1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Dealing with stress is an important part of any career, 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: but when you are an investigative journalist, the stakes are 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: about as high as they can get. Between adversarial politicians, 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: defamation lawsuits, and even death threats, Journalist Nick mackenzie has 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: seen it all. And Nick is not just any journal 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: He's the winner of fourteen Walkley Awards, Australia's highest journalism honor, 7 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: and is perhaps most well known for his investigative work 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: exposing war crimes in Afghanistan. So how does he stay 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: focused on the work at hand, and how does he 10 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: make sure he's not putting himself or his sources in 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: any more danger than is absolutely necessary? And perhaps more importantly, 12 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 1: how do you keep yourself sane and healthy when your 13 00:00:55,040 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: average workday is so incredibly stressful. Nick's been wondering that 14 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: himself and the solutions haven't exactly come easy. My name 15 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: is doctor amanthe Immer. I'm an organizational psychologist and the 16 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how 17 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: I work, a show about how to help you do 18 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: your best work. Before I hit record from my interview 19 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: with Nick, he was telling me how he's been reevaluating 20 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: the way that he works a lot over the last 21 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: two months, and so this is where the interview kicks off. 22 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 2: I've worked at a frenetic pace for twenty years, and 23 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: every year I've said to myself, jeez, I've got to 24 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: slow down. But I think you get addicted to you 25 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: get digit the adrenalin of a high pace of working itself, 26 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: you get addicted to success. You want to maintain that 27 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: bar I think it's a real trap for people, actually 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: when you do. I experience very early success in my 29 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: career almost from the time began, and then relentlessly have 30 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 2: tried to maintain that level of output and achievement. And 31 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: I think over time sometimes you lose focus as to 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 2: why one is doing that. So as a journalist, it's 33 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: very easy to cling to the cliche of and I 34 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: do believe this, that my work matters, that I try 35 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: to make the world in small ways a better place, 36 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: that I'm performing a great community service, and that journalism 37 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: it can't really matter in profound ways to people who 38 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: don't have a voice, and it can matter in profound 39 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: ways to holding those with power accountable. But I think 40 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: we've got to be honest with yourself. And as you 41 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 2: get older, you've become to begin to say, well, is 42 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: this a bit about my ego? Do I want to 43 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 2: remain really successful? Because it's about my identity and who 44 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 2: I am? Now that's the case, how healthy is that? 45 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: And if you're working intense hours at an intense pace, 46 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: that's going to have an impact on other parts of 47 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: your life outside of work. So you begin to ask 48 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 2: yourself is it all worth it? And how do I 49 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: maintain a work life balance? 50 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: So what was happening for you in your personal life 51 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: that made you do a bit of a rethink on 52 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: work habits. 53 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: I didn't realize this is going to be a psychology session. Listen, 54 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 2: I think I've said to something the other day. There's 55 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 2: that great little sort of comic or meme of an 56 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: animal sitting in holding a cup of coffee, sitting in 57 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: a burning house. Everything's okay, And sometimes, you know, sometimes 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: your life can be burning on the outside. We have relationships, 59 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 2: you've got kids, you've got a whole range of things 60 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: that can sometimes be placed in the to do basket 61 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: while you're focusing on your work. And I think lots 62 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: of people with stressful, busy jobs can feel that. But 63 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: over time, if you don't get to that to do basket. 64 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 2: Then time passes by and you become as your kids 65 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: get older, you get a better sense of, well, actually, 66 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: I want to shift my priorities. That's easy again to say, 67 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: and we know that we all must do that, but 68 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: doing it is the catch for me. My work, well, 69 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: mostly I love it. The intense highs are like no 70 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 2: other job, I guarantee you. I mean, lots of people 71 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: have exciting jobs, but when you're a journalist on a 72 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: big story, chasing classified information with sources who could go 73 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: to jail for speaking to you, there's an element of 74 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: danger and threats sometimes and you feel like you work matters. 75 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 2: It's absolutely addictive, so you want to keep doing it. 76 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: It's like it's almost like a drug. It's very easy 77 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 2: if you're addicted to that rush and you're passionate about 78 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: what you're doing, to always say, well, tomorrow, i'll calm down. 79 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: Tomorrow I'll attend to this other thing that's less exciting, 80 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: that's more mundane, but quite possibly more important. And then 81 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 2: the months tick past and the years tick past, and 82 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 2: you're left after years saying, jeez, I've got to get 83 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: to that, and I think this is where people, I'm 84 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: forty two years old. People then look at their life 85 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: at this time often and say, well, how do I 86 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 2: readjust that balance? And for me, the question and is 87 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: it about letting go to some aspects of my career 88 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: and how my work defines me as a person and 89 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 2: trying to build those other parts of me or tend 90 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 2: more consciously to those other parts, And maybe that pays 91 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 2: a dividend in my work as well. I'm not sure. 92 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: So what are the changes that you've decided to make. 93 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: Well, I've had a few ideas, and it's about applying them. 94 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 2: It's very easy to think people who work as hard 95 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: as I do and as intensely as I do, are 96 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 2: often super aware that they need to tend to those 97 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: other areas which they neglect. But it's really easy to 98 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: do so in a cheap and meaningless way. So let's 99 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: give me an example. Yoga. Ickon yoga is going to 100 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: be great. So I'm booking a yoga course. I go 101 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: three three times for a six month course, and never again. 