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Speaker 1: Now we know that there are renewed calls to close

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Speaker 1: don Dale Youth Detention Center with a rally or an

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Speaker 1: event held at Raintree Park on the weekend, and John

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Speaker 1: Lawrence sc joins me in the studio right now to

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Speaker 1: tell us more about the event on the weekend.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, John.

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Speaker 3: Good morning Katie.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for your time. Now, Measure, I know

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Speaker 2: that there was.

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Speaker 1: Quite a few of you there on the weekend, John,

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Speaker 1: What exactly was the event?

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Speaker 3: It was organized by Indigenous grandmothers here Alice Springs, and

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Speaker 3: I think they were similar to in Sydney and Melbourne,

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Speaker 3: and it was basically about addressing the incarceration of juvenile

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Speaker 3: aboriginals here obviously in don Dale, but also elsewhere, so

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Speaker 3: that's what it was. They organized that. There's about half

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Speaker 3: a dozen speakers. It was fairly well attended and they

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Speaker 3: were basically calling on an end to what we continue

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Speaker 3: to do. It's the same request, cry call. None of

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Speaker 3: that's changed. But I suppose the news this week has

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Speaker 3: been On Sunday, I think it was the OPCAT, which

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Speaker 3: is that body from the United Nations who have come

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Speaker 3: to visit or detention centers in jails and that's because

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Speaker 3: we became a signatory to that United Nations Convention in

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Speaker 3: two seventeen. Malcolm Turnbull eventually dragged Australia into becoming a

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Speaker 3: signatory and this was the first visit. And what they

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Speaker 3: have a brief is to go around prisons and detention

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Speaker 3: centers uninvited and they have to be allowed in and

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Speaker 3: they have to be cooperated with so that they can

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Speaker 3: monitor and police and observe the conditions that are in

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Speaker 3: there to make sure that there's no torturing going on

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Speaker 3: or no contradictions to United Nations conventions. They're not a

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Speaker 3: very heavy wielding unit. All they do is observe. If

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Speaker 3: there's things not proper, they report to the federal government

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Speaker 3: who and advise them that you shouldn't have don Dale

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Speaker 3: for instance.

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Speaker 2: And so have I done that in down now yet?

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Speaker 3: Well they've visited don Dale. But what's happened is they've

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Speaker 3: pulled the plug, they've abandoned ship. They've after five or

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Speaker 3: six days, they've said because of the lack of cooperation

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Speaker 3: and difficulties encountered by the various correction bodies in each

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Speaker 3: some of the states, particularly Queensland and New South Wales,

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Speaker 3: but general difficulties, but we don't know what they are.

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Speaker 3: They've said there's not much point in us continuing on

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Speaker 3: this and we're just going to go. So it's a

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Speaker 3: horrible look for Australia as an international body because the

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Speaker 3: United Nations have basically said that the reception we've received

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Speaker 3: as we try to do this has been so poor.

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Speaker 1: So now, John, I know that you know, like you said,

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Speaker 1: the calls still closed on Dale aren't new, but a

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Speaker 1: lot of people are going to be thinking if we're

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Speaker 1: not going to be if we're not going to have

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Speaker 1: kids going into Dondelle who have offended and done some

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Speaker 1: pretty bad stuff, where should they go?

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Speaker 2: What should happen in the main top?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean that's the perennial question, isn't it. When

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Speaker 3: you ask that children shouldn't be kept in a dump

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Speaker 3: like don Dale, A lot of people say, well, where

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Speaker 3: are they're going to go? Where are they going to go? Well,

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Speaker 3: I mean my answer to that is they simply if

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Speaker 3: they have to be detained, say they've committed a serious

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Speaker 3: crime and have been sentenced. Remember seventy percent of these

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Speaker 3: kids are on remand they haven't actually been sentenced. They're

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Speaker 3: just sitting waiting to be dealt with by a court

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Speaker 3: system that's not efficient enough for it. But they if

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Speaker 3: they've committed a serious crime, like a serious assault or

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Speaker 3: maybe even a sexual assault that that can occur and

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Speaker 3: detention is an appropriate option, then they should be placed

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Speaker 3: in a youth detention center that is appropriate and custom

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Speaker 3: built for that. They have them all over the world.

