1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Domestic violence prevention Minister Robin Carl made headlines this week 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: when she questioned Elizabeth Armitage's approach when it came to 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: the coronial inquest into the deaths of four Aboriginal women, 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: saying she found the long anticipated report failed so dismally 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: to hit the mark. Minister Carl said the coroner's approach 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 1: had been protracted, resulting in lengthy reports delivered in a 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: manner seeming to lack the humility that one might expect 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: from an officer of the court, more focused on the 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: reveal rather than the result. Minister Robin Carl joins me 10 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: on the line ahead of Parliament sitting today. Good morning 11 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: to your minister. 12 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: Good morning Katie. 13 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: Minister. What did you What did you feel the coroner 14 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: missed in her report? 15 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: Well, I think Katie, what she missed was the very 16 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: thing that she stated she was going to do and 17 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 2: acknowledged in the body of her report, which was radical 18 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: change was needed. We couldn't keep doing things the same way. 19 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 2: And then after the very long process that she undertook, 20 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: for some reason that I really can't understand, having gone 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: through the report, she changed her mind and went, actually, no, 22 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: we don't need to be radical, We'll just keep doing 23 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 2: more of the same. So for me, it was an 24 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: opportunity to really send a very strong message that we 25 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: can't keep doing more of the same. It could have 26 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 2: been given her impromata to say, please change how we 27 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 2: approach things in this space, and she didn't do that. 28 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: What would you have liked to have seen? 29 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think what I would have liked to have 30 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 2: seen where she actually made some really important points around 31 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 2: how we need to be empowering our communities to actually 32 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 2: have the ability to stand up and call out behaviors 33 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 2: of perpetrators when they're in community, how we protect the 34 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: victims survivors of domestic violence so they can remain in 35 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: their community. How do we actually create those frameworks so 36 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: that we don't disrupt people? And she'd called out the behavior. 37 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: She called it out multiple times in the report. She 38 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: called out the fact that culture had now become weaponized 39 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 2: in the con coercive control space. She called out the 40 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 2: fact that miss Unipingu's the part her partner's family forcibly 41 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 2: returned her to the community when she had managed to 42 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: escape the community, and we all know the tragic result 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 2: of that. So she called out the behavior. She could 44 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 2: have framed a recommendation that said, we can see this 45 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: as an issue, this has to be addressed, and I 46 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 2: strongly urged that, you know, steps be taken to empowered 47 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 2: communities to do that. And while she hasn't made that 48 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: call in the recommendations, the fact that it is in 49 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: her report and that she has provided evidence in the 50 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 2: report around that, I take some heart in the fact 51 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: that we can actually use that evidence to actually frame 52 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 2: our response going forward. 53 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: Minister, do you are you concerned that you know that 54 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: we are seeing a situation here where people are not 55 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: calling out some of that behavior for fear of being 56 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: labeled racist. 57 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, without question. And I also feel that in 58 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: our communities, and I've been to communities, I've talked to 59 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 2: many many people, we've lived experience. I've talked to the 60 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: not for profit sector, I've talked to the departmental people. 61 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: I've talked to them very candidly about where we're where 62 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: the falling down in this space has been, and where 63 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 2: we really need to refocus and rechange how we're doing things. 64 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: And they are very afraid of standing up and calling 65 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: that out without the protection of the evidence behind it. 66 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: So it's not about saying, like, when you look at 67 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: what Greg Kavanaugh said in two thousand and six and 68 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: called out the fact that we cannot allow this sort 69 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: of behavior to continue in our communities, and here we 70 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: are two decades later, still having the exact same situations, 71 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: in fact, worse situations occurring. We absolutely have to assist 72 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: our communities and the people living in those communities to 73 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: be able to deliver a program and to support the 74 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: victims of domestic violence in their community and really hold 75 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 2: perpetrators to account. We cannot have a situation where a 76 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 2: perpetrator's family goes, actually, you know what. We know that 77 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 2: he's beating you, we know that he's assaulting you, but 78 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: you need to be back here because that's really important 79 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 2: from the cultural connection that he gives you to this community. 80 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 2: Of course, miss Unipinghu had a cultural connection to her community, 81 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 2: and of course that was absolutely critical. But surely her 82 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: safety should have come before that. 83 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: Minister, you were scathing in your remarks about the coroner, 84 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: saying that her approach has been protracted, resulting in lengthy 85 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: reports delivered in a manner seeming to lack the humility 86 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: that one might expect from an officer of the court. 87 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: We all focused on the reveal rather than the result. 88 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: Do you think she's the right person for the role? 89 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 2: Well, what I think is that she did the work. 90 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: She definitely did the work. She took a very long 91 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 2: time to do it, so she obviously knows where to look, 92 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: where to get the answers, what to examine. She absolutely 93 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: gave voices to these women who deserve those voices. What 94 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: I think was missing was the urgency of getting to 95 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: the end of that, gathering that information and making those recommendations. 96 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 2: We all know that the longer it takes, the less 97 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: likely is you're going to be able to have a 98 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: very effective approach. So it was just the one thing 99 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 2: that I really took away from my review of what 100 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 2: had happened in the past that a detailed and comprehensive 101 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: review of a situation and investigation of a situation does 102 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 2: not need to take a year. And when you drag 103 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 2: some thing out, it drags it out for the families, 104 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 2: it drags it out for the communities, and it means 105 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: everybody is just left waiting to see what that recommendation 106 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 2: would be. So waiting seventeen months to hear what the 107 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: outcome of her investigation was was simply too long and 108 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 2: quite frankly, very expensive, Katie. That's the thing that power 109 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 2: us I realized. So the actual coronial cost just under 110 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: half a million dollars, and that does not take into 111 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: account the costs that were incurred by departments for their 112 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 2: role in the coronial. So, for example, the Department of 113 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: Children's and Families expended one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars. 114 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: I'm sure that there were similar costs incurred by the 115 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: police as well. So I would be very surprised if 116 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 2: when we pulled all of the costs together it didn't 117 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 2: get close to a million dollars. I would much rather 118 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: spend that million dollars delivering services. And when you compare 119 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 2: it to the average cost of coronials across the year, 120 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 2: which is about six and a half thousand dollars, it's significant. 