WEBVTT - A deep dive with Aaron Saidman on Documentary films! 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:03.720 Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris, and 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.280 on this podcast, I'll be going behind the scenes with 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:10.200 the biggest players in television. Some housekeeping right at the start. 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.720 Please like and share the podcast. I love hearing your feedback, 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:16.200 and that's a huge part of gaining a wider audience 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.200 of people who also love juicy stories from behind the 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:23.040 scenes of television. Speaking of juicy, I really love Heather 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.480 McDonald's Juicy Scoops podcast. You really have to check her out. 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:28.840 She's a little nuts, but if you love Bravo and 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.800 Housewives content, I think that podcast is right up your ally. 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:34.800 This week has been a massive week in television. We 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:37.519 saw the return of Celebrity Apprentice on Channel nine, and 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:41.000 I have to admit I'm really liking Matha from Maths 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.320 when I didn't actually watch that series of Maths she 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.040 was in. But I also love David from Survivor on 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.840 that show. Both of them are a little full of themselves, 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:50.720 but I think that's part of the reason why it's 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.600 so much fun to watch. Then an exciting week on 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:57.600 Binge with the Friends Reunion, and I also saw a 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:00.320 sneak preview of the final episode of mayor of e Town. 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:02.320 But I don't want to say too much about that 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:06.119 except it's very good. Both were really good in very 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.320 different ways. I wished some of those friends actors hadn't 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.440 had so much plastic surgery because it was a tad creepy, 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:16.000 But the reunion was worth the wait after a few delays. 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:18.440 My favorite part was just seeing them all walk back 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:21.520 onto that really iconic set today's episode. As a cracker, 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:25.040 I have Aaron Sedman. He is an American creator, developer, 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.080 documentary filmmaker and television producer. He is known for a 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.840 number of non fiction television series and documentary feature films. 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:35.119 You would have seen a fair chunk of his work 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:37.840 over the years. I very much remembered his work with 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:42.200 the Leah Remoni Scientology in The Aftermath series, which was brilliant. 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.200 But a few of you would have seen Sedmund's work 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:47.720 on the Paris Hilton documentary, which made a lot of 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:50.760 noise last year in the media. This chat was arranged 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.960 by Binge to support Selena plus Chef, which is a 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:57.120 new cooking show on the network which has just launched 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:59.840 series two. It's a really fun show with Selena Go 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:04.120 as the host and for you fellow Australians. Curtistone is 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.320 in episode one of series two and he is really awesome. 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.040 On that episode, I felt very proud. So let's get started. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.920 I'd like to welcome you and Aaron Siedman to the podcast. 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.959 Wow you went right for the controversial question. A program 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:22.080 about our religion hosted by Miss Remony is doomed to 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:26.200 be a cheap reality TV show. My producing partner thought 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.920 I had totally ruined, like I was going to alienate Paris. 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:32.840 Feel like ral thinks they know me. That's all right, 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:34.480 that's fine. 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.480 Who has an interesting story that maybe we don't know 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:39.000 the totality of it. 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:41.800 The winner of American Idol. 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:47.720 This was the first time Selena appeared on camera in 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:52.280 an unscripted television show. Hey it's Selena. As everyone probably 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.320 knows by now, I'm not the best cook. It's really 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:59.320 important to be ruthless in the development of your ideas. 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:01.000 A you mated you Well. 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.760 I'm doing good. Yeah. Happy. The world is reopening and 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:07.440 getting back to normal. I'm not sure what it's like 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:12.520 in Australia, but in the United States, people are generally speaking, 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:17.400 getting their vaccinations and returning to life. Somewhat like it 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:19.160 was before the pandemic. 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.400 Well, interesting enough, we're going into a lockdown, which starts 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.640 today in Melbourne. So we're going into a snap lockdown 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:27.680 because there's actually just been an outright here. 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.400 Wow, I didn't realize that the United States was doing 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:35.840 so terribly, as you know, for so long. It's almost 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:41.480 ironic that in the final endpoint of this pandemic, we're 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:46.520 now emerging by getting all these shots and all these arms. 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:50.640 I mean literally, that's just the story here. You wouldn't 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.640 think that that would be our ending with such a terrible, 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:58.920 disastrous experience really since the beginning of the pandemic. So 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.720 I'm sorry. You guys are going in the lockdown and 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:05.000 it is very uneven depending on the country in terms 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:06.520 of how they're responding to COVID. 