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Speaker 1: Social media can we really beneficial and you can connect

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Speaker 1: with a variety of people in different countries and learn

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Speaker 1: things and all sorts of positives. But there's kind of

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Speaker 1: a darker negative side, and when you're age eleven, twelve, thirteen, again,

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Speaker 1: you're just not ready to navigate kind of the mind

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Speaker 1: field of social media by yourself.

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Speaker 2: This is the Parenting in Perspective podcast. It's a Happy

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Speaker 2: Families podcast. And my name is doctor Justin Coulson. I'm

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Speaker 2: a dad to six daughters, a husband of one wife,

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Speaker 2: something like twenty two twenty three years of marriage. Now

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Speaker 2: I should get that right, otherwise I'll get in trouble

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Speaker 2: if Kylie listens. And the author of six books about

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Speaker 2: raising happy families, my guest on this Parenting in Perspective

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Speaker 2: podcast today, has done some fascinating research around children's and

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Speaker 2: adolescents media use, or as a late person, my term

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Speaker 2: it kids and their screens. Professor Sarah Coyne works in

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Speaker 2: the School of Family Life at Brigham Young University in

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Speaker 2: Utah and has over one hundred scholarly publications of her

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Speaker 2: academic and research work. She's particularly interested in traditional and

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Speaker 2: social media, as well as aggression, gender, and children's development.

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Speaker 2: As a speaker, professor, Coyn runs workshops for families and

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Speaker 2: teenagers about.

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Speaker 3: Using media in positive ways, and she's.

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Speaker 2: Produced a video series about social media literacy. For this interview,

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Speaker 2: I began by asking Sarah why she loves researching our kids'

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Speaker 2: media usage, and also, as always about her family life.

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Speaker 1: Academically, I have studied the impact that media has on

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Speaker 1: children and families for about the last twenty years, and

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Speaker 1: it's been fascinating because media has changed so dramatically during

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Speaker 1: that period of time. I have five children. They ranged

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Speaker 1: from three years old up to fifteen years old, four

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Speaker 1: boys and one girl, and they definitely keep me on

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Speaker 1: my toes for sure.

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Speaker 3: Amazing.

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Speaker 2: Now, now you mentioned with your research, media has changed

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Speaker 2: in the last twenty years, can you describe a bit

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Speaker 2: about what you've found from an evidence point of view.

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Speaker 2: I mean, when I sit here and think about what

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Speaker 2: I've seen happen, I feel like media has become coarser.

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Speaker 2: I feel like there's a greater acceptance of what would

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Speaker 2: have been in the nineteen nineties called vulgarity or course

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Speaker 2: language or explicit material. And I think that the whole

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Speaker 2: cable TV and Netflix and all that sort of thing

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Speaker 2: has probably exacerbated that.

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Speaker 3: But what else are you seeing in terms of the

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Speaker 3: change in media?

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Speaker 2: It's not just standards, obviously it's the Internet as well,

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Speaker 2: but what's really stood out to you from an evidence

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Speaker 2: point of view?

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Speaker 1: So from a content standpoint, there's definitely evidence of reading's creep.

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Speaker 1: So that's the idea that you can get more and

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Speaker 1: more gritty content in say in America, it's like a

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Speaker 1: PG or a PG thirteen movie that previously would have

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Speaker 1: been rated from much older audience, and so we're seeing

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Speaker 1: more vile lens, more sex, more vulgarity aim toward a

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Speaker 1: younger audience. So in terms of content, right, it's changing.

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Speaker 1: But then just in terms of like the devices that

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Speaker 1: we use. I remember when I was like twenty one

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Speaker 1: years old and I think my husband got me a

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Speaker 1: cell phone and I said, why would I ever use this? Like,

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Speaker 1: why would I ever need to text you? I'll just

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Speaker 1: call you from my office phone, right, And he's like,

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Speaker 1: come on, you study media? What is wrong with you? Right?

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Speaker 1: So clearly we got on board with that one. And

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Speaker 1: just the accessibility, the portability of media has just increased dramatically,

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Speaker 1: and so we are living with computers in our pockets

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Speaker 1: from a very young age. So the evidence suggests that

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Speaker 1: first smartphone ownership is about age ten right now, so

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Speaker 1: really really young age. We are living with these little

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Speaker 1: devices and computers in our hand at almost all times.

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Speaker 2: So when you say first smartphone ownership is around age ten,

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Speaker 2: this is fascinating to me because one of the most

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Speaker 2: common questions I get from people who are watching following

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Speaker 2: listening is what's the right age for my child to

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Speaker 2: get a mobile phone? And I've traditionally I've always said, well,

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Speaker 2: kids don't need smartphones, they need smart parents, and smart

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Speaker 2: parents get their kids dumb phones. But it's increasingly hard

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Speaker 2: to buy a dumb phone. Every phone is a smartphone now,

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Speaker 2: so that advice is kind of a little bit dated.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious, though, what's your response when someone says the

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Speaker 2: right age?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I get asked that question all the time as well,

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Speaker 1: and I always say, it depends on the child. Sure,

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Speaker 1: So you can have a really responsible twelve thirteen year

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Speaker 1: old that could handle some smartphone capacity pretty well, and

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Speaker 1: then another twelve thirteen year old there would be an

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Speaker 1: utter disaster.

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Speaker 3: I know some adults to utter disasters with their smartphones.

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Speaker 1: So right, yeah, exactly. So developmentally a ten eleven twelve

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Speaker 1: year old is simply not ready for a smartphone. They're

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Speaker 1: not ready to have the power of unfettered access to

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Speaker 1: the inner in their hand. And so I already like,

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Speaker 1: and this is what I do with my own children,

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Speaker 1: right to start slow, you know, with an old phone

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Speaker 1: that doesn't have much Internet capability, and then just gradually

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Speaker 1: release some sort of restriction and so by the time

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Speaker 1: there's you know, seventeen or eighteen, they're kind of full

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Speaker 1: fledged and then you launch them. But if you give

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Speaker 1: them that responsibility empowered age ten, they're just not developmentally

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Speaker 1: ready to handle it, and so you'll have a lot

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Speaker 1: of errors, big problems, big conflict and so on.

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Speaker 2: We're not going to say that one thing is guaranteed

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Speaker 2: to happen over another, but obviously you've got hesitation from

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Speaker 2: the data that you're looking at in letting children have

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Speaker 2: their phones at ten, eleven, twelve years of age, maybe

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Speaker 2: even thirteen. What kinds of issues have you seen arise

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Speaker 2: in your data that would make a parent want to

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Speaker 2: pause and consider going a little slowly.

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Speaker 1: There's so many different directions we could go with this.

