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Speaker 1: And I'm really anti that voice will be boys.

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Speaker 2: He really does stereotype type of behavior that is not okay.

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Speaker 3: Boys will be boys. That is the topic of our

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Speaker 3: conversation today based on what you would have seen on

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Speaker 3: Monday night in episode for the limited season finale of

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Speaker 3: Parental Guidance on nine. You can catch up on nine now.

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Speaker 3: Streaming is still available for all three seasons. Oh my goodness,

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Speaker 3: do we have some stuff to talk about today? Could

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Speaker 3: Welcome to The Happy Family's podcast Real Parenting Solutions. Every

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Speaker 3: day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast, We are justin

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Speaker 3: and Kylie Colson. Kylie, your jaw was on the floor,

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Speaker 3: like you just kept on looking at me and gripping

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Speaker 3: my knee and going, oh my goodness, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 3: every time somebody would say something gripping, compelling, fascinating, television,

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Speaker 3: great conversations on Monday night.

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Speaker 2: The frustration for me is that we're watching the edited version.

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Speaker 4: I actually wanted to be in the room, like, whoa.

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Speaker 3: It was so much fun. So let's let's let's set

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Speaker 3: this up. For those of you who are either overseas

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Speaker 3: listening to the pod or you just haven't been able

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Speaker 3: to get to it to watch it. Yet the challenge was, well,

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Speaker 3: let me play the audio and we'll share what the

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Speaker 3: challenge was.

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Speaker 1: Kids, we got a message, how do you really parent?

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Speaker 5: To find out give your children a chance to act

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Speaker 5: as parents.

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Speaker 1: The new baby is waiting. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm sure.

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Speaker 6: How exciting.

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Speaker 3: So yesterday we talked about three of the four families,

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Speaker 3: but today it's the five boys, the life school parent family.

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Speaker 5: Ah, all right, he's grabbing.

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Speaker 4: Come on you, my moms and dads.

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Speaker 1: It's the world chambien Ship baby thrower.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk to our panel.

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Speaker 1: Parents.

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Speaker 6: Your eldest is going to make a great father one day.

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Speaker 6: Obviously he remembers having the little siblings, and then you know,

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Speaker 6: they're playing, they're working around, having fun. The boys were boys.

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Speaker 2: We need to have a conversation about that comment. Boys

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Speaker 2: will be boys. That's the whole purpose to yes, But

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to highlight first that I think it's

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Speaker 2: a very unfair reflection of who these boys are and

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Speaker 2: what they are as they played with this doll. Number one,

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Speaker 2: they're not versed with playing with dolls in general. This

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Speaker 2: is a very unique situation for them. But secondly, I

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Speaker 2: can almost certainly guarantee you that if a baby, a

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Speaker 2: real life baby, was placed in their arms, we would

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Speaker 2: see an entirely different side of them.

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Speaker 3: I want to push even further. I would say they

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Speaker 3: would be nurturing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I would say that they would pick up that baby

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Speaker 3: and they would nurse it and cuddle it, and.

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Speaker 2: They would be calm and they would be So what

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Speaker 2: we saw on TV was great TV, yes, but I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's a real reflection of who these boys are.

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Speaker 3: I can vouch just for myself. I have literally footy

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Speaker 3: pasts our children's dolls around the living room when we've

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Speaker 3: had other men in the room, Hey catch and just

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Speaker 3: throwing the doll across the room. But here's the main

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Speaker 3: thing that I want to emphasize on what you've just said.

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Speaker 3: It's not about how they played doll. It's about the

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Speaker 3: conversation that it sparks. Yeah, and didn't it spark a conversation?

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Speaker 6: And I'm really anti that boys will be boys?

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Speaker 2: Okay. It really does stereotype type of behavior.

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Speaker 1: That is not okay.

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Speaker 5: Boys aren't naturally nurturing, you know, and they showed that there.

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Speaker 6: You know, they can be if a man has to

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Speaker 6: change an happy or cook and clean doesn't make this

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Speaker 6: of a man.

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Speaker 5: The first six to twelve months of the baby's life,

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Speaker 5: especially if you're naturally nursing, the father essentially not exists.

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Speaker 5: All it cares for is mum.

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Speaker 3: So the boys will be boys. Conversation is coming, but

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Speaker 3: first we need to talk about this.

