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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers Now.

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Speaker 1: In season one of Parental Guidance, I created a bit

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Speaker 1: of a national controversy. There were national news articles written

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Speaker 1: in some of the online publications about one line in

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Speaker 1: particular that I shared.

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Speaker 2: Hudson, did you throw your throng at him?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Can you look at him and apologize? Sure? As all right?

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Speaker 2: It doesn't make it better if both of you do

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Speaker 2: it to each other. All right, all right, let's go.

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Speaker 2: Come on.

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Speaker 1: I want to say something kind of provocative. Forcing children

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Speaker 1: to apologize is teaching children to lie. Controversy today, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about whether or not we should be making our

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Speaker 1: kids apologize when they do the wrong thing to ask

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Speaker 1: to their peers, to their siblings, or maybe they just

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Speaker 1: break something in the house they're really emotional about it.

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Speaker 1: Should we be making our kids apologize?

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Speaker 2: You asked this question. I go straight back to a

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Speaker 2: story that you've told multiple times that just so clearly

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Speaker 2: depicts this in action.

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Speaker 1: This is the one where I fought with my sister

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Speaker 1: in the kitchen. Yes, yes, all right, Shall I tell it?

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Speaker 2: Tell it?

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Speaker 1: I'm about fifteen years old, I've got a lot of

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Speaker 1: bad attitude. My sister is four years younger than me.

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Speaker 1: She's there for about eleven. In our home, we didn't

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Speaker 1: watch Neighbors or Home and Away or The Simpsons because

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Speaker 1: of all the bad attitude and the characters and the relationships.

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Speaker 2: I really didn't need any any extra.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it made any difference whether we watched

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Speaker 1: it or not. I had a bad relationship with my sister, okay,

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Speaker 1: and so we also didn't use words like stupid in

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Speaker 1: our house. That was the s word. And I got

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Speaker 1: really cranky with my sister in the kitchen one day

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Speaker 1: and I called her not just stupid, I called her

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Speaker 1: a stupid idiot, double whammy. So Mum heard it. She

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Speaker 1: was in the living room. She came into the kitchen said, justin,

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Speaker 1: we don't speak like that in this home. You need

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Speaker 1: to apologize to your sister. She literally forced an apology

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Speaker 1: out of her fifteen year old son, who had a

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Speaker 1: bad attitude. And so in apologizing to my sister for

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Speaker 1: calling her a stupid idiot, I literally said, fine, Karina,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you're a stupid idiot.

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Speaker 2: It's really bad. I'm laughing, but it's just this is.

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Speaker 2: This is why I love this story when I think

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Speaker 2: about the times where I have been forced to make

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Speaker 2: an apology, whether it be by a real life enforcer

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Speaker 2: or my own internal enforcer. Yeah. Yeah. When I feel

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Speaker 2: like this is I'm supposed to do this, it leaves

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Speaker 2: me in a victim mentality because I've been done wrong

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Speaker 2: by This is not It's got nothing to do with me.

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Speaker 2: This is all about the other person. So all my

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Speaker 2: focus and energy is on what a stupid idiot in

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Speaker 2: your words, the other person is for hurting me or

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Speaker 2: doing wrong by me. Right, I don't learn anything through

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Speaker 2: the process because I'm not doing any internal thinking. I'm

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Speaker 2: not looking at how I might have contributed to this situation.

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Speaker 2: It is all about the other person. But on top

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Speaker 2: of that, if I'm being enforced by somebody else, not

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Speaker 2: only does it rupture my relationship with the person I'm

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Speaker 2: saying sorry too, because I don't believe that I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sorry, that's my fault, trouble, That's exactly right.

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Speaker 2: It ruptures my relationship with the person, and in this

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Speaker 2: case an adult in a child, it ruptures my relationship

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Speaker 2: with them. And on top of that that whole process

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Speaker 2: if I'm not a fifteen year old teenage boy with

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Speaker 2: heaps of attitude, and I'm more of a timid person.