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Speaker 1: The thing that comes to mind is social media. So

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Speaker 1: we use our phones for a lot of social media, right,

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Speaker 1: And a lot of young kids are on social media,

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Speaker 1: and social media can be really beneficial and you can

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Speaker 1: connect with a variety of people in different countries and

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Speaker 1: learn things and all sorts of positives, but there's a

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Speaker 1: lot there's kind of a darker negative side, right, So

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Speaker 1: you can have high cyberbullying, high social comparisons, high levels

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Speaker 1: of feeling like you're invisible or you're constantly excluded, and

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Speaker 1: when you're age eleven, twelve thirteen, again, you're just not

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Speaker 1: ready to navigate kind of the mind field of social

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Speaker 1: media by yourself. Even in adulthood, we still have trouble,

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Speaker 1: right with social media and certain activities, and so it's

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Speaker 1: really about scaffolding how to use social media and phones

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Speaker 1: in general to make them work for you as opposed

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Speaker 1: to your basically being a slave to them.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: And when you've got to twelve year old, it's just

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Speaker 2: all about the phone and not with my children is

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Speaker 2: when they've got their device on them, and we've taken

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Speaker 2: a very slowly slowly approach. We have one phone that

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Speaker 2: we call the family phone, and all of the children

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Speaker 2: get to share that on an as needs basis until

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Speaker 2: they're old enough to pay for their own phone. My

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Speaker 2: advice to parents has always been, if your kids want

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Speaker 2: a smartphone, they can have one when they can afford themselves.

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Speaker 2: And so as my kids have gotten older and they've

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Speaker 2: gone and gotten jobs, you know, age fifteen, sixteen, seventeen,

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Speaker 2: that's when they've gone and purchased their own devices, and

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Speaker 2: they're primarily responsible for them in accordance with the way

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Speaker 2: we operate devices in our home, according to our family

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Speaker 2: principles and rules, and that's worked very, very well for us.

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Speaker 2: But what I watch is when these younger kids have

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Speaker 2: got the family phone, if it goes thing, they that they.

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Speaker 3: Run for it.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's like, oh, my goodness, somebody's sent a message.

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Speaker 2: It's so rewarding to get that message. And then there's

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Speaker 2: an instant compulsion and an absolute need to respond immediately responses.

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Speaker 2: You can't go to somebody, you can't let it take

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Speaker 2: five minutes or ten minutes or or a day before

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Speaker 2: you get back to them. You've got to get back

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Speaker 2: to them right away so that they know that the

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Speaker 2: relationship is intact. And then all of a sudden there's

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Speaker 2: this snowball effect where they can't get off and they've

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Speaker 2: got to check this, and they've got to check that.

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Speaker 2: I mean even adults go down that particular rabbit hole.

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Speaker 2: It's a really compulsive sense that they have where they

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Speaker 2: feel like they need to be on that device.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So something that I study quite intently is media addiction.

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Speaker 1: And so that could be a video game addiction, or

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Speaker 1: social media addiction, or cell phone addiction or the three

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Speaker 1: that are most predominantly studied. And most people are okay

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Speaker 1: and they don't develop addiction, but about eight to ten

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Speaker 1: percent video gamers or users of social media or fill

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Speaker 1: in the blank, develop this pathological relationship with media where you're,

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Speaker 1: like you said, right, it's this compulsion I have to

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Speaker 1: check it, I have to be on it. I'm sitting here,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the next time I can play my

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Speaker 1: game or I can get on Twitter or whatever. And

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Speaker 1: something that our lab is doing right now. And I

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Speaker 1: wish I had the answer for you, But we're trying

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Speaker 1: to find out the root of a media addiction. Historically,

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Speaker 1: research has just examined it once it's already present, and

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Speaker 1: so we're starting from a very young age. Actually, like

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Speaker 1: birth right and following kids over time to try to

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Speaker 1: figure out what is our relationship early on in the

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Speaker 1: you know, in middle childhood and early childhood and that

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Speaker 1: early adolescence that then shapes your relationship with media over time.

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Speaker 2: So that sounds like it'd be like, what a fifteen

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Speaker 2: eighteen year study that you're in process of collecting data?

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Speaker 2: What kinds of things would you have to be looking

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Speaker 2: at to work that out? Of you looking at the

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Speaker 2: way parents are engaging with their children, how much media

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Speaker 2: is available in the home, their environment, what kinds of

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Speaker 2: things is sort of the variables of interest.

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Speaker 1: So many different things that we're looking at the study

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Speaker 1: we'und way for right now. And something that I'm really

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Speaker 1: excited about looking at is we call it media emotion regulation. So,

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Speaker 1: and you've seen it before and you've probably done it before.

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Speaker 1: It is some capacity. Right, you've got a kid, they're

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Speaker 1: at the grocery store, they're flipping out, they're tantruming, and

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Speaker 1: you're like, oh my gosh, just stop, here's a phone, right,

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Speaker 1: Or you're at a restaurant or anywhere. And our hypothesis

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Speaker 1: is that when parents are regularly regulating their children's emotions

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Speaker 1: for them with the device kids struggled to learn how

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Speaker 1: to cope with strong feelings in the real world without

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Speaker 1: the help of media. So they're really relying on me

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Speaker 1: as a coping mechanism, which then could lead to perhaps

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Speaker 1: addiction later on. So that's something that we're exploring right now. Again,

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Speaker 1: I don't have any results for you because we're only

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Speaker 1: on the way four, but you know, anecdotally and theoretically,

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Speaker 1: you'd expect that to be related.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So if a child is not able to regulate for THEMS,

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Speaker 2: they're relying on that external contingency of having the device

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Speaker 2: in their hand to soothe them and take their mind

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Speaker 2: away from the big emotions that are welling up inside them.

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Speaker 2: It seems like that leads them to rely on tech

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Speaker 2: as a coping mechanism or perhaps as an escape. So

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Speaker 2: once they're in their adolescent years, they just gravitate to it.

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Speaker 2: It's where they get their peace, it's where they get

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Speaker 2: their soothing, it's where they feel calm and back in control.

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Speaker 3: They feel a sense of relatedness.

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Speaker 2: To whoever they're gaming with or connecting with, and that

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Speaker 2: solves their problem in the short term.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and in fact, those types of items are on

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Speaker 1: media addiction measures in adolescents and adulthood, and so we're

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Speaker 1: trying to see if there's kind of a childhood route

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Speaker 1: to some of those.

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Speaker 3: Well, Sarah, I'm really curious.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we could write a dozen or more books

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Speaker 2: about all the research that you've done in so many areas,

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Speaker 2: but this whole media addiction thing is fascinating to me.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to explore your insights in a range of

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Speaker 2: those areas if we can. Now, So a two part

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Speaker 2: question for you. What have you found when it comes

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Speaker 2: to a couple of things. First, what are the associations

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Speaker 2: between children's media use and their well being, So the

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Speaker 2: quality of their relationships, their physical health, how they're sleeping,

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Speaker 2: academic outcomes, choices around what's safe and healthy and what's not.