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:08.120 Well, you know what is a good thing, though, I 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.600 will just continue watching your work because I've been rewatching 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.080 and watching you know, so much of your work, knowing 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.640 I was going to have this interview with today. Of course, 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.800 I watched Selena and Chef. I've watched both series. I 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.120 rewatched because i'd seen it before Scientology in the aftermath, 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.840 but I was able to go and watch Minefield to Classified, 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.560 the Pitch Nights Talk. I've just been watching so much 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.360 of it, so what I haven't finished, I can now 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:35.760 keep watching because I'm locked in my house. 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:39.120 There's the poster for the Pitch. That is amazing that 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.440 you've had all the time to watch all of those shows. 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:44.680 Thank you so much for doing that. 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:46.720 I just don't understand how you might feel about all 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:48.880 of this, because you know, how do you comprehend looking 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:52.719 back at such a masterclass of documentary filmmaking. 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:55.880 Well, it's in some ways, I think our work has 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.080 evolved with the genre itself. So you know, if you 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:02.960 go back to the early days of unscripted television, was 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.160 somewhat rudimentary and it didn't incorporate a lot of the 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:10.880 filmmaking that we now come to expect with nonfiction projects. 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.599 And so I like to look at my filmography with 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:19.320 the sense of as the genre evolved and grew, my 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:21.880 work and my colleagues work was able to kind of 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.320 grow with it and hopefully elevate it and push the 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.520 genre to those heights that we're now at today. I mean, 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:31.280 it is really remarkable the filmmaking that's happening in the 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:37.279 nonfiction space. Really is as good as most of the 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.960 scripted work, I would argue in terms of the storytelling 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:46.159 and the filmmaking tools, the direction, the shooting, really every 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.320 aspect of it has come to a place where it's 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:54.080 respected across the industry and major Hollywood stars A listers 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:59.680 are pining to be a part of the nonfiction content business, 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.159 and that you know, I'm the recipient of incoming calls 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:08.120 from agents and managers of real bona fide celebrities who 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.279 want to be a part of what's happening in the 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.720 nonfiction business. And that's really exciting and that opens up 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:17.320 so many more opportunities than we could have imagined just 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:18.120 five years ago. 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.000 I mean, you've really collected all of this storytelling and 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:24.479 the artist storytelling at a point where we are absolutely 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.240 there's more of a thirst for this type of content. 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:29.839 You know, I can imagine if you were here in Australia, 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:32.039 is there an Australian person that you would love to 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:32.520 work with? 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.720 So we don't really think of it in terms of territory. 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:39.720 We just think of like, what's the best story. And 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:42.680 I've been pitched a couple of stories that are set 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:48.640 in Australia or about particular Australian characters, and to us, 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.880 it's is there a viable path to selling this? Is 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.599 it a is it good? Is it a good story? 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:56.719 Can we do a good job with it? Can we 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.160 be additive to the telling of that story? And so 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:02.960 that's what's great is that sort of the borders are 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:05.719 eroding on the types of stories that we can tell, 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:10.040 because whether it's HBO, Max or Netflix or take your pick, 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.480 all of the streamers really want to be everywhere in 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:19.080 every territory. Incidentally, I did happen to see on TV 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.120 the other night a movie called Breaker Morant, which is 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.400 not known so well in the United States, but I 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.760 imagine is known much better in Australia, and that is 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:32.360 a fascinating story. 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:38.200 Breaker Morant, a tale of honor and injustice from the 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.600 director of The Getting of Wisdom. 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:45.360 If these three Australians have to be sacrificed helping about 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:50.480 a peace conference, small applies to pay. I can't imagine 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:55.480 the Boer War being a hot topic for a documentary necessarily, 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.880 but my point is every country has an amazingly comp 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:04.760 lex rich fabric of stories and history that can be 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:06.920 mined from for great documentaries. 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.120 I want to see Nicole Kidman documentary. It's so funny. 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:15.120 I was watching The Glamour of Paris and her documentary 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:16.800 and how well that was put together, and I just 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.640 loved it. And then because I'm a huge Nicole Kidmen fan, 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:21.920 I was like, oh, that'd be a good one. 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.760 You know. It's kind of a good point the celebrity documentaries, 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.760 these sort of biopics, if you will, your brain does 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.040 start start to go there. You start to think, like, 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:33.920 who has an interesting story that maybe we don't know 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.480 the totality of it, that would be worthy of a 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:42.400 documentary treatment, And maybe Nicole Kidman is someone we should 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.120 really think about. You know. We did produce the Lea 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:51.360 Remedy Scientology series and learned a fair amount about mister 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:56.320 Tom Cruise, so maybe there is an interesting chapter of 0:08:56.440 --> 0:09:00.800 Nicole's story that we don't We're not completely to as 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.680 of yet, but it does make you think about various 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.440 celebrities and who might have a really good story to tell. 