1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: Well, welcome to How I Work, a show about the 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: technics used by the world's most successful people to get 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 1: so much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Amantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: science consultancy Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways to 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: optimize my work day. This episode is another my favorite 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: tip episode. The title is probably pretty self explanatory. It's 8 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: about my favorite tip from each of the interviews I conduct. 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: The extract I have for you today is from my 10 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: chat with Sandra Sully. Sandra is probably one of the 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: most recognized and respected faces on Australian television. She's a journalist, 12 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: a senior editor and presenter with ten Eyewitness News First 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: at five, and she's been part of the ten News 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: team since nineteen ninety. Since twenty eighteen, she's also been 15 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: the managing news editor at ten Daily, and she recently 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: launched a podcast called Short Black through Network ten, where 17 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: she chats to various women who have something interesting to say, 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: including myself. I was a guest on Sandra's show not 19 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: too long ago, so in this extract I talked to 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: Sandra about how she prepares to conduct a really great interview, 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: and then how she kind of thinks about things when 22 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: she's actually conducting the interview itself. I found this fascinating, 23 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: and I think even if you're not a professional interviewer, 24 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: there's still so much to learn here from even how 25 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: to prepare for meetings, because in a sense, all meetings 26 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: are kind of like interviews. They're just two ways. So 27 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy this extract of my chat with Sandra. 28 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about interviewing because obviously where 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: we met was at a conference where one of the 30 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: interviews you did was with Julie Bishop, which was such 31 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: an enjoyable. 32 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: Brilliant interview. It was a hard one to do, actually. 33 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about that. So what goes 34 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: into preparing for an interview like that, Well, lots. 35 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: You can't turn up and not have done your homework, 36 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 2: annoying it, Yeah, yeah, But then I think the hardest 37 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: thing is getting the context right because you can't really 38 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: You've got a sense of who the audience are, but 39 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 2: you can't always be absolutely certain. You can't always be 40 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 2: absolutely certain what it is they want from the experience. 41 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 2: So is a lot of mind games that go on 42 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: you've also got to be aware of their most current 43 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: and up to date information, who they are, what they've said, 44 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: what makes sense from a news perspective about what they're doing. 45 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: So clearly, for Julie Bishop, it was about resigning, stepping 46 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: down the criticism she'd received about some of the choices 47 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: she'd made in her professional space. She'd just been appointed 48 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: chancellor of a and you. But also there was a 49 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 2: lot of conjecture about her role as a senior woman 50 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: for other women and what she'd done for other women 51 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: in that space. Some people really want you to focus 52 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 2: on the personal, but it has to be a personal conversation, 53 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: and somehow you've got to know how to navigate the 54 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 2: boundaries you can't see. So what you generally do is 55 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: have a meet and greet beforehand, and my go to 56 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 2: space will be this isn't a gotcha moment because it 57 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 2: wasn't about that. I mean, if it was a television 58 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: moment for news, I don't owe them a pre conversation. 59 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: It's no holds barred. It is about the story of 60 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: the day. They're not turning up if they don't want 61 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: to talk about it. But this was a women's conference 62 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 2: and I wasn't there to go soft, but at the 63 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: same time, I wanted it to be interesting and I 64 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: didn't want her to not want to give. So I 65 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: think where I found what I thought would be an 66 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: interesting extraction or a direction to take her on was 67 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: why she reluctantly challenged that in my view, she hadn't 68 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: really done the numbers. Otherwise. She answered that really by 69 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: saying she hadn't really done the numbers, but she had 70 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: to do it. She believed on behalf of other women 71 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 2: or not. I don't know, but I wanted to ask 72 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: that question to let other people judge intonation, body language, conviction. 73 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 2: I wasn't sure what I made of it, but I 74 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: wanted to hear what she had to say. 75 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wanted to ask in the pre interview chat. 76 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: I imagine one of the key things there is building 77 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: that report with your subject. How are you doing that? 78 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: Well, It's look, you don't always get the chance for 79 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: a pre chat. So again you've got to be mindful 80 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: of the audience. I mean, this was a women in 81 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: business audience and they were really interested to meet and 82 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: see Julie Bishop speak. She'd just come out of office, 83 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: and I think most Australians were pretty proud of her 84 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: as our foreign minister, really proud. I wanted to acknowledge that, 85 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: so I wanted to congratulate, you know. The first thing 86 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: I'd do was say hello and acknowledge that we'd met 87 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: each other before, never spent much time together. She said, look, 88 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: what areas are you considering on, you know, having a 89 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: chat with me about And I talked us through those 90 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: and I said, are there any no go zones from 91 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 2: your perspective? I said, because I can't think of any, 92 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 2: you know, And she didn't provide any, which was terrific. 