1 00:00:10,204 --> 00:00:13,484 Speaker 1: My Heart podcasts here, more Gold one on one point 2 00:00:13,524 --> 00:00:15,204 Speaker 1: seven podcasts. 3 00:00:14,604 --> 00:00:17,724 Speaker 2: Playlists and listen live on the free iHeart app. 4 00:00:18,564 --> 00:00:21,004 Speaker 3: Jersey and Amanda jam Nation. 5 00:00:21,404 --> 00:00:23,804 Speaker 1: Most of Australia was shocked to see neo Nazis in 6 00:00:23,844 --> 00:00:27,564 Speaker 1: the spotlight at last weekend's immigration rallies, an appalling speech 7 00:00:27,684 --> 00:00:30,604 Speaker 1: by Thomas Seule and an attack on a First Nation's camp. 8 00:00:30,644 --> 00:00:33,444 Speaker 1: The vision of that was horrific. Well, this has since 9 00:00:33,444 --> 00:00:37,364 Speaker 1: seen him arrested. Someone who knows about these groups is 10 00:00:37,444 --> 00:00:41,284 Speaker 1: Jeff's Scoop. He's the former leader of America's biggest neo 11 00:00:41,364 --> 00:00:44,884 Speaker 1: Nazi group. He now condemns the hateful views that he 12 00:00:44,924 --> 00:00:47,884 Speaker 1: once held, and he's hoping to combat that movement. Jeff 13 00:00:48,004 --> 00:00:49,364 Speaker 1: Scoop joins us Now, Hello. 14 00:00:49,284 --> 00:00:52,284 Speaker 3: Jeff, thanks for having me on the program. 15 00:00:52,364 --> 00:00:54,484 Speaker 2: That's okay. What are the chances you're in town and 16 00:00:54,564 --> 00:00:56,964 Speaker 2: this happened. When you saw that going on, what did 17 00:00:56,964 --> 00:00:57,444 Speaker 2: you think? 18 00:00:58,764 --> 00:01:01,324 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was quite ironic. I went down to the 19 00:01:01,324 --> 00:01:03,844 Speaker 4: protest in Melbourne to check it out and see what 20 00:01:03,884 --> 00:01:06,004 Speaker 4: was going on down there, so I was able to 21 00:01:06,044 --> 00:01:08,084 Speaker 4: witness at firsthand as. 22 00:01:07,924 --> 00:01:10,324 Speaker 1: Someone who, as we say it, has a big experience 23 00:01:10,364 --> 00:01:14,004 Speaker 1: of being a neo Nazi what is it that draws 24 00:01:14,484 --> 00:01:16,884 Speaker 1: a young man into that world? 25 00:01:16,964 --> 00:01:18,044 Speaker 2: What's that path? 26 00:01:19,684 --> 00:01:20,844 Speaker 3: It's gonna be a lot of different things. 27 00:01:20,884 --> 00:01:22,563 Speaker 4: It can be a sense of belonging, it can be 28 00:01:22,604 --> 00:01:25,084 Speaker 4: a sense of it could be the ideology. A lot 29 00:01:25,124 --> 00:01:28,604 Speaker 4: of young white men are attracted to these kind of 30 00:01:28,644 --> 00:01:31,124 Speaker 4: movements because they project strength. 31 00:01:30,684 --> 00:01:32,044 Speaker 3: And things of that nature. 32 00:01:32,084 --> 00:01:33,923 Speaker 4: But they have to you have to look at it 33 00:01:33,964 --> 00:01:36,283 Speaker 4: further than that and say, you know what, like the 34 00:01:36,324 --> 00:01:39,484 Speaker 4: camp attack, the indigenous camp attack, You've got a bunch 35 00:01:39,524 --> 00:01:41,484 Speaker 4: of grown men that are attacking women out there. 36 00:01:41,524 --> 00:01:44,644 Speaker 3: That's not anything honorable or noble or anything of that nature. 