102 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: And that's happened a few times. This, I should say 103 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: a psychologist. Yeah, that's great, that'll be I'll go to 104 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 2: a site, go twice, good session, should go ten times, 105 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: you never go back, so meditation. Recently, I'm going to 106 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 2: start meditating. My mates have told me what benefit it 107 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 2: gives them. I wake up most mornings with a fair 108 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: bit of anxiety. I've got so much to do. How 109 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 2: can I cramb it into one day? And my strategy 110 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: has been to use that anxiety and energy and passion 111 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 2: to will myself into work, get it done. And I'm 112 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 2: very good at doing that. Just get stuck into it 113 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 2: and I can be very productive in a day. All right, 114 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 2: Can I change that? Can I meditate for ten minutes? 115 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: It's got it five minutes, let's make it three minutes. 116 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: I've done it. I've did it four times, I think 117 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 2: at the start of this year, four three minute meditation classes. 118 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 2: And haven't I just thought it online? Haven't done it since? 119 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 2: Very easy to let go in the old work patterns 120 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: kick back in. So it's about I think, and I'm 121 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: hopeless at it, but actually saying, you know, I want 122 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 2: to change the way I operate. Then it's it's committing 123 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 2: to that, to that shoke up and doing so in 124 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: a really in a fashion that's as committed as I 125 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 2: am to my work. 126 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: So it sounds like, there's been like many attempts to 127 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: kind of change and start new habits, but it's been 128 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: hard to make them stick. Is there is there anything 129 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: or other you know, ideas or experiments you're you know, 130 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: going to engage in maybe in the next few months 131 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: that you think could help because your work does sound 132 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: incredibly stressful. Yeah. 133 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: I mean your podcast is how I work, and I 134 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: came here thinking about sharing stories about how I work. 135 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: What we're talking about now is how when you're good 136 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: at your job, you attend to other parts of your 137 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: life that you might neglect. And that's a bit of 138 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: a different, different equation. I mean, I'm hopeless at that equation. 139 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: I'm really good at her at working as Interestingly, I've 140 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: got a twin brother, he's the same. I've got a sister, 141 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: very successful, She's as intense and focused as me. I 142 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: think it is applying that same rigor and dedication that 143 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: you do to work to those other parts of your 144 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: mental health, your sense of self, your psychology, and all 145 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: those things that are so important for a full life. 146 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: Now I've been okay at doing those bits, Like I'm 147 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: great at going for a run every day, and I 148 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 2: think i've without realizing it. I was doing that every 149 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: day a because I find it helps me be creative. 150 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 2: It's a great time to think and to organize in 151 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: your mind when you're running or swimming or doing any 152 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: sort of exercise. But doing that every day, I was 153 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: actually doing that to make me a better worker. And 154 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: I think it's saying, well, the exercise might become or 155 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: meditation or whatever it is to make me a better 156 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 2: person and a calmer person. Now I don't know the 157 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: answer to this is being a calmer person and they're 158 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 2: more chilled out? Dude? Is that well, that actually make 159 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 2: me a less productive journalist. But maybe that's an experiment 160 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 2: I've got to take on myself and if it if 161 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: it pays a cost to my career or so. 162 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: What I'm curious to dig into the runs. I feel 163 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: like I've interviewed quite a lot of people that use 164 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: running to help with their creativity. So how do you 165 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: use your runs? Like? What does that look like? Do 166 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: you do you have a problem that you plan to 167 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: meditate on, for example, during the run, or is it 168 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: just an openness to ideas that come to you? What 169 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: does that look like? 170 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: For me? Running has been almost a savior in the 171 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 2: low part of the day, so I can come in 172 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: with lots of energy and ideas, get stuck into them, 173 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: and then you might hit a wall either you feel tired, 174 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 2: you've got a mental block, and knowing there's a set 175 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: time for me normallys about two o'clock, I've got my 176 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 2: five or seven k run, and it's about freeing the 177 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: mind of those obstacles, and for whatever reason, as you're 178 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 2: running and as the chemicals kicking in, I can solve 179 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 2: problems really well in my mind and bring them back 180 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: to the office and then get things done. It also 181 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 2: helps to I think, rid the bile for me, rid 182 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 2: myself of some of the anxiety that can grow up 183 