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Speaker 2: What I learned through the process is that in order

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Speaker 2: to make life pleasant for everybody else, I need to

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Speaker 2: please other people.

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Speaker 1: I like the words that you use, the external enforcer

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Speaker 1: or the internal enforcer. I wasn't going to talk about

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Speaker 1: this to you use these phrases, but I want to

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Speaker 1: go back to something that I wrote in the most

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Speaker 1: important paarenting book that I believe exists on the planet.

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Speaker 1: It's called The Parenting Revolution. I wrote it a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, and I just wish every parent could

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Speaker 1: read it. In that book, I talk about a motivation continuum,

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Speaker 1: and at the very shallow end of motivation. No one

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Speaker 1: wants to swim in shallow motivational waters, right You want

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Speaker 1: to be in a deep water where you have fun.

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Speaker 1: But a very shallow end is this thing called extrinsic motivation.

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Speaker 1: Extrinsic motivation is when you do something because somebody else

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Speaker 1: is making you do it, either because you're going to

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Speaker 1: get a reward or a punishment. So a forced apology

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Speaker 1: in that instance is literally an extrinsic enforcer. But you

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Speaker 1: also use the term internal enforcer. The next level of

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Speaker 1: motivation on this motivation continuum is called introjected motivation. Now,

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Speaker 1: I know I'm getting a bit sciency, but that's precisely

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Speaker 1: what's going on here. No one's making you apologize. You're

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Speaker 1: doing it because you feel like you have to. There's

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Speaker 1: an internal police officer who's sort of berating you. It's

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Speaker 1: your conscience. You've got to do it. You've got to

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Speaker 1: do it. But you're not there yet, morally or mentally

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Speaker 1: or psychologically. You're just not there. And so the apology

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Speaker 1: gets spat across the room. The apology does not come

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Speaker 1: across the sincere and neither you nor the person receiving

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Speaker 1: the apology feel like hugging at the end of this

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Speaker 1: and saying, oh, yeah, everything's all better now, So glad,

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Speaker 1: so glad I got the apology.

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Speaker 2: And while I sit in that space, though, what actually

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Speaker 2: happens is I feel more and more justified to be

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Speaker 2: angry and hurt.

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Speaker 1: Right right, And then of course, and they get the apology,

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Speaker 1: they get the apology that's been spat across the room,

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Speaker 1: and they think, hmm, I was right to do that

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Speaker 1: to them in the first place, because they're really that

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Speaker 1: sort of a person.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And so what happens is, instead of

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Speaker 2: me actually feeling soft and kind towards that person, my

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Speaker 2: anger and my resentment builds.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now I want to add some nuance here. I

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Speaker 1: think that we both sit on the same side of

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Speaker 1: the fence on this one. Forced apologies are generally ineffective. However,

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Speaker 1: I want to lean on some research and a little

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Speaker 1: bit of so I guess an alternative view. There's this

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Speaker 1: thing called theory of mind. I've talked about it a

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Speaker 1: lot on the podcast. It develops in children somewhere around

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Speaker 1: four or five or six. In fact, recent research suggests

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Speaker 1: that it might be later, it might be around seven

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Speaker 1: or even eight. And there is some research that shows

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Speaker 1: that when an under seven child receives an apology, regardless

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Speaker 1: of how they receive it, they're actually pretty good with it.

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Speaker 1: They're like, okay, good they apologize. Now, if the apology

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Speaker 1: is really explicitly forced, if it's a really unkind apology,

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Speaker 1: like you're one, yeah, then even under sevens don't tend

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Speaker 1: to take to them very well. But as a general rule,

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Speaker 1: if you haven't got theory of mind, that is, if

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Speaker 1: you're a parent of very young children and they do

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Speaker 1: the wrong thing, you could probably say you need to apologize,

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Speaker 1: and they will spit an apology out at their sibling

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Speaker 1: and everything will actually be okay. So I just want

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Speaker 1: to acknowledge that because the research there kids under seven

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Speaker 1: really do just want to hear sol. Whether it's a

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Speaker 1: prompted apology or whether it's a spontaneous apology, it is

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Speaker 1: usually going to help the relationship. As they develop more

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Speaker 1: cognitive capacity, from about the age of six or seven onwards,

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Speaker 1: those prompted apologies become less and less meaningful, particularly when

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Speaker 1: it's quite clear, quite obvious that this is not an

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Speaker 1: intrinsically motivated apology, that is, it's an introjected or an

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Speaker 1: externally prompted apology.

