1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Oh it's Tuesday, 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 2: the twenty first of February. 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 3: I'm Zara, I'm Sam. 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 2: Now there's been a lot of talk in recent months 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 2: and years about our privacy. 12 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 4: Your beautiful faces are being recorded. 13 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: It's equivalent to k Martin Bunning is collecting your fingerprints 14 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: or your DNA every time you shot. 15 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 2: Raising questions about who's accessing our information, TikTok, snap and YouTube, 16 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: facing questions about how well they protect children and whether 17 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: or not companies can be trusted. 18 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: Two point one million customers have had their data stoonin all. 19 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 5: Of the health insurers, three point nine million customers in 20 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 5: the hands of hackers. 21 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 2: So what rights should you have to privacy and would 22 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 2: you go as far as eraising yourself from the Internet 23 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 2: We're going to get into it in the deep dive, 24 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 2: but first sam the headlines. 25 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 5: The federal government has signaled it once to crack down 26 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 5: on rules that allow superannuation contributions to be accessed early 27 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 5: or reduce tax bills. I remember when we talked a 28 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 5: lot about this last year. The government's emphasizing the role 29 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 5: of super being to save for a dignified retirement. 30 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,919 Speaker 2: A fifty nine year old Australian man has been killed 31 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 2: by a shark while on holiday in New Caledonia. A 32 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: paramedic at the scene said the man was bidden three 33 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 2: times by the shark. A revival attempt lasted for close 34 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: to forty minutes, but the man couldn't be saved. 35 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 5: A paid subscription service for Facebook and Instagram will be 36 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 5: trialed in Australia and New Zealand this world. It's the 37 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 5: Meta Verified Subscription Bundle and it will include a verification badge, 38 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 5: increase of visibility and reach on some areas of the platform, 39 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 5: and further protections against impersonation. 40 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 2: And the good news. Over thirty three million children in 41 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: five Southern African countries have been vaccinated against polio. That's 42 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: according to the World Health Organization. The who's regional director 43 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 2: for Africa, said that Malawi, Mozambique, Zambia, Tanzania and Zimbabwe 44 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 2: have all made huge efforts in the past twelve months 45 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: to curb the spread of Polio SAM. The federal government 46 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: has published the recommendations of a review into Australia's privacy laws, 47 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: which includes the right to remove yourself from the Internet. 48 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 5: I'm keen to do this chat because it seems to 49 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 5: be coming up a lot with my friends and something 50 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 5: that we're all thinking about. But can we start with 51 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 5: what rights to privacy we already have. 52 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: We do have a legal right to privacy that was 53 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 2: established in legislation called the Privacy Act. Usually though it 54 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 2: was enacted in nineteen eighty nine and so obviously it 55 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 2: reflects the time in which it was created. It's been 56 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: updated since then, but it's fair to say that it's 57 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 2: been slow to adapt to the new obstacles and risks 58 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: that come with our whole lives being online. Back in 59 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, the then coalition government under Scott Morrison, they 60 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 2: commissioned a review to consider how to update the Act, 61 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: how to make sure that it reflects where we are 62 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: at as a society, and how we want our privacy 63 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: laws to be in the twenty first century. And so 64 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: the reason that we're talking about it today is because 65 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: at the end of last week we finally got that 66 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: report from the review. This was Mark Dreyfus, who's our 67 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: Attorney General, releasing the report in Parliament last week. 68 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 4: The corporensive review that my department has completed now has 69 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 4: found the Privacy Act is no longer picked for purpose 70 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 4: and does not adequately protict Australian's privacy in the digital age. 71 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 5: Okay, so if the Act is no longer for purpose 72 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 5: according to the report, what are the alternatives we can 73 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 5: play with? 74 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: Well, I think before we go any further, it's not 75 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: about losing the law. It's not an either or, it's 76 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 2: about changing it to adapt to modern times. So one 77 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: of the recommendations of the review is to broaden the 78 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 2: definition of what actually constitutes personal information and therefore what 79 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: we should actually be protecting under legislation. So, as an example, 80 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: the review found that there's currently a bit of confusion 81 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: about whether things like your IP address or your geolocation 82 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: data is considered personal information in the eyes of the law. 83 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 2: The review also recommends protection for what's called inferred infos, 84 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 2: so things a website learns about you, like, what products 85 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: you like, and what things you search for, information that 86 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: companies would find useful in targeting advertising and predicting what 87 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: products you might buy. We've all joked that our phones 88 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 2: are listening to us, but really it's this inferred info 89 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: that is building quite a substantial profile of us online 90 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 2: and that's the way that advertising then gets served back 91 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: to us. 92 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 5: I actually find it useful sometimes when companies and websites 93 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 5: have the data that is relevant to me, and if 94 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 5: I'm looking to buy a new surfboard, that I get 95 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 5: served ads for other surfboards, and I feel like that 96 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 5: can sometimes make our social media experience more personalized. But 97 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 5: I guess the issue is that you don't always have 98 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 5: a choice in the matter. 