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Speaker 2: So just general associations with media use. I mean, most

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Speaker 2: of us are fairly familiar that it's not a great

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Speaker 2: news story, but I'm sure that there's some interesting things

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Speaker 2: that you've found that would really be informative for parents.

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Speaker 2: And the second part of this is you've done some

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Speaker 2: research with Laura Walker, one of your colleagues at Brigham

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Speaker 2: Young University, and you specifically looked at the influence of

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Speaker 2: parents in relation to the way children are using media.

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Speaker 2: So I'd love to know what you've found that can

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Speaker 2: be helpful for parents to do and know when it

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Speaker 2: comes to managing these challenges around tech.

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Speaker 1: Okay, good questions, prefounser, So you're in your part one.

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Speaker 1: It absolutely depends on the way you use it. And

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Speaker 1: so we often think screens are bad for kids. And

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Speaker 1: that's a predominant message that I'm hearing right now. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: screens are responsible for the mental health crisis at least

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Speaker 1: in America. Screens are responsible for the increase in suicide

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Speaker 1: that's happening. You know, screens are bad.

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Speaker 2: How much of that comes from the work of Gene Twain,

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Speaker 2: guy at San Diego Rot. She's written that book about

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Speaker 2: odgen and she's said, in twenty twelve, we reached this

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Speaker 2: tipping point where more kids had screens than not, and

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Speaker 2: screen usage went up, and they stopped being outside and

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Speaker 2: they stopped doing all those things. And I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: pretty compelling research, but that's the narrative screens bad exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'll just share I'll share the results of

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Speaker 1: one recent study. So we looked at time spent on

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Speaker 1: social media and depression and anxiety over a six year

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Speaker 1: period of time across adolescence and emerging adulthood, and we

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Speaker 1: wanted to find out, you know, if I'm increasing in

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Speaker 1: my use of social media time, does my depression and

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Speaker 1: anxiety get worse? And maybe if I'm decreasing in my

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Speaker 1: time spent with social media, maybe my depression and anxiety

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Speaker 1: will get better because research hasn't looked at it with

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Speaker 1: that longer view. So when we did that, we found

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Speaker 1: that there was absolutely no effect of screen time on

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Speaker 1: mental health over a long period of time.

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Speaker 2: Can I just chime in and ask you've I feel

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Speaker 2: like there's two things that you're talking about here. You've

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Speaker 2: mentioned that you're looking at social media, but then you

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Speaker 2: just mentioned there's no effective screen time and social media

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Speaker 2: is part of screen time, but screen time is much

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Speaker 2: bigger than social media. So can I just get some

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Speaker 2: clarity in that specific finding. Are you finding that the

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Speaker 2: social media is not having is not showing any relationship

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Speaker 2: with those depressive or anxiety symptoms, or are you saying

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Speaker 2: that overall screen time but maybe social media does good

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Speaker 2: clarification question.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that study was specifically on social media, right,

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Speaker 1: And it makes sense when you think about it because

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Speaker 1: there's all sorts of things you can do on social media.

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Speaker 1: So let's say you and me spend an hour on

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Speaker 1: social media, right, So the time is identical, but what

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Speaker 1: we're doing can be vastly different. There's some really cool

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Speaker 1: research on the distinction between passive and active use. So

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Speaker 1: let's say that you're using your phone in a passive way, right,

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Speaker 1: you get on Instagram or Twitter, and you just scre

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Speaker 1: rolling and scrolling and scrolling. Coing to research, you're going

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Speaker 1: to be a little more depressed and anxious after that.

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Speaker 1: Let's say I spend my time and I'm using an

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Speaker 1: active way. So I'm posting myself, I'm commenting on other

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Speaker 1: people's posts, I'm liking I'm using it an active way.

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Speaker 1: Coin to research, my depressive symptoms actually go down. So like,

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Speaker 1: as you see, it's not the time that necessarily matters

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Speaker 1: in terms of this conversation, right, it's what you're doing

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Speaker 1: on it. So I think that we're missing we're just

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Speaker 1: having the wrong conversations in society right now. So instead

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Speaker 1: of just saying, you know, screens are bad, decrease screen

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Speaker 1: time and things will get better, they actually won't. We

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Speaker 1: have to empower and educate our youth on how to

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Speaker 1: use their screens in healthier ways, like one way that

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Speaker 1: I just mentioned.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So there's an opportunity cost that comes with

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Speaker 2: using a screen, right, So if you're on a screen,

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Speaker 2: you're not outside being active and being healthy and hanging

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Speaker 2: out with friends in that kind of thing. But then again,

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Speaker 2: you can be on a screen. I talk about the

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Speaker 2: three c's, right, So you've got consumption, connection, and creation.

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Speaker 2: So if we're using it purely for consumption, we're going

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Speaker 2: to see a decrease in well being because we're just

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Speaker 2: sitting there passively, like sitting on the couch eating ice

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Speaker 2: cream and watching a sad movie or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Whereas if we're connecting with people, we're going to feel

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Speaker 2: great usually as long as it's a positive, socially constructive

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Speaker 2: kind of connection.

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Speaker 3: And the same with creation.

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Speaker 2: If we're using our devices to create, that's usually going

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Speaker 2: to leave us feeling better.

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Speaker 3: We get into flow where we're developing, where we're doing

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Speaker 3: good things.

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Speaker 2: To me, the question has always been what kind rather

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Speaker 2: than how much when it comes to screen time, much

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Speaker 2: much more valuable conversation. Andrew Shabulski at Oxford talks about

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Speaker 2: you don't sit down with the kids and say, all right, kids,

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Speaker 2: how much food time have you had today? We don't

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Speaker 2: ask them that, we ask what kind of food have

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Speaker 2: you eaten today? And that's probably more aligned with the conversation.

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Speaker 2: This is such a minefield, right, there's a big debate

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Speaker 2: right now, does it or does it not cause depression

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Speaker 2: and mental health disorder? And you're seeming to come down

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Speaker 2: a very clear no, it does not, but it does

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Speaker 2: on what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very much of it can when you're using

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Speaker 1: it in the wrong way. Where I also think that

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Speaker 1: it might impact is when screens can interfere with sleep.

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Speaker 1: So sleep is vitally important as a protective factor for

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Speaker 1: both depression and anxiety during adolescens, and so in terms

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Speaker 1: of sheer time, that's the one area that I feel

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Speaker 1: like maybe there's something going on here, right, So when

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Speaker 1: it displaces time spent sleeping, and we know that many

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Speaker 1: adolescents sleep with their phone in their room right next

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Speaker 1: to their bed under their pillow, so they can hear

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Speaker 1: a buzz, right, So it really does interfere with sleep.

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Speaker 1: So that is something really to consider in terms of

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Speaker 1: just the overall screen time debate there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So what do parents do?