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Speaker 2: I want to take on this idea that babies only

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Speaker 2: want their mums. This was actually probably a bit of

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Speaker 2: a fallacy that you lived into in our first few

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Speaker 2: years of marriage. But there is so much scope for

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Speaker 2: dads to get involved. If mum is breastfeeding, it makes

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Speaker 2: it a little bit trickier because they're nurturing takes place

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Speaker 2: in that space. But outside of that, a baby needs

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Speaker 2: their nappies change, a baby needs a bath, a baby

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Speaker 2: needs to be burped, a baby needs to be soothed

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Speaker 2: and comforted. If there's opportunities for bottle feeding, dads can

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Speaker 2: get involved with the bottle feeding. They can help put

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Speaker 2: the baby to sleep, they can do tummy time supervision,

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Speaker 2: they can read and sing to them. Like there is

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Speaker 2: so much scope for dads to get involved without having

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Speaker 2: to breastfeed a baby.

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Speaker 3: They can push the baby around the neighborhood in the pram.

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Speaker 2: Which you were really good at, you were a really

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Speaker 2: good at. But then there's also getting up to the

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Speaker 2: baby at night. You know, even if mum is breastfeeding,

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Speaker 2: they can get up in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 2: pick the baby up so that or allow mum to

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Speaker 2: feed it and then do the rest. But there is

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Speaker 2: so much in just that. But they can also take

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Speaker 2: care of, you know, the meals. They can help with

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Speaker 2: the chores around the house. They can manage your visitors

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Speaker 2: in those early weeks dealing with the changes that take

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Speaker 2: place in your lifestyle, and especially for a mum, having

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Speaker 2: someone else manage all of that, that's huge. They can

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Speaker 2: encourage mum to rest, they can do what's needful so

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Speaker 2: that she gets what she needs in order to be

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Speaker 2: able to be at her best.

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Speaker 3: They can look after the big kids if there are

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Speaker 3: older kids.

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Speaker 2: They can attend appointments. They can help with the breastfeeding

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Speaker 2: set up like they you know, when when you go

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Speaker 2: out walking, they can push the pram or they can

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Speaker 2: carry the baby like it.

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Speaker 3: Just so, Joshua was wrong, is what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: Highly entirely. Let me just pick that can do the laundry,

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Speaker 2: let me pick up I can take the photos.

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Speaker 3: There are two things that I say here. First of all,

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Speaker 3: in the early days of our marriage and with our

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Speaker 3: first couple of kids, I was a radio announcer. I

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Speaker 3: always had to be on, Like, if you're showing up

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Speaker 3: on the radio, you've got to be able to do

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Speaker 3: the job and be sparky, right.

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Speaker 6: Like.

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Speaker 3: It's a bit like being a professional athlete. I can't

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Speaker 3: believe I've just compared radio anounces to professional athletes, but

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Speaker 3: I can't.

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Speaker 2: Believe to do that anyway.

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Speaker 3: It's a performance kind of thing. You've got to be

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Speaker 3: able to be there and do it well.

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Speaker 2: Well, you did live into that excuse.

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Speaker 3: I did, that's right, But I did many of the

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Speaker 3: things that you've highlighted there as well. But I definitely

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Speaker 3: sort of looked at it and said, no, I've got

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Speaker 3: to be able to I've got to be able to

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Speaker 3: perform during the day, so I need my sleep. You're

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Speaker 3: going to have to do the nighttime shift.

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Speaker 2: But I think I think what it came down to, though, essentially,

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Speaker 2: is number one. I lived into that role of nurturer

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Speaker 2: deeply and cherished that. But for you, there was a

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Speaker 2: level of feeling incompetent totally, and I didn't recognize that

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Speaker 2: as a young mum and didn't recognize the part I

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Speaker 2: could play in nurturing your ability to develop and grow

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Speaker 2: as a dad.

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Speaker 3: That's a great insight and so and I was much

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Speaker 3: more involved even at night times as we had children four,

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Speaker 3: five and six.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it comes down to a level of competence.

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Speaker 3: Competence.

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Speaker 2: It had zero competence in the beginning, and therefore you

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Speaker 2: were fearful. Let's put it there. You were fearful.