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 2: in the day, or some of the problems that can 184 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: burden you and leave you less productive. The run almost 185 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: sort of purges those And only recently have I begun 186 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: to ask myself, well, why, what's the biochemistry behind all that? 187 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 2: And of course it's chemicals kicking around, and it's getting 188 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 2: away from the computer screen. But yeah, I find running 189 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: a real source of ideas making and it's calming as well. 190 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: My job can be stressful. Often during my run I'll 191 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 2: have a really intense problem and I'll be working it 192 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: out as I'm running. Often I'm coming up against say 193 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 2: a politician or a powerful person who's coming at me. 194 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 2: They might have sued me, they might be attacking me 195 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: in some other way. They might have stepped up in 196 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: parliament and had to crack at me under parliamentary privilege. 197 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: I'm almost mediating a conversation with them or an approach 198 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: to them as I'm running. This is what I'm going 199 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 2: to do. This is howving to deal with this problem. 200 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's about actually, you get your anger out in 201 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: the run, and I can be almost quasi sort of. 202 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 2: It sounds a bit weird, but I'm like, I'm fighting 203 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 2: them in my run, and then I can get out 204 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: that anger, and then you let it go and you 205 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: get back to being a professional journalist, leaving those angry 206 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: personal emotions on the shelf. 207 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: Do you have any apps or anything that you use 208 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: to record your thinking on the runs, or do you 209 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: find that it just sticks in your memory well enough. 210 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 2: I sometimes write down just little notes on my phone, 211 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: because I carry my phone as I run. Sometimes, actually 212 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 2: quite often, I'll have my intention to just go for 213 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: a run. It's out the office and the docklands around 214 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 2: the tan and back. But I'll stop after two k's 215 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: and make a phone call because it's occurred to me, 216 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 2: I've got a this is how I solve this work problem. 217 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: This person's got the answer, and I'll just stop and 218 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: I'll be a bit paffed. I'm sorry, I've been running, 219 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 2: been thinking about this, have a good chat, make a 220 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: few notes on my phone, start running again. I might 221 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 2: do that three times in a run, and it can 222 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 2: be really really really useful way of communicating and you know, 223 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: jotting down those ideas so they're recorded. And the other 224 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: key thing I do is go for runs with people. 225 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 2: So if I have a source or someone who's assisting 226 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 2: with the story, it's actually a great way. You know, 227 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 2: I take their suit off, you're all you're sweaty, and 228 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 2: you're running gear. It's a bonding experience and you know, 229 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: their mind's flowing like your mind, so they're coming up 230 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: with ideas and thoughts and creative ways of looking at things, 231 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 2: and you're discussing discussing them as you run. It's a 232 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 2: great way of dropping your guard. It's quite intimate thing 233 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 2: going for a run with someone that can be intimate 234 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 2: and that you can just share as you run, you're talking, 235 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: and there's people might look at a journalist over a 236 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: cup of coffee, they bring up the work book and 237 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: the pens out or jees am, I on the record, 238 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: what's happening that are run? It's much more free flowing 239 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 2: and you can have a really frank discussion with somebody 240 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 2: sort of off the record in this in this running zone. 241 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 2: That can be really useful as well. 242 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: I love that as a strategy. I'd love to know 243 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: where where do your story ideas come from? Where do 244 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: they start? 245 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 2: I think they start in a couple of places. Number One, 246 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 2: there's a fundamental understanding of what I do as an 247 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 2: investgative journalist scrutinizing power, scrutinizing systems that are hurting Australians 248 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: or or not working in the way that they should 249 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 2: be a political system, defense force, a health system. And 250 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: then when I say, with power of those with power 251 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 2: within those systems, be they politicians or senior public servants 252 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 2: or senior military personnel, and applying scrutiny to those entities 253 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 2: when they're not working as they should or when they're 254 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: abusing their power, when there's corruption. But the other fundamental 255 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: thing of what a journalist does is tell the stories 256 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 2: of the powerless and tell human stories. Any corruption scandal 257 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: will not work as a story unless there is a 258 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 2: human story behind it. Who's the victim, what's the impact 259 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: on them? How are they fighting back? So it's about 260 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: looking for those sorts of stories and also having the 261 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: equation in your mind. Do they matter? Are they in 262 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: the public interest? That doesn't mean that will people find 263 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: them interesting? But will they Are they something that people 264 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: deserve to know about and quite often something that people 265 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: in power want covered up. So are they in the 266 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: public interest? Another way of looking at that is, now 267 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: we're reporting this story lead some sort of a meaningful 268 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: change to a system to make people's lives better. 269 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: How do you build trust in those first few minutes 270 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: when you're first interacting with a potential source for a story. 