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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Dahlias.

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Speaker 1: Oh now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Daily OS. It is Monday, the seventeenth of June.

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Speaker 2: I'm Billy, I'm Sam.

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Speaker 1: South Australia could soon become one of the first places

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Speaker 1: in the world to ban political donations in state elections.

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Speaker 1: The announcement from the state government last week has reignited

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Speaker 1: a national debate about how our political parties are funded,

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Speaker 1: what donors want from their donations, and how else we

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Speaker 1: could model the system. In today's podcast, we'll be looking

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Speaker 1: at what the South Australia premier is proposing, but also

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Speaker 1: how things work in the political donation Hall of Fame

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Speaker 1: otherwise known as the United States. But first Sam, what

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Speaker 1: is making headlines today.

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Speaker 2: Israel has announced it will conduct a quote tactical pause

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Speaker 2: of military activity near a border crossing in southern Gaza

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Speaker 2: between eight am and seven pm daily to quote increase

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Speaker 2: the volume of humanitarian aid entering Gaza. However, an IDF

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Speaker 2: spokesperson said there would be no quote cessation of fighting

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Speaker 2: in the Southern Gaza strip and the fighting in Rapha

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Speaker 2: continues also over the weekend. Ceasefine negotiations between Israel and Tamas,

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Speaker 2: facilitated by Katar, Egypt and the US, continued. The UN

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Speaker 2: agency operating in Gaza has also said there are now

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Speaker 2: over fifty thousand children in the Strip who require treatment

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Speaker 2: for acute malnutrition.

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Speaker 1: The G seventh summit in Italy has concluded with leaders

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Speaker 1: agreeing to lone Ukraine fifty billion US dollars to help

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Speaker 1: in its war against Russia. The money will be paid

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Speaker 1: by Russia's central Bank through interest earned on its assets

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Speaker 1: outside of Russia that were blocked by the G seven

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Speaker 1: when it invaded Ukraine in twenty twenty two. The US

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Speaker 1: also agreed to provide Ukraine more military aid. The deals

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Speaker 1: were announced that the meeting of leaders from the US, EU, UK, Germany, Japan, France,

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Speaker 1: Ita and Canada last week.

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Speaker 2: The Premier of China Lii Juang has arrived in Australia,

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Speaker 2: the first such visit since twenty seventeen. Lee, a senior

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Speaker 2: government official, will visit Canberra, Adelaide and Perth for four

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Speaker 2: days of meetings and events. It comes after Prime minist

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Speaker 2: Anthony Albanezi visited Beijing in November last year. Premier Leze

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Speaker 2: said relations between the two nations are quote back on

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Speaker 2: track after a period of twists and turns. Amongst his

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Speaker 2: political engagements, Lee is expected to visit a pair of

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Speaker 2: pandas on loan from the Chinese government at Adelaide Zoo.

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Speaker 1: And today's good news, Australia's Olympic and Paralympic teams have

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Speaker 1: been announced as the trials wrapped up in Brisbane over

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Speaker 1: the weekend. Cameron McAvoy will become the first Australian man

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Speaker 1: to swim at four Olympics, while twenty three of the

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Speaker 1: forty one member squad will be attending their first games

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Speaker 1: and sixteen have previously won an Olympic medal. The Paralympic

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Speaker 1: squad will be made up of thirty athletes, including Grant

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Speaker 1: Scooter Patterson, who is heading to his fourth Paralympics, and

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old Holy Warn who is the squad's youngest member.

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Speaker 1: Sam and I did a whole podcast on just why

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Speaker 1: Australia is so good at swimming. We will put a

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Speaker 1: link to that in today's show notes. Okay, so today

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Speaker 1: we are talking about political donations. It's a sad day

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Speaker 1: for Zara.

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Speaker 2: Not to be here because this is a hot topic.

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Speaker 1: Yes, this is her bread and butter. But Sam, first,

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Speaker 1: what are political donations?

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Speaker 2: So political donations exist across all states and territories in Australia,

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Speaker 2: it exists pretty much in every country in the world,

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Speaker 2: and it's this idea that individuals, organizations, charities, family trusts,

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Speaker 2: or religions. Pretty much any institution with a bank account

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Speaker 2: can donate money to a political party or election campaigns

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Speaker 2: or often multiple and most large political donors are corporations.