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Speaker 3: Something important to highlight as well, though when Josh said

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Speaker 3: my child doesn't want me, that as someone's right in

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Speaker 3: saying how much time you're spending with the child. There

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Speaker 3: is that element of it. But there is this thing

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Speaker 3: called an attachment hierarchy, and children do have usually mum

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Speaker 3: at the top of that hierarchy, and quite often they

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Speaker 3: will push that away, especially from about nine to twelve months.

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Speaker 3: That's when it kicks in and it can carry on

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Speaker 3: for a couple of years. That's not an excuse for

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Speaker 3: dads to step out. In fact, if anything, is an

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Speaker 3: excuse for dads to take opportunities when the baby's not

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Speaker 3: being resist and build the relationship. We need to move

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Speaker 3: on because there's so much to talk about. Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: after the break we are going to talk about this.

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Speaker 5: I think we should be very careful not to feminize

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Speaker 5: our males too much in society.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I guess what's rubbing me the wrong way?

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Speaker 7: Your thoughts are really this is what goes on fair

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Speaker 7: enough in your world around the people that you choose

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Speaker 7: to hang around. That might happen, but that's not the

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Speaker 7: whole world. Also, I do a lot of men in

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Speaker 7: this society these days as well are.

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Speaker 1: Not great men. I think we need to change that, Kylie.

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Speaker 3: The debate about gender stereotypes kicked off, and this was

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Speaker 3: the conversation that had everybody riveted to the screen like

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Speaker 3: we had another watch party, and everybody was just like, whoa, we've.

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Speaker 2: Been light on facials in this particular season. Holy smokes,

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Speaker 2: they all came out on Monday night.

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Speaker 3: Let's replay what Courtney said our pro tech mum.

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Speaker 7: I do a lot of men in this society these

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Speaker 7: days as well are not great men.

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Speaker 1: I think we need to change that.

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Speaker 5: I think we should be very careful not to feminize

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Speaker 5: our males too much in society.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, Kylie, let's talk about here about gender roles,

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Speaker 3: about kids about healthy concepts of masculinity. Where do you

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Speaker 3: want to start?

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Speaker 2: I actually want to ask you a question.

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Speaker 3: I love it when you ask me questions.

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Speaker 2: Go This conversation was massive. I can only imagine what

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Speaker 2: the long take would have given us if we have

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Speaker 2: been able to see everything that you guys talked about

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Speaker 2: in the studio. But what is the world telling our

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Speaker 2: young boys and girls about their genders that we need

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Speaker 2: to be aware of? Because this conversation that you had

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Speaker 2: in that room was intense.

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Speaker 3: So really speaking, I think most people are pretty relaxed

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Speaker 3: about girls growing up and making whatever decisions they want.

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Speaker 3: So there was that line that Amy, the active parent mum, said.

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Speaker 4: I don't think that you should have gender roles even

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Speaker 4: from a young age. The boys. My girls play with

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Speaker 4: trucks just as much as my boys will play with

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Speaker 4: dress gender and my boy's favorite carlor. If you'd ask

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Speaker 4: them right now, I'd be pink.

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Speaker 3: Most people are pretty relaxed about their daughters wanting to

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Speaker 3: be anything, including what have been traditionally male oriented roles

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Speaker 3: like plumbers and electricians and so on. Pretty rare that

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Speaker 3: you get a female plumber, by the way, about one

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Speaker 3: in two hundred and fifty. For every two hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty men who are plumbers will be one woman. Electricians,

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Speaker 3: it's about one percent of electricians a female. But we

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Speaker 3: see more and more females. In fact, there are more

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Speaker 3: females doing a whole lot of professional roles now that

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Speaker 3: will want the domain of men.

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Speaker 2: So I would have to believe that the feminist movement

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Speaker 2: has impacted that, yeah, in a huge way.

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Speaker 3: And I would say for good, like this.

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Speaker 2: Idea that girls can be anything that they want to do,

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Speaker 2: and they can do yeah power.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, go girls, spice, girls, sporty spice. I've forgotten

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Speaker 3: the other one's theory, spice. Whoever. Like let's talk about

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Speaker 3: the boys, though, there was a question what about your

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Speaker 3: boy who wants to wear pink? Or what about if

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Speaker 3: your boy wants to wear a skirt. Here's what I'll say.