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Speaker 3: They've had them for fifty sixty years. I mean they

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Speaker 3: used to be called Borstal when I was a kid,

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Speaker 3: and they were pretty tough, but they weren't don Dale.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: They had relitation components, they had sport and wreck, they

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Speaker 3: had discipline, they had all that kind of structure and

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Speaker 3: qualified people. So and that could literally have happened here.

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Speaker 3: Remember these kids have been in this prison now for

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Speaker 3: over five years, in fact seven. That could have happened

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Speaker 3: within six months if the government had said right. Revamped

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Speaker 3: on Dale, the original which sits five hundred meters down

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Speaker 3: the road from Beerma. It was purpose built for kids.

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Speaker 3: It has twenty four rooms, no sales, it has classrooms,

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Speaker 3: it has a gem revamp it, spend money, extend it

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Speaker 3: if need be. There's twenty four rooms. That could have happened,

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Speaker 3: But our government have steadfastly refused to do that kind

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Speaker 3: of thing.

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Speaker 1: And so they're building a new one. Though they are

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Speaker 1: building a new facility. What are they telling you, or

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Speaker 1: they're probably not telling you, but how soon are we

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Speaker 1: expecting it to open?

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Speaker 3: Well, they're telling the community for what it's worth. What

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Speaker 3: they say that it's going to be finished next year.

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Speaker 3: Our received correspond and saying October next year hopefully, which

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Speaker 3: to me means twenty twenty four, so you know. And

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Speaker 3: plus they're building it adjacent to the adult prison, which

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Speaker 3: is contra to the Royal Commission's recommendation direct and they're

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Speaker 3: saying it's shangri la. You know, it's just going to

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Speaker 3: be the best thing in the world. It's going to

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Speaker 3: be Holland, Canada, Scandinavia, and you know, the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: I don't believe a word of it. I do not

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Speaker 3: believe a word of it because as student Parliament Hall,

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Speaker 3: when the Royal Commission published its report, Michael Ganner, the

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Speaker 3: then Chief Minister, got up there and said in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned, my greatest priority is the

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Speaker 3: Chief Minister of the Territory, is to ensure that none

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Speaker 3: of this stuff ever happens again. That was seven years ago,

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Speaker 3: and the same thing has been going on and on

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Speaker 3: and on and on and on. Now. I don't know

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Speaker 3: how other people in the community feel about what politicians say,

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Speaker 3: but you know, I think we live in a period now,

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Speaker 3: surely to God, where we realize that whether you Boris Johnson,

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump, Scott Morrison, make or Gunner, you cannot take

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Speaker 3: anything that a politician assauts has been born a fades

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Speaker 3: or even remotely truthful. So I don't believe any of.

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Speaker 1: It, John, I know, though, there's gonna like honestly, and

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Speaker 1: we say this every time. I say this to you,

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Speaker 1: every time you come on the show, and I appreciate

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Speaker 1: that you continue to come on the show, but there

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Speaker 1: will be so many people listening this morning who are

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Speaker 1: sort of thinking to themselves, Look, I've heard this before.

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Speaker 1: I have heard the calls for don Dale to close.

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Speaker 1: But unfortunately I continue to suffer from you said of

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Speaker 1: breaking the law, either breaking into my home. You know.

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Speaker 1: Even on the weekend, there was an older woman who

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Speaker 1: was assaulted by two teenagers, allegedly knocked to the ground

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Speaker 1: and had a wrist broken at a shopping center in Casarina.

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Speaker 1: So there is going to be people listening that are

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Speaker 1: that are just thinking to themselves, well, what are the alternatives?

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Speaker 3: Well they're frustrated, yes, and they're angry and they're scared,

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Speaker 3: and you sound like a broken record, and I seem

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Speaker 3: like a broken record because what I'm going to see

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Speaker 3: is the brooken record, which is that's all bad and

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Speaker 3: it has to be reduced. They will never be stopped,

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Speaker 3: but it has to be reduced, and it can be reduced.