271 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: Again, in any walk of life, whether you work in 272 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: business or journalism or whatever it is, no one wants 273 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 2: to be used. No one likes There's a transaction at 274 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: the heart of many dealings that we have at our workplaces. 275 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: You want something from somebody, put it like that. But 276 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: if you go in there just with that on your sleeve, 277 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 2: it's it's someone will feel used. It's it's a mucky 278 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 2: way of doing business. We want we want to form 279 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: a bond, a level of a personal connection with people 280 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 2: that we do business with, that we do journalism with, 281 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: that we work with. So it's it's about connecting with 282 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: someone on a genuine, authentic level. And I do that 283 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: two ways. I mean, I show genuine interest in people's lives. 284 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 2: Everyone's life is really interesting. Everyone's got a story, everyone 285 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: has a mood that it looks whatever. You look sad today, 286 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: happy day, what's going on? Got kids, don't have kids? 287 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: Got a dog? What's your footage? Team? Simple stuff, But 288 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: you're connecting with someone and you're remembering that those things 289 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 2: as well. So next time you meet them, if they say, yeah, 290 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: actually my mum's really sick. Been down to the country 291 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: town to visit. A two months later, you check in 292 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: just and first thing you say is how's your mum? 293 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: Real care for people and real connection, it's a critical 294 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: part of it. The other thing is you've got to 295 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 2: give of yourself. You know, you've got to tell them 296 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: of yourstra or I feel like this today for this reason, 297 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: something's bad. It's happened in my life. Mental health is 298 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: not great today, I'll tell you why be vulnerable. If 299 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: you are vulnerable, you can develop trust because people see 300 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 2: you're a real person, you're authentic, you feel you bleed, 301 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 2: you care like they do. And I think too often 302 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: in journalism it is about the microphone thrust into somebody's face, 303 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: or it's about a transactional interaction. My way of going 304 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 2: about it, it's a lot slower, but it's a lot 305 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 2: more effective, and frankly, it's a lot more pleasurable for 306 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 2: me because you do get to know people. And I 307 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: have countless friends now who began as sources, and I 308 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: count them not just as good friends, but I know 309 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 2: their wives, I know their kids. I've been to their 310 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 2: houses for dinner. You know, it's developing real human bonds 311 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 2: and real bonds of affection for somebody who might be 312 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: risking their entire career, who might be risking a jail 313 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 2: term to speak to you. 314 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: How do you know if you can trust a source 315 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: or a whistleblower when they first potentially reach out to you. 316 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,239 Speaker 2: It's extremely good question. I mean, in some ways it's 317 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: a really cliched question. I trust your source, You've got 318 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: a weigh their motivations. We're taught this in school, anyone 319 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: would understand the journalists must do that. But the reason 320 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 2: that's a terrific question is I actually think that we 321 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 2: can be very poor in discerning when we're being misled 322 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 2: as human beings. There's a lot of academy about it. 323 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 2: We have a confirmation bias and when we deal with 324 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 2: someone to think if they're looking at us in the eye, 325 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 2: to think that they're telling us the truth. You know, 326 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 2: you want to believe in people's in people's good nature, 327 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 2: and when someone's telling you something that might be the 328 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,719 Speaker 2: heart a great story, and you know, believing them as 329 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 2: part of getting that story, it can be very hard 330 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 2: for the journalists to step back and to say, hang 331 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: on a second, what's going on here? Even trickier when 332 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: someone's telling you something they truly believe. There are people 333 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 2: who have who have I think lied to me, but 334 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: I think they believe their lies. And in hindsight there 335 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 2: was signs of that, But I've only understood those signs 336 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 2: upon reflection and when when the livee apps has been exposed. 337 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: But at the time, you know if they're if they're 338 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 2: fully believing this bullshit they're telling you, and they have 339 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 2: some documents to back it up, they've signed a stat 340 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 2: deck or whatever the case might be. While would they 341 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 2: be lying, Why is this person really sitting down actively 342 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: to mislead me? So trust You want to win over 343 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 2: someone's trust, but often say to people, You've got to 344 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: earn my trust as well. If I'm going to go 345 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 2: on a bat for you, I need to ask you 346 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 2: all these much more difficult questions and I need to 347 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: have that conversation with you, as unpleasant as it is. 348 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 2: Is there any skeletons in your closet? Because if you 349 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: become a go on camera and become a whistleblower, someone 350 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: out there might throw at that skeleton. Just tell me now, 351 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 2: because we can deal with it. It may not be 352 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 2: a problem. There might be a problem, but we've got 353 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 2: to know what it is. And everyone's got secrets in life. 354 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: Do they want to put them on the table. It's 355 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: again how you interact with someone to get them to 356 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 2: share those difficult things. It might be with an absolute 357 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 2: assurance that it won't go any further, but I just 358 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: need to know. So the more I'm a journalist, the 359 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 2: less I trust. It's not to say that I don't 360 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: build great bonds of trust in time but you know, 361 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: I am pretty pretty wary. And you know, I think 362 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 2: if you've been burned a couple of times, I've been 363 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 2: a jenne for twenty years. I have been burned a 364 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: couple of times, You're wary. And that can be unfortunate 365 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 2: because you can be skeptical and cynical at times when 366 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: you perhaps shouldn't be. But I think it's also a 367 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 2: good safeguard. 