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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson, the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com dot AU. Today on the Happy Families Podcast,

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Speaker 2: a conversation about a brand new book that's just been

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Speaker 2: published called Technologies Child Digital Media's role in the ages

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Speaker 2: and stages of growing up.

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Speaker 1: The author is Katie Davis.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you a bit about Katie, and

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Speaker 2: then we're going to have a really important conversation for

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Speaker 2: any parent of any child whoever uses technology, which would

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Speaker 2: be all of them. Katie Davis is an associate professor

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Speaker 2: at the University of Washington Information School, where she's a

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Speaker 2: founding member and co director of the UW Digital Youth Lab.

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Speaker 2: She's also the co author of the app Generation, How

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Speaker 2: Today's youth Navigate identity, intimacy, imagination in a digital World

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Speaker 2: with one of the all time gurus of psychology, a

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Speaker 2: guy who has done more about intelligence in psychology than

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Speaker 2: maybe anybody, Howard Gardner, and writers in the Secret Garden

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Speaker 2: fan Fiction, Youth and New Forms of Mentoring, which she

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Speaker 2: wrote with Cecilia aragon I. Might also mention that The

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Speaker 2: book Technologies Child, which is the one we're going to

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Speaker 2: be talking about today by Katie Davis, also has some

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Speaker 2: pretty big what's the word like, there's some pretty big

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Speaker 2: names behind this book. Adam Grant has just named this

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Speaker 2: I Must read in his next Big Idea Club And

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Speaker 2: if you get an endorsement from Adam Grant. I mean, Katie,

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Speaker 2: did you just about cry when Adam Grant said you

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Speaker 2: need to read this book?

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Speaker 3: I was pretty excited. I have to say. Yes.

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Speaker 2: So you're a mom to one, You've got a little guy.

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Speaker 2: He is six years old.

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Speaker 3: He is, Yeah, Oliver.

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Speaker 2: The first question I have to ask before we even

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Speaker 2: talk about your book is how do you go with

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Speaker 2: Oliver and technology?

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Speaker 1: Six years old?

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that he wants to be I don't know,

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Speaker 2: watching cartoons. He wants to play Pokemon or.

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Speaker 1: Something like is he Pokemon?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Is he at you all the time to be on

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Speaker 1: his screen?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, we go in and out. So sometimes

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Speaker 3: he's really really pushing to get on the screen and

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Speaker 3: watch something. Right now, it is certainly Pokemon. But then

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Speaker 3: other times he's pretty relaxed and more interested in doing

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Speaker 3: things offline. It's hard to project, really, I think but

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Speaker 3: that's what I have learned as a parent, is that

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Speaker 3: children are often hard to predict.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're They're not quite the same as I

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Speaker 2: don't know chemicals in a chemistry.

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Speaker 1: Experiment, are they?

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Speaker 3: This is no exactly A.

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Speaker 1: Little bit more random.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I want to dive into some of the things

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Speaker 2: that you've written about in this book. I showed you

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Speaker 2: my copy of your book, which has I was going

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Speaker 2: to say thousands of pages doggied, but it's not a

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Speaker 2: It's only two hundred and fifty pages long, but I've

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Speaker 2: doggied almost every single page. Can we just talk about

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Speaker 2: kids under the age of about well, let's start with

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Speaker 2: our toddler is our infants? Now told children under about

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Speaker 2: the age of three. When parents are giving their children screens.

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Speaker 2: I love how human you are in the book and

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Speaker 2: saying sometimes you just have to because like you need

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Speaker 2: a break, and it's okay for the kids to have

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Speaker 2: some screens, But what are the risks that we are

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Speaker 2: up against with children under the age of three? And

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Speaker 2: they use all of screens, whether it's for TV or

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Speaker 2: whether they're using apps.

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Speaker 3: Right, So there are a number of things and as

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Speaker 3: you mentioned, sometimes we need to give us ourselves a break.

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Speaker 3: So I first want to preface what I'm about to

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Speaker 3: say by urging parents to give themselves a break and

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Speaker 3: not be too hard on themselves, because that's one thing

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Speaker 3: that I talk about in this book is that there's

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Speaker 3: just so much guilt and pressure associated with being a

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Speaker 3: parent these days, and not just related to technology, but

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Speaker 3: pretty much every aspect of your child's development. You're expected

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Speaker 3: to set them up on the road to success. And

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Speaker 3: so I want to just acknowledge that there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of pressure. Sure, it's very much there when it comes

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Speaker 3: to technology, and in fact, I talk about this idea

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Speaker 3: in the book that I call the Good Enough Digital Parent,

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Speaker 3: where the idea is that we are trying to do

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Speaker 3: our best, of course, to steer our children towards positive,

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Speaker 3: developmentally supportive technology experiences. But we're not going to be

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Speaker 3: perfect at this all the time, and we're going to

