Speaker 1: Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris, and
Speaker 1: on this podcast, I'll be going behind the scenes with
Speaker 1: the biggest players in television. Some housekeeping right at the start.
Speaker 1: Please like and share the podcast. I love hearing your feedback,
Speaker 1: and that's a huge part of gaining a wider audience
Speaker 1: of people who also love juicy stories from behind the
Speaker 1: scenes of television. Speaking of juicy, I really love Heather
Speaker 1: McDonald's Juicy Scoops podcast. You really have to check her out.
Speaker 1: She's a little nuts, but if you love Bravo and
Speaker 1: Housewives content, I think that podcast is right up your ally.
Speaker 1: This week has been a massive week in television. We
Speaker 1: saw the return of Celebrity Apprentice on Channel nine, and
Speaker 1: I have to admit I'm really liking Matha from Maths
Speaker 1: when I didn't actually watch that series of Maths she
Speaker 1: was in. But I also love David from Survivor on
Speaker 1: that show. Both of them are a little full of themselves,
Speaker 1: but I think that's part of the reason why it's
Speaker 1: so much fun to watch. Then an exciting week on
Speaker 1: Binge with the Friends Reunion, and I also saw a
Speaker 1: sneak preview of the final episode of mayor of e Town.
Speaker 1: But I don't want to say too much about that
Speaker 1: except it's very good. Both were really good in very
Speaker 1: different ways. I wished some of those friends actors hadn't
Speaker 1: had so much plastic surgery because it was a tad creepy,
Speaker 1: But the reunion was worth the wait after a few delays.
Speaker 1: My favorite part was just seeing them all walk back
Speaker 1: onto that really iconic set today's episode. As a cracker,
Speaker 1: I have Aaron Sedman. He is an American creator, developer,
Speaker 1: documentary filmmaker and television producer. He is known for a
Speaker 1: number of non fiction television series and documentary feature films.
Speaker 1: You would have seen a fair chunk of his work
Speaker 1: over the years. I very much remembered his work with
Speaker 1: the Leah Remoni Scientology in The Aftermath series, which was brilliant.
Speaker 1: But a few of you would have seen Sedmund's work
Speaker 1: on the Paris Hilton documentary, which made a lot of
Speaker 1: noise last year in the media. This chat was arranged
Speaker 1: by Binge to support Selena plus Chef, which is a
Speaker 1: new cooking show on the network which has just launched
Speaker 1: series two. It's a really fun show with Selena Go
Speaker 1: as the host and for you fellow Australians. Curtistone is
Speaker 1: in episode one of series two and he is really awesome.
Speaker 1: On that episode, I felt very proud. So let's get started.
Speaker 1: I'd like to welcome you and Aaron Siedman to the podcast.
Speaker 2: Wow you went right for the controversial question. A program
Speaker 2: about our religion hosted by Miss Remony is doomed to
Speaker 2: be a cheap reality TV show. My producing partner thought
Speaker 2: I had totally ruined, like I was going to alienate Paris.
Speaker 1: Feel like ral thinks they know me. That's all right,
Speaker 1: that's fine.
Speaker 2: Who has an interesting story that maybe we don't know
Speaker 2: the totality of it.
Speaker 1: The winner of American Idol.
Speaker 2: This was the first time Selena appeared on camera in
Speaker 2: an unscripted television show. Hey it's Selena. As everyone probably
Speaker 2: knows by now, I'm not the best cook. It's really
Speaker 2: important to be ruthless in the development of your ideas.
Speaker 1: A you mated you Well.
Speaker 2: I'm doing good. Yeah. Happy. The world is reopening and
Speaker 2: getting back to normal. I'm not sure what it's like
Speaker 2: in Australia, but in the United States, people are generally speaking,
Speaker 2: getting their vaccinations and returning to life. Somewhat like it
Speaker 2: was before the pandemic.
Speaker 1: Well, interesting enough, we're going into a lockdown, which starts
Speaker 1: today in Melbourne. So we're going into a snap lockdown
Speaker 1: because there's actually just been an outright here.
Speaker 2: Wow, I didn't realize that the United States was doing
Speaker 2: so terribly, as you know, for so long. It's almost
Speaker 2: ironic that in the final endpoint of this pandemic, we're
Speaker 2: now emerging by getting all these shots and all these arms.
Speaker 2: I mean literally, that's just the story here. You wouldn't
Speaker 2: think that that would be our ending with such a terrible,
Speaker 2: disastrous experience really since the beginning of the pandemic. So
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. You guys are going in the lockdown and
Speaker 2: it is very uneven depending on the country in terms
Speaker 2: of how they're responding to COVID.
Speaker 1: Well, you know what is a good thing, though, I
Speaker 1: will just continue watching your work because I've been rewatching
Speaker 1: and watching you know, so much of your work, knowing
Speaker 1: I was going to have this interview with today. Of course,
Speaker 1: I watched Selena and Chef. I've watched both series. I
Speaker 1: rewatched because i'd seen it before Scientology in the aftermath,
Speaker 1: but I was able to go and watch Minefield to Classified,
Speaker 1: the Pitch Nights Talk. I've just been watching so much
Speaker 1: of it, so what I haven't finished, I can now
Speaker 1: keep watching because I'm locked in my house.
Speaker 2: There's the poster for the Pitch. That is amazing that
Speaker 2: you've had all the time to watch all of those shows.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for doing that.
Speaker 1: I just don't understand how you might feel about all
Speaker 1: of this, because you know, how do you comprehend looking
Speaker 1: back at such a masterclass of documentary filmmaking.
Speaker 2: Well, it's in some ways, I think our work has
Speaker 2: evolved with the genre itself. So you know, if you
Speaker 2: go back to the early days of unscripted television, was
Speaker 2: somewhat rudimentary and it didn't incorporate a lot of the
Speaker 2: filmmaking that we now come to expect with nonfiction projects.