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Speaker 2: And I want to talk about young kids in a minute,

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Speaker 2: but let's just talk about the adolescence the way discussing

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Speaker 2: here in your research, what did your work with Laura

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Speaker 2: Walk lead to a decision about what can parents do

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Speaker 2: to mitigate or reduce the negative impacts that screens and

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Speaker 2: social media might have if they're using it too much

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Speaker 2: for consumption and not not the connection and creation.

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Speaker 1: So there's three broad areas of what we call p

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Speaker 1: rental mediation of media. The first is called restrictive mediation,

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Speaker 1: and that is the rules and regulations that parents set

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Speaker 1: around media. And it's kind of hard, right your kids

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Speaker 1: don't want any rules around media. They want to just

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Speaker 1: have free reign. But what we know is that giving

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Speaker 1: some sort of a structure helping your kids understand how

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Speaker 1: to use these in effective ways is really important, especially

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Speaker 1: early on. And ideally restrictive mediation is high in the

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Speaker 1: younger years and then decreases over time. Then the second

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Speaker 1: area is called active mediation, and those are the conversations

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Speaker 1: that you have with your child around media and it helps.

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Speaker 1: The purpose is to help them become a critical con

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Speaker 1: consumer of what they're seeing on television or in their

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Speaker 1: video game or in the interactions around social media. So

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Speaker 1: basically you're kind of pre arming them, giving them tools

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Speaker 1: that they need when they encounter or say, somebody who's

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Speaker 1: being bullied on social media, where they see a really

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Speaker 1: violent scene in a movie, right, and so, how can

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Speaker 1: I think about this? How does this impact the way

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Speaker 1: I think about the world, and so on. And then

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Speaker 1: the third one is called co viewing or co playing,

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Speaker 1: and this is particularly important really early on in life,

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Speaker 1: during kind of toddler preschool age, but can be effective

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Speaker 1: later on too. So that's basically when parents sit down

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Speaker 1: and use media together with their child, and basically that

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Speaker 1: just increases the effect, for positive or negative that media

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Speaker 1: will have. So let's say that you're sitting there watching

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Speaker 1: a really highly pro social film with your child, right,

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Speaker 1: they tend to be more pro social after that. If

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Speaker 1: you're watching a really violent film with your child and

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Speaker 1: not talking about it at all, it's kind of implicit

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Speaker 1: approval that violence is okay. So that last one you

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Speaker 1: kind of have to pair it with that act of

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Speaker 1: mediation that talking about the film to get it to

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Speaker 1: have a real positive impact.

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Speaker 3: So let's make this real life. What would a script

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Speaker 3: look like?

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Speaker 2: So you're sitting down and watching something with your your

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Speaker 2: nine year old, and there's some content that comes up

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Speaker 2: that's a little edgy for a nine year old.

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Speaker 3: There's some things that you're concerned about. Maybe it's violent,

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Speaker 3: Maybe there's a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Of intimacy that's beyond what a nine year old would

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Speaker 2: be comfortable with, or you're comfortable having your nine year

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Speaker 2: old view. Maybe there's just some course language, and you've

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Speaker 2: got some rules around how language is to be used

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Speaker 2: in the home. What kind of a conversation do you have.

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Speaker 2: Do you press pause on Netflix or on the DVD

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Speaker 2: and have the conversation there, and then do you wait

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Speaker 2: until the end of the movie. Do you talk about

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Speaker 2: it the next day? Let them sort of sit on

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Speaker 2: it and feel the discomfort, and what sort of a conversation.

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Speaker 3: Do you have.

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Speaker 1: What's really cool is that research shows that active mediation

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Speaker 1: is effective in the moment before the film starts or

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Speaker 1: after the film ends. And so I would just judge

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Speaker 1: the moment itself, right, Maybe your kid does need to

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Speaker 1: sit on it for a little while and percolate on it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you need to say something right then and there.

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Speaker 1: So I would say it absolutely depends and then what

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Speaker 1: that might look like in the moment. So I'll give

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Speaker 1: you an example with my nine year olds. Actually have

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Speaker 1: a nine year old right now. We just watched the

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Speaker 1: last movie we watched together was Remember the Titans, which

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Speaker 1: is a fantastic movie about race relations and football.

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Speaker 3: Sing it with me, Sarah. Everywhere we go, people want

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Speaker 3: to know, Yeah, it's very good. I love that movie.

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Speaker 3: Great movie.

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Speaker 1: It is a great movie. And so I'm in America

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Speaker 1: right now and we're having huge protests over police violence

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Speaker 1: aimed at black individuals, right, and so there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of big information that's happening that's kind of hard for

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Speaker 1: my younger kids to digest, and so we thought, you

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Speaker 1: know what, one way to have these conversations is from media.

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Speaker 1: So instead of showing him like CNN or something right

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Speaker 1: that's kind of beyond his level, like, we're gonna watch

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Speaker 1: Remember the Titans together and it's PG, right, so it's

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Speaker 1: made for a younger audience, but there's some still gritty

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Speaker 1: content and some things he was like, Oh why are

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Speaker 1: they hitting each other? Or oh why are they saying

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Speaker 1: those mean things to each other? And what it allowed

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Speaker 1: us to do then is to have a really nice conversation,

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Speaker 1: and we did it a little bit throughout, but mostly afterwards,

437
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: and then we followed up kind of over that course

438
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: of the week about how we treat people who maybe

439
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: look different than us, or who think different than us,

440
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: or who have a different religion than us, or so on.

441
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 1: And it was able to spark some really nice conversations.

442
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's been a week or two

443
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: and he just asked a question today. He remember that

444
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: scene and remember the Titans, and he wanted to keep going,

445
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 1: which I thought was fantastic. So media has that power

446
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: if we let it.

447
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: And I think what that story also does. It highlights

448
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 2: that if we can be accessible, available, open to our children,

449
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 2: they can actually come to us and have these conversations.

450
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 2: But we've got to we've got to open the door

451
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 2: and say, hey, let's let's do this. It sounds like

452
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: he's responded so well to that.

453
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And we certainly do not watch all media together,

454
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 1: and that's not realistic, right if five kids different ages

455
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: and so on. But there's a little bit of an

456
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 1: intentionality that goes into this to say, hey, you know,

457
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: here's our we are going to watch together as a family.

458
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: What are we going to watch now. Sometimes it's just

459
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 1: for entertainment, but sometimes there's a deeper purpose, and I

460
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: love that power of media for good when we allow

461
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: it to happen.

462
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 2: Sarah, one of the main reasons that I wanted to

463
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 2: interview you was a study that you did a few

464
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 2: years ago. It caught my eye, and in fact, that's

465
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: that's how I discovered who you were as a researcher

466
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: and began to follow your research a little more carefully.

467
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 2: You looked at this superhero study and it was with

468
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 2: young children, I think from memory it was four five

469
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: six year olds or thereabouts, which I would have thought

470
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 2: was probably a little on the young end to be

471
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: watching some of those superhero Marvel movies that are sometimes

472
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 2: a little violent, but obviously a lot of parents are

473
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 2: really comfortable with that. And so you've studied how children

474
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 2: respond to their interaction with those superhero characters and those movies.