37 00:01:44,724 --> 00:01:47,244 Speaker 4: So if you're behaving in that manner, you should be 38 00:01:48,524 --> 00:01:52,164 Speaker 4: thinking about is that honorable behavior? Isn't noble behavior? Is 39 00:01:52,164 --> 00:01:54,444 Speaker 4: that something that you know? Is that the way you 40 00:01:54,484 --> 00:01:56,684 Speaker 4: treat your mother or your sister? You know, it's it's 41 00:01:56,764 --> 00:01:58,084 Speaker 4: just it's disgusting. 42 00:01:58,364 --> 00:02:00,684 Speaker 2: You don't seem to say a lot of old Nazis 43 00:02:01,044 --> 00:02:02,324 Speaker 2: Is it a young man's game? 44 00:02:04,644 --> 00:02:06,164 Speaker 3: Yes, and again I didn't quite hear you. 45 00:02:06,364 --> 00:02:08,884 Speaker 2: Oh sorry, you don't say a lot of old Nazis 46 00:02:08,924 --> 00:02:10,964 Speaker 2: these rallies? Is it a young man's game? 47 00:02:12,444 --> 00:02:13,684 Speaker 3: Well, I mean that really depends. 48 00:02:13,724 --> 00:02:15,643 Speaker 4: I mean, you see people of all different ages at 49 00:02:15,644 --> 00:02:18,844 Speaker 4: these things, but it is it is highly attractive to 50 00:02:18,884 --> 00:02:20,804 Speaker 4: some of these young people that are that are looking 51 00:02:20,803 --> 00:02:22,964 Speaker 4: for answers. They're they're looking to get active in the 52 00:02:22,964 --> 00:02:24,923 Speaker 4: political scene and things like that, and I think it's 53 00:02:24,923 --> 00:02:28,684 Speaker 4: the responsibility. I know, it's the responsibility of the political class. 54 00:02:28,724 --> 00:02:32,484 Speaker 4: If you're a mainstream political organization, you don't platform neo Nazis. 55 00:02:32,803 --> 00:02:34,364 Speaker 3: You can say, hey, everybody can. 56 00:02:34,244 --> 00:02:36,883 Speaker 4: Come out to the rally, but given those guys a 57 00:02:36,923 --> 00:02:39,804 Speaker 4: platform and letting them up to the microphone, it's diminishing 58 00:02:39,884 --> 00:02:43,523 Speaker 4: the work that many of these mainstream political groups are 59 00:02:43,524 --> 00:02:46,324 Speaker 4: trying to do and accomplish out there. So letting neo 60 00:02:46,404 --> 00:02:49,004 Speaker 4: Nazis hijack that is unacceptable. 61 00:02:49,004 --> 00:02:50,923 Speaker 2: And that's what happened as well with that rally. There 62 00:02:50,923 --> 00:02:54,524 Speaker 2: was a lot of patriotic Australians there representing our country, 63 00:02:54,564 --> 00:02:57,323 Speaker 2: which I have no problem with whatsoever, But there was 64 00:02:57,363 --> 00:03:00,044 Speaker 2: a moment when Thomas Sewell was talking and you could 65 00:03:00,124 --> 00:03:02,124 Speaker 2: see this disquiet in the crowd. The go ham on 66 00:03:02,204 --> 00:03:08,363 Speaker 2: a minute, we're not aligned to you, mate. 67 00:03:07,004 --> 00:03:09,044 Speaker 4: And I think that's important to differentiate And I'm glad 68 00:03:09,043 --> 00:03:12,244 Speaker 4: you pointed that out because a lot of times that 69 00:03:12,363 --> 00:03:16,083 Speaker 4: sort of reality is lost in the noise of the 70 00:03:16,163 --> 00:03:18,603 Speaker 4: chaos and the disruption that's going on out in the streets. 