368 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: We will be back with Nick soon talking about how 369 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: he maintains his motivation and enthusiasm for a story, which 370 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: can often take years to put together before it sees 371 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: the light of day. If you're looking for more tips 372 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 1: to improve the way that you work, I write a 373 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've 374 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 1: discovered that helped me work better, ranging from software and 375 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: gadgets that I'm loving through the interesting research findings. You 376 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: can sign up for that at Howiwork dot cod That's 377 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: how I Work dot co. Stories take years to research 378 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: and to build, and I'm curious as to how do 379 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: you maintain your motivation and almost I would also imagine 380 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: your excitement to share the story with the world when 381 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: it may still be twelve months away. 382 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've got, I think, an unusual brain for 383 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: detail and holding certain things in, hopeless at holding other 384 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:33,479 Speaker 2: things in. And you know, it's a superpower in some 385 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: ways and a great curse in other ways. But in 386 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 2: journalism it can be a superpower because I can retain 387 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: and hold and gather a lot of information quickly and 388 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: maintain it in a structured way for a long period 389 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 2: of time. That's part of the trick, though. The other 390 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 2: part is every day I wake up and I'm actually 391 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 2: thinking about this podcast, driving in how we work, how 392 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 2: you work, how I work. Every day, I give myself 393 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: a pep talk in the morning. I do it every day. 394 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 2: It doesn't often work, but it's about telling myself how 395 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 2: I'm going to aspire to a big thing today, do 396 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: something great. How I'm going to have happiness, How I'm 397 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 2: going to enjoy this journey as hard as it sometimes 398 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 2: can be. So be happy, be inspired, be excited. It's 399 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 2: about reminding myself of the privilege of my job. It's 400 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: an adventure and I'm lucky to be a journalist at 401 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: whatever stage of your career. But it's about having that 402 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 2: pep talk every day, and that is a process you 403 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 2: go through. Motivating yourself constantly. And then if you're doing that, 404 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 2: plus you've got that good capacity to hold stuff in 405 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 2: your head, then telling those stories and holding onto them 406 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 2: for months and then following them through and being passionate 407 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: about them for years is not hard because it's happening. 408 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 2: You know, you believe it, you're living it. All that said, though, 409 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: it does come with a big cost because you can 410 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 2: only I mean, I'm fighting sometimes five people's battles. They're 411 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 2: my whistleblowers or the stories I'm doing, and I'm neglecting 412 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 2: other things in the real world rather than my non 413 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,959 Speaker 2: working world, which I should be attending to. And that 414 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 2: you know, and you know that comes at a cost. 415 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 2: And I think how we work, we've got to say, 416 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 2: really good, the question to be how we live, and 417 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 2: works are part of how we live. 418 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: It's funny. I'm actually about to launch a spin off 419 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: show of How I Work called How I Live, which 420 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: goes into life and life advice more in more general terms. 421 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: I wanted to pick up on the PEP talks, So 422 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: talk me through in more detail what that PEP talk 423 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: process looks like, Like when's it happening? You're on your own? 424 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: Like is it just in your head. Are you saying 425 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: things out loud? What type of days it? What does 426 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: it look like? 427 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't started speaking to myself in the mirror yet. 428 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 2: It's in my head. It's at the start of every day. 429 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 2: Often just when I wake. I often wake with a 430 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: bit of a bit of a feeling of anxiety most 431 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 2: mornings of and it can be it can be mild, 432 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: it can be I never wait, going, oh jeez, I'm 433 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 2: so happy. What a great day. The sun is shining, 434 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: the birds are tweeting. I wake up with and it's 435 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 2: not a great way to wake up. It's it's a 436 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: tough way to wake up. And so it's confronting that 437 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 2: and then using that. It's like an energy that's churning 438 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: in your body, which is what sometimes anxiety feels like. 439 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: But it's using that energy and there's always excitement about 440 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 2: what the day holds. And the conversation I'll have. 441 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 3: Is is around over time, you can just get lost 442 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 3: in your work practices A through habit, B through ego. 443 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 2: And I think this is a problem for lots of people. 444 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: You know, do you want to be successful for six Yes, 445 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 2: his sake, And you realize there's a holiness to that 446 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 2: you know. So what you win a bunch of awards, 447 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 2: big big deal. So it's about your value system. So 448 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 2: my PEP talk is about why am I doing what 449 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 2: I'm doing? And why will I give it every inch 450 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 2: of my life? Why will I commit to it with 451 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 2: such passion? And so I remind myself journalism matters. I 452 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 2: can make people's lives better. I've got a real role 453 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: to play in public affairs. I can hold politicians to account, 454 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: and that's responsibility and a privilege. But it's a values thing. 