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Speaker 2: So then my question is, before the age of six,

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Speaker 2: should we be encouraging our kids to apologize.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to just say no. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think it's a pretty low stakes conversation. Honestly, when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about the younger kids, I really think it's low stakes.

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Speaker 1: If you want to, fine, do it, fine, fine if

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Speaker 1: you have to, but you're not setting yourself up for

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Speaker 1: success later because then you kind of get in this habit,

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Speaker 1: this pattern where you think this is the way it

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Speaker 1: should be. And as the kids do get older and

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Speaker 1: develop more cognitive capacity and complexity, the apologies become a

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Speaker 1: little bit more tricky and you don't know where to go.

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Speaker 1: So I just think with these things start early and

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Speaker 1: it gets easier.

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Speaker 2: As you're talking. I'm just thinking this through. Right, You've

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Speaker 2: got children, they're young, they don't harbor resentment the same

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Speaker 2: way we do, so asking there or encouraging them to apologize,

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Speaker 2: Like you said, it's low stakes, there's not the huge

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Speaker 2: amount in it. But as they get to that point

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Speaker 2: where you can start to see there's a sticking point,

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Speaker 2: isn't that the perfect time to then start to have

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Speaker 2: conversations around you know, in the past mummies asked you

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Speaker 2: to apologize. I can tell you're actually still really really

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Speaker 2: angry about this. What should we do?

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Speaker 1: This is when we move further into deeper motivational waters.

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Speaker 1: Along that motivational continuum that I write about in the

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Speaker 1: Parenting Revolution, we're moving into identified or integrated motivation. So

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Speaker 1: identified motivation is where you say, yeah, I can see

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Speaker 1: the value in it. Integrated is where you say, this

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Speaker 1: is pretty much who I am as a person. I'm

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Speaker 1: a person who wants to repair and make amends. See

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Speaker 1: this argument that we should be forcing our kids to apologize,

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Speaker 1: it's really a Number one, I'd say it's useless because

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Speaker 1: it promotes empty apologies. Number two, I'd say it's unnecessary

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Speaker 1: because there are better ways. But ultimately, why is the

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Speaker 1: child apologizing when it's under duress, where it's coerced apology.

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Speaker 1: They're apologizing because they want to escape punishment. That's really it.

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Speaker 1: It's an extrinsically motivated.

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Speaker 2: Apology, and goes back to my conversation around this desire

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Speaker 2: and need to people please.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but you know what, they're not developing. They're

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Speaker 1: not actually developing the empathy that we want them to develop,

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Speaker 1: mainly because of a lack of cognitive capacity, but also

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Speaker 1: because it's now being forced. They don't actually feel sorry.

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Speaker 2: But on top of that, I'm sorry, I'm cutting in.

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Speaker 2: But on top of that, they don't feel seen, hurd

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Speaker 2: or valued either. Because if you're enforcing me to say sorry,

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Speaker 2: you don't see the hurt, you don't see what's happened

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Speaker 2: to me, you don't understand what I'm going through. All

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Speaker 2: you see is that I've done something and it's hurt

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Speaker 2: that person, but you didn't see what happened that led

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Speaker 2: me to that, and therefore I feel invisible.

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Speaker 1: You said it before. It makes a victim of the

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Speaker 1: person who is the perpetrator. Yeah, big problem there. Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: when we do that, it stops them recognizing how their

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Speaker 1: actions are affecting others because now our actions are affecting them,

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Speaker 1: and it stops them from repairing. You see, effective repair,

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Speaker 1: true repair. Making amends is an active process, and it

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Speaker 1: works best when we're in that deeper end of the

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Speaker 1: motivation continuum. I think it's worth unpacking briefly why kids

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Speaker 1: don't want to apologize. What's your take on that?