121 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: And that's what happens when something is protracted and prolonged 122 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 2: and doesn't actually give us that really short, sharp assessment 123 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: of what went wrong, where it went wrong, and what 124 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: we should be doing to address it. 125 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: I know Justine Davis well, yesterday she joined us on 126 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: the show and said she found it concerning that the 127 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: COLP government was commenting on the Coronia's the Coroner's sorry, 128 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: the coroner's reports. Should there be a separation of powers? 129 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: And are you crossing a line? Is the government crossing 130 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: a line by, you know, by commenting on the coroner's 131 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: reporting and the costs or Katie? 132 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 2: The coroner demanded that we comment on her report. That's 133 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: what she required. And the report, it's not so much 134 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: the report, it's the recommendations that came out of it. 135 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 2: That's what I was commenting on. I really was hoping 136 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: that it would provide us with the evidence and the 137 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: support that we need to really ill change in this space. 138 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: And of course there's a separation of powers. She has 139 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: the power to do and say whatever she wants, and 140 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: that's clearly what she's done. But at the end of 141 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: the day, if you submit my report and you want 142 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 2: someone to comment on it, you shouldn't be offended when 143 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: comments are given simply because you don't like what the 144 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: comments are. 145 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: Are we getting to a difficult situation at the moment 146 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: with the coroner now? I mean, obviously some of the 147 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: recommendations I know that you and the government have accepted 148 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: and obviously not in your portfolio, but the government also 149 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: taking a look through the recommendations that were handed down 150 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: into the coronial inquest into Kumenji Walker. But are we 151 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: reaching a situation here in the Northern Territory where the 152 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: government potentially isn't really taking seriously recommendations that the coroner's providing. 153 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 2: I don't think so, Katie. I think what people probably 154 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 2: don't realize that coronial recommendations are seeing that recommendations that 155 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 2: governments can take on board or not take on board. 156 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: That's historical, that's never been any different. What I would 157 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 2: say is that it's pretty obvious under previous government's recommendations 158 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 2: were made were more often than not ignored and not 159 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: taken on board. We really wanted to take this and 160 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: on board. An actual fact, we have taken them on 161 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 2: board because, as I said in my report to Parliament, 162 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 2: twenty four of the recommendations are already accommodated in programs 163 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 2: and services that are currently being delivered. And I'd also 164 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: make the observation that Justine said, oh, we don't know 165 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: where the money is going and we don't know where 166 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: the money is being spent. Well, we actually issued a 167 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: release back in May the detailed where the thirty six 168 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: million dollars that we've committed is being spent, what the 169 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: programs are that are being supported, and we very much 170 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: are are focusing in those areas that the coroner noted 171 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:56,959 Speaker 2: needed to have focused but didn't give us an entry 172 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: point to say, but we can do it differently, can 173 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 2: take a different approach, Minister. 174 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: I know, as you've just touched on there, the COLP 175 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: government supports twenty two recommendations, accepts ten in principle, does 176 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: not support three. Now one of those recommendations related to 177 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: programs and processes. Sorry, twenty four of the thirty five, 178 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: as you said, recommended related to programs and processes already 179 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 1: in place. But then one of the new recommendations called 180 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: for early intervention to break the cycle of violence for 181 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: young people. What has the government done in this space? 182 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 2: In order to break that cycle, you have to be 183 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 2: able to get to those kids before they start down 184 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: a path that's impossible to reverse. And I know that 185 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: the members of the opposition and those on the crossbench 186 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 2: love to say that they don't agree with this, and 187 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: that's fine. They don't have to agree with this, but 188 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 2: the Circuit Breaker program is demonstrating very very clearly that 189 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: we can impact the outcome of domestic violence by getting 190 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: to kids early, by finding those kids who are at risk, 191 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: and then working with their families, because if kids are 192 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,479 Speaker 2: at risk, there's something going wrong in the family situation, 193 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: and the only way we can do that is to 194 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: actually work with the children and their families to rectify 195 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 2: whatever's going on. So in the latest statistics that have 196 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 2: come out there has the only place where there's been 197 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 2: a decrease in domestic violence assaults across the terreat at 198 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 2: this moment in time is in Alice Springs. And I 199 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 2: know the evaluation process is still something that will come 200 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 2: out and it's an ongoing thing, but the Circuit Breaker 201 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 2: program has been incredibly successful in Alice Springs. The teams 202 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 2: there have done an incredible job, as has the teams 203 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: in the daw and Parmesan and Castroin regions to really 204 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 2: work with kids and their families. And we've had ninety 205 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: four referrals to other programs, including domestic family sexual violence 206 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: interventions to assist those families to break that vicious cycle. 207 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 2: So I said, I'm more than happy if there are 208 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: other areas that those on the other side think we 209 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 2: can be doing to access those kids I'd be delighted 210 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: to hear them, but so far it's crickets. 211 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: Well, Minister, we are going to have to leave it there. 212 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: I know you've got a head into Parliament. Really appreciate 213 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 1: your time this morning. The Minister for the Prevention of 214 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: Domestic Violence, Robin Carl, Thank 215 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: You, Thanks Katie, thank you.