know,

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Speaker 3: to kind of spur excitement, place the blocks out in

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Speaker 3: a different part of the house and have extra bits

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Speaker 3: and pieces that would go with that that you wouldn't normally.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you add straws, so.

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Speaker 4: What you're saying is a bit of a variety.

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Speaker 3: Just change things up, put the blocks out on the lawn,

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Speaker 3: give them a holy for sheets to throw over the trees,

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Speaker 3: and who knows what they'll come up with.

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Speaker 2: I think we've slain that sacred cow of boredom the

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Speaker 2: mummy blog world, and that is that it's good for

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Speaker 2: you kids to be bored. It's not job done.

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Speaker 3: I think it's really good for parents to be bored,

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Speaker 3: though you do.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we don't have time for this.

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Speaker 3: Can I be bored?

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Speaker 2: You just don't have time. You just want to sit

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Speaker 2: there and have the opportunity, just have the feeling.

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Speaker 4: No, I getcha. The Happy Family podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is

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Speaker 2: our executive producer and if you want more information about

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Speaker 2: how to make your family happier and less bored, you

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Speaker 2: can find it all at happy families dot com.

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Speaker 4: Today you