1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Already, and this is the Daily This is the Daily 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: ohs oh, now it makes sense. 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Tuesday, 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 2: the eighteenth of March. 5 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: I'm Sam, I'm Billy. 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: US President Donald Trump has taken a dramatic step in 7 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 2: his immigration crackdown by invoking a century's old wartime law 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 2: to support Venezuelan national's he claims are members of a 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 2: notorious gang. Despite a federal judge ordering a pause on 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: these deportations, a plane carrying two hundred and thirty eight 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 2: people still left four L Salvador on Sunday. Today, we're 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 2: going to break down how we got here, what this 13 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: all means, and why it's setting the stage for what 14 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 2: could be a major legal battle. 15 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: So, Sam, this is a pretty extraordinary development. I saw 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: lots of footage of these deportations across all different media yesterday, 17 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,639 Speaker 1: and I actually intentionally didn't look at it, knowing that 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: you were going to explain it today. But it's not 19 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: entirely unexpected because Trump promised major deportations during his campaign 20 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: for presidency. Sure, do you want to just walk us 21 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: through what has happened in these last few days? 22 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that is a theme of this 23 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: Trump presidency is that he's doing exactly what he said 24 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: he would, and this was foreshadowed during the campaign, and 25 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 2: sure enough, over the weekend, President Trump announced he was 26 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: using something called the Alien Enemies Act of seventeen ninety eight. 27 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 2: And I'm going to come back to that law in 28 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 2: a minute to deport Venezuelan nationals who he alleges members 29 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: of the Trend der Arragua or unfortunately TDA, a violent 30 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: prison gang from Venezuela. 31 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: Can I just pause you quickly? You say the Alien 32 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: Enemies Act of seventeen ninety eight. So is that an 33 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: existing law that dates back two hundred years? 34 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: It's an existing law of US Congress that I imagine 35 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: they would have to go into the bottom draw and 36 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: literally blow some dust off this thing to try and 37 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: read what it says. That's how rarely this law is used. 38 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: That's so interesting because throughout Trump's campaign he used that 39 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: word alien to describe illegal immigrants or even just to 40 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: describe immigrants, and I didn't expect that that was a 41 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: word that was actually part of US law. 42 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's got a legal definition. So an alien is 43 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 2: somebody who doesn't have US citizenship, and isn't a US national. 44 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 2: So if you and I went to live in New 45 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: York for a year to do some work in America, 46 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: we could go in as an immigrant, or go in 47 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 2: as a documented migrant, you know, doing a working holiday. 48 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: We would be classified legally as a type of alien. 49 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 2: So there's lots of different types of aliens, everything from 50 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 2: an asylum seeker all the way through to a resident. 51 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: That's so interesting. I had no idea. Yeah, I'm not 52 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: alone in being the only one who didn't know that. 53 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: It's a funny word, but it does date back all 54 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: the way through to the seventeen hundreds. The US isn't 55 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: known for simple immigration law, so there's a very, very 56 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 2: complicated area of law with hundreds of years of history. 57 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 2: But the reason we're talking about it today is this 58 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 2: mass deportation of members of the TDA gang. It's obviously 59 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 2: a funny one for me because the daily OS is 60 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 2: shortened to TDA. I don't want it to be distracting 61 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: in this story, so I'm going to refer to it 62 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: as trend just because of the unique position we're in. 63 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: The name translates to the train of Arugua, and it's 64 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 2: thought to be in reference to a union of rail 65 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: workers that was working on tracks between the cities of 66 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: Caracas and. 67 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: Argua in Venezuela. 68 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it formed in Venezuela in twenty fourteen in Argua, 69 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: and it quickly took control of where it was formed, 70 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: which was inside a prison. Now, on the surface, this 71 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 2: looked like a really cool overtaking of a prison. There 72 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: was the introduction of a swimming pool, restaurants, and even 73 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: a zoo. Some members of the prison had their families 74 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: come and join them in the prison. But it also 75 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: meant that the group, once they took control of the prison, 76 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: they ordered robberies, kidnappings, and murders from behind bars. 77 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: Sorry, are you saying that they took over this prison 78 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: and introduced or built swimming pools in the prison exactly? 