475
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 3: Can you tell us a bit about that research and

476
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 3: what you found.

477
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, that was such a fun study to do.

478
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: So we looked at engagement with superhero culture, so it

479
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: involved identification with superhero characters, playing with superhero toys, and

480
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: then watching superhero media. And like you said, I didn't

481
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: expect a ton of four year olds to be watching

482
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 1: those Marvel movies, but there's quite a few that do. Right,

483
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 1: it's pretty high. And we were looking at a couple

484
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: of different things, but I'm really interested in defending behavior.

485
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: So this is somebody who's watching somebody getting picked on,

486
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: on the player getting bullied, and a defender is somebody

487
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: that stands up and says, hey, stop doing that, like,

488
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: you know, that's not very nice. So I'm going to

489
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: get a teacher and I'm going to protect this victim, basically,

490
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: because that's.

491
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 3: What superheroes do, right, They stick down.

492
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 1: Exactly. They're wonderful defenders, and so I thought, I wonder

493
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: if young kids pick up on those defending themes and

494
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: then you see a link to their behavior, say on

495
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: the playground, And what we found is the exact opposite.

496
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 1: So they're not better defenders. They're actually more aggressive over time,

497
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:40,719
Speaker 1: both more physically, relationally and verbally aggressive. And so at

498
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: a young age, it seems like they're not picking up

499
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: on the defending things because the violence is just so

500
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: right in your face, right, it's exciting, it's vivid. The

501
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: superheroes are cool, and they're punching a guy, so it's

502
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: hard for them to really disconnect, you know, the pretty

503
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: high levels of violence from the overall defending theme.

504
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: What I'm hearing is that if my children are watching

505
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 2: these movies and I want them to take the pro

506
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 2: social behaviors from the superheroes and learn the moral of

507
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: the story is that the good person wins and the

508
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: good person looks after those that need help, my kids

509
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 2: may not actually get that from the movie. What they

510
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 2: might get is might is right, and I can push

511
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 2: people around and bully people because the superhero is strong,

512
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 2: and I want to be like the superhero because that's

513
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 2: where the status is and that's cool.

514
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's correct. We even checked whether if you're talking

515
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: to your kid a lot about media at that young age,

516
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: if that moderates the effect, and it doesn't. So, you know,

517
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: at age four or five, the violence is just so

518
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: strong it's really hard to mitigate that. So superhero films

519
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: are really fun and they're a huge part of culture.

520
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: I'm not downing superhero films at all, right, but they're

521
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: not made for four year olds. They're just not developmentally

522
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: ready to process those kind of messages.

523
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: So what you said to parents who are like, well,

524
00:26:58,280 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: you know, they hassle me and their big brother or

525
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 2: big sisters watching it, and everyone's talking about it and

526
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: everyone wants to be a Batman or everyone wants to

527
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 2: be Deadpool. These characters have got so much credibility even

528
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: in the grade one playground or classroom. How do parents

529
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 2: navigate that? Do they just? I mean, I know what

530
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 2: I would encourage parents to say, but I'd love to

531
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 2: hear it from you because you're doing the research. What

532
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: have you seen is effective in dealing with our four, five, six,

533
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: seven year olds, even our ten year olds that want

534
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 2: to watch content, it's probably a little bit negative in

535
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: terms of the influence on their behavior.

536
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: So it's impossible to get completely away from superhero culture, right, Like,

537
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: it's all over the place from a very very young age.

538
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: My own kids, my own young kids like superheroes and

539
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 1: they know who they are, and they dress up as superheroes. Right,

540
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: and so my recommendation is moderation, So absolute moderation. Make

541
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: sure your kids have lots of different interests, and one

542
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: of those can be superheroes. And they might have a

543
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: Batman costume, but they also have a Menion costume or

544
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: a rappunful costume or all sorts of different you know

545
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: options here, and then again avoid those more gritty superhero

546
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: programs that are aimed toward teenagers or an adults until

547
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: they're at that age, and then I'll give them examples

548
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 1: of defenders you know in the news media or in

549
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: fiction that are better. Example, So like Martin Luther King

550
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: Junior is one of my heroes who is a strong,

551
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: powerful defender, and so that's somebody I want my kid

552
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: to aspire to be like. And so we read stories

553
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 1: about him, and we listen to his speeches, and I'm

554
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: hoping that those kind of things stick a little bit

555
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: more than say, say Superman or Batman.

556
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: I've got another quick question for you on this.

557
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: I vaguely recall that you did a study that looked

558
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: at the impact of you know, pink toys and blue toys,

559
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: gender stereotyping toys that are explicitly and specifically marketed to

560
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: girls and boys.

561
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: We did say on Prince Us is that one we

562
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: found for girls, the more they were into princess culture,

563
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: the more gender stereotype they were a year later. So

564
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: in fact, they were more girly right a year later,

565
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: which can be really limiting in a number of ways.

566
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: So girls who hold up strongly to female stereotypes limit

567
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: themselves so they'll believe they can do well in math

568
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: and science. They're less likely to want to go to university,

569
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: less likely to want to have a career, more likely

570
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: to want to marry somebody who has just a lot

571
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: of money, and so on. Right, So there's some limitation

572
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: that they do to themselves there. So that was the finding.

573
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: And then we sound some really interesting things for boys.

574
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: So boys who were into princess culture tend to be

575
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: more androgynous, which is really a good finding. It means

576
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: they're kind of more balanced there, and they had better

577
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: body image and more higher levels of pro social behavior.

578
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 3: Wow.

579
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: So interesting things for young preschool boys who watched Disney

580
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: princess movies or more into princess culture.

581
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: Right, so I encourage the boys to watch more Disney

582
00:29:59,000 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: and get the girls away from it.

583
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: What you're saying, well, it kind of depends as well.

584
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: My answer is always like it depends.

585
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that's a fairly reductionist, simplistic way of

586
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: looking at it, But what I'm really hearing is that

587
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: these stereotypes that our boys and girls adhere to will

588
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: often limit their capacity for the future if they if

589
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 2: they stay true to those stereotypes.

590
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 3: But also it's probably going to have some impact on.

591
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: The quality of the relationships that they have, both within

592
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: their own gender and between the genders.

593
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's absolutely the case, and it kind of depends

594
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: on the princess. So what we've seen is that princesses

595
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: are evolving markedly, right, and so now we have princesses

596
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: that are really independent and really strong and so on.

597
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: Yet when when we market them and we create merchandise

598
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: for them, it's very feminized and so it's all about

599
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: the pretty, glittery dress and so on. Whereas when you

600
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: look at, say, the character of Elsa, she is this complex, nuanced,

601
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: powerful character. Sometimes we miss when we focus on, oh,

602
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: you just look so pretty in your cute little Elsa dress. Right,

603
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: and so it often depends on what we buy for

604
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: our children in the way that we interact with them

605
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: around princess culture. Again, princess culture is neither good nor bad.