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:11.600 I have found, incidentally, that not all celebrities make for 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:17.120 good documentaries. And what was special about Paris was precisely 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.400 the conceit of you think you know everything there is 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.080 to know about her. But actually you don't, and you 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.679 need to watch this film in order to appreciate and 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.920 realize that. And that's really exciting. When you can find 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.160 that and capture that and bottle that and then deliver 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:34.760 that to a mass audience, that's really special. 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.679 What does a day in the life of a continuous 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:41.280 working producer executive producer look like for you? And like, 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:42.360 how do you manage that? 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.240 Well, you know, you're I'm tired all the time. I 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:49.600 your permanent bags under my eyes, probably grayer at this 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.920 age than I should be. So that's the less glamorous 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.800 side of it. It's NonStop, you know. I think working 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.720 really hard is a big part of it. You know, 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.000 there's virtue to that and not to be taken lightly. 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:08.160 To make one show requires a tremendous amount of effort, 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:10.679 and you have to put the right team together and 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.360 you have to rely and trust that team. And as 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.880 you start to grow your slate and you're juggling multiple projects, 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:19.559 you have to become a really good manager. So at 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:22.960 a certain point, it's not just how creative can you be? 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.400 Do you have a good idea, can you in a 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:29.480 compelling way explain that idea to others? It's also about 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:34.760 assembling really talented artists and artisans and being able to 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.960 manage that, and then hiring other people to help you 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.160 manage that, because the infrastructure and the machine just you know, 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.000 in success, it grows and grows. So it's a high 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.719 class problem, but high class problems, I've learned, are still problems, 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.440 and you have to be able to manage a large 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.600 slate of shows and human beings. And the key for 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:58.920 us has always been quality control. So if you make 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.880 twenty shows, if like eighteen of them are garbage, well 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:03.840 it's not really worth it. Just make the two that 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.400 are good. It's about making twenty shows really great and 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:12.480 being able to deliver that consistently. Really requires a lot 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:16.320 of stamina, a lot of patience, but a lot of teamwork. 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:21.040 I depend and rely on lots of very, very talented colleagues. 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.960 I'm exhausted just looking at your imdbaate, Like you know, 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.280 when I was doing the research for this, and I 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.640 just was thinking, it's amazing. I mean, you're known for 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.959 making so many different shows, and then there's some complexity 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.440 and some diversity in the way in which you find 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:38.000 different stories, and it just made me wonder what is 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.000 the hook for you? You know, like what makes you 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.319 want to explore different subject matter? 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.000 That's a great question, you know. The one thing if 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.880 you've looked at my body of work or what our 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.840 company does, there's a lot of different kinds of shows. 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.000 You know, there's like a little bit of true crime. 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.120 Then there's a hard hitting show about the mass shooting epidemic. 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:00.760 But there's also hey, we're going to do a cooking 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:04.720 show with Selena Gomez, right so you have or a 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:08.400 documentary feature about Paris Hilton. So I love that. I 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.520 love the diversity of programming and being able to explore 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.360 all these different avenues, and I think that starts with 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:19.120 a healthy intellectual curiosity. I try to explain this to 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.000 people not in the business all the time. We have 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.080 to become amateur experts about every single topic that we 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.640 make a show about. So I then might not known 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:34.000 all that much about cooking prior to Selena plus Chef, 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:36.760 but I have a much better understanding of it now 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.920 as a result of working on it. Otherwise it wouldn't 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.959 be possible to make that show entertaining. You really do 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.040 need to know what you're talking about, and documentaries are 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:51.000 unscripted programming. That's a vehicle to learn something and you 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.040 package it in an entertaining way. But at the end 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.600 of the day, you're imparting information to a viewer. It 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.800 could be a crazy true crime caper, but whatever it is, 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:05.920 they're learning about a true story that they theoretically didn't 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.520 know about before they turned on the television, and so 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.840 you have a duty of care to get that right. 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:15.160 But I think it starts with passion and an intellectual curiosity, 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.360 and I kind of I just go with my gut 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.040 instinct on what excites me. 