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Speaker 3: But what we're doing now is guaranteeing that those cremes

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Speaker 3: will continue, if not increase. By putting children that are

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Speaker 3: delinquent to use an all face in town in Dondale

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Speaker 3: without any rehab and treating them like absolute garbage, you're

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Speaker 3: just going to guarantee, without a shadow of a date,

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Speaker 3: that when they come out, they're going to continue. Crame

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Speaker 3: teleticians know that.

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Speaker 1: Can you paint a picture for us because a lot

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Speaker 1: of us have never been into don Dale, right, A

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Speaker 1: lot of us have no idea you know, what programs

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Speaker 1: might be operating or what might not be operating. So

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Speaker 1: I know, for me, I think, well, look, if a

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Speaker 1: child goes into don Dale, if a youth goes in there,

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Speaker 1: I expect that there is going to be rehabilitation programs

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Speaker 1: for them to undertake, because that's the whole aim that

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Speaker 1: you know, they then come out better people, not better offenders.

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Speaker 1: Are they undertaking rehab programs from your perspective that are

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Speaker 1: going to help them?

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Speaker 3: Virtually none and far less than they used to be

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Speaker 3: ten twenty years ago. We have deteriorated, and you know,

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Speaker 3: you know what should happen, really and be interested to

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Speaker 3: see what you think you should be allowed in there.

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Speaker 2: You changed to.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely you speak for the people. You inform and advise

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Speaker 3: the people on what's going down. And there's no good

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Speaker 3: reason I can see why the media shouldn't be a

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Speaker 3: given access like OPCAT were given access so that you

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Speaker 3: can come back and say, well, I've actually been in

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Speaker 3: there and I can tell you what's going down now.

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Speaker 3: I've been in there. I've been in there hundreds of times.

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Speaker 3: I went there when it was an adult jail and

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Speaker 3: it was pretty ghastly. And what's more, I went in

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Speaker 3: I've been in the B block, which was the maximum

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Speaker 3: security section when it was the adult prison. Now you

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Speaker 3: had to go in there to visit your client because

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Speaker 3: they weren't allowed out into the visiting yard because they

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Speaker 3: were so dangerous, or they needed protection because they were

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Speaker 3: convicted pedophiles. So I used to go into B Block

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Speaker 3: and visit them in their cells or in their adjacent area.

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Speaker 3: And it's horrible. It's I mean, it's actually imagine in

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Speaker 3: a Victorian sense. It's steel, it's keys, it's bangs, it shouts,

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Speaker 3: it's concrete. It's like a ghost trading times ten. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's a really horror show. And to place children who

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Speaker 3: we know are already cognitively impaired. Because most of these kids,

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Speaker 3: the reason that the real explanation why they're carrying on

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Speaker 3: and committing crimes is they've ran away from home because

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Speaker 3: homes a war zone, and they've been subjected and they've

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Speaker 3: been exposed to watching violence and trauma and drug abuse

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Speaker 3: and alcohol abuse, and so the behavior is affected accordingly.

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Speaker 3: So you know, they're completely affected and bruised. So the

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Speaker 3: last thing anybody would ever dream of doing to a

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Speaker 3: twelve year old that's in a condition such as that,

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Speaker 3: it's put them in don Dale because you know for

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Speaker 3: a fact that it's going to make the kid's condition

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Speaker 3: and his behavior worse. We're digging our own grieve and

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Speaker 3: that's again a message I'd like to send to the

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Speaker 3: victims of crime who are jacked off with all these

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Speaker 3: kids running a muck and nothing ever seeming to fix it. Well,

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Speaker 3: all I'm seeing is I can sympathize. I mean, we've

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Speaker 3: all been touched by it to a degree, but what

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Speaker 3: the government continues to do is going to make it worse.

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Speaker 2: Exest, this is where we're at it.