606
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: It's all depends on what we do with it.

607
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 3: Who's your favorite princess? Sarah?

608
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: So she actually asked us in job interviews. When I

609
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: interview research assistants, so I thought deeply, she's not technically

610
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: a princess, she should be. My favorite is Jane from Tarzan.

611
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: So Jane is a.

612
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 3: Professor, definitely not a princess.

613
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, princesses themselves are yes.

614
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: Okay, so she's your favorite Disney female character, is what you're.

615
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: Saying, absolutely, because you know, female professors are just coool.

616
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: My more recent one, though, I really like. I like Elsa,

617
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: and I really like Mowana. I loved watching Mowana, the

618
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: family connections with the grandparents and the defending and the eventu.

619
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: I just really loved that particular film.

620
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Mwana was so curious.

621
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: And what I love about these stories is they're all

622
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: about identity quests, right. We see these characters trying to

623
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 2: discover who they are.

624
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 3: And I would agree with you.

625
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 2: I think that the Disney princesses or the female Disney

626
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: leads over time have become increasingly strong and nuanced and complex.

627
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 2: But like you said, once the marketing kicks in, it

628
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: seems to be again really reductionist. It's like, okay, well,

629
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: you're a Disney princess, so we're going to make you

630
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: look pretty and dress everybody up like you and forget

631
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 2: about all of the rest of the complexity of the character.

632
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So Mulan is another one of my favorites. I

633
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: just love the story of Mulan. But when you see

634
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: Mulan as a doll or on a lunch box or

635
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: fruit staks, right, she's always the pretty Mulan and the kimono,

636
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: And that's the Mulan she never wanted to be, if

637
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: you've seen the film, right. And so again Disney, I

638
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: think Disney's progressing in some really important ways, and we

639
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: take a step back in the way that we market

640
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: it to young kids.

641
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 3: And who's your favorite superhero?

642
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: Wonder Woman? Of course?

643
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: What about?

644
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: What about really fun? I have a fun story about this.

645
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: So my graduate student was about to give birth and

646
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: she watched Wonder Woman like a month before she gave

647
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: birth and said, that's it. I'm not having any drugs.

648
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: Like she felt so empowered like this, you know, female embodiment.

649
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what it was. And so she went

650
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: to give birth and then got us frush you onto it.

651
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: Never mind, I want the drugs for other much. But

652
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: I just love that Wonder Woman in particular. I just

653
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: think it is just fantastic, So she's my favorite.

654
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: Now that story is also instructive because of highlights just

655
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 2: how impactful the media is and our beliefs in our attitudes.

656
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: You know, she's she's watched Wonder Woman, which which is

657
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,479
Speaker 2: so far fetched and so obviously fictional and fantasy, and

658
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: she would have known that she's researching in this area

659
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 2: with you, and yet watching it made her feel invincible.

660
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: It made her feel like she could do something. Clearly,

661
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 2: once she got into the moment, she had a change

662
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: of heart. But these movies are affecting adults, so imagine

663
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: what they must be doing to our children.

664
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and there's some scholars who would lead you to

665
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: believe that media has no impact on a set of

666
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: which I think is just really naive. Right, the advertising

667
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: industry would collapse immediately if that was the case. But

668
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: then you do see that media impacts even adults, you know,

669
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 1: as this story just shown, and certainly if it impacts adults,

670
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: it has a profound impact on kids.

671
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,959
Speaker 2: Sarah, you mentioned this graduate student of yours that took

672
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: some leave so that she could have a child, and

673
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 2: that brings me to some other research that you've done

674
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 2: that I think is really interesting. And would be particularly

675
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: important to the people listening to this podcast. So I've

676
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: got two more research questions that i want to ask

677
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 2: you as we move towards the end of our conversation,

678
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 2: and the first relates to body image and pregnancy. Next interview,

679
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to be speaking with Renee Engeln about the.

680
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 3: Beauty sick culture that we live in.

681
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 2: So I don't want to talk about our kids or

682
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: not even too much about the beauty sickness that's all

683
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 2: around us in the way it expect it affects females.

684
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: But I'm particularly interested by the research that you've done

685
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: with mums.

686
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 3: After they've had their babies.

687
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 2: So you did some research with pregnant and postpartu mums

688
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 2: about how body.

689
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 3: Image is being.

690
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: Battered, and I'd love for you to talk a bit

691
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 2: about that and what mums can do to love their

692
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: bodies for the miracles that they are.

693
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: So briefly, the media sends a pretty big lie on

694
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: what your body looks like during pregnancy in the postpartum period, right,

695
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 1: So it tells you you should be back in your genes,

696
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: you know, within just a couple of weeks, which is

697
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: completely unrealistic. We found that just reading five minutes of

698
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 1: a celebrity magazine how to decrease on pregnant women's body image.

699
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: It only took five minutes. Right after listening to some

700
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: of those types of stories, and then when we interviewed

701
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: Mom's Pregnant and postpartum, they had some really interesting things

702
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: to say. You know, they said, we know the media's photoshopped,

703
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,959
Speaker 1: we know it, but it still impacts us. It still

704
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: makes us feel bad about our bodies and our stretch

705
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: marks and still mikes and all these different things, and

706
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: we think that it's such a lie. And so you

707
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: really have to be thoughtful and careful when you're being

708
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: exposed to media to recognize the power of your own

709
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: body and the belief that you're creating something so beautiful

710
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: and so wonderful right there. And it's not just all

711
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: about the way you look, which is what media tells

712
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: you that you're worth as a woman really is in today's.

713
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 3: Society, it's fascinating research. And this is not exactly new.

714
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: I mean, we've had science for a few decades now

715
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 2: that has said just spending a few minutes in a

716
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: celebrity oriented magazine is enough to make people, make women,

717
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: specifically feel less because the emphasis so much is that

718
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 2: your value as.

719
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 3: A human is dependent on your physical appearance.

720
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: Was there anything else that stood out to you as

721
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 2: you did that research with these moms who are obviously

722
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: suddenly feeling lousy just because they're having a baby, and

723
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 2: that don't look like the people in the magazines.

724
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 1: This is a different study that we did and it

725
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: was about the transition to parenting, but I think it's

726
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: relevant here. So when we asked new moms how much

727
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: they compare themselves to other people on social media, we

728
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 1: found that if you're saying, hey, I'm doing this frequently,

729
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: I'm comparing myself to other moms, especially, they tended to

730
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: feel more depressed, lower printal efficacy, which means that you

731
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: don't feel like you're a very good mom, lower printal competence,

732
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: like hey, I can't do this, and a worse co

733
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: parenting relationship with your partner, which is like we don't

734
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: really do all that well together. And so it's not

735
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 1: just celebrity magazines, right, it's just the day to day

736
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: social media, and so most people put this perfect image

737
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 1: of themselves on as a parent in terms of the

738
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: way they look their kids, how they're behaving and like, hey,

739
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 1: I've got this all together. But realistically, parenting and especially

740
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: when you're a new mom, is really hard. It's like

741
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: really hard, right, hardest job on the planet, And it

742
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: would be wonderful if we could have a little more

743
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: authenticity in what we post on social media ourselves, and

744
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: then also just a real critical eye to say, you

745
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: know what they're probably if their lives is not this

746
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: perfect picture that they're portraying in terms of motherhood.