455 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 2: I'm telling myself and reminding yourself of those core values 456 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 2: and then fighting against those more selfish values you rego 457 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: you desire to be the man pushing them aside and 458 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 2: saying no, this is what I'm This is a satisfaction, 459 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 2: is making the world try to contribute to the community 460 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 2: in some way and making that a real driver. And 461 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 2: also having for me after twenty plus years, is having 462 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 2: gratitude for being a journalist. So I say to myself, Nick, 463 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 2: You're lucky. You get to leave this adventure every day. 464 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 2: There's lots of bad parts to it. Every day, there's 465 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: down moments. I can tell you, it's a struggle that 466 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 2: I have a struggle ones. At least once a day, 467 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: it'll come. You know, there'll be a whatever though, we 468 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: get a death threat, there'll be a defamation suit, a 469 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 2: story I just can't get up. There's some stressful event happening, 470 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 2: especially in investigtive journalism, knowing that's going to be coming, 471 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 2: and then reminding yourself in that pep, doork have gratitude 472 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 2: for the exciting parts of your job and the fact 473 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 2: you can make a small difference to the community. And 474 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 2: then in sort of just getting fired, tell us to 475 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 2: find myself up, like you use all I'm here for 476 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 2: a limited time, use or my energy to this better ends, 477 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 2: and then apply that and then and you go and 478 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 2: do it. 479 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: The stressful parts of your job sound very stressful. What 480 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: does one do when one receives a death threat? 481 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm as we speak, I'm getting an intervention 482 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 2: order against the neo Nazi who has been threatening me 483 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 2: and been very unpleasant. I've had to move out of 484 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 2: my home after a source of mine was murdered the 485 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 2: homicide squad that said you need to leave. I've been 486 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 2: sued probably more than any journalist in the country, and 487 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 2: some very high profile lawsuits as well. I've been pillaried 488 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: in the press as a result of people attacking me 489 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 2: who I've come after. So you know, you attack a 490 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 2: powerful person, they'll go to your rival in the press 491 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: and they'll have a crack at you. There is lots 492 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 2: of pressure. How do you deal with it? I'm still 493 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 2: learning how to deal with it. I used to just 494 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,239 Speaker 2: get angry, get agitated, then tell myself, right, let's use 495 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 2: this anger, this agitation, this stress as I'm not going 496 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 2: to waste that energy on something that's not useful. I'm 497 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,719 Speaker 2: going to use this energy to find myself up to 498 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 2: just keep going and keep that and push back if 499 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 2: need be, or apply myself to the next story with 500 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 2: even more viga. Don't let the bastards get you down. 501 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 2: And that again is about a bit of a self talking, 502 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 2: you know, channeling using your stress as it's energy that 503 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 2: you're flying around your body, let's channel into something positive. 504 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: I imagine one of the higher profile deformation cases you've 505 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: been involved in was with Ben Roberts Smith, and I 506 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: felt like I followed that in the media. I found 507 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: that you know, yeah, I mean I can't even begin 508 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: to imagine what that was like for you. So how 509 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: like when that is going on, and I mean that 510 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: just kept getting delayed and delayed and went over a 511 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: huge span of time and is obviously not yet resolved 512 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: as we're recording. How do you maintain attention onto the 513 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: stories that you're working on right now as opposed to 514 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: letting it kind of get too much into you know 515 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: what I imagine was a really stressful case to be 516 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: involved in. 517 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been five years in my life. It has 518 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: been the most stressful thing I've encountered in my career. 519 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 2: We don't know what the outcome is. We're waiting for 520 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 2: a judge to come back. If we win a substantive 521 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 2: proportion of it, it will be a sense of justice. 522 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 2: If we don't, it's going to be a sense of 523 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I haven't still processing because nobody knows 524 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: Ben Robert Smith doesn't know. Neither do I, And of 525 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,479 Speaker 2: course we respect the justice system. 526 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 3: You know. 527 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 2: The choice was for me, I could let the stress 528 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: of that case. I was sitting in there for lots 529 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 2: of it. It went for one hundred and one days, 530 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: the trial itself and then the legal preparation. The fight 531 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 2: behind the scenes was often more stressful than the trial itself. 