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Speaker 3: make mistakes. The key is that we are going to

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Speaker 3: be keen observers of how our children are reacting as

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Speaker 3: they're engaging with technology, and also after they've engaged with

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Speaker 3: the technology, and depending on how they act, we will

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Speaker 3: pivot and adjust accordingly, and you know, try and steer

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Speaker 3: them towards the best possible experiences. But when it comes

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Speaker 3: to children, the really young children, generally speaking, I would

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Speaker 3: say it's fine, you know, occasionally to introduce your child

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Speaker 3: to an app that is geared towards little kids, or

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Speaker 3: perhaps watching a few TV shows, But the thing to

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Speaker 3: be on the lookout for is noticing whether or not

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Speaker 3: you're reaching for the tablet or the phone every single

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Speaker 3: time you want to break or every single time your

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Speaker 3: child is getting fussy, because if that starts to be

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Speaker 3: the default move for you, that's not going to be

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Speaker 3: good for your child or for you, because that's not

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Speaker 3: going to help you support your child in managing their

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Speaker 3: own emotions and learning how to regulate themselves. If they

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Speaker 3: always know that you're going to put a screen in

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Speaker 3: front of them to soothe them, they're not going to

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Speaker 3: develop that emotion regulation and the resilience that is so

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Speaker 3: important during those early years.

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Speaker 2: This is a fascinating path that I want to just

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Speaker 2: try a few more steps down, the relationship between emotion

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Speaker 2: regulation and behavioral regulation and screen use. So I hear

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Speaker 2: parents say this all the time. When my children are

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Speaker 2: in front of a screen, they are so regulated like

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Speaker 2: the screen does all of this regulation for them. They're calm,

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Speaker 2: they're willing to eat their food, they're willing to get

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Speaker 2: into their school uniforms, they're willing to do almost anything

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Speaker 2: that I ask them to do. And yet when we

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Speaker 2: turn off the screen, it's like they become like hashtag

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Speaker 2: demon child.

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Speaker 1: They just turn into this psycho child.

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Speaker 2: And I wonder if you can talk about that emotional

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Speaker 2: and behavioral regulation issue. And I guess this extends well

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Speaker 2: beyond the toddally years. Now, why is it the TV

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Speaker 2: is such an extraordinary regulator and why does that regulation

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Speaker 2: dissipate so fast once the screen is off?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? So, first of all, it's important to recognize that

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Speaker 3: in those early years each one, two, and three, one

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Speaker 3: of the key developmental tasks for kids that age is

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Speaker 3: to develop the ability to regulate their emotions, to regulate

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Speaker 3: their behavior. In fact, so these constellations of skills that

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Speaker 3: are called executive function, and it's probably the most important

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Speaker 3: thing that they're developing, aside from language. And so when

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Speaker 3: we put our kids in front of a TV, if

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Speaker 3: we think about what sort of attention and now attention

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Speaker 3: is really wrapped up in executive function and self regulation.

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Speaker 3: It's really all about being able to manage your own attention.

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Speaker 3: But when you're looking at a screen, the kind of

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Speaker 3: attention that you're engaging in is what we call bottom

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Speaker 3: up processes of attention. So you're kind of being led

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Speaker 3: by the TV. You're not really having to do any

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Speaker 3: sort of work. So, for your listeners who are thinking

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Speaker 3: about an analogy for their experiences, if you think about

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Speaker 3: when you're just scrolling through your social media feed, you're

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Speaker 3: really not doing much of anything. You're not putting a

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Speaker 3: lot of attention in it. You're just letting yourself be

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Speaker 3: taken from one post to another. However, if you're composing

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Speaker 3: a cover letter for a job or an application for something,

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Speaker 3: that's when you're using top down processes of attention. So

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Speaker 3: you're really very much focused and you're controlling your attention.

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Speaker 3: You're putting a lot of thought into it. And that's

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Speaker 3: the kind of attention that doesn't usually get engaged when

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Speaker 3: you're watching TV. And so when when you notice that

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Speaker 3: your child is sort of looking like a zombie in

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Speaker 3: front of the screen, that's because they're not really putting

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Speaker 3: much effort into their attention. It's being co opted in

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Speaker 3: a way by the TV screen. But that's not to

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Speaker 3: say that every single digital experience uses that kind of attention.

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Speaker 3: There are certainly more interactive forms of digital experiences that

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Speaker 3: require kids to engage in more of those effortful forms

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Speaker 3: of attention, those top down processes. So some games, when

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Speaker 3: you get into slightly older kids, schemes like Minecraft or Roadblocks,

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Speaker 3: those are good examples of the types of digital experiences

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Speaker 3: that require a different kind of attention that is more effortful,

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Speaker 3: that might be a little bit more supportive of executive

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Speaker 3: function skills.