79 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: They kind of turned it into like a mini city. 80 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 2: It was quite a famous story at the time, but 81 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 2: it had this really sinister dark side as well. So 82 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 2: I think if we look beyond the swimming pools and zoos, 83 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 2: they really did run a criminal organization from the prison itself, 84 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,559 Speaker 2: and as economic conditions in Venezuela began to break down, 85 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 2: their organized crime syndicate expanded. More people turned to organized 86 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: crime to find money, and within a few years this 87 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: organization had branches not just across the country of Venezuela, 88 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 2: but also in neighboring South American countries, and it became 89 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: a really major player in drug and sex trafficking, and 90 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: eventually it expanded to the US, which has about seven 91 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 2: hundred thousand Venezuelan migrants, the overwhelming majority of whom obviously 92 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 2: are not criminals. 93 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: Okay, so this game grows really quickly in Venezuela, and 94 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: the gang's influence is very quick, he felt. In the US, 95 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: how do US law enforcement officials deal with that? 96 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: Well, this group quickly became a target of US law 97 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 2: enforcement because they were found to have carried out a 98 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: wave of robberies and heists. But also they were connected 99 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 2: to the shooting of two NYPD officers last year and 100 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: a police officer in Florida. So three police officers killed 101 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 2: by this gang in one year in the US. Fast 102 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: forward to today, there have been arrests of gang members 103 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: in five US states, and last year, the US officially 104 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 2: recognized TREND as a transnational criminal organization. And do you 105 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 2: remember the day that Trump was inaugurated, he signed a 106 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 2: whole bunch of executive orders that day. Well, one of 107 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: those orders was changing the classification of TREND from a 108 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: transnational criminal organization, which is what the Biden administration had 109 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 2: designated them as, to a foreign terrorist organization. 110 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: Which is similar to what a group like isis is 111 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: designated exactly exactly. Okay, So TREND gets classified by Trump 112 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: as a terrorist organization, and then over the weekend he 113 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: issued a proclamation invoking what you said before was the 114 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: Alien Enemies Act of seventeen ninety eight against the Gang. 115 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: Do you want to talk me through what that actually means. 116 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 2: Well, what makes this law so unusual is not just 117 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: the fact that it's from the seventeen hundreds, but the 118 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 2: fact that it's only been used three times in American history, 119 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: once during the War of eighteen twelve between the US 120 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 2: and the UK, once during World War One, and once 121 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 2: during World War II. So there's a bit of a 122 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: pattern emerging of when this law is whipped out. At 123 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: its heart, the law basically gives the President of the 124 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: United States power to detain, deport, or relocate non citizens, 125 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: so aliens who come from an enemy country. That's how 126 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,679 Speaker 2: the law describes it, without normal legal procedures needing to apply. 127 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: What does that mean without the normal legal procedures. 128 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: So we're talking about things like, you know, the use 129 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 2: of a court system, or the burden of proof being 130 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 2: placed on prosecutors, and the presumption of innocence. We're talking 131 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: about the right to legal representation, we're talking about the 132 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: use of evidence. But under this Alien Enemies Act, all 133 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: of those rights are essentially bypassed. And it's important to 134 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: remember that this is an act that is meant to 135 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: be used in times of war against enemies of the 136 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: US in order to get those enemies out of the 137 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: country as quickly as possible. So if you imagine in 138 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 2: a wartime you just arrest a spy, the idea behind 139 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: this law is, let's get them out of the country. 140 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: We don't have time for a judicial system. Let's just 141 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: get them out because we're at war now. The catch 142 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 2: is is that legally, Congress needs to make a formal 143 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: declaration of war before the president can access these powers. 144 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 2: The only other way is if a foreign government needs 145 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: to have made an incursion, like literally an invasion or 146 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 2: threatens to invade America. The first thing hasn't happened. Congress 147 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: hasn't made a declaration of war. And that second reason, 148 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: the incursion or the invasion reason, that can get a 149 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: little bit more complex. 150 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: So if neither of those things have happened, how has 151 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: he been allowed to use this law? 152 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 2: Well, Donald Trump says the second thing has happened. So 153 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: he says that this gang was conducting irregular warfare within 154 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: the US. And he went on to say that the 155 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: Venezuelan government had given up control back in Venezuela to 156 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: this criminal gang, and so therefore there's this hybrid criminal state, 157 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: that's what he describes them as, that's perpetrating an invasion 158 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 2: of and predatory incursion into the United States. 