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:22.679 What do you think of out the documentary filmmakers. I mean, 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:25.960 one of the last documentaries I watched in its entirety 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.480 in one go was the Alan versus Farrow. When you're 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.760 watching other people's documentaries, are you seeing a certain storytelling? 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.839 And I mean, on that particular documentary, did you think 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.000 that they had an agenda or do you think that 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:41.040 they were just trying to gather the facts? 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.960 Well, you went right for the controversial question. You know, 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:48.440 when I'm watching other people's work, I'm hopefully just getting 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.600 swept up in this story and I'm as entertained as 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.680 any other viewer would be. I'm also watching for the 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:57.680 filmmaking and how they're constructing it and how they're putting 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.840 it together, and seeing what ideas they might have thought 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:03.320 of that I hadn't thought of, or what ideas I 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.360 thought of that maybe they borrowed from. And I think 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.640 there's a lot of fun from our colleagues within the 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.600 industry to sort of learn and admire each other in 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.559 that way. That particular documentary, it seemed like the filmmakers 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:18.120 had an agenda. 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.000 This is the story of two of the biggest stars 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.000 in the world. The father is Woody Allen, writer, director, actor. 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:28.000 The mother is Mia Farrow, his co star and mother 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:29.000 of his three children. 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:34.280 They my family was really close. It was an amazing childhood. 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.760 But no matter what you think, you know, it's just 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:42.440 the tip of the iceberg. I mean to be honest. 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:47.400 And to their credit, they've been in the press saying, yeah, 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.560 we were really only interested in telling one side of 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.840 this story. They've said that about some of their previous 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:56.960 work as well, and so I think if you're upfront 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.760 about it, I don't necessarily begrudg if you're honest about 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.440 the fact that you have an agenda and you're really 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.160 out there to tell I'm telling this one side of 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:13.160 this controversial, contentious story. Okay, that's not the approach that 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.040 I adopt. I think it's to me, it's a little 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:20.480 bit less interesting, and I think when something is I'm 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:24.000 not saying every story has to be balanced, but I 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:28.480 think the other side of every story helps the viewer 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.520 sort it out for themselves in a way. And so 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.320 again it's not my favored approach, but the fact that 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:40.560 they've been really upfront about the fact that they're on 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:44.720 agenda to tell one side of the story. Okay, they're 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:46.040 being transparent about it. 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.280 You know, you really capture women particularly well. I think 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.040 when you're like myself and you're digesting a whole lot 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.560 of your content in one stretch, you can see it 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.480 more apparent, probably than what you might have noticed or 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:00.400 what you set out to do. Well, why do you 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.120 think that you're so good at being able to work 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.600 with strong women and you know, managing to unearth their story. 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.000 Well, thank you for saying that. My mother and older 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.240 sister who raised me will be thrilled to hear that, 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.480 and maybe that is part of it. Maybe being raised 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:17.760 by my mother and older sister is part of it. 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.720 My parents got divorced when I was nine years old. 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:22.880 You know, my mom had to go back out into 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.400 the workforce, and my older sister would cook dinner for me, 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.880 and those were my formative experiences growing up. So and 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:35.840 they're both amazing, complex, brilliant, wonderful women. So, you know, 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:38.000 i'd like to think and it would be logical to 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.400 assume that that's a big part of it. But I 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.920 also think that we're in a moment right now in society, 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.520 especially in the sort of post Me Too era, where 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.760 there's a hunger for those sorts of stories and for 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.400 those sorts of strong women to be out in front 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:58.720 of those stories. Audiences are interested, women are coming forward 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.280 wanting to tell those stories, and there's been an imbalance 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:05.760 prior to that. There's been a lot of misogyny, and 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.720 there's been a reckoning about the fact that there's been 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:13.639 a lot of misogyny. And I think that it's a 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:18.280 wonderful time to unearth these stories and to bring them 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:22.640 to audiences. They're as important as ever, and I do 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:28.639 think that hopefully our work and others work will inspire 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.480 those stories to keep getting told. You know, if you 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:35.360 think of the whole sweep of human history dominated by 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:40.040 male centric, male driven stories. There's a lot of catching 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.600 up for women to do in terms of storytelling and 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:47.040 being featured in that sort of prominent way, and I 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:51.000 look forward to helping correct that curve of history. 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.080 I wanted to ask you, you know, what's been the 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.960 biggest learn for you starting out with storytelling and then 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.800 coming to this point. Now, Oh, that is all. 