532 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 2: Because Ben Robert Smith's very high powered, well paid legal 533 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 2: team came at us, and they have been relentless, and 534 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 2: they've got public relations advisors putting out statements, and so 535 00:29:54,920 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 2: it's been an absolute sort of warfare scenario over a 536 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 2: long period of time. And I've got no doubt that 537 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 2: Ben Roberts Smith and his powerful backers wanted to destroy 538 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 2: me and my colleague Chris Masters. He said as much 539 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 2: on tape recordings. I want to destroy these guys. But 540 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 2: we could let that stress take over our lives and 541 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: or you use the stress and to fire you up. 542 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 2: And I think ultimately at the core of it, I 543 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 2: believe in what the journalism, the journalism we did behind 544 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 2: the story. I believe in we're doing our job. We're 545 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: doing a tough job. We did it to the best 546 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 2: of our abilities, with the public interest and the public's 547 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 2: rights to know in front of mind. You focus on 548 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 2: that and then you just get on with it and 549 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 2: not just made the entire legal team and people in 550 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: my company, we're all extremely stressed about what's going to happen, 551 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: and I haven't quite thought through the consequences of a 552 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: negative outcome, of adverse outcome. I'll deal with that when 553 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: it comes. But in some respects I found doing other 554 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: stories and focusing on other parts of my work the 555 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 2: savior because I could just leave it, put put that aside. 556 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 2: And often I was in court and I'll be thinking 557 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 2: of out the story ideas. Sometimes I was writing stories 558 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 2: in court about other things. And yeah, I guess the 559 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 2: way you deal with in a high pressure job. For me, 560 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 2: it's and this is I'm not saying this is a 561 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 2: healthy way to deal with things. I think there's many 562 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: things about my approach to work that is dramatically unhealthy. 563 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 2: But I do have an very intense ability to focus 564 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 2: and block out things, and I've used that to deal 565 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 2: with this. I'll block out the stress of the case 566 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 2: and I focus on the positive aspects or focus on 567 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 2: different stories, but the stress is still there, you know, 568 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 2: just blocking it out it's not probably probably not the answer, 569 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: which is why I'm not endorsing it as a work practice. 570 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 2: But you know, if I'm a case study of someone 571 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 2: who's achieved some good successes, as you don't think I'm 572 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: a case that in what not to do? I think 573 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: in many ways because I have worked relentlessly for twenty 574 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 2: years plus, and yeah, when you're going at that pace 575 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 2: all the time over a long period of time. It 576 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: is tiring. It wears you out, and as you get 577 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 2: a bit older, you have that ability to look back 578 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 2: and go, jeez, that's come at a cost. And all 579 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 2: these trials and these tribulations. The other thing I tell myself, 580 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 2: I've picked these fights. I don't have to be an 581 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 2: investgative journalists. I don't have to seek fame and fortune 582 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 2: and take on the biggest stories. So you know, you 583 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: want to get into the fry pan, You're going to 584 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 2: get it's hot in there. That's what I've picked. So 585 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: that's my lot. I've got to deal with it lye 586 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 2: in it, get burnt sometimes and not blame anyone but myself, 587 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 2: come to terms with that, and then you do just 588 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 2: get on with it. 589 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: How do you avoid confirmation bias when you're researching a story. 590 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think the most important quality in any journalist 591 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 2: important quality is insecurity, is warrying of getting things wrong. 592 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 2: It's a tough on lots of people in our profession. 593 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 2: Extremely well, there's lots of egos out there, and there's 594 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 2: lots of pretty cocky people and maybe that's their superpower 595 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 2: because they have this self belief. For me, I'm paranoid 596 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: about getting things wrong. I am, you know, I do 597 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: have a deep seated insecurity and anxiety in being a 598 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 2: failure and stuffing things up. So I rightly or wrongly, 599 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 2: My fear of stuffing up as a journalist is a 600 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 2: really good barrier or guard against confirmation biased Because I 601 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 2: don't believe what someone tells me. I want to go 602 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 2: and find thirty sources that are going to back it 603 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 2: up or not. You know, sometimes I can be so skeptical. 604 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 2: I won't take on something because I just think it's 605 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 2: not true. Now I've lost some stories by doing that, 606 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: But it's a really tricky one. In the way we 607 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 2: all work, fear of failure is one of the biggest, 608 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 2: if not the biggest motivator going around. It's not the 609 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 2: healthiest of motivators, but if you make a big mistake 610 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 2: in journalism through confirmation bias, you will fail, and being 611 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 2: acutely aware of that you guard against confirmation bias. So 612 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,240 Speaker 2: it's that fear of failure that's my biggest guard against stuffinger. 613 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about when choosing other journalists to 614 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: collaborate with on stories, you'll pick ones that you can 615 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: have a friendly fight with can you tell me what 616 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: you mean by that? 617 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: Well, we're all stuck in ourselves and we sometimes lack 618 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 2: the ability to look honestly at ourselves and say, no, 619 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 2: you're thinking of this the wrong way, or you've stuffed 620 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 2: this up. So finding a colleague who you respect, who's 621 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 2: willing to mean the worst thing in business and in 622 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 2: life is that people get the yes men around them, 623 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 2: and unfortunately you see very successful people, especially in business, 624 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 2: do that. Often they become CEOs and they build a 625 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 2: might structure, a board or the c suite supporting execs 626 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 2: around them are just yes people, and those businesses tend 627 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 2: to get into trouble eventually. The same thing in journalism. 