159 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: Can I just stop you to be really clear, He's 160 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: basically saying that the Venezuelan government is invading the US. 161 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: Essentially that this gang has so much power over the 162 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 2: Venezuelan government. The Venezuelan government, in his opinion, are puppets 163 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: to this gang. And so if the gang is organizing 164 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 2: and carrying out criminal activities in the US, that's as 165 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: good as the country of Venezuela carrying out an incursion 166 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: and an invasion in America. And that's the way that 167 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: he's justifying the use of this law. 168 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: Okay, so Trump has basically declared war on this gang 169 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: by invoking this act. 170 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: What happens now, So he announced the alleged gang members 171 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: who were in custody in the US were going to 172 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: be deported and they were going to be deported to 173 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: El Salvador, not Venezuela. Interestingly, the US is reportedly paying 174 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: El Salvador around six million US dollars to accept these 175 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 2: unauthorized immigrants. And the ACLU, whose job it is is 176 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 2: to protect civil liberties in the US, they rely really 177 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: heavily on the US Constitution, which guarantees all these different 178 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 2: protections to anyone in America. They filed a really quick 179 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 2: legal challenge, and their key argument was that basically, any 180 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: Venezuelan citizens in the US could be removed from the 181 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: country on the allegation that they belonged to this gang, 182 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: and they wouldn't have the chance to defend themselves at all. 183 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: Their argument is that that's basically a contravention of the 184 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: way that the US justice system should work, and so 185 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: they took that to court. There was this urgent court 186 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: hearing and a federal judge sided with them and ordered 187 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 2: an immediate fourteen day pause on all deportations authorized under 188 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: this Act, just to give the court enough time to 189 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: actually listen to the evidence properly. And the men weren't 190 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 2: going to be released from custody, so the judge didn't 191 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: say anybody arrested can now walk free, but they had 192 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: to stay on US soil. But despite this court order, 193 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 2: a plane carrying two hundred and thirty eight Venezuelans did 194 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 2: land in Ol Salvador on Sunday morning local time. 195 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: I was going to say, that's confusing. I mentioned the 196 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: videos of what I saw was to be what looked 197 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: like prisoners being deported from the US. So despite the 198 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: fact that this legal challenge was temporarily upheld, they were 199 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: still ordered to leave the US. 200 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: It's pretty remarkable the way this all played out in 201 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 2: the court room. So the judge says, I'm putting a 202 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 2: fourteen day pause on. We need to review this evidence 203 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: more carefully. House gets up and says, unfortunately, they're already 204 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 2: in the air, and they're already on the way, and 205 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 2: the plane is outside US airspace, and so there's nothing 206 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 2: actually the court can do. And this is now a 207 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: really big point of contention is did the Trump administration 208 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: actively ignore this court order. And did they ensure that 209 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 2: the plane took off as soon as it possibly could 210 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: because they knew that they were probably going to lose 211 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 2: in court and then the court wouldn't have any power, 212 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: or was the plane still in US airspace, in which 213 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 2: case they just ignored the court ruling altogether. It's a 214 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: really interesting discussion that's now turning into an argument about 215 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: what powers the president has over the court system. 216 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. When Donald Trump signed all of those executive orders, 217 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: there was a lot of commentary about is this kind 218 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: of just unfettered power, And the answer to that was no, 219 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: because there are still the courts. But in this case, 220 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: if the courts can't stop an executive order, that does 221 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: lend itself to a really interesting conversation about what kind 222 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: of power a president in the US. 223 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's getting really technical. People are looking into, 224 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 2: you know, takeoff times and where the plane was in 225 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: the air at the particular minute that the you know, 226 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: the order was handed down, and is an order handed 227 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 2: down at the start or beginning of a judgment. I mean, 228 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 2: it's getting to the minute in detail. But the bottom 229 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 2: line is that they're in El Salvador now, and will 230 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 2: they stay there they will Well, there's a lot of 231 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: secrecy around exactly where they are and what the plan is, 232 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 2: but they're likely being held at a facility called Seacott 233 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: and that's the world's largest prison. It's got capacity for 234 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: forty thousand inmates. So think of, you know, a major 235 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 2: football stadium as a prism and it was commissioned only 236 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: a couple of years ago in twenty twenty two during 237 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 2: a controversial crackdown on crime in Ol Salvador. And it's 238 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 2: known as one of the most intense prisons on the planet. 