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Speaker 1: I reckon at the moment where people are, to put

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Speaker 1: it really bluntly, they're so pisced off with the issues

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Speaker 1: that we're seeing. You know, every day I'm seeing information

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Speaker 1: come through from the police about different crimes that are

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Speaker 1: being committed.

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Speaker 2: By young people.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the time, we've got listeners calling in,

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Speaker 1: going Katie, where are their parents or where are their families?

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Speaker 2: Why are they not rallying around them to.

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Speaker 1: Get them off the streets or stop them engaging in

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Speaker 1: this kind of behavior.

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Speaker 2: But then you know, we're hearing from.

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Speaker 1: The government all right, well, we want to actually have

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Speaker 1: different programs in place so kids can rehabilitate, but we're

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Speaker 1: not really seeing or finding out more about what those

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Speaker 1: programs are. So I think the message that's getting through

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Speaker 1: really clear to me. Is people have not only had enough,

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Speaker 1: but they're feeling as though nothing's changing in any way.

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Speaker 3: And it's getting worse. It's getting worse, I mean, and

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Speaker 3: it's going to get worse if you keep kids in

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Speaker 3: conditions like that.

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Speaker 2: So what are the alternatives there?

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Speaker 1: John? You know, I suppose That's what I'm getting to with,

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Speaker 1: you know, from for our listeners, is what do you

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Speaker 1: reckon the alternatives are? Because even the week or so

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Speaker 1: ago when they said we're raising the criminal age of

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Speaker 1: responsibility and we're going to implement these different programs, but

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Speaker 1: there didn't seem to be a lot of evidence or

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Speaker 1: a lot of discussion about what those programs actually are.

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Speaker 3: I think the first alternative has to be that we

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Speaker 3: have to look at this honestly, we have to talk

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Speaker 3: truth because this is a really holistic issue. I was

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Speaker 3: listening earlier to the domestic violence issue, and that's a monster.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's a horror show and it's probably the

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Speaker 3: biggest disaster in Australia our society at the moment is

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Speaker 3: the danger that women are in and it's getting worse

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Speaker 3: and worse and worse. And you know, with the grace

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Speaker 3: of respect to the Don House and all that, which

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Speaker 3: are you know, short term heroic measures to deal with

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Speaker 3: or try and help women and deal with men as well.

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Speaker 3: We've got to look at this in the big picture.

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Speaker 3: This is out of control and it's similar to juvenile

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Speaker 3: crime here. I mean, we can't just say we're going

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Speaker 3: to put a program in the new don Dale because

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Speaker 3: the kids are going to go in there for a

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Speaker 3: month and you know they're going to come out again.

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Speaker 3: So we're kidding ourselves on to just use these words.

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Speaker 3: We definitely have a problem and one of the explanations

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Speaker 3: for it is that all of these kids, and they're

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Speaker 3: all Indigenous, most of them are Indigenous, and many of

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Speaker 3: them and Darwin at least, come from that stream of

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Speaker 3: stolen generation antecedents, which include you know, suffering from post

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Speaker 3: trauma from generation to generation. We've got to look at

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Speaker 3: it in a holistic way and realize that, you know,

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Speaker 3: what we've been doing today doesn't work. That's all I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: Right There isn't a pill here that fixed this. But

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Speaker 3: if we could only be honest about it and stop

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Speaker 3: just listening to the newspapers the radio, I mean.

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Speaker 2: You know, listening to me, John, I don't think so.

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Speaker 3: No, no, now, listen, listen. Let me just give you

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Speaker 3: an example of how the media can be a bit

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Speaker 3: a bit dangerous here. This has been going on for

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Speaker 3: thirty years. It's called the law and order debate or

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Speaker 3: tough on crime. You know what I'm talking about now.

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Speaker 3: I went to see the anti news journalist Craig Dunlop,

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Speaker 3: who used to work up here.

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Speaker 1: All right, we better be I just need to make

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Speaker 1: sure that we're okful. We are running out of time

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 3: John, all right, well, he gave evidence that the Parliamentary

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Speaker 3: Committee on Youth Crime and he said that journalists learn

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Speaker 3: on day two of school that the public like negative stories,

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Speaker 3: not positive stories.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, I can't speak for him, but I know,

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Speaker 1: like for me, what we like, Well, what we talk

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Speaker 1: about is basically what impact listeners.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but this is a self perpetuating thing.