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Speaker 2: So we're talking here about lobbying bodies, consulting firms, banks,

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Speaker 2: mining and energy companies. And it's not just that they

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Speaker 2: can donate. It's not just that they put the money

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Speaker 2: in the pot. The political parties actually rely on these

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Speaker 2: donations for things like advertising, social media spending, holding big events,

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Speaker 2: and travel, especially during a campaign.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say that where this becomes

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Speaker 1: really important is usually around the time of an election,

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Speaker 1: where political parties are really going hard on their campaigns. Right.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of the big ticket item in terms of,

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Speaker 2: you know, something as tangible as a branded bus that

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Speaker 2: needs to make its way around the country all the

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Speaker 2: way through to in a modern election, the hundreds of

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Speaker 2: millions of dollars that these parties are spending on Facebook advertising.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, and then when they get into government, if they

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Speaker 1: get into government, then they can work with more tax

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Speaker 1: payer money and government budgets.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And so what did South Australia announce last week?

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Speaker 2: So the South Australian premier, his name is Peter Malanowskis,

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Speaker 2: he announced he wants to change the whole way that

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Speaker 2: political donations works in the state with a new law

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Speaker 2: that would ban political donations in state elections full stop.

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Speaker 1: That's huge news.

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Speaker 2: It's massive and it's a really bold move. I mean,

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Speaker 2: Malanaskus has been pretty clear he wants to eliminate this

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Speaker 2: perception of undue influence in politics. So, as I was

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Speaker 2: saying before about these big corporations giving money, the perception

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Speaker 2: from the public is that that can influence the way

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Speaker 2: decisions are made in politics. And so Malanowskis says that

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Speaker 2: he's on this mission to rebuild trust and integrity in

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Speaker 2: the political system and that there's a pretty fair reason

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Speaker 2: why we don't trust politicians or political institutions. He said

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Speaker 2: that large donations can lead to political decisions being made

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Speaker 2: in favor of big donors rather than the public. So

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Speaker 2: to play out an example with a mining company, the

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Speaker 2: concern is that they might have a mine approved if

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Speaker 2: they gave enough to the party that then eventually went

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Speaker 2: on to make government. And Malanaskus is not wrong that

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Speaker 2: there is this perception around politics, especially in Australia. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we've talked on this podcast before about the problem with

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Speaker 2: trust in politics. There was one global survey I was

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Speaker 2: reading when preparing for this podcast that showed politicians are

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Speaker 2: the least trusted profession in the world. So by banning

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Speaker 2: these donations, his hope is that the political career takes

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Speaker 2: one step in the right direction towards being trusted.

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Speaker 1: That is a massive mission. What is in this draft

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Speaker 1: legislation exactly, So.

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Speaker 2: It's not short on detail. There's a lot in this

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Speaker 2: draft legislation, but essentially it proposes a ban on all

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Speaker 2: electoral donations, with some strict penalties if you were found

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Speaker 2: in breach of that. So we're talking here about ten

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Speaker 2: years in prison or fines of up to fifty k.

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Speaker 1: Parties rely on that money, though, as you said before,

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Speaker 1: so how would they get the funds for their campaigns

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Speaker 1: and all the other areas that they need money for

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Speaker 1: if political donations were taken away.

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Speaker 2: So there's this model being proposed in the legislation that

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Speaker 2: would replace the private donations. And what's being suggested by

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Speaker 2: Malanaskis is the idea of public funding for political parties,

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Speaker 2: which is a fascinating idea. So under this model, parties

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Speaker 2: would get a one off payment that would be capped

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Speaker 2: at seven hundred thousand dollars or forty seven thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: for every current MP they have in South Australian Parliament,

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Speaker 2: whichever is the lesser of those two amounts, and that

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Speaker 2: pot of money from the public would fund their state

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Speaker 2: level election campaign.

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Speaker 1: So basically moving to a taxpayer funded election campaign rather

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Speaker 1: than a publicly funded.

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Speaker 2: One exactly, and a really standardized system that's kind of

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Speaker 2: then a proportionate amount of money to the size of

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Speaker 2: the party.

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Speaker 1: Almost that's a massive change. And I know we're going

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Speaker 1: to get to the US, but over there there's this

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Speaker 1: whole angle of the implied right of political expression. Can

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Speaker 1: you give me a sense of how that will work here?

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Speaker 2: Well, I actually think it could be a hurdle for Melanaskis,

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Speaker 2: and he'll have to encounter this question at some point.