239 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 2: And of course this raises a whole other set of 240 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 2: issues around the human rights concerns with the treatment of 241 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 2: those men now at the prison. You know, they haven't 242 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 2: yet been properly vetted to confirm gaining affiliations of a sudden, 243 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: they're in one of the toughest prisons on the planet. 244 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 2: El Salvador's president even posted on x replying to the 245 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: story that this judgment had been passed down, attempting to 246 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: stop the plane, saying upsie too late. And then he 247 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 2: posted a video on social media of the men being 248 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 2: led off the plant. I think this is the video 249 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: you were talking about being led off the plane in handcuffs, 250 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 2: taken to the prison, and officials shaving the prisoner's heads. 251 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 2: Secretary of State Marco Ruby actually shared this post. 252 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: So El Salvado is very much in support of what 253 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: the Trump government has. 254 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: Done exactly, They're right on board and they're currently housing 255 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 2: these Venezuelan prisoners. 256 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,599 Speaker 1: Has the Venezuelan government responded. 257 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: Well, unsurprisingly, they denounced the entire process and they said 258 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: it was a direct contravention of US and international law. 259 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: They said it was a crime against humanity and that 260 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 2: it was directly comparable with what they described as the 261 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: darkest episodes of human history, such as the slavery era 262 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 2: and the Holocaust. It also said that some detainees were 263 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: as young as fourteen, but that hasn't been confirmed yet 264 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 2: by the US Justice Department. It is worth noting, though, 265 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 2: that the Trump administration said it would have deported the 266 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 2: men back to Venezuela, not El Salvador, but Venezuela have 267 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 2: had a long standing position to not accept deportation flights 268 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 2: from the US. 269 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: And how has the White House responded to all of this, Well, I. 270 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: Don't think they were really expecting it to become this 271 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: major legal issue about the executive power in the US 272 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 2: government and constitutional protections. So they're really directly addressing the 273 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 2: speculation about whether the administration was deliberately defying a court order. 274 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 2: Whitehouse Press Secretary Caroline Levett told Fox News the administration 275 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 2: did not refuse to comply with a court order. The order, 276 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: which had no lawful basis, was issued after terrorist aliens 277 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: had already been removed from US territory. So she's arguing 278 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: that kind of like where were they in the sky point? 279 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're doubling down. They're saying they have done 280 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: nothing wrong. This is such a fascinating legal battle. I 281 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: hate to use the word on precedented, but it does 282 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: sound like there's now this legal battle that has never 283 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: been had before in the US. 284 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you have to remember the message that the 285 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 2: Trump administration is giving to the American people is we're 286 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 2: keeping you safe. And crime on the streets is a 287 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: major issue, and it's something that President Trump was elected 288 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: on and he's saying he's now delivering on the mandate, 289 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: this idea of making all criminals essentially go back to 290 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: where they came from, you know, to put it in 291 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 2: a weird context. 292 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: I think worth mentioning that we are literally only at 293 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: the beginning of Trump's four year second presidency, so this 294 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: is really only the beginning of this battle. 295 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 2: He entered office in January. We're here in March. 296 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we'll make sure to keep everyone updated. Sam, 297 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: you'll be our official correspondent on this. 298 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 2: I love me some constitutional. 299 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: Us and thank you so much for listening to this 300 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: episode of The Daily os. We'll be back again this 301 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: afternoon with your evening headlines. Until then, have a great day. 302 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 303 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calkatin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 304 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 305 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest 306 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the 307 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.