747
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like I feel like mums in particular,

748
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: that's not so much although some but mums in particular

749
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: just need to be more gentle to themselves and recognize.

750
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 3: It's a tough gig.

751
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: You put your body through a lot and you're okay,

752
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 2: just keep moving forward, you do an okay, It's a.

753
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 1: Lot of momm and guilt that happened all different levels. Yeah,

754
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: and I think media can really exacerbate that if I'm

755
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: not careful.

756
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: Well, Sarah, let's take an abrupt turn to one more

757
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 2: recent study that you've been involved in. Now this wasn't

758
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 2: your research, but you were involved in it as in

759
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 2: a supervisory capacity, and I think that it's just so

760
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 2: important that I wanted to touch on it before we

761
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 2: wrap up, and I ask you my rapid fire famous

762
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 2: five questions to end the conversation. Recently, you've been investigating

763
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: with a colleague how children cope following a parent's death

764
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: by suicide. Recently, I had a conversation with a mum.

765
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: She was talking with me and told me that her

766
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 2: six year old and nine year old daughters were going

767
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 2: through some fairly significant grief because their dad had died

768
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: by suicide in the month's previous to our conversation.

769
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 3: So I was.

770
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 2: Preparing to say to her, well, you know, let's talk

771
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 2: about how we can help them through their grief, looking

772
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 2: forward to a conversation that would be full of hope and.

773
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 3: Focused on the.

774
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: Ways that she could be that strength and that foundation

775
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 2: for them, when she said, actually, that's only part of

776
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 2: the reason I'm calling. The other reason that I want

777
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 2: to talk to you is because I've just received notice

778
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,720
Speaker 2: that I've got stage four breast cancer.

779
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: It's terminal, and I only have a couple of months

780
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 3: to live.

781
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: So just to really hard such a devastating and such

782
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: a such a hard conversation, and so I took a

783
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: very very deep breath before I started to talk to her,

784
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 2: But I just sort of I thought to myself, here's

785
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 2: these kids. They've lost a dad to suicide. Their mum's

786
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 2: prognosis is devastating, it's terminal. What did your research reveal

787
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: when it comes to children and losing a parent to suicide.

788
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: So this was a qualitative study, and we interviewed a

789
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: variety of people, all in adulthood, and they were reflecting

790
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: on their experiences when there were children. All of them

791
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: reported it was, you know, a very significant event in

792
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 1: their life that they still carried with them today, that

793
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: they thought about it regularly in terms of I think

794
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: the most useful thing we found from the study is

795
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: the way that you talk to children around a pretty

796
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: traumatic event like that. So there was a range and

797
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: a variety of our participants said, you know, people tried

798
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: to sweep it under the rug, or tried to protect me,

799
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: try to just move forward, distract me, and they said,

800
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: you know, that was a pretty negative thing in my life.

801
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: I wish that people would have been real with me.

802
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: I wish that they would have been honest with me.

803
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: I wish they would have talked to me and other

804
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: participants who had experiences where you know, we got social

805
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: services in and we got resources, and we had people

806
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: who were real to them and talk to them as

807
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: if they were real people tended to have better outcomes

808
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: on the whole. So this is, you know, a the

809
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 1: traumatic event. Kids need to talk about it, right, they

810
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: need to have those conversations in a developmentally appropriate way.

811
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: Well, that was the next thing I was going to ask,

812
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: what difference did it make in terms of the age

813
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 2: of the child when the parent died.

814
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we had all sorts of ranges, Some like

815
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: it during infancy and even then when they didn't remember

816
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: the event, it was still a part of their life.

817
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: And so even then they said, you know, growing up,

818
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: some families would brush that under the rug, pretend it

819
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: never happened. Some families would still talk about it, and

820
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: the families that talked about it tended to have the

821
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: better outcomes over time. And so I would say, it

822
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 1: doesn't really matter, you know, the age of the child.

823
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: It depends on the you know, the conversation and the

824
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: content will differ. But just to be open and honest,

825
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: listening to their feelings, having those conversations I think is

826
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: important over the course of development.

827
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing that.

828
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 2: It's such important research, and I think that while it

829
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 2: will be a small percentage of people who are affected

830
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 2: so directly, we need to know that it's okay to

831
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 2: have these conversations and to use woods like suicide and

832
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 2: to still honor that family member, honor that parent, honor

833
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 2: that person that means so much, and clearly the research

834
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: that you've done has shown that that's the way that

835
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: we get the better outcomes. Well, Sarah, I've just loved

836
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 2: talking with you. You've been wonderfully generous with your time,

837
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 2: and it's been tremendous to hear your insights and understand

838
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: a little bit more about your research. With every podcast

839
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 2: that I do, I wrap it up with five quick questions.

840
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 2: Everyone gets the same ones, and they're supposed to be

841
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: a fairly rapid fire. So here we go. The first

842
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 2: question is this, if we ask your five children their

843
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 2: favorite thing to do with you, what would.

844
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: They say, think, snuggle and read books in my bed?

845
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 3: Beautiful? What's been your trickiest parenting moment. You've got five kids,

846
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 3: so I'm guessing you've had a few.

847
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,720
Speaker 1: One that comes to mind, So I studied game addiction,

848
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: and I have a child who loves video games, and

849
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: so navigating that relationship is tricky. He's fifteen right now.

850
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 2: Let me just take this on a quick tangent. I

851
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 2: know it's meant to be really quick, but I'm fascinated

852
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 2: by this. Do you find yourself doing all this stuff

853
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 2: from time to time that you're not supposed to do,

854
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 2: you know, because you're an exasperated, frustrated parent. You're not

855
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 2: being the college professor right now, You're just being the

856
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: parent that just wants this kid to get off the

857
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 2: screen and put it away and do as they're told.

858
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 2: Or do you find that you're actually pretty good at

859
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 2: following the best practice guidelines that your research points to.

860
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: Depends on the day. But as a parenting expert, and

861
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: you'll know this, you know exactly when you're not doing

862
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 1: what you should do, and you're like, don't and I

863
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: know better than this, but I'm just so annoyed at

864
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: you right now, right.

865
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, every now, and to get my kids will actually

866
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 2: look at me and say, I've been to your workshop's dad.

867
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 3: You're not supposed to do that, right now?

868
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: I know, all right, I know better than this, but

869
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: parenting is not easy, all right.