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Speaker 2: So what do you think that we shouldn't report on it?

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Speaker 3: Of course not, of course you must report on it.

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Speaker 3: But there is a relationship between the media and politicians

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Speaker 3: which self perpetuates itself. The politicians listening to the media.

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Speaker 3: The media say crimes out of control. The politician says,

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Speaker 3: I'll cure it. Vote for me, and this has been

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Speaker 3: going on forever and ever, and it's definitely the case that.

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Speaker 3: Look at the NT news story the other day where

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Speaker 3: I have to read this out, so it's going to

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Speaker 3: be short. That the author is Riley Walter, an NT journalist,

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Speaker 3: and he talks about a guy that got sentenced to

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Speaker 3: eighteen three years imprisonment suspended after eighteen months. But he

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Speaker 3: describes it like this, a man of the serious history

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Speaker 3: of violent offending who knocked a stranger out, had more

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Speaker 3: than half of his prison terms suspended. And the headline

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Speaker 3: is sentence slashed, and then he goes on to tell

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Speaker 3: us that he's going to be out of here six

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Speaker 3: months right now. The actual sentence was three years imprisonment backdated.

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Speaker 3: You've already said over twelve months. You'll be released in

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Speaker 3: eighteen months. But the newspaper deliberately gives the impression to

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Speaker 3: the reader that once again, here we go blooks getting

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Speaker 3: chocolate biscuits for doing very serious cream. Now that's deliberate.

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Speaker 3: There's no in main. Mate.

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Speaker 1: I'm obviously not the journalist, so I can't, you know,

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Speaker 1: I can't determine how they've chosen to run a story

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Speaker 1: or how they've not but what I can say is

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Speaker 1: I know that you know, for us here on the radio.

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Speaker 2: Station, we're actually like we every day.

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Speaker 1: We're getting phone calls from people who are the victims

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Speaker 1: of crime. So it's pretty hard to ignore. It's pretty

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Speaker 1: hard to ignore that people are hurting. It's pretty hard

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Speaker 1: to ignore. You know, we had locked cars being stolen,

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Speaker 1: businesses being ram rated, people being assaulted by youths in

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Speaker 1: you know, in the city.

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Speaker 2: We'd heard about that last week.

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Speaker 1: It's hard for us to ignore that and get you know,

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Speaker 1: I get the argument that you're making that obviously those

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Speaker 1: negative stories sell, but it's also stuff that's happening to

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Speaker 1: people every single day.

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Speaker 3: It is happening. But we're not in the Ukraine. And

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Speaker 3: you know, if an objective person came into this community

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Speaker 3: and read what's in the newspapers and listen, they might

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Speaker 3: think they're in Libya and it really you know, some.

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Speaker 1: Of those businesses might feel like they are going through

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Speaker 1: it pretty bad.

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Speaker 3: Well I'm sure they do feel that they are going

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Speaker 3: through it pretty bad. But the point I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: make is that this cycle has been going on for

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Speaker 3: twenty years, and all it's led to is a punitive

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Speaker 3: approach which has not worked. Now, what I would like

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Speaker 3: the media to consider is changing the direction, changing the approach,

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Speaker 3: looking at what is causing it historically, and thinking about

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Speaker 3: how it can be fixed. Because we have to plead

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Speaker 3: guilty to the fact that what we have been doing

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Speaker 3: today is only making this worse. Therefore we must change.

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Speaker 2: Well, John, we are going to have to wrap up.

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Speaker 1: We've got to go across to the eleven o'clock National

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Speaker 1: News for a couple of minutes late.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate your time this morning. I know that some.

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Speaker 1: People fire up a lot after you've been on the show,

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Speaker 1: but look, I think that we've got to look at

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Speaker 1: things a little bit differently.

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Speaker 2: So I appreciate you having a chat with me this morning.

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Speaker 2: You too,