Speaker 2: And so I like to look at my filmography with
Speaker 2: the sense of as the genre evolved and grew, my
Speaker 2: work and my colleagues work was able to kind of
Speaker 2: grow with it and hopefully elevate it and push the
Speaker 2: genre to those heights that we're now at today. I mean,
Speaker 2: it is really remarkable the filmmaking that's happening in the
Speaker 2: nonfiction space. Really is as good as most of the
Speaker 2: scripted work, I would argue in terms of the storytelling
Speaker 2: and the filmmaking tools, the direction, the shooting, really every
Speaker 2: aspect of it has come to a place where it's
Speaker 2: respected across the industry and major Hollywood stars A listers
Speaker 2: are pining to be a part of the nonfiction content business,
Speaker 2: and that you know, I'm the recipient of incoming calls
Speaker 2: from agents and managers of real bona fide celebrities who
Speaker 2: want to be a part of what's happening in the
Speaker 2: nonfiction business. And that's really exciting and that opens up
Speaker 2: so many more opportunities than we could have imagined just
Speaker 2: five years ago.
Speaker 1: I mean, you've really collected all of this storytelling and
Speaker 1: the artist storytelling at a point where we are absolutely
Speaker 1: there's more of a thirst for this type of content.
Speaker 1: You know, I can imagine if you were here in Australia,
Speaker 1: is there an Australian person that you would love to
Speaker 1: work with?
Speaker 2: So we don't really think of it in terms of territory.
Speaker 2: We just think of like, what's the best story. And
Speaker 2: I've been pitched a couple of stories that are set
Speaker 2: in Australia or about particular Australian characters, and to us,
Speaker 2: it's is there a viable path to selling this? Is
Speaker 2: it a is it good? Is it a good story?
Speaker 2: Can we do a good job with it? Can we
Speaker 2: be additive to the telling of that story? And so
Speaker 2: that's what's great is that sort of the borders are
Speaker 2: eroding on the types of stories that we can tell,
Speaker 2: because whether it's HBO, Max or Netflix or take your pick,
Speaker 2: all of the streamers really want to be everywhere in
Speaker 2: every territory. Incidentally, I did happen to see on TV
Speaker 2: the other night a movie called Breaker Morant, which is
Speaker 2: not known so well in the United States, but I
Speaker 2: imagine is known much better in Australia, and that is
Speaker 2: a fascinating story.
Speaker 1: Breaker Morant, a tale of honor and injustice from the
Speaker 1: director of The Getting of Wisdom.
Speaker 2: If these three Australians have to be sacrificed helping about
Speaker 2: a peace conference, small applies to pay. I can't imagine
Speaker 2: the Boer War being a hot topic for a documentary necessarily,
Speaker 2: but my point is every country has an amazingly comp
Speaker 2: lex rich fabric of stories and history that can be
Speaker 2: mined from for great documentaries.
Speaker 1: I want to see Nicole Kidman documentary. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: I was watching The Glamour of Paris and her documentary
Speaker 1: and how well that was put together, and I just
Speaker 1: loved it. And then because I'm a huge Nicole Kidmen fan,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that'd be a good one.
Speaker 2: You know. It's kind of a good point the celebrity documentaries,
Speaker 2: these sort of biopics, if you will, your brain does
Speaker 2: start start to go there. You start to think, like,
Speaker 2: who has an interesting story that maybe we don't know
Speaker 2: the totality of it, that would be worthy of a
Speaker 2: documentary treatment, And maybe Nicole Kidman is someone we should
Speaker 2: really think about. You know. We did produce the Lea
Speaker 2: Remedy Scientology series and learned a fair amount about mister
Speaker 2: Tom Cruise, so maybe there is an interesting chapter of
Speaker 2: Nicole's story that we don't We're not completely to as
Speaker 2: of yet, but it does make you think about various
Speaker 2: celebrities and who might have a really good story to tell.
Speaker 2: I have found, incidentally, that not all celebrities make for
Speaker 2: good documentaries. And what was special about Paris was precisely
Speaker 2: the conceit of you think you know everything there is
Speaker 2: to know about her. But actually you don't, and you
Speaker 2: need to watch this film in order to appreciate and
Speaker 2: realize that. And that's really exciting. When you can find
Speaker 2: that and capture that and bottle that and then deliver
Speaker 2: that to a mass audience, that's really special.
Speaker 1: What does a day in the life of a continuous
Speaker 1: working producer executive producer look like for you? And like,
Speaker 1: how do you manage that?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, you're I'm tired all the time. I
Speaker 2: your permanent bags under my eyes, probably grayer at this
Speaker 2: age than I should be. So that's the less glamorous
Speaker 2: side of it. It's NonStop, you know. I think working
Speaker 2: really hard is a big part of it. You know,
Speaker 2: there's virtue to that and not to be taken lightly.
Speaker 2: To make one show requires a tremendous amount of effort,
Speaker 2: and you have to put the right team together and
Speaker 2: you have to rely and trust that team. And as
Speaker 2: you start to grow your slate and you're juggling multiple projects,
Speaker 2: you have to become a really good manager. So at
Speaker 2: a certain point, it's not just how creative can you be?