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Speaker 2: Will the restriction on political donations mean that free speech

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Speaker 2: is affected. And the High Court of Australia has previously

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Speaker 2: ruled against spending limits for election campaigns. This is not

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Speaker 2: a new idea in Australia because they found that limits

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Speaker 2: might breach the implied political expression that we are given

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Speaker 2: a right to in the Australian Constitution. Not directly, but

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Speaker 2: it's implied, which means it's kind of presumed, and that

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Speaker 2: is the right to be able to say what you

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Speaker 2: want in the political sphere in a society. So Australia

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Speaker 2: doesn't have a Bill of Rights or any core document

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Speaker 2: that spells that out explicitly, but it's been tested a

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Speaker 2: number of times in the High Court and they've recognized

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Speaker 2: over and over again this idea of political expression as

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Speaker 2: an essential item in a democracy. So the challenge for

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Speaker 2: the court, and I guess now for melanowskis is he

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Speaker 2: has to try and convince the public and the court

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Speaker 2: system that the government's core interest in preventing corruption and

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Speaker 2: ensuring a fair election actually outweighs the idea that you

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Speaker 2: could stifle political expression.

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Speaker 1: You were a lawyer in your past life, as a

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Speaker 1: retired lawyer, of what is your very professional opinion on

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Speaker 1: whether you think this law could actually survive a legal challenge.

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Speaker 2: I didn't encounter any High court cases to do with

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Speaker 2: political expression in my esteemed career of just under two years.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to say for sure. I don't really know

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Speaker 2: what the court's going to rule, but I think the

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Speaker 2: court's going to have a tough time balancing out those

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Speaker 2: two factors. It's really up to the government, the South

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Speaker 2: Australian government to show that this ban is necessary to

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Speaker 2: tackle a significant issue of trust in politics, and if

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Speaker 2: they can do that, there is a chance that it

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Speaker 2: will be upheld. But it's definitely not going to be

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Speaker 2: without challenge, especially from parties that rely on these donations.

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Speaker 1: We've spoken a lot about the fact that this is

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Speaker 1: directed towards big, major political parties. What about how it

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Speaker 1: will affect the minor parties and also independent candidates.

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Speaker 2: Well, independent candidates are now a firm part of our

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Speaker 2: political landscape. I mean this is a different conversation than

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Speaker 2: we were having twenty years ago. They played a big role.

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Speaker 2: And so in this model, independence would still be allowed

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Speaker 2: to raise money from private donations, but those donations would

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Speaker 2: be capped at twenty seven hundred dollars per donation. Then

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Speaker 2: they'd also be a fifteen thousand dollars publicly funded payment,

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Speaker 2: and that ensures that there can still be some competition

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Speaker 2: without the backing of an established political party, and that

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Speaker 2: idea there is to level out the playing field a bit.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't actually see anything in the legislation about repeat

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Speaker 2: twenty seven hundred donations, so my mind immediately went to

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Speaker 2: can you just give twenty seven hundred dollars ten times?

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Speaker 2: That wasn't addressed in the legislation. It's going to come

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Speaker 2: up at some point because that's way away around it.

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Speaker 1: Just to be clear, though, the legislation is saying that

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Speaker 1: if you are an independent candidate, you can receive a

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Speaker 1: limited amount of political donations, but if you're a major

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Speaker 1: political party.

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Speaker 2: You can't exactly, So independent candidates can still go and

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Speaker 2: raise money at the markets or you know, do something

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Speaker 2: in their community and accept donations up to that limit.

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Speaker 2: It's different rules for major parties.

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Speaker 1: How have people responded to this?

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Speaker 2: So the reactions in South Australian politics have been mixed.

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Speaker 2: The Greens Upper House MP Robert Simms is on board

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Speaker 2: with the reform. He says that the Greens have always

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Speaker 2: pushed against the influence of donations on the democracy. But

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Speaker 2: he also wants to really make sure that smaller parties

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Speaker 2: and independents aren't disadvantaged, because he says their diversity is

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Speaker 2: crucial for a good democracy. The coalition hasn't made its

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Speaker 2: stance public yet, and we didn't get a response from

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Speaker 2: them when we reached out just quickly.

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Speaker 1: This draft law is now open for public consultation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so anyone can have their say.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But after that's done, what will happen next?