71 00:03:18,764 --> 00:03:21,763 Speaker 1: But it's extraordinary. My son, who is twenty two, was 72 00:03:21,803 --> 00:03:23,883 Speaker 1: in a pub the other day and someone did a 73 00:03:23,964 --> 00:03:27,004 Speaker 1: Nazi sort another young man who was on his talking 74 00:03:27,043 --> 00:03:29,764 Speaker 1: about these marches. My son wanted to punch him, and 75 00:03:29,803 --> 00:03:31,763 Speaker 1: his friend said, or don't escalate it, and I thought 76 00:03:31,803 --> 00:03:34,804 Speaker 1: there was always an excuse to punch a Nazi. It's 77 00:03:34,844 --> 00:03:37,124 Speaker 1: extraordinary to me that this. You can go to a 78 00:03:37,164 --> 00:03:41,244 Speaker 1: pub in Sydney and someone's doing that. What's going on? 79 00:03:41,324 --> 00:03:43,244 Speaker 1: How do we turn these young men around? 80 00:03:45,284 --> 00:03:46,284 Speaker 3: It's not through violence. 81 00:03:46,684 --> 00:03:48,364 Speaker 4: I know that's the first thing that comes to mind 82 00:03:48,404 --> 00:03:50,604 Speaker 4: for a lot of people, especially when it's such an 83 00:03:50,644 --> 00:03:54,403 Speaker 4: abhorrent ideology. But I can tell you over all the 84 00:03:54,484 --> 00:03:56,564 Speaker 4: years that I was involved in this stuff, not one 85 00:03:56,644 --> 00:03:59,764 Speaker 4: person nobody leaves over getting punched in the face. In fact, 86 00:03:59,884 --> 00:04:04,524 Speaker 4: that sort of thing tends to entrench people more. Typically, 87 00:04:04,524 --> 00:04:07,564 Speaker 4: when there was violence at these rallies and there was clashes, 88 00:04:08,084 --> 00:04:11,244 Speaker 4: anybody that that day that that didn't show up would 89 00:04:11,284 --> 00:04:13,684 Speaker 4: be sending in emails calling and saying, hey, I'm sorry 90 00:04:13,684 --> 00:04:15,564 Speaker 4: I wasn't there. I'll be at the next one. I 91 00:04:15,604 --> 00:04:18,004 Speaker 4: didn't know it was going to be that action filled. 92 00:04:18,004 --> 00:04:18,204 Speaker 3: You know. 93 00:04:18,324 --> 00:04:20,803 Speaker 4: So when these groups do that and you have the 94 00:04:21,124 --> 00:04:24,644 Speaker 4: extreme far left that are out there attacking people on 95 00:04:24,684 --> 00:04:27,764 Speaker 4: the on the far right, or vice versa, it goes 96 00:04:27,804 --> 00:04:30,564 Speaker 4: both ways. I'm not picking sides on any of this stuff, 97 00:04:30,564 --> 00:04:34,003 Speaker 4: because extremism is dangerous no matter what side it's coming from, 98 00:04:34,364 --> 00:04:40,164 Speaker 4: and both of the extremes exacerbate the exacerbate the problem 99 00:04:40,324 --> 00:04:43,884 Speaker 4: on both sides. It's called reciprocal radicalization, where one side 100 00:04:43,884 --> 00:04:46,964 Speaker 4: of radicals gets the other side more radical, and you 101 00:04:47,084 --> 00:04:48,924 Speaker 4: have all the people that are in the middle on 102 00:04:49,004 --> 00:04:51,324 Speaker 4: the left and right being pulled. 103 00:04:51,004 --> 00:04:53,404 Speaker 3: More towards the extreme. And that's that's a danger for 104 00:04:53,644 --> 00:04:54,764 Speaker 3: any society as well. 105 00:04:54,804 --> 00:04:56,324 Speaker 2: And you had a lot of trouble in your life 106 00:04:56,364 --> 00:04:59,644 Speaker 2: when you were in the group. You know, your family 107 00:04:59,884 --> 00:05:03,884 Speaker 2: was affected, your mom, her job that was affected. What 108 00:05:04,044 --> 00:05:06,124 Speaker 2: made you get out of it? How did you see 109 00:05:06,164 --> 00:05:06,444 Speaker 2: the light? 