Speaker 2: Do you have a good idea, can you in a
Speaker 2: compelling way explain that idea to others? It's also about
Speaker 2: assembling really talented artists and artisans and being able to
Speaker 2: manage that, and then hiring other people to help you
Speaker 2: manage that, because the infrastructure and the machine just you know,
Speaker 2: in success, it grows and grows. So it's a high
Speaker 2: class problem, but high class problems, I've learned, are still problems,
Speaker 2: and you have to be able to manage a large
Speaker 2: slate of shows and human beings. And the key for
Speaker 2: us has always been quality control. So if you make
Speaker 2: twenty shows, if like eighteen of them are garbage, well
Speaker 2: it's not really worth it. Just make the two that
Speaker 2: are good. It's about making twenty shows really great and
Speaker 2: being able to deliver that consistently. Really requires a lot
Speaker 2: of stamina, a lot of patience, but a lot of teamwork.
Speaker 2: I depend and rely on lots of very, very talented colleagues.
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted just looking at your imdbaate, Like you know,
Speaker 1: when I was doing the research for this, and I
Speaker 1: just was thinking, it's amazing. I mean, you're known for
Speaker 1: making so many different shows, and then there's some complexity
Speaker 1: and some diversity in the way in which you find
Speaker 1: different stories, and it just made me wonder what is
Speaker 1: the hook for you? You know, like what makes you
Speaker 1: want to explore different subject matter?
Speaker 2: That's a great question, you know. The one thing if
Speaker 2: you've looked at my body of work or what our
Speaker 2: company does, there's a lot of different kinds of shows.
Speaker 2: You know, there's like a little bit of true crime.
Speaker 2: Then there's a hard hitting show about the mass shooting epidemic.
Speaker 2: But there's also hey, we're going to do a cooking
Speaker 2: show with Selena Gomez, right so you have or a
Speaker 2: documentary feature about Paris Hilton. So I love that. I
Speaker 2: love the diversity of programming and being able to explore
Speaker 2: all these different avenues, and I think that starts with
Speaker 2: a healthy intellectual curiosity. I try to explain this to
Speaker 2: people not in the business all the time. We have
Speaker 2: to become amateur experts about every single topic that we
Speaker 2: make a show about. So I then might not known
Speaker 2: all that much about cooking prior to Selena plus Chef,
Speaker 2: but I have a much better understanding of it now
Speaker 2: as a result of working on it. Otherwise it wouldn't
Speaker 2: be possible to make that show entertaining. You really do
Speaker 2: need to know what you're talking about, and documentaries are
Speaker 2: unscripted programming. That's a vehicle to learn something and you
Speaker 2: package it in an entertaining way. But at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, you're imparting information to a viewer. It
Speaker 2: could be a crazy true crime caper, but whatever it is,
Speaker 2: they're learning about a true story that they theoretically didn't
Speaker 2: know about before they turned on the television, and so
Speaker 2: you have a duty of care to get that right.
Speaker 2: But I think it starts with passion and an intellectual curiosity,
Speaker 2: and I kind of I just go with my gut
Speaker 2: instinct on what excites me.
Speaker 1: What do you think of out the documentary filmmakers. I mean,
Speaker 1: one of the last documentaries I watched in its entirety
Speaker 1: in one go was the Alan versus Farrow. When you're
Speaker 1: watching other people's documentaries, are you seeing a certain storytelling?
Speaker 1: And I mean, on that particular documentary, did you think
Speaker 1: that they had an agenda or do you think that
Speaker 1: they were just trying to gather the facts?
Speaker 2: Well, you went right for the controversial question. You know,
Speaker 2: when I'm watching other people's work, I'm hopefully just getting
Speaker 2: swept up in this story and I'm as entertained as
Speaker 2: any other viewer would be. I'm also watching for the
Speaker 2: filmmaking and how they're constructing it and how they're putting
Speaker 2: it together, and seeing what ideas they might have thought
Speaker 2: of that I hadn't thought of, or what ideas I
Speaker 2: thought of that maybe they borrowed from. And I think
Speaker 2: there's a lot of fun from our colleagues within the
Speaker 2: industry to sort of learn and admire each other in
Speaker 2: that way. That particular documentary, it seemed like the filmmakers
Speaker 2: had an agenda.
Speaker 1: This is the story of two of the biggest stars
Speaker 1: in the world. The father is Woody Allen, writer, director, actor.
Speaker 1: The mother is Mia Farrow, his co star and mother
Speaker 1: of his three children.
Speaker 2: They my family was really close. It was an amazing childhood.
Speaker 2: But no matter what you think, you know, it's just
Speaker 2: the tip of the iceberg. I mean to be honest.
Speaker 2: And to their credit, they've been in the press saying, yeah,
Speaker 2: we were really only interested in telling one side of
Speaker 2: this story. They've said that about some of their previous
Speaker 2: work as well, and so I think if you're upfront
Speaker 2: about it, I don't necessarily begrudg if you're honest about
Speaker 2: the fact that you have an agenda and you're really
Speaker 2: out there to tell I'm telling this one side of
Speaker 2: this controversial, contentious story. Okay, that's not the approach that
Speaker 2: I adopt. I think it's to me, it's a little
Speaker 2: bit less interesting, and I think when something is I'm
Speaker 2: not saying every story has to be balanced, but I
Speaker 2: think the other side of every story helps the viewer
Speaker 2: sort it out for themselves in a way. And so
Speaker 2: again it's not my favored approach, but the fact that
Speaker 2: they've been really upfront about the fact that they're on
Speaker 2: agenda to tell one side of the story. Okay, they're
Speaker 2: being transparent about it.
Speaker 1: You know, you really capture women particularly well. I think
Speaker 1: when you're like myself and you're digesting a whole lot
Speaker 1: of your content in one stretch, you can see it
Speaker 1: more apparent, probably than what you might have noticed or
Speaker 1: what you set out to do. Well, why do you
Speaker 1: think that you're so good at being able to work
Speaker 1: with strong women and you know, managing to unearth their story.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for saying that. My mother and older
Speaker 2: sister who raised me will be thrilled to hear that,
Speaker 2: and maybe that is part of it. Maybe being raised
Speaker 2: by my mother and older sister is part of it.