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Speaker 3: I'm a man who's very happy to wear a pink shirt.

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Speaker 3: I think I look really good in pink. I'm not

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Speaker 3: worried about that. As a man who is confident in

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Speaker 3: my masculinity and in my identity, I'm comfortable with who

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Speaker 3: I am. But boys police one another's behavior, and they

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Speaker 3: do it very very strongly, no matter how enlightened you

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Speaker 3: might be as a parent. No matter how much you

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Speaker 3: might tell boys that they can do anything and be anything.

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Speaker 3: In the playground and online, boys are policed in a

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Speaker 3: way that girls are not. So I've been writing my

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Speaker 3: book about boys. We'll put a link into the show

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Speaker 3: notes so that if you'd like to sign up for

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Speaker 3: when it's available, we can give you the first lot

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Speaker 3: of news. But as I'm writing this book, what I

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Speaker 3: found was this, When girls decide that they want to

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Speaker 3: go play with the boys, the boys think that's pretty weird,

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Speaker 3: but the girls are fine with it, like, no girls

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Speaker 3: are going, how can we playing with the boys? The

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Speaker 3: girls are just like, yeah, okay, play with who you want.

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Speaker 3: And when a boy wants to go and hang out

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Speaker 3: with the girls, the girls are fine with it. The

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Speaker 3: guy's like, yeah, you can hang out with us, that's fine,

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Speaker 3: Like it doesn't bother them at all. But when a

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Speaker 3: boy leaves his mates and goes to hang out with

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Speaker 3: the girls, the boys start to call him names. The

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Speaker 3: boys call him a simp, or they call him a

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Speaker 3: war so they call him they call him gay. They like,

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Speaker 3: the name calling starts, and the policing happens. Boy wearing pink.

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Speaker 3: I don't know where that's up to anymore. I don't

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Speaker 3: think it's as big a deal as it once was.

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Speaker 3: A boy wearing a skirt. It's just not gonna happen.

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Speaker 3: I know that everyone on the TV show, well not everyone,

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Speaker 3: but several people on the show are being quite enlightened.

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Speaker 3: And we'll talk about this more tomorrow. But when I

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Speaker 3: talk to the boys, when I talk to parents, when

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Speaker 3: I talk to school teachers, it just doesn't happen. And

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Speaker 3: when somebody chooses to do it, it's considered weird. That's

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Speaker 3: why it makes the papers. When Richard Wilkins from The

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Speaker 3: Today showed the Entertainment Reporter when his son Christian wears

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Speaker 3: a skirt on the red carpet, or when one of

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Speaker 3: the One Direction boys wears a skirt to a premiere

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Speaker 3: of something or other, it makes the news because it's

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Speaker 3: stepping outside the gender roles. No one cares about a

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Speaker 3: woman wearing pants, but everyone does care about a man

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Speaker 3: wearing a skirt unless he's Scottish. You know what's worn

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Speaker 3: under a scotsmanth kilt.

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Speaker 2: Please don't go there.

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Speaker 3: Nothing. Everything is in perfect working order. That's okay. I'll

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Speaker 3: move on.

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Speaker 2: There was definitely division in the room around what it

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Speaker 2: means to be a healthy masculine man. Yeah, yeah, yeah

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Speaker 2: on the show. Can you kind of just round it

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Speaker 2: out for us?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm giving away everything that my book

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Speaker 3: is about. But my book is about three things, and

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Speaker 3: they're all the same thing. It's just saying it three

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Speaker 3: different ways. First of all, it's about teaching our boys

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Speaker 3: that they need to show up and be a bonus

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Speaker 3: in the lives of the people around them. That they

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Speaker 3: need to provide surplus value. That's what Richard Reeves, the

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Speaker 3: author of Boys and Men and the president of the

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Speaker 3: American Institute for Boys and Men, describes. This guy is

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Speaker 3: a screaming left wing liberal. He is a mega feminist.

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Speaker 3: But he's created the Institute for Boys and Men because

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Speaker 3: boys and men are struggling. Males are struggling in our

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Speaker 3: community in a way that they never had before, and

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Speaker 3: they're just falling so far behind the girls.

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Speaker 2: So when I was in high school, the acronym SNAG.