870
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: Question number three, If you could spend an hour with

871
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: your children at any age at all. So let's say

872
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: tomorrow after school, Oh, you're in your summer hole. Well

873
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 2: we're having this conversation. But let's say that at school's

874
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: on or whatever, and tomorrow afternoon they come back in

875
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: from their activities of their school, it's two or three

876
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 2: o'clock in the afternoon, they walk into your living room.

877
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 3: At that age, what age would you pick? And why?

878
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: Four years old is my absolute favorite age. They're party trained,

879
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: which is great, or a little independent, but they're just

880
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: so sweet and loving and creative, and I just love

881
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 1: that age.

882
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, beautiful.

883
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 2: So, no matter how good life has been for you, Sarah,

884
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: and no matter how glad you are to be in

885
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 2: the moment with your children, in terms of when you

886
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 2: look at the future, what's in front of them, the

887
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: milestones that they yet to achieve, all the experiences that

888
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 2: you're going to have as a mum watching them grow

889
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: and develop. What would be a milestone. It is something

890
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 2: in their future that you are just so excited to see,

891
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 2: so excited to watch and be a part of.

892
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: That is a great question. You know, this is an

893
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: odd answer, but I am excited for them to go

894
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: through something really hard, like something really difficult for them

895
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: and then watch them navigate that and then see significant

896
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: growth afterwards. You know, you never want your kids to

897
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: get hurt or to be sad or whatever, and so

898
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: I don't hope for that to happen. But I love

899
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: to watch my kids grow and I love to watch

900
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: them do hard things.

901
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 2: It's funny because when I talk about what the trickiest

902
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 2: parent moment is with many parents, they'll say, it's so

903
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,800
Speaker 2: hot watching my children suffer and go through hot things.

904
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: It is so hard, It's so true. But there's some

905
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: joy there when there's growth.

906
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I love that.

907
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 2: Okay, last question, if you could go back to Sarah

908
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 2: con as a young mom having one of those tough

909
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: moments with no experience at this parenting thing at all,

910
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 2: what advice would you give yourself?

911
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: Be kinder on yourself. This is the hardest gig on

912
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 1: the planet, right, and you're going to have days where

913
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: you're just going to sit on your floor and just cry. Right,

914
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: But it's going to be okay. You're doing better than

915
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: you think you are, and those kids are going to

916
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: love you and you're going to love them more than

917
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:56,240
Speaker 1: you ever dreamed possible.

918
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,280
Speaker 3: Ah. Well, that's just beautiful. Sarah, Thank you so much.

919
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 3: It's been a delight to talk to you.

920
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 2: If anybody wanted to know more about you, do you

921
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 2: have like a website or anything, or are you just

922
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 2: completely esconced in academia and they've got to go and

923
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: read all your papers.

924
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 1: Now my grad soon just said you need a website,

925
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: so she just made one for me. It's Sarah m

926
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: mccoin cyny dot com and we have a little bit

927
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,720
Speaker 1: on there. I'm also on psychology today, have a blog

928
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: there as well.

929
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 2: Brilliant and queen. Can we look forward to like a

930
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 2: book in the future from you. I'm sure that you'd

931
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 2: have publishers lining up to discover what your research says

932
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: about parents and the media and children.

933
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 3: Is anything like that on the horizon, I hope.

934
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: So I'm just stuck right in the middle of this

935
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: giant longitudinal study, so hopefully we'll have time to write

936
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 1: a book when we're night collecting data.

937
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 3: Brilliant.

938
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 2: Well, Sarah, I've enjoyed this conversation so very much.

939
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 3: I can't thank you enough for your time.

940
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. It was great to see with there.

941
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 3: Well, what a great conversation.

942
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 2: I hope you've gotten some insight into Professor Sarah Coyn

943
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 2: as well as the way our children are using media

944
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 2: as a result of this.

945
00:47:57,960 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 3: Parenting in Perspective podcast.

946
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but I found it fascinating

947
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: that whole concept of active versus passive social media usage

948
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 2: and how we can use that to teach our children

949
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 2: great habits when they're using their devices. Join me, Doctor

950
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 2: Justin Colson next time as I talk with Professor Renee

951
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 2: Ngeln about how girls see beauty, their appearance, their body image.

952
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 3: It is a.

953
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 2: Really really important topic if you're bringing up a young lady.

954
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 4: The research around puberty is so clear that it tends

955
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 4: to make boys like their bodies more right. It brings

956
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 4: boys bardies more in line with the adeal, but with girls,

957
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 4: because puberty tends to increase the amount of body fat

958
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 4: you have, it actually is moving them farther from the

959
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 4: body ideal for women, and there's something really twisted and

960
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 4: wrong about that.

961
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 2: That's one of the most fascinating conversations I might ever

962
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 2: have had with Professor Renee Engeln. She's the author of

963
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: Beauty Sick and is my next guest on the Parenting

964
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 2: in Perspective podcast and Just before we go, a very

965
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: big thank you to everybody who is five star reviews

966
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 2: at the Apple Podcasts page around this podcast.

967
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 3: It means so very much to me.

968
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,760
Speaker 2: This one from Martin Johnson who said I must listen

969
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: for any parent. Martin said, I stumbled across this podcast

970
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 2: when doctor Justin Coulson was interviewed on another podcast, and honestly,

971
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 2: it's changed the type of mother I am. I was

972
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 2: always in a constant power struggle with my toddler, and

973
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 2: I had no idea how to navigate through the relentless conflict.

974
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 2: Thank you for the practical, life changing advice. It's only

975
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 2: been two weeks, but I have binge listened to every

976
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: podcast episode now and I'm so grateful for what I've

977
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: learned already.

978
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 3: When you know better, you can do better.

979
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure my daughter has you to thank for

980
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 2: a much happier and calmer childhood. What a beautiful review.

981
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 2: Thank you so very much, Martine. It means a great deal,

982
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 2: and it's those reviews. Please keep them coming because they

983
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 2: help other people to find the podcast. Apple will prioritize

984
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: podcasts that get lots of reviews and lots of five

985
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: star ratings, and that way we can help other families

986
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 2: so flourish and have the same experiences that you're having,

987
00:49:58,440 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for doing that.

988
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 3: Please please tell you friends about the podcast. Please leave

989
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 3: a review.

990
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 2: We want to get the word out if you like

991
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: more information on how I can help your family to

992
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: do better, particularly if you would like to have some

993
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 2: ongoing monthly support via our amazing Happy Families memberships. All

994
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 2: the info is at happy families dot com dot a

995
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 2: you we're finding that more and more people are joining

996
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 2: up the families, getting bigger and hopefully happier every day,

997
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 2: or you can visit my Facebook page doctor Justin Colson's

998
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 2: Happy Families. As always a great big thank you to

999
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 2: Justin rule On for his work in producing the podcast

1000
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 2: and making it sound just great, and thank you for

1001
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 2: listening to Parenting in Perspective a Happy Families podcast.