Speaker 2: My parents got divorced when I was nine years old.
Speaker 2: You know, my mom had to go back out into
Speaker 2: the workforce, and my older sister would cook dinner for me,
Speaker 2: and those were my formative experiences growing up. So and
Speaker 2: they're both amazing, complex, brilliant, wonderful women. So, you know,
Speaker 2: i'd like to think and it would be logical to
Speaker 2: assume that that's a big part of it. But I
Speaker 2: also think that we're in a moment right now in society,
Speaker 2: especially in the sort of post Me Too era, where
Speaker 2: there's a hunger for those sorts of stories and for
Speaker 2: those sorts of strong women to be out in front
Speaker 2: of those stories. Audiences are interested, women are coming forward
Speaker 2: wanting to tell those stories, and there's been an imbalance
Speaker 2: prior to that. There's been a lot of misogyny, and
Speaker 2: there's been a reckoning about the fact that there's been
Speaker 2: a lot of misogyny. And I think that it's a
Speaker 2: wonderful time to unearth these stories and to bring them
Speaker 2: to audiences. They're as important as ever, and I do
Speaker 2: think that hopefully our work and others work will inspire
Speaker 2: those stories to keep getting told. You know, if you
Speaker 2: think of the whole sweep of human history dominated by
Speaker 2: male centric, male driven stories. There's a lot of catching
Speaker 2: up for women to do in terms of storytelling and
Speaker 2: being featured in that sort of prominent way, and I
Speaker 2: look forward to helping correct that curve of history.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you, you know, what's been the
Speaker 1: biggest learn for you starting out with storytelling and then
Speaker 1: coming to this point. Now, Oh, that is all.
Speaker 2: That's a really great question. I think one of the
Speaker 2: things you know I've learned, other than growing a thick skin,
Speaker 2: is it's really important to be ruthless in the development
Speaker 2: of your ideas. You know, every time you think of
Speaker 2: something you know, you're oh, I'm a genius. I've just
Speaker 2: come up with this great idea. When you first come
Speaker 2: up with an idea, it's perfect, right, no one's heard
Speaker 2: it yet, no one's poked any holes in it. It's
Speaker 2: this utopian canvas upon which you paint your perfect idea,
Speaker 2: and the more you work with it, you're like, well,
Speaker 2: that's an issue. How am I going to get around that? Oh? Well,
Speaker 2: we might not have access there. I'm not sure the
Speaker 2: archival footage really exists in the right quantity to tell
Speaker 2: this story. Oh, that contributor won't participate the guy I
Speaker 2: really need to sit in the chair to tell me
Speaker 2: that story. He died three years ago, so he's obviously
Speaker 2: not available for the interview. As you start to develop it,
Speaker 2: you start to learn of all of its flaws, and
Speaker 2: sometimes it's not makeable. You know, One thing I learned
Speaker 2: in nonfiction is that if it's not makeable, it's actually
Speaker 2: not a good idea. Right, If it's not producible, it's
Speaker 2: not a good idea. You know, in scripted you can
Speaker 2: make up a story, and if you're a good writer
Speaker 2: and you can write a good script, okay, fine, there's
Speaker 2: a path. But in nonfiction you have to be able
Speaker 2: to make it, especially when it comes to unscripted formats
Speaker 2: like Undercover Boss. If that format doesn't work, it's actually
Speaker 2: not a good idea for a show. So it's got
Speaker 2: to be producible. It's got to be makeable. It's got
Speaker 2: to be something you can actually pull off when you
Speaker 2: show up in the field with the cameras and the crew.
Speaker 2: That's an important lesson, and I think you got to
Speaker 2: be really Therefore, it requires a certain ruthlessness in the
Speaker 2: development of that idea to make sure that you can
Speaker 2: really pull it off.
Speaker 1: I have to ask, was Paris Hilton really talking with
Speaker 1: three different voices in that documentary? And I wondered when
Speaker 1: she sort of revealed that, was that something that you guys,
Speaker 1: as storytellers sort of following her, had noticed before she'd
Speaker 1: revealed that, or was that just something that she came
Speaker 1: forward with right at the start of it.
Speaker 2: Well, I will tell you a story that I haven't
Speaker 2: really told anyone, because you've teed it up with the
Speaker 2: perfect question. When we were courting Paris, I had seen
Speaker 2: this article about her from several years ago. It sort
Speaker 2: of intrigued me, sort of a recap of her influence,
Speaker 2: whether it was unwitting or by design. And I went
Speaker 2: down a rabbit hole of just reading a lot of
Speaker 2: press about Paris Hilton over the years, and I had
Speaker 2: this instinct that that would be a great idea for
Speaker 2: a feature documentary because I felt like we've all been
Speaker 2: obsessing about the Hiltons, and we've been talking about the
Speaker 2: Hiltons for twenty years. But if you looked really carefully,
Speaker 2: this was a few years ago. They didn't really talk
Speaker 2: about themselves. You know, they would have their pr person
Speaker 2: say something and they'd sort of circle the wagons or
Speaker 2: declined to comment or do damage control. But when a
Speaker 2: scandal broke, so we were talking about them, but they
Speaker 2: weren't really talking about them, And so I thought that
Speaker 2: there's an opportunity for Paris to own her own truth
Speaker 2: and talk about some of this traumatic stuff that's happened
Speaker 2: in her past that quite frankly, we obsessed over as
Speaker 2: a society, And wouldn't that be entertaining if we could
Speaker 2: get her to tell us authentically what was really going
Speaker 2: on at the time.
Speaker 1: You're saying the documentary that the whole world thinks they
Speaker 1: know me, but they really don't.