110 00:05:06,524 --> 00:05:09,404 Speaker 3: As were you asked that? 111 00:05:09,444 --> 00:05:12,044 Speaker 4: Because being involved in it for me was a NonStop 112 00:05:12,084 --> 00:05:15,844 Speaker 4: train wreck. I mean everything that everything that hate touches 113 00:05:16,684 --> 00:05:19,084 Speaker 4: and that extremism touches, it turns to dirt. You know, 114 00:05:19,164 --> 00:05:22,244 Speaker 4: it turns to dust. It will tear apart your life. 115 00:05:22,244 --> 00:05:25,644 Speaker 4: It tore apart my mother's career, and a lot of 116 00:05:25,644 --> 00:05:27,004 Speaker 4: times when you're in the think of it, you don't 117 00:05:27,044 --> 00:05:30,284 Speaker 4: think about all that stuff. So it's important to hear 118 00:05:30,364 --> 00:05:32,084 Speaker 4: from those of us that have been through it, that 119 00:05:32,164 --> 00:05:35,164 Speaker 4: survived it, because being no matter how if you get 120 00:05:35,164 --> 00:05:37,764 Speaker 4: on these extreme paths, it's going to lead to prison 121 00:05:37,844 --> 00:05:40,364 Speaker 4: or death. That doesn't lead anywhere good. There's nothing positive 122 00:05:40,404 --> 00:05:43,563 Speaker 4: that could come out of it. But directly answer your question, 123 00:05:44,004 --> 00:05:46,884 Speaker 4: it's conversations. What it was that helped me get out 124 00:05:46,924 --> 00:05:49,964 Speaker 4: was sitting down with someone that I thought a couple 125 00:05:49,964 --> 00:05:52,244 Speaker 4: of people that I believed were the enemy or were 126 00:05:52,244 --> 00:05:55,364 Speaker 4: on the other side. And by the other side, it 127 00:05:55,364 --> 00:05:57,284 Speaker 4: don't mean the extreme other side, I just mean people 128 00:05:57,324 --> 00:06:00,204 Speaker 4: that were against racism and hate and things of that nature. 129 00:06:00,244 --> 00:06:03,044 Speaker 4: So sitting down with those people, seeing their humanity, seeing 130 00:06:03,084 --> 00:06:06,044 Speaker 4: the humanity and the so called other, that's life altering. 131 00:06:06,284 --> 00:06:08,844 Speaker 4: So that doesn't come from you don't see that through arguing. 132 00:06:08,964 --> 00:06:12,884 Speaker 4: You don't see that through punishing or shaming or any 133 00:06:12,884 --> 00:06:15,804 Speaker 4: of those kind of things. Those type of behaviors typically 134 00:06:16,004 --> 00:06:20,484 Speaker 4: entrenched people further in that ideology. So having conversations with 135 00:06:20,524 --> 00:06:23,484 Speaker 4: somebody that might be in the process of being radicalized, 136 00:06:23,564 --> 00:06:27,564 Speaker 4: or that's beyond that point, not at a rally or 137 00:06:27,644 --> 00:06:29,724 Speaker 4: somewhere where their peers are around, but having one on 138 00:06:29,724 --> 00:06:32,204 Speaker 4: one conversations that can be a life changer, and showing 139 00:06:32,324 --> 00:06:36,884 Speaker 4: vulnerabilities and having those deeply personal conversations, because when it 140 00:06:36,924 --> 00:06:40,124 Speaker 4: all boils down to it, we might have different political beliefs, 141 00:06:40,964 --> 00:06:43,484 Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera, but we have more commonalities than 142 00:06:43,524 --> 00:06:45,724 Speaker 4: we have differences, and that's a fact day. 143 00:06:46,124 --> 00:06:47,884 Speaker 2: Jeff Scoop, thank you for joining us. 144 00:06:49,004 --> 00:06:51,003 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Thanks, thank you, Jeff. 145 00:06:51,044 --> 00:06:52,044 Speaker 2: Welcome to our country.