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Speaker 3: Was a sensitive new age guys.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And as a girl, it was such a positive

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Speaker 2: to have a male who was in touch enough with

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Speaker 2: his feelings that he could be open and vulnerable and

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Speaker 2: discuss those feelings with you like that was huge.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's part of where the mannosphere

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Speaker 3: impacts people in comments like Josh's, I think.

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Speaker 5: We should be very careful not to feminize our males

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Speaker 5: too much in society.

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Speaker 3: Oh, a lot of people feel like it is weak

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Speaker 3: to speak. There's bumper stickers everywhere. It ain't weak to speak, right,

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Speaker 3: But I'm not actually pushing for our boys to be

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Speaker 3: soft spoken and be sensitive new age guys. If that

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Speaker 3: doesn't resonate for them, I'm pushing for them too. And

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Speaker 3: this is the third of my three things. Be a

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Speaker 3: bonus ad surplus value, and help the people around you

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Speaker 3: to feel safer and stronger.

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Speaker 2: So, as a female, when I have a male in

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Speaker 2: my mitt who is comfortable enough to connect with me

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Speaker 2: on that level, I feel safe and secure.

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Speaker 3: Great. Yeah. And therefore it's being able to read the

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Speaker 3: room and to be considerate of others, and to be

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Speaker 3: able to share in a way that allows others to

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Speaker 3: feel safe and secure that you're trustworthy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm not expecting them to be a female. I'm

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Speaker 2: not expecting them to hide the robust natures that they

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Speaker 2: may have. It, but it makes a huge difference when

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Speaker 2: I also don't have to hide my emotional side, for instance,

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Speaker 2: because he can't cope with the emotions.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of eye rolls in the room. There

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Speaker 3: was a lot of big emotion when the comment boys

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Speaker 3: will be boys was trodden out. Boys will be boys

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Speaker 3: is never an acceptable reason to excuse poor behavior. That is,

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Speaker 3: when it's somebody, when a male is not being a bonus,

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Speaker 3: when he's not adding surplus value but he's actually taking

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Speaker 3: from the room, or when he is not helping people

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Speaker 3: to feel safer and stronger, when he's making people feel

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Speaker 3: weaker and unsafe. Boys will be boys is an appalling

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Speaker 3: and just It's devastating and detrimental for every male, but

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Speaker 3: also for every female when that gets trotted out. I'm

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Speaker 3: actually comfortable with the line. When we're laughing about a

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Speaker 3: bunch of boys kicking a foot around on the beach

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Speaker 3: and tackling each other in the waves while the girls

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Speaker 3: lay there in sun bacon read their phones or their books.

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Speaker 3: That's boys being boys, and I think that we should

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Speaker 3: celebrate those elements of masculine. That's the joy of being

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Speaker 3: a guy. Guys get to do that stuff and they

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Speaker 3: love it. But as soon as it crosses that line,

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Speaker 3: boys will be boys is anathema to what healthy masculinity is.

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Speaker 2: There is enough research to suggest that we thrive on touch,

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Speaker 2: and as females, our touch is kind and gentle, and

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Speaker 2: we give each other a hug or you know, hold

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Speaker 2: hands or whatever it is. Men don't do that. No,

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Speaker 2: their touch comes from the rough and tumble. That's actually

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Speaker 2: where they get their touch so much. It's such an

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Speaker 2: important part development.

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Speaker 3: But knowing when like, it's not okay for me to

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Speaker 3: tackle you, Okay, maybe don't roll your eyes and look

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Speaker 3: like that is a parenting podcast. Anyway, Our time's up.

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Speaker 3: We're going to stop there tomorrow. We are going to

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Speaker 3: deal with this.

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Speaker 6: If my kids decided, well they're not going to but

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Speaker 6: if they decided they were men, that wouldn't be an

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Speaker 6: option in our house. So very clear, God, it won't happen.

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Speaker 3: Strapian Astrapian, Oh my goodness, I mean, I just love

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Speaker 3: this show. Gosh. I hope we get to do a

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Speaker 3: season four. But we'll talk more about episode four from

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Speaker 3: season three and that big topic tomorrow on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from

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Speaker 3: Bridge Media. MIM Hammonds provides research and other support. Craig

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Speaker 3: Bruce has been our executive producer for this limited series.

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Speaker 3: More information and more resources to make you family happier

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Speaker 3: is available at happy families dot com dot au