Speaker 2: So who is the real Paris Hilton? Well, this entire time,
Speaker 2: I have been playing a character, so the world has
Speaker 2: never really truly known who I am. And she wouldn't
Speaker 2: even take the meeting with me for a while. I
Speaker 2: sort of had to be terribly persistent just to get
Speaker 2: in the room with her, and finally got in the
Speaker 2: room with her. And Parris's natural voice is kind of
Speaker 2: is this deep, sexy sort of baritone. When she's sort
Speaker 2: of like calm and not nervous, it's this really great,
Speaker 2: a deeper voice, and it's totally different than the baby voice.
Speaker 2: You hear, and I asked Paris really almost sort of
Speaker 2: a test, but I said, hey, Paris, if we go
Speaker 2: forward and make this project, are you going to use
Speaker 2: the baby voice or are you gonna drop that sort
Speaker 2: of veneer and just talk to us like you are
Speaker 2: right now? You could hear a pin drop in that room.
Speaker 2: My producing partner thought I had totally ruined, like I
Speaker 2: was going to alienate Paris and I had tanked the
Speaker 2: whole project, Like how could you ask such an incendiary,
Speaker 2: controversial question. Everyone's agent and manager around the table looked
Speaker 2: nervous and like they were afraid to say anything. It
Speaker 2: was a pregnant silence seemed to have gone on forever,
Speaker 2: and then finally Paris said, you know, good question. That's
Speaker 2: like a persona that I adopted early on. And the
Speaker 2: truth is I slip into it when I get a
Speaker 2: little bit nervous or uns or of myself, but it's
Speaker 2: not my real voice, and no, I won't be doing
Speaker 2: the whole documentary in that voice. And for me it
Speaker 2: was a risk. It was a little bit of a
Speaker 2: test balloon, like what Paris Hilton, are we going to
Speaker 2: get when we try to make this incredibly authentic film
Speaker 2: about her. You know, it takes two years, roughly speaking,
Speaker 2: to make a documentary feature. Sometimes it takes much longer
Speaker 2: than that, but it's usually a minimum of one to
Speaker 2: two years, and so I didn't want to go down
Speaker 2: that road and do all that work and not have
Speaker 2: something authentic on the other side. And so that was
Speaker 2: just a little test balloon into Paris's credit. She totally
Speaker 2: owned it and she was real about it, and she said, no,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that, and this is where
Speaker 2: it comes from. And I thought to myself, boy, we
Speaker 2: better talk about that in the film, because audiences are
Speaker 2: going to have the same question, They're going to want
Speaker 2: to know the same answer. And so that's why it
Speaker 2: became an important thing to bring out in the documentary itself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really resonated with me, Like there was other
Speaker 1: truth bombs that she dropped in that documentary, but to me,
Speaker 1: that was such a really good It was like the
Speaker 1: key into that documentary that she said that at the start,
Speaker 1: and then it allowed us as a viewer to trust
Speaker 1: her and go further and go deeper. And without that
Speaker 1: key at the start, could that documentary have really have
Speaker 1: lifted the way that it did.
Speaker 2: You know, well, you're making a really good point, because
Speaker 2: what you're saying as a viewer was the experience I
Speaker 2: had as a producer. I needed to hear that from
Speaker 2: Paris in order to trust her to kind of like, Okay,
Speaker 2: we're going to hold hands now and jump off the
Speaker 2: There wasn't a director on board at the time. It
Speaker 2: was just us in Paris. I needed to trust her
Speaker 2: in that same way that you're describing the viewer needed.
Speaker 2: I needed that before we ever started making it, and
Speaker 2: once I got that, I knew we were going to
Speaker 2: have something. I mean, she was so gracious and magnanimous
Speaker 2: with her truth by revealing the full comprehensive nature of
Speaker 2: her experiences, and I think that comes across in the film,
Speaker 2: and it's funny that it worked the same way for
Speaker 2: the viewer, that sort of that need and that capacity
Speaker 2: to trust her as a way of then going on
Speaker 2: the rest of the journey.
Speaker 1: For the rest of it, it's what makes you great,
Speaker 1: my friend. You know, that's what you've got to be
Speaker 1: is you've got to be in the driver's seat. I
Speaker 1: also love obsessed with American Idol, which you've worked on
Speaker 1: as well, and I wanted to ask you just as
Speaker 1: a shorter question, you know, what do you think of
Speaker 1: singing competition shows these days? Do you think that they
Speaker 1: still have a place on Telly?
Speaker 2: I do, and I'm biased, so I'm going to own
Speaker 2: my bias. But you know, American Idol is the real deal.
Speaker 2: That really is a show about the contestants, the artists
Speaker 2: that have a particular dream, and it's a great format
Speaker 2: that allows really talented folks to come on and really
Speaker 2: share with America and the world those voices and what
Speaker 2: they want to do as musicians and recording artists. There
Speaker 2: are other singing competition shows, some of them are more
Speaker 2: about the judges, you know, than they are about the contestants.
Speaker 2: What I love about American Idol is it's about the contestants,
Speaker 2: It's about that dream, it's about the artist journey. And
Speaker 2: I definitely think there's and will always be a place
Speaker 2: for that sort of entertainment on television, and I think
Speaker 2: the viewers have validated that.
Speaker 1: Just let you know, we have American Idol. Knots here
Speaker 1: at my place. Here you're not allowed to talk during
Speaker 1: the performances because my best mate Ed Pitts comes round
Speaker 1: and watch it with me, and we've had thoughts in
Speaker 1: the house for anyone that spakes during an American Idol performance.
Speaker 2: Well, I like the house rules that you have a
Speaker 2: di I'm a strong supporter of not talking during American Idol.
Speaker 2: That's those are good house rules. Would I would feel
Speaker 2: very wealthy?