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.479 That's a really great question. I think one of the 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:05.720 things you know I've learned, other than growing a thick skin, 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:10.040 is it's really important to be ruthless in the development 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:12.879 of your ideas. You know, every time you think of 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.600 something you know, you're oh, I'm a genius. I've just 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.560 come up with this great idea. When you first come 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.080 up with an idea, it's perfect, right, no one's heard 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.000 it yet, no one's poked any holes in it. It's 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:28.520 this utopian canvas upon which you paint your perfect idea, 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:30.480 and the more you work with it, you're like, well, 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.000 that's an issue. How am I going to get around that? Oh? Well, 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:35.520 we might not have access there. I'm not sure the 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.760 archival footage really exists in the right quantity to tell 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.520 this story. Oh, that contributor won't participate the guy I 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:44.199 really need to sit in the chair to tell me 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.480 that story. He died three years ago, so he's obviously 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.680 not available for the interview. As you start to develop it, 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.199 you start to learn of all of its flaws, and 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:58.280 sometimes it's not makeable. You know, One thing I learned 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.840 in nonfiction is that if it's not makeable, it's actually 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.440 not a good idea. Right, If it's not producible, it's 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:06.760 not a good idea. You know, in scripted you can 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:08.680 make up a story, and if you're a good writer 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.560 and you can write a good script, okay, fine, there's 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:15.280 a path. But in nonfiction you have to be able 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:19.159 to make it, especially when it comes to unscripted formats 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:23.280 like Undercover Boss. If that format doesn't work, it's actually 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.680 not a good idea for a show. So it's got 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:28.200 to be producible. It's got to be makeable. It's got 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:30.840 to be something you can actually pull off when you 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.240 show up in the field with the cameras and the crew. 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.480 That's an important lesson, and I think you got to 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:41.479 be really Therefore, it requires a certain ruthlessness in the 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.600 development of that idea to make sure that you can 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:44.680 really pull it off. 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:46.720 I have to ask, was Paris Hilton really talking with 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:50.600 three different voices in that documentary? And I wondered when 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.720 she sort of revealed that, was that something that you guys, 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:58.320 as storytellers sort of following her, had noticed before she'd 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:00.840 revealed that, or was that just something that she came 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:02.199 forward with right at the start of it. 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:05.679 Well, I will tell you a story that I haven't 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:10.080 really told anyone, because you've teed it up with the 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:15.320 perfect question. When we were courting Paris, I had seen 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:19.240 this article about her from several years ago. It sort 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:23.720 of intrigued me, sort of a recap of her influence, 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.880 whether it was unwitting or by design. And I went 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:28.760 down a rabbit hole of just reading a lot of 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:32.920 press about Paris Hilton over the years, and I had 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.639 this instinct that that would be a great idea for 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:39.680 a feature documentary because I felt like we've all been 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:43.000 obsessing about the Hiltons, and we've been talking about the 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.200 Hiltons for twenty years. But if you looked really carefully, 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.240 this was a few years ago. They didn't really talk 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:52.520 about themselves. You know, they would have their pr person 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:55.600 say something and they'd sort of circle the wagons or 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.159 declined to comment or do damage control. But when a 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.239 scandal broke, so we were talking about them, but they 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:04.880 weren't really talking about them, And so I thought that 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:08.159 there's an opportunity for Paris to own her own truth 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.760 and talk about some of this traumatic stuff that's happened 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.280 in her past that quite frankly, we obsessed over as 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.120 a society, And wouldn't that be entertaining if we could 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.800 get her to tell us authentically what was really going 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:21.639 on at the time. 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:25.920 You're saying the documentary that the whole world thinks they 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.000 know me, but they really don't. 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:32.399 So who is the real Paris Hilton? Well, this entire time, 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:36.200 I have been playing a character, so the world has 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:41.000 never really truly known who I am. And she wouldn't 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:42.879 even take the meeting with me for a while. I 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.760 sort of had to be terribly persistent just to get 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:47.680 in the room with her, and finally got in the 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:52.119 room with her. And Parris's natural voice is kind of 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:56.080 is this deep, sexy sort of baritone. When she's sort 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:59.600 of like calm and not nervous, it's this really great, 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.560 a deeper voice, and it's totally different than the baby voice. 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:08.000 You hear, and I asked Paris really almost sort of 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.760 a test, but I said, hey, Paris, if we go 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:14.239 forward and make this project, are you going to use 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:17.840