93 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 2: I also, I'm not someone I'll have a list of questions, 94 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 2: but I never remember them. 95 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, like during the actual interview, 96 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: do you have a map of where you want to go? 97 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: What's kind of going through your head? 98 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 2: Well, I'm very torn in this space because some of 99 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: the best interviewers will always say, you never ask a 100 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: question if you don't know what the answer is going 101 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 2: to be, and I think that's a good rule of thumb. 102 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: Many people say that you should have a map of 103 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: where you want it to go, but how can you 104 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: possibly know when you can't control the person you're interviewing. 105 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: I will write down scores of questions that give me 106 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 2: areas to deviate into if they take me there. But 107 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 2: I really rely on the rapport and where I feel 108 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: like it makes sense to devate too, or pivot to 109 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: or continue down a certain path. It's really more about 110 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 2: gut than anything else. I mean, it's all reliant on homework, 111 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 2: but the actual engagement is about gut and rapport for me. 112 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 2: And maybe that's where I go wrong. I don't know. 113 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting in your head, Like are 114 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: you Because something I struggle with when I'm interviewing people 115 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: is trying to stay present so that I can actually 116 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: listen to what's being said. But at the same time, 117 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: another track of my brain is going, I've got all 118 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: these areas that I'm interested in, which one makes sense 119 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: to place next? If this bit is coming to a 120 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: natural end. So, like, what's going on in your head 121 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: when you're like during that Jolly Bishop interview, Well, I. 122 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: Have those bullet points really about must discuss areas. You know, 123 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: you've got to touch on a couple of key things 124 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: when you're talking to people, Like if we did an 125 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: interview and you didn't ever mention my job in television, 126 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: people will go hello, yeah, so you've got your touch 127 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: points that you that you must cover. I think before 128 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: you approach any interview, it is wise to find some perspective, 129 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: take some time out. Yes, you do your homework, which 130 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: is really like a study phase. That's, you know, kind 131 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: of where you where you smash it and cram, and 132 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: then you need to go for a walk or go 133 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: for a run or switch off so you get some 134 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: perspective from what someone else may want to see or 135 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 2: glean from that experience or that conversation. So you find 136 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: some tangents that are comfortable or unique or make sense 137 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 2: to the context within which you're talking. Someone does that. 138 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: Make it makes perfect sense, And I feel like that 139 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: is something that I can learn from when I'm doing interviews. 140 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: I like that a lot. Yeah, I mean, you do 141 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 2: interviews a lot, but I think and I love your podcast. 142 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: I'm a huge fan. I tell I do a bit 143 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: of mentoring with the executive assistants, and I will say 144 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 2: to them that it's a really good one because they 145 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: need to understand where their CEO's heads are, because they're 146 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: already in the next phase of business and you need 147 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: to understand where the heads are and have a sense 148 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 2: of what the roadmap looks like, and so I'm always 149 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: recommending podcasts where they can grow as an individual, grow 150 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 2: as an EA, and also be a good help for 151 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: their boss. Every good interview, I think is about discovering something. 152 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: I think it's all about the art of discovery, and 153 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: I think if you try to find something someone else 154 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: doesn't know or hasn't considered, then it makes your conversation 155 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: unique and special. 156 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: I love that it's so funny. It reminds me of 157 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:01,599 Speaker 1: an It's just a blog post I was reading the 158 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: other day, I think by Derek Sivers, and he said 159 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: the best way to teach someone something is to surprise them, 160 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: because if they're surprised, it will stick, and if they're not, 161 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: it won't. And that reminds me of that. 162 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: Hello there, it's me. 163 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you enjoyed it, 164 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: why not share it with someone who you think might 165 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: be interested in how Sandra conducts her interviews. Just use 166 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: a little share icon wherever you listen to your podcast, 167 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: and if you're enjoying how I work, you might want 168 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: to leave a review, give some feedback. I absolutely love 169 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: getting feedback from listeners, so thank you so much if 170 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: you've done that, or if you plan to do that today. 171 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: So that's it for today's episode and I will see 172 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: you next time.