Speaker 1: Well, we need to talk about Selena. You know, how
Speaker 1: did Selena and Chef come about?
Speaker 2: Selena and Chef came about in some ways because of
Speaker 2: COVID and the sort of stay at home orders that
Speaker 2: we were under here in the United States at that time,
Speaker 2: and Selena found herself, like the rest of us, at
Speaker 2: home a lot in their kit you know, needing to
Speaker 2: cook more than maybe they thought they would ever have
Speaker 2: to cook, and in her case, not necessarily. Selena is very,
Speaker 2: very talented at many many things, but I think it's
Speaker 2: not controversial to say that cooking isn't necessarily one of them.
Speaker 2: It certainly wasn't in the beginning of season one. Hi,
Speaker 2: I'm Selena Gomez and I really loved team.
Speaker 1: But I'm not the best cooked.
Speaker 2: I've asked some of the best chefs to school meets.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to learn from the legend.
Speaker 2: I'm so happy you're at home I'm at home, and
Speaker 2: we're going to see if we can make a meal
Speaker 2: together apart to the dinner. And so she found herself
Speaker 2: wanting to be better in the kitchen and wanted to
Speaker 2: gain some culinary skills so she could make better meals
Speaker 2: that were delicious or healthy or both. And it really
Speaker 2: came from that desire, and I think that was very
Speaker 2: relatable to what a lot of the rest of us
Speaker 2: were going through. You know, you can't go to a restaurant,
Speaker 2: You're getting all your food delivered. Takeout gets old after
Speaker 2: a while, and so I think that's really where it started.
Speaker 2: We had a pre existing relationship with Selena Gomez because
Speaker 2: we had partnered on a documentary series about undocumented immigrants
Speaker 2: facing deportation. So we had been partners with her on
Speaker 2: a previous show, and we had developed a relationship and
Speaker 2: a trust. And it was the only reason I'm underscoring
Speaker 2: that is this was the first time Selena appeared on
Speaker 2: camera in an unscripted television show, and so that was
Speaker 2: a big deal. Daunting a watershed moment, yeah, and so
Speaker 2: that was something that was really special. But I think
Speaker 2: that pre existing relationship was important in order to make
Speaker 2: her feel comfortable doing that with us.
Speaker 1: What about those rainbow knives in that kitchen.
Speaker 2: I mean the rainbow knives get get a lot of talk.
Speaker 2: And by the way her knife scales, I'm always nervous
Speaker 2: she's about to cut off one of her fingers. So
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm like, pleat, I'm slow down. I hope
Speaker 2: the other chefs stop. I sometimes I want the producer
Speaker 2: to interrupt and make sure she doesn't cut off her finger.
Speaker 1: But she does this thing, which is not good for
Speaker 1: a podcast, by the way, but she does this little
Speaker 1: thing with a hand, and you know, a couple of
Speaker 1: times other chefs say to her, I'm really nervous about
Speaker 1: the way you're cutting right now, and she says, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's fine, and she shows them like this little clawhand.
Speaker 2: Because that's what you're taught is unique, this little claw,
Speaker 2: and that's how you avoid cutting off your fingers. But
Speaker 2: you got to do that though, right every kind of
Speaker 2: chef says it. We're all at the monitors thinking it,
Speaker 2: and the viewers at home are probably thinging it. But
Speaker 2: I would say, knock on wood. As long as she
Speaker 2: doesn't cut off the finger, we can survive those moments
Speaker 2: of high anxiety.
Speaker 1: You know, what's interesting about the series as well is
Speaker 1: her ability to connect with these people through screens, you know,
Speaker 1: which I think we're getting better at doing. But you know,
Speaker 1: she never seems to get cross when the chef's stup
Speaker 1: to be a little bit controlling over her. Is that
Speaker 1: how it happened in real time? Was she that placid
Speaker 1: the whole time?
Speaker 2: Well, she's very charming and very disarming in real life,
Speaker 2: and I think that comes across on the show. So
Speaker 2: you know, Ludo Lefev gets you know, there's a French
Speaker 2: chef here in America. He got quite animated. And sometimes
Speaker 2: certain chefs might get a little frustrated or a little impatient.
Speaker 2: But you know, Selena, she gets stressed in the kitchen.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying she's unflappable, but she's a really good
Speaker 2: sport and she wants to learn, and she's comfortable in
Speaker 2: her own skin. You can tell from the show that
Speaker 2: like she's okay that she doesn't know all these things,
Speaker 2: and she'll be funny and self deprecating about it to
Speaker 2: the point where you're worried she's about to slice off
Speaker 2: one of her fingers. So I think that that charm
Speaker 2: comes through and I think that disarms a lot of
Speaker 2: the chefs, even when they get a little hot under
Speaker 2: the top.
Speaker 1: I've noticed a carefully place dialogue some of Selena's I'm
Speaker 1: a big Selena Gomez fan, By the way, I should
Speaker 1: probably just full disclaimer, you know, was the Selena lyrics
Speaker 1: just kept appearing just as normal conversation. Was that on purpose?
Speaker 2: Not necessarily? It was? I mean the songs we used, obviously,
Speaker 2: that was purposeful. But you're referring to casual dialogue. Yeah, no,
Speaker 2: I swear that's not on purpose. I mean, she might
Speaker 2: have those lyrics in her brain right because she's a
Speaker 2: massive recording superstar, so it's possible that somewhere in her
Speaker 2: subconscious and always on the tip of her tongue. But
Speaker 2: I promise you those that casual, inadvertent dialogue that may
Speaker 2: or may not sound like lyrics from her music was
Speaker 2: not intentional.