99 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 2: Exactly, And I think that that is really key to 100 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: what the review found, which is this idea of consent 101 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: and how important consent is. I mean in every context, 102 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: but in this context before collecting personal information. So specifically, 103 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: it's that consent should be voluntary, It should be informed, current, 104 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: specific and unambiguous, which again is what we know consent 105 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,239 Speaker 2: should be. The review also recommends companies should be held 106 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: to a legal reasonableness test. So, in other words, they 107 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: should consider whether an individual would reasonably expect their information 108 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: to be stored and collected, whether that collection is actually 109 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 2: necessar and whether there's a risk of harm. 110 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 5: What else did the report say, Well, there. 111 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 2: Was another recommendation around tighter rules for some groups that 112 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: include political parties, which I think would be good news 113 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 2: to anyone that's had to live through an election, media organizations, 114 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: and small businesses. And on the small businesses, I found 115 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,679 Speaker 2: it very interesting, but small businesses are actually currently exempt 116 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: from the Privacy Act. The review, though, has recommended that 117 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: that exemption be removed following some more consultation. 118 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 5: And of course, all of this is happening now in 119 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 5: a context of two major data breaches towards the end 120 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 5: of last year from Optus and medibank. Does the report 121 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 5: look at how we can deal with those kind of breaches. 122 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: Well, it recommends placing limits on how long companies can 123 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: actually hold on to data, and it also goes into 124 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: things like stronger rules around de identified data. It's because 125 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: while companies can at the moment claim that they've made 126 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 2: efforts to de identify someone's personal information, it is it's 127 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 2: still sometimes possible to then reidentify the information, and so 128 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 2: that's where problems arise in actually being able to construct 129 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 2: a fuller identity of someone online, even without some crucial points. 130 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 5: What about those stories we heard about companies like Kmart 131 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 5: and Bunnings and the good guys using facial recognition technology. 132 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually think we did a podcast episode on 133 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: this last year. Look, this area is very complicated and 134 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: there was a lot of nuance to it, but basically 135 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: what the review found was that there needs to be 136 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: more consultation in this space to understand whether there should 137 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 2: be another law that specifically talks to facial recognition technology. 138 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: So definitely something to be keeping an eye on. 139 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 3: We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back, Zia. 140 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 5: We started the podcast talking about the right to be 141 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 5: forgotten online how the right to erase yourself from the 142 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 5: Internet actually work. 143 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: The right to be forgotten sounds very traumatic, but we'll 144 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: go with it. So the review actually does recommend a 145 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: right to raise, to correct, or to d index information 146 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 2: about you from search engines. It also recommends the right 147 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: to request any information a website has collected on you, 148 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 2: and to opt out of direct marketing and targeted advertising, 149 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: that stuff we were speaking about before. There are those 150 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 2: some exceptions to these rights, especially in circumstances that involve 151 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: law enforcement, and so on this point, the review actually 152 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 2: recommends quarantining personal data, so basically archiving it rather than 153 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 2: erasing it. 154 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 5: Sounds like a pretty comprehensive change to how things currently work. 155 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 5: Where do we all go from here? 156 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: I mean, if we are the government, the government has 157 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 2: to still consider its response to the recommendations because they're 158 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 2: just that, they're recommendations. The government's not mandated to follow them. 159 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: But we have heard some indications that they are committed 160 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 2: to changing these laws, that is, the federal government. But 161 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: exactly when or how that happens does still remain to 162 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: be seen. Thanks for joining us on the Daily ODS. 163 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: If you learned something from today's episode, don't forget to 164 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: hit subscribe so there's a TDA episode waiting for you 165 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: every weekday morning. We'll be back again tomorrow morning, but 166 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: until then, have a brilliant day.