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Speaker 2: Well, mal Nawskus and his Labor government have a majority

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Speaker 2: in the lower House, so it'll likely get through there,

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Speaker 2: and then they get to the upper House that could

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Speaker 2: be a little trickier. They'll need some extra support. They'll

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Speaker 2: need backing from the two Greens and at least one

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Speaker 2: other minority party or independent. I'd say it'll be okay

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Speaker 2: if the Greens maintain their support. But again, as I

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Speaker 2: said to you before the couple other topics, the only

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Speaker 2: number that counts as the vote number.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, it we keep hearing that one from you, Sam. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's go a little bit further. I feel like we're

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Speaker 1: teas that we were going to speak about the US

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Speaker 1: a few times, but it is over there a major

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Speaker 1: thing at the moment. I'm hearing a lot about Trump's campaigns,

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Speaker 1: particularly because Holly Valance, who is a former neighbors Start,

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Speaker 1: is helping fund his campaign. Can you just explain how

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Speaker 1: political donations work in the US.

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Speaker 2: It makes Australia's political donation system look really simple essentially.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is a really complicated system, and I

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Speaker 2: think trust issues in the US stem from how complicated

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Speaker 2: it is. But to give you a really quick sense

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Speaker 2: of how it works, there's kind of three levels of

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Speaker 2: political donations in the US. There's individuals who can give

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Speaker 2: as much as they want. There's something called a pack,

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Speaker 2: which is a political action committee, and that's a group

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Speaker 2: of individuals or a group of companies or a group

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Speaker 2: of organizations. And then there's a super pac, which is

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Speaker 2: a group of packs. And the super PACs is where

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Speaker 2: things really get interesting because here we're talking hundreds of

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Speaker 2: millions of dollars. But the really important thing with super packs,

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Speaker 2: which is where kind of the beating heart of the

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Speaker 2: political donation system in the US is, is that super

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Speaker 2: PACs cannot be directly tied to a campaign. So it's

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Speaker 2: different to Australia, where the Australian Labor Party might be

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Speaker 2: raising millions millions of dollars for their campaign. Super PACs

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Speaker 2: can do their own advertising, their own events, they can

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Speaker 2: do whatever they want. They can't work directly with the campaign,

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Speaker 2: which is where things get a bit dodgy.

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Speaker 1: So just to be clear, it's not a straightforward political

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Speaker 1: donation to a big major party. It's just campaigning on

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Speaker 1: behalf of that party exactly.

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Speaker 2: So you can still donate to Donald Trump if you want,

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Speaker 2: but you can also donate, for example, to a body

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Speaker 2: called Maga Inc. And Maga Inc. Is one of the

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Speaker 2: biggest super PACs that clearly backs Donald Trump. Now there's

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Speaker 2: no official ties between Donald Trump's campaign and this body,

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Speaker 2: but they're about to spend one hundred million dollars on

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Speaker 2: TV advertising across four key states on behalf of Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump unofficially.

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Speaker 1: And I presume that Joe Biden has a similar big

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Speaker 1: super pac working on behalf of him.

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Speaker 2: Multiples, and you know, things get really messy, and super

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Speaker 2: PACs can donate money to other super PACs. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it just goes crazy. But to give you an idea

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Speaker 2: of how vital super PACs are to campaigns. The hand

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Speaker 2: Maga on TikTok is actually run by Maga Inc. The

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Speaker 2: super pac, It's not run by the Trump campaign. It

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Speaker 2: just gets crazy. But I think the key message with

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Speaker 2: the US is the volume of cash that moves through

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Speaker 2: political systems and the complexity with which who owns the

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Speaker 2: super pac, who's really behind the money, how hard it

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Speaker 2: is to financews to those questions.

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Speaker 1: It is such a big part of how these US

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Speaker 1: election campaigns play out. I presume we're not going to

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Speaker 1: see a similar law to what we're seeing in South

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Speaker 1: Australia in the US.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I mean the power that these super

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Speaker 2: PACs have over any candidate Democrat or Republican who's going

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Speaker 2: to be the next president means that that's their to stay.

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Speaker 1: Political donations is such a big idea and it's really

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Speaker 1: really fascinating to look at how it plays out, and

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Speaker 1: it will continue to be a massive story in the US.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of

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Speaker 1: The Daily OS. If you are wanting to help us grow,

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Speaker 1: the Daily Ods get the word out there about what

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Speaker 1: we are doing over here. Thank you so much and

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Speaker 1: we will be back again tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 2: Bungelung Caalcutin woman from Gadighl country.

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Speaker 1: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 1: all Aboriginal and Torres s right island and nations. We

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Speaker 1: pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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