Speaker 1: Her nana did it. At one point, her nana came
Speaker 1: in and used a full line of dialogue, which is
Speaker 1: just her being authentic. But she says this, and I'm
Speaker 1: going to edit this into the podcast so that as
Speaker 1: long as she twisted Aman, they won't come out.
Speaker 2: Come on, man, help her out. I'm trying.
Speaker 1: I'm trying.
Speaker 2: Did Nana know that, I'm trying to remember the moment.
Speaker 2: Did Nana know that?
Speaker 1: She? No, she did not, and it didn't play out
Speaker 1: that way like for the viewer. She just said it,
Speaker 1: and I was like, are these easter eggs for the
Speaker 1: diehard Gomez fans or are these people I like.
Speaker 2: The rumor you're I want it now. I want to
Speaker 2: do it on purpose. Now. I want to put these
Speaker 2: easter eggs into the show so people like you can
Speaker 2: have some fun with you.
Speaker 1: I was having the rose with her every time she
Speaker 1: did the.
Speaker 2: Oh, so you need to separate four eggs, We're just
Speaker 2: going to use the rights.
Speaker 1: And she did that a few times, which is you know,
Speaker 1: it's a common lyric. But anyway, look, last night I
Speaker 1: cooked one of the best steaks of my entire life
Speaker 1: and it was all because of Curdistone and Selena Gomez.
Speaker 1: I just need to ask you.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, did you do the steak sandwiches
Speaker 2: or did you just just do I did.
Speaker 1: The whole thing without the I was so nervous after
Speaker 1: watching Selena's attempt at the Sultan Vinega Chips that I
Speaker 1: didn't go anywhere near the salt Vinea chips. But I
Speaker 1: did everything else and it just made me want to
Speaker 1: ask you, you know, what is the meal that you've
Speaker 1: watched being created that you've actually made yourself.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good one. My girlfriend and I did
Speaker 2: the Nancy Silverton kind of vegetable medley the Italian party buffet,
Speaker 2: so which was just a crazy number of vegetables. And
Speaker 2: I'm a big sort of meat eater, so I wasn't.
Speaker 2: I was like a little skeptical, like then we're gonna
Speaker 2: get some burgers, or like when is the meat portion
Speaker 2: of this meal? But honestly, it was delicious. Nancy is
Speaker 2: so talented, and that was an interesting episode where everything
Speaker 2: seemed to go wrong, and I think the sheer volume
Speaker 2: of dishes that Selena had to make in that episode
Speaker 2: was part of the stress. But that's one I remember
Speaker 2: really fondly, like we actually pulled it off. My girlfriend
Speaker 2: deserves honestly, most of the credit, maybe all of it.
Speaker 2: Maybe I just gote none of the credit now that
Speaker 2: I'm really thinking the thrill but I ate it all.
Speaker 2: I was the caster, and I think I did an
Speaker 2: excellent job.
Speaker 1: But you know, interestingly enough about this whole format. This
Speaker 1: format is so different to any other cooking show that
Speaker 1: you've ever seen before, and I think it is accessible
Speaker 1: for younger audiences. And younger audiences are harder to connect
Speaker 1: with these days with content. You know, they're on TikTok
Speaker 1: and they're creating their own content. But how do you
Speaker 1: feel about that? Is it harder to engage in your
Speaker 1: mind with younger audiences? And was this specifically made in
Speaker 1: a way for them?
Speaker 2: You know, I can't say that it was specifically made
Speaker 2: for a particular demographic. You're always mindful of who you're
Speaker 2: making this show for, and so that is still true.
Speaker 2: You know, we were in this case, we were making
Speaker 2: it for HBO Max, but we were making it for
Speaker 2: HBO Max at a time where that platform was just emerging.
Speaker 2: So I'm not sure it was even possible for us
Speaker 2: to know exactly who their audience was back then, because
Speaker 2: they were still figuring it out. We were figuring it
Speaker 2: out together, and so I can't say that we were
Speaker 2: purposely making it for a particular demo. Like you know, Look,
Speaker 2: the secret is I like to make stuff that I
Speaker 2: like to watch, and I have my own taste to
Speaker 2: rely on and hopefully that is shared by millions and
Speaker 2: millions of people, but it isn't always. I've made some
Speaker 2: shows that I've loved that have had very tiny, small audiences,
Speaker 2: so you just kind of do your best. I think
Speaker 2: in that show, really, I think what's so special and
Speaker 2: different about it is she's receiving instruction as opposed to
Speaker 2: the expert telling the viewer what to do it, So
Speaker 2: the viewer gets to learn with the celebrity and the
Speaker 2: other kind of great thing about it, and this is
Speaker 2: sort of I don't know, necessity is the mother of invention.
Speaker 2: Because of COVID, these chefs were all cooking remotely in
Speaker 2: their own homes, and as you say, we were beaming
Speaker 2: them into Celina's kitchen. It's something really interesting happens. Selena
Speaker 2: is by herself in the kitchen, and on a lot
Speaker 2: of other shows, when the chef is next to you
Speaker 2: and they see you struggling right to cut with a
Speaker 2: knife or to do something complicated, they have a tendency
Speaker 2: to take over, and the person learning has a tendency
Speaker 2: to step back and just watch them. But in this case,
Speaker 2: Selena can't do that. She's got to go through all
Speaker 2: the steps, and she's got to do it in real
Speaker 2: time as the chef does it, and there was something
Speaker 2: magical about her kind of being. I mean, she has
Speaker 2: her friends and her nana and her papa, but really
Speaker 2: it's Selena Gomez alone having to figure it out. And
Speaker 2: that was a magical thing that made the whole experience
Speaker 2: so compelling and entertaining that you know, probably wouldn't have
Speaker 2: happened if we didn't have to abide by some of
Speaker 2: these COVID restrictions. And so I think that's like a
Speaker 2: wonderful byproduct of having to be creative within the constraints
Speaker 2: of how we had to produce that show.