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Speaker 2: Okabe, there are a couple of different tangents that I

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Speaker 2: want to go on as a result of what you've

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Speaker 2: just said here, there's no way I'm going to get

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Speaker 2: to the list of the bottom of my list of

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Speaker 2: questions today. You've talked about educational apps. You highlight in

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Speaker 2: Technology's Child that for the most part, educational apps are

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Speaker 2: not particularly educational. Would you mind just fortunately, yeah, can

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Speaker 2: you step through what the data shows us around that

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Speaker 2: and the false promises that are made by these app

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Speaker 2: developers who are really I guess what are they doing.

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Speaker 2: They're trying to capitalize on our best intentions to give

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Speaker 2: our children a head start and also give ourselves a

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Speaker 2: break while using a screen. What's the real story behind

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Speaker 2: educational apps?

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Speaker 3: Well, the first story to keep in mind is that

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Speaker 3: the vast majority of these apps have zero research behind them.

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Speaker 3: So they're making a lot of claims about being educational

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Speaker 3: without any sort of support or evidence that I would

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Speaker 3: as a researcher consider rigorous. And so maybe they've tested

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Speaker 3: out with a few kids or families, but not really

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Speaker 3: rigorous peer reviewed research. So that's the first thing. Just

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Speaker 3: beware of the claims that they're making. And then I

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Speaker 3: think beyond that, it's really something that parents need to

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Speaker 3: try out on a case by case basis, look at

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Speaker 3: the app, see how their children are engaging with it,

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Speaker 3: and again, what sort of attention is this app encouraging?

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Speaker 3: Is it just sort of leading them down one path

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Speaker 3: without really thinking, or is it actually getting them to think. So,

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Speaker 3: for young kids, there are a lot of apps that

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Speaker 3: are focused on literacy development or numeracy development, and some

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Speaker 3: of those can be quite good, provided they're not including

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Speaker 3: all too many bells and whistles. So you have to

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Speaker 3: keep in mind that for little kids, they have limited

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Speaker 3: information processing abilities, so they're still developing those tools and

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Speaker 3: the amount of information that's coming at them, if it's

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Speaker 3: too much, if there's too many songs, or if there's

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Speaker 3: too many visuals on the screen that might overwhelm their

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Speaker 3: information processing capacity. So in fact, you want to look

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Speaker 3: for apps that are pretty minimal and that don't have

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Speaker 3: a lot of bells and whistles, that they're not really busy,

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Speaker 3: because the busier they are, the more overwhelming it's going

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Speaker 3: to be for your child, and the more taxing, and

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Speaker 3: they're probably less likely to get out of it the

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Speaker 3: core educational objective. So whether that's to count or learning

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Speaker 3: your ABC's, if there's a lot of other characters, you know,

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Speaker 3: getting really excited and all these different things going on,

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Speaker 3: that should be a warning sign that maybe it's a

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Speaker 3: little too much for your child.

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Speaker 2: When I look at the apps that my children want

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Speaker 2: to play, they tend to not be oriented towards anything

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Speaker 2: other than time wasting. And I guess I have my

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Speaker 2: own theories about this, and I suspect that yours and

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Speaker 2: mind will. I've lap quite a lot here, but I'd

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Speaker 2: love to get your perspective on this. Why are children

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Speaker 2: so drawn in by screens? What is it about that

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Speaker 2: makes screens so compelling?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's kind of what draws us in these screens,

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Speaker 3: and the importantly, the applications that are running on the

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Speaker 3: screens have been specifically designed with psychological theories that are

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Speaker 3: known to hold and keep our attention. And so children

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Speaker 3: are very susceptible to having their attention co opt in

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Speaker 3: a way when they're confronted with very compelling content. And

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Speaker 3: the developers of these different apps and TV shows, they

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Speaker 3: know exactly what they're doing. They kind of have the

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Speaker 3: formula down path to hold our attention, our attention as adults,

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Speaker 3: but also our children's attention, and that's kind of the

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Speaker 3: business model. The more they can hold our attention, the

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Speaker 3: better their bottom line does. And so that, yeah, it

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Speaker 3: really can sometimes go against what's best for a child's development.

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Speaker 3: And so in the book, I really encourage parents to

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Speaker 3: when they're looking at their children interacting with a particular

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Speaker 3: digital device or application and they're trying to figure out

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Speaker 3: is this good for my child? Is it not? But

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Speaker 3: how do I even know? There are two questions that

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Speaker 3: I encourage parents to ask themselves, And these are questions

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Speaker 3: that I ask myself every day when I'm considering what

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Speaker 3: sort of technology is okay for Oliver to have? For

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Speaker 3: that day and for how long. I ask myself first,

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Speaker 3: is this self directed? And so by self directed, I

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Speaker 3: mean experiences where your child is really in the driver's seat.

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Speaker 3: The agency is with your child, it's not with the technology.