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Speaker 2: If I'm apologizing for something, then I have to admit

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Speaker 2: that I'm wrong, And if I admit that I'm wrong,

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Speaker 2: then in my mind, I'm not a good person.

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Speaker 1: Right right, What I'm hearing you say is an apology

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Speaker 1: comes down to, in some ways, a level of personal pride.

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Speaker 1: For me to apologize means I have to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: in that moment, I was not at my best, I

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Speaker 1: was not who I should be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and as a seven year old, I'm not thinking

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Speaker 2: that right Right? What I'm thinking is I'm trying so

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Speaker 2: hard to be a good person and now I'm getting

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Speaker 2: in trouble for it, and that clearly means I'm not

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Speaker 2: a good person.

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Speaker 1: I have three other reasons on top of your very

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Speaker 1: very clear and important reason. Number One, I'm still frustrated

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Speaker 1: at the other person. I'm just not ready to apologize

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Speaker 1: to them. They offended me, they upset me, or whatever

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Speaker 1: it is, I'm still upset about the thing. Number Two,

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Speaker 1: I might be embarrassed. Let's say I broke a window,

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Speaker 1: or I said the wrong thing to somebody it got

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Speaker 1: blurted out, or somebody took a screenshot of something that

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Speaker 1: they weren't supposed to take, like, I'm embarrassed about that.

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Speaker 1: And number three, I'm scared what happens if I apologize.

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Speaker 1: There's some research that shows that adults really really worry

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Speaker 1: about apologizing as well, because number one, they're worried about

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Speaker 1: their ramifications, and number two, they find it stressful because

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Speaker 1: they feel like it's going to be humiliating. So that

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Speaker 1: research shows that when they apologize, it's not nearly as

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Speaker 1: stressful or humiliating as they thought it would be, and

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Speaker 1: they get the relief of the apology, but of course

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Speaker 1: the apology has to be meant.

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Speaker 2: And if you round all of that out for me,

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Speaker 2: it comes back to this, we don't like to be uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: All of this is about being uncomfortable and getting used

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Speaker 2: to the feeling of being uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Which is kind of an argument for why you could

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Speaker 1: get your kids to apologize, right, because that discomfort it

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Speaker 1: helps them to tolerate the discomfort and also to feel

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Speaker 1: the relief. But I mean, being forgiven feels good assuming

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Speaker 1: you do get forgiveness. Sometimes the apology doesn't land quite

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Speaker 1: the way we want it to. The argument for apologizing

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Speaker 1: is forgiveness is nice. Kids can learn that frustration tolerance

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Speaker 1: and that discomfort tolerance, and they also do learn to

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Speaker 1: take responsibility. Although well, that's kind of an old school

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Speaker 1: argument I would argue against it. I don't think they

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Speaker 1: learn responsibility. I think they learn to be frightened of us.

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Speaker 1: But we do need to wrap this up. What are

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Speaker 1: we supposed to do when the kids do the wrong thing?

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Speaker 1: Must they apologize? Do we not do anything at all?

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Speaker 1: Do we give it space? How do we figure this out?

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Speaker 2: I think what's really important is that as we allow

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Speaker 2: our children the autonomy to work through these challenges. We

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Speaker 2: help them to recognize that sometimes time is needed, and

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Speaker 2: that in that space of time, the person who's been

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Speaker 2: hurt is able to let go of their anger and

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Speaker 2: their hurt, and the person who's done the hurt is

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Speaker 2: able to recognize the part that they're played in that hurt.

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Speaker 2: And when we enforce it, we actually cut the learning

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Speaker 2: process off. We don't give either person time to actually

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Speaker 2: work through that in a positive way. But it requires

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Speaker 2: a fair bit of scaffolding, especially in those early years.