Speaker 1: Well, before I ask you the last question, I just
Speaker 1: want to ask you, for audiences that are listening to
Speaker 1: this podcast right now, why do you think people should
Speaker 1: watch this show?
Speaker 2: Oh? Well, it's just really entertaining, honestly. I mean, I
Speaker 2: do think that you can learn how to make some
Speaker 2: of these dishes. I mean, you can replay the episodes
Speaker 2: almost as a cook a long video and follow all
Speaker 2: the steps and pull down all the recipes and definitely
Speaker 2: learn how to cook. But I think there's something really
Speaker 2: escapist about watching Selena and her friends fumble their way
Speaker 2: through the kitchen while you know, very gracious but sometimes
Speaker 2: slightly frustrated and entertaining expert chef right on the other
Speaker 2: side tries to teach her how to do it all.
Speaker 2: And there's something very fun and very escapist and honestly,
Speaker 2: it's just cool to get to hang out with Selena
Speaker 2: Gomez in her actual kitchen. I mean, that's the other thing,
Speaker 2: you know, not to before we wrap this up, not
Speaker 2: to gloss over this, but there's something really intimate about
Speaker 2: being in her home, I know, in her actual kitchen
Speaker 2: where she makes your food. And I think that ability
Speaker 2: to eavesdrop, you know, is to be in a room
Speaker 2: that you would normally never get to be in as
Speaker 2: a viewer. That's really cool. That's lightning in a bottle,
Speaker 2: and that really speaks to how wonderful and inviting Selena
Speaker 2: is as a person, not to mention as the star
Speaker 2: of this cooking show.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. It's actually quite addictive. So for my two
Speaker 1: cents with that is for people watching it, watch the
Speaker 1: first episode, because I guarantee audiences will go down the
Speaker 1: rabbit hole and keep watching them and it becomes addictive
Speaker 1: and you'll find yourself being Selena Gomez and who doesn't
Speaker 1: want to be Selena Gomez. My last question I have
Speaker 1: for you is the question I ask all of my guests,
Speaker 1: what is an amazing story from behind the scene that
Speaker 1: we as an audience would appreciate that we might not
Speaker 1: have got to see.
Speaker 2: I need a documentary feature called Operation Odessa, And in
Speaker 2: that film, we were attempting to locate this huge sort
Speaker 2: of narco drug trafficker who was on the run from Interpol,
Speaker 2: was wanted by the Feds here in the United States,
Speaker 2: and no one could find him. We were warned not
Speaker 2: to go and look for him. We were warned that
Speaker 2: if we did, we wouldn't find him, so don't even bother.
Speaker 2: But he was an important element to the story. He
Speaker 2: was one of the sort of the three main characters
Speaker 2: of this particular tale. And our director and our crew,
Speaker 2: they were in Europe shooting part of the documentary and
Speaker 2: the director got a phone call on his cell phone,
Speaker 2: didn't recognize the number. He picks up the phone and
Speaker 2: the guy on the line said, you've talked to all
Speaker 2: the waiters. Now it's time for you to come meet
Speaker 2: the chef. So it was that guy that we were
Speaker 2: looking for that is there was literally an internationally wanted
Speaker 2: fugitive from the law and and he said, come to
Speaker 2: South Africa, come to Johannesburg tomorrow and we can have
Speaker 2: a coffee and we could talk about whether I will
Speaker 2: participate in this documentary. And so the director called us
Speaker 2: and said, hey, it's going to cost like tens of
Speaker 2: thousands of dollars to leave Europe flight to starth Africa
Speaker 2: just for a coffee, just to understand and maybe persuade
Speaker 2: this guy to participate. But once he told us the
Speaker 2: whole waiter come now meet the chef story, we were
Speaker 2: sort of all we were like, you gotta do it.
Speaker 2: You got to go for it. It's worth the risks,
Speaker 2: it's worth the thirty grand And sure enough he becomes
Speaker 2: a huge and a fascinating and amazing character in our
Speaker 2: documentary Operation Odessa. So you can if you watch that,
Speaker 2: you'll know who we're talking about when it gets to
Speaker 2: that point.
Speaker 1: That's a good one. And I just want to say
Speaker 1: that I got an email asking whether or not I
Speaker 1: was interested in doing this interview today and I wrote
Speaker 1: back within about one second yes, because I am absolutely
Speaker 1: fascinated by your work. I have been in your audience
Speaker 1: for so long, so I wait to say what more
Speaker 1: shows you work on and what stories you want to
Speaker 1: earth and thank you for being such a great storyteller
Speaker 1: and keep doing it.
Speaker 2: Ben, Thank you so much. It's incredibly kind of you,
Speaker 2: and I'm flattered and humbled and I really appreciate the
Speaker 2: kind words, and I just want to say it's not
Speaker 2: just me. I have lots of lots of talented colleagues
Speaker 2: and a producing partner and network partners who all contribute
Speaker 2: to the wonderful production of these shows and in the
Speaker 2: case of Selena Plus yet incredibly indebted to our wonderful
Speaker 2: partners at HBO Max, and I would be remiss if
Speaker 2: I didn't say that. But thank you so much for
Speaker 2: the kind of list.
Speaker 1: Well, hopefully HBO Max hasn't crashed today with the Friends
Speaker 1: Reunion being on Binge and HBO Max. I know that's
Speaker 1: so cool that the whole thing just crashes today with
Speaker 1: half the world tuning into that. But I just want
Speaker 1: to say, thanks.
Speaker 2: Ben, are awesome. I've really enjoyed this and I really
Speaker 2: appreciate it, and you are way too kind, But thank
Speaker 2: you so much.