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Speaker 3: And so going back to our conversation about having attention

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Speaker 3: being co opted, when that happens, your child is no

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Speaker 3: longer in the driver's seat of their digital interaction. So

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Speaker 3: you really want to be thinking about to what extent

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Speaker 3: is my child kind of there and in control, Recognizing

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Speaker 3: not all experiences are going to allow children to be

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Speaker 3: equally in control of their digital experiences. So, but you

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Speaker 3: do want to at least try as much as possible

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Speaker 3: to steer them towards experiences that they're really in the

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Speaker 3: driver's seat. The second question that I'm asking myself every

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Speaker 3: day is is this experienced community supported? And by that,

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Speaker 3: I mean who's are involved either during the experience or

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Speaker 3: surrounding the experience that can actually support my child. So

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Speaker 3: with little kids, this tends to be parents or sometimes

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Speaker 3: older siblings who are on hand to help the child

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Speaker 3: interact with a particular app or device, maybe engage with them.

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Speaker 3: So joint media engagement is actually been shown to be

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Speaker 3: really supportive of kids development, so their literacy development, their

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Speaker 3: numeracy development, and so on. So thinking about what opportunities

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Speaker 3: does this digital experience provide in terms of involving other people.

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Speaker 3: When you get into older kids and they're starting to

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Speaker 3: participate in online communities, sometimes the support can actually come

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Speaker 3: from within the platform, where there's an actual community online

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Speaker 3: that can support kids and help them have an enriching

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Speaker 3: experience online. The opposite is also true. Sometimes you can

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Speaker 3: have an experience that is actually not very community supportive.

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Speaker 3: For instance, if your child is experiencing bullying online, that's

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Speaker 3: sort of the opposite of community support. So it's really

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Speaker 3: those two questions that I'm asking myself every day as

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Speaker 3: a parent. Is this self directed? Is it community supported?

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Speaker 3: Recognizing that not everything is going to be amazingly great

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Speaker 3: when it comes to those two questions, but I'm at

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Speaker 3: least striving for making them as good as possible.

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Speaker 2: Katie, when you describe that, I think about my Facebook use.

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Speaker 2: What I've found is that I have no sense of agency.

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Speaker 2: Once I get into Facebook. It takes away my capacity

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Speaker 2: to choose. And so what I've done with Facebook, I've

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Speaker 2: had my wife put a screen time password with a

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Speaker 2: screen limit of fifteen minutes per day on that particular app,

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Speaker 2: I don't like being on there. I don't feel good

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Speaker 2: when I'm on there, and I'm not using it for

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Speaker 2: high quality interactions. I'm just scrolling through the garbage that

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Speaker 2: it feeds me. And yes, the garbage that it feeds

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Speaker 2: me is all the stuff that I'm interested in, like

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Speaker 2: the surfing and the bike riding and all the other

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Speaker 2: stuff that I'm really passionate about in my life. But

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Speaker 2: it's such unproductive time and I never get off a

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Speaker 2: fifteen minute Facebook session. I think, oh, that was so good.

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Speaker 2: I feel so fulfilled now. And I guess when I

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Speaker 2: hear you describe those two things, the importance of agency

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Speaker 2: or autonomy, the self direction, and also the level of

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Speaker 2: community support, those two things are distinctly lacking in my

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Speaker 2: social media use. Ironically, it's called social media, and yet

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Speaker 2: I'm not particularly using it in a very social way.

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Speaker 2: And I can see the value, I can see the

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Speaker 2: wisdom in what you've shared. Our time is up already.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we've barely started. I feel like we've

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Speaker 2: talked about two of the things that are in my

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Speaker 2: notes that I want to talk about. Do you think

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Speaker 2: that we could continue this conversation tomorrow on.

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Speaker 3: The podcast, Absolutely, I would love to.

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Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Katie Davis, an associate professor at the

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Speaker 2: University of Washington, about her book, recommended highly by Adam

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Speaker 2: Grant's Next Big Idea Club as a must read. The

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Speaker 2: book is called Technologies Child, Digital Media's role in the

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Speaker 2: Ages and Stages of growing Up. Tomorrow, when we return,

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Speaker 2: we're going to continue this conversation by diving into some

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Speaker 2: of the technology challenges that we have with.

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Speaker 1: Bigger kids and our teens.

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Speaker 2: It's The Happy Family's podcast, produced by Justin Roland from

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 2: For more information about Technology's Child, you can see the

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Speaker 2: show notes and also check out Katie's website katiedavisresearch dot com.

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Speaker 2: If you go there and sign up for Katie's newsletter,

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Speaker 2: she'll be able to send you a weekly tidbit of

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Speaker 2: research and ideas for how you can manage tech better

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Speaker 2: in your home with your kids. That's Katie Davisresearch dot com.

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Speaker 1: Sign up for her newsletter, then