628 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 2: If you surround yourself with people patting your on the back, 629 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 2: your mistakes won't be picked up. So finding that person 630 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 2: who will challenge you and you'll challenge them doing it. 631 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 2: The hardest thing to give in a workplace is constructive criticism, 632 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 2: not attacking somebody, but communicating to them in a way 633 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 2: that will allow them to see perhaps a different way 634 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 2: of doing something, or allow them to improve but still 635 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 2: feel nurtured and respected. I struggle to do it with 636 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 2: younger people that I work with. I want to build 637 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 2: them up, but I also want to hold them accountable 638 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 2: for their failures. My partners in the workplace, people I 639 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 2: work with on stories, I want them to do that 640 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 2: to me. And I've been lucky to have those sorts 641 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 2: of people. The older I get as a journalist, I 642 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 2: ended up and now working with people who are younger 643 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 2: than me, and our professions are very young profession now. 644 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 2: And I say to I've got a new producer from 645 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 2: sixty minutes who's an absolute superstar. She's extremely smart, but 646 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 2: a few years younger. And I want you to challenge me. 647 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 2: I want you to come at me. Don't have a fight. 648 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 2: We can be friends after, but we need to have 649 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: this process of friendly conflict. It can't be you know, 650 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 2: you can't be bullying or harassed you or anything like that. 651 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 2: But and be prepared to take on. Sometimes I'm their boss. 652 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 2: I guess on paper, I don't see it that way. 653 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 2: I respect your views. Take me on, and I'll respect 654 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 2: you more for it. But being really forthright about that 655 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 2: as well. Journalism can be full of lone wolfs, and 656 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 2: that's just the nature of some journalists. I'm not like that. 657 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 2: It's much better working with someone more than anything else, 658 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 2: your success with someone excuse me, it's much more enriching 659 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 2: to share a good thing with a friend. You know. 660 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 2: It's like going to a movie alone. That's yeah, sit 661 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 2: there crying at the end by yourself, or do you 662 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: have your partner next to you, but also sharing the 663 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 2: failures and journalism when things go wrong as they always do. 664 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 2: Having someone a good friend next to you to be 665 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 2: a support both ways is extremely important. And you know, 666 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 2: for me, picking colleagues in my job who will support 667 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 2: me and bring the best out of me and challenge 668 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 2: me when I need to be challenged and even when 669 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 2: I don't, and picking I call them like champions. Everyone 670 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 2: should be in there, especially in their mid career. Early 671 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 2: mid career. You find a champion in the business, someone 672 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 2: is older than you and more powerful than you, who's 673 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 2: going to champion your career. And I found a few 674 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 2: of those people who have been generous enough to do 675 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 2: that with me, and they've given me my success because 676 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 2: they've helped me, mentored me and fought for me when 677 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 2: need be. 678 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: Love that nick for people that want to connect with you, 679 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: you get in touch about a story that they've got. 680 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: What is the best way to do that. 681 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:05,879 Speaker 2: A simple google of my name brings up a bit 682 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 2: of social media and Twitter and my email and number 683 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 2: Fanta and I get five calls a day from strangers, 684 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 2: so you're free to check in. 685 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,720 Speaker 1: So just google Nick mackenzie and you will be found. 686 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 2: So that's how the trouble google me. I don't mean 687 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 2: that in the way it sounds. 688 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: Oh well, Nick, I've just I've loved this chat. I've 689 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: got so much respect for what you do, and thank 690 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,399 Speaker 1: you for the amazing and impactful stories that you've brought 691 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: to the public. I know I have. I've lapped up 692 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: many of them, and they've certainly changed the way I 693 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: think about things. So thank you. 694 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 2: Pleasure to be here. 695 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: Wow. I walked away from this interview feeling very grateful 696 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: that my work has never come close to giving me 697 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: the same level of stress that Nick's delivers. I mean, 698 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: can you imagine receiving regular death threats and that just 699 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: being part of your job. I must say this interview 700 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: gave me such great perspective around the things that I 701 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: do find stressful at work, and really questioning myself on 702 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: whether what I'm experiencing is objectively stressful and if it 703 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: isn't whether I'm able to do some kind of a 704 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: reframe on the situation that will help me be able 705 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: to tackle it with more clarity and come. Thank you 706 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: for sharing part of your day with me by listening 707 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,800 Speaker 1: to How I Work. If you're keen for more tips 708 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,760 Speaker 1: on how to work better, connect with me via LinkedIn 709 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just search for 710 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on the traditional 711 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: land of the Warrenery people, part of the cool And Nation. 712 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: I am so grateful for being able to work and 713 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: live on this beautiful land and I want to pay 714 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: my respects to elders, past, present and emerging. How I 715 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,399 Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventim with production support from Dead 716 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Liam Riordon 717 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 1: and thank you to Martin Nimba who did the audio 718 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: mix and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.