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Speaker 1: We've got to be there to support them. Right, So

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Speaker 1: two things from me. Number one, we've got to model it.

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Speaker 1: We've got to actually show our kids how to sincerely

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Speaker 1: apologize when we get it wrong, either with one another

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Speaker 1: or with the kids themselves. A sincere apology has four components.

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Speaker 1: Number one, I'm sorry. Number two, because that's where we

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Speaker 1: say because I did this to you, So.

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Speaker 2: It's not because you did this which made me do this.

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Speaker 1: No. In fact, one of my sisters got really cranky

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Speaker 1: at one of our kids one time, and then she

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Speaker 1: realized she'd done the wrong thing and she apologized and

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Speaker 1: she said, I'm sorry, I got mad at you. But

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Speaker 1: if you hadn't done that, it wouldn't have happened. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, no, that's not one an apology. No one

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Speaker 1: was forcing it. At least she said sorry, but it

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Speaker 1: was an ugly apology. So number one, I'm sorry, Number

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Speaker 1: two because I did this number three and it made

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Speaker 1: you feel that. In other words, I have reflected and

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Speaker 1: can see how my actions affected you. And then the

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Speaker 1: fourth and most important thing, will you forgive me? Oh gosh,

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Speaker 1: they're important words. That's how you know someone's really sincere

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Speaker 1: when they are so willing to be humbled that they

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Speaker 1: ask you to forgive them. They put the power of

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Speaker 1: the relationship in your hand. That is a profoundly good apology.

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Speaker 2: Over the years, we have used this structure and process

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Speaker 2: with our kids as we've made mistakes as parents, and

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Speaker 2: there's just something so beautiful when our kids recognize the

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Speaker 2: part they've played in a difficult situation and they come

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Speaker 2: and ask those words, will you forgive me? I just

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Speaker 2: I love that they're able to, through their own cognition

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Speaker 2: and introspection, recognize that they've done something that has ruptured

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Speaker 2: a relationship, and they're desirous to reconnect and make that right.

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Speaker 2: But it takes them seeing us be humble. This is

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Speaker 2: what it comes down to, the words humble, right, It's

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Speaker 2: letting go of our pride, it's letting go of the

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Speaker 2: acknowledgment that we're going to get it right all the time,

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Speaker 2: getting down to their level and saying I'm really sorry,

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Speaker 2: I got it wrong today and I know what made

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Speaker 2: you feel sad.

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Speaker 1: Will you forgive it?

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Speaker 2: Will forgive me?

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Speaker 1: We could do with those four words a lot more

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Speaker 1: in the world right now. So that's number one. Where

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Speaker 1: there's been a rupture, there has to be repair, and

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Speaker 1: when we model it, especially with that framework, it makes

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Speaker 1: a big difference. The second thing, and you've emphasized this,

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Speaker 1: but I really want to put a great, big red

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Speaker 1: mark under this so that everyone remembers that giving kids

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to reflect on their actions with our gentle

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Speaker 1: support and involvement leads to much better apologies because our

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Speaker 1: children do want good relationships with those around.

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Speaker 2: Them and much better learning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry if we went over time, but we hope

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Speaker 1: we've been helpful here. Should you force your kids to apologize?

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Speaker 1: The research is ambiguous. I say no, but they do

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Speaker 1: need to learn to apologize. The happy families podcast is

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Speaker 1: produced by Justin Ruhan from Bridge Media. We really hope

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Speaker 1: this has been a helpful conversation for you in your home.

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Speaker 1: If you would like more information about making your family happier,

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Speaker 1: please check out Happy Families dot com dot you, where

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Speaker 1: we have our brand new membership, including content for parents

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Speaker 1: to work with their kids. It's called Felt Fostering Emotional

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Speaker 1: Learning Together. It's amazing content, it's interactive, it's engaging, the

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Speaker 1: kids love it, and it's all available now as part

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Speaker 1: of our Happy Families membership at happyfamilies dot com dot

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Speaker 1: a