1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Would you say no to a million dollars? I mean, 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: imagine if your business was minutes away from securing a 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: huge investment boost, only for the founder to turn it down. 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: What could possibly make someone say no to such a 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: big payday? A nose ring? Doctor Katrina Wallace founded Flamingo AI, 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: which became only the second women led company to list 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: on the ASX. And yep, she turned down one million 8 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: dollars because of a nose ring. But we'll get to 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: that soon. Kat also happens to be one of my 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: favorite people in the world and has been my friend 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: and business mentor for over a decade. In this very 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: honest chat, Kat tells me about how she dealt with 13 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: some incredibly blatant sexism during her time as the founder 14 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: and CEO of both a private and then publicly listed company, 15 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: the most important lessons that she has learned about leadership, 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: and we even get into talking about experimentation into psychedelics. 17 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist 18 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: is how I work a show about how to help 20 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: you do your best work. If you've met Kat, well 21 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: maybe you've seen a photo of her, you'll probably have 22 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: noticed her nose ring. But what you probably didn't know 23 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,919 Speaker 1: when you saw that nose ring is that it cost 24 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: Kat one million dollars. 25 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: So I was with my female chair and board directors 26 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 2: of Flamingo Ai AI company. We've just listed on the 27 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 2: ASX as the second ever only woman chairwoman CEO to 28 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: list on the ASX, so being a woman with a 29 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 2: bit of a novelty. We were in Melbourne and we 30 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: were presenting to a whole room of all male investors 31 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 2: and we did a pitch. We did a good pitch, 32 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: and then we're in the airport lounge on the way 33 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 2: flying back to Sydney when one of the investors rang 34 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 2: one of our board directors and said we would love 35 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 2: to invest a million dollars into the business. And we 36 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 2: overheard that we were very excited about it. And then 37 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: I could see the blood draining out of my director's 38 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: face as he was listening to the rest of the call. 39 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: And the rest of the call was the investor who 40 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 2: represented the team of investors giving the conditions by which 41 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: they would provide the million dollars. So I heard that 42 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: there were some good conditions, so I said to the 43 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 2: director standing behind him, Oh, look, if it's revenue targets 44 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 2: or reducing the cost of customer acquisition or reducing the burn, 45 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: just let us know what those targets are associated with 46 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: the million dollar investment. Anyway, you see more blood draining 47 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 2: out of the director's face. And he got off the 48 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: phone and he said to me, right, well, they do 49 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 2: have a condition. And I said, okay, well, you know, 50 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: revenue profit, what is it? And they said no, the 51 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: condition is we will invest the one million dollars into 52 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: the business if the female CEO takes her nose ring out. 53 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: And we went, what, like what it's a joke, right, 54 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: and he said, no joke, They're deadly serious. There's a 55 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: million dollars on the table if you take your nose 56 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 2: ring out. 57 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: Wow, what did you do? Haha? 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: I sort of half laughed and cried and then just 59 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 2: looked at my chair and said, there's no way we'll 60 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: take that money and there's no way there's nose rings 61 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: coming out. And so we I told my director, who 62 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: was really not too happy, to decline the offer. And 63 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: then the very next day I went to Gleab Markets 64 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: and bought a much bigger nose ring and put it in. 65 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: Wow. Was there a point where you considered taking your 66 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: nose ring out? 67 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: No, but there was plenty of people it did say 68 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: to me, look, it's a million dollars. You do more 69 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 2: than you do less for a million dollars and take 70 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: a nose ring out. But for me, what I had 71 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: already learned having been around the investment fueled for a 72 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: little while, was it's about the type of investor you 73 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 2: get into the business. It's not so much the money 74 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: that you get is the type of investor. And if 75 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,239 Speaker 2: we were starting off with investors who were most concerned 76 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 2: about my physical appearance, then that was all going to 77 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: go downhill after that. So I was wise enough to 78 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 2: know this would not be good money into the business. 79 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: I know that you experienced a lot of sexist behavior 80 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: as a female leader of a tech company. What were 81 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: some of the low points or the low things that happened. 82 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, So there was a big challenge I believe by 83 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: the main of the investment community, and this is mainly 84 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 2: the capital markets to the public markets, much less so 85 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: in the venture capital markets. Really challenged to have a 86 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 2: woman who is also a mother. So I have five children, 87 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 2: so two step sons and three of my own who've 88 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: all grown up together. And so I did have investors 89 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 2: say to me, can you please tell us how you 90 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: can possibly run an ASX listed company that's based in 91 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: Sydney and New York and raised children and I was 92 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: a single mother at the time. To them, that was 93 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 2: all in impossible package. And in fact we had I 94 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 2: saw messages on chat groups where people say, oh, we'd 95 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 2: really love to invest in this business. However, the founder 96 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 2: of the CEO is a woman and a mother, so't 97 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: we're not going to invest. So there was definitely that 98 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: perception that if you not us to a female, but 99 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: in particular if you're also a mother, let alone a 100 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 2: single mother, then there's no way that you could actually 101 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: be a reasonable CEO. 102 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: Wow, what did you do to overcome those perceptions? 103 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, what I had to start to deal with 104 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,679 Speaker 2: is not be defensive. So there's a lot of personal work. 105 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 2: I had to do a huge amount of personal work 106 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 2: because in being in the public eye, everything you do, 107 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: you say, you look, everything is scrutinized, and then on 108 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 2: a thousand chat rooms and in the media and everything. 109 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: So the first thing was me to just build up 110 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: internal resilience to just not have these constant criticisms affect 111 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: me or for me to feel that I had to 112 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: be defensive all the time. And my way of doing 113 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 2: that was that was my step into deeply working in mindfulness. 114 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 2: So having a practice every day of mindfulness, yoga, exercise, 115 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: I read a lot around mindfulness. So that was a 116 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: real savior for me as getting resilience to handling the criticism. 117 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: And then it was really just not to take it personally. 118 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: You know, I'm there to do a job. It's not personal. 119 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: Even though it was highly personal, I wouldn't take it personally. 120 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: And I also knew I was representing other women and 121 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: women who were to come after me. If I could 122 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: help just kind of push through some of those boundaries 123 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: and those perceptions, then that would be useful. So I 124 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: was inspired to do it for women other women as well. 125 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: So what does your daily practice look like around mindfulness 126 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: and exercise and yoga. 127 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's definitely something I try to do every 128 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: day but do not always manage to do it. So 129 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: I used I was originally used Sam Harris's mindfulness training 130 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: here called Waking Up, and I just do that every day. 131 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: And then I got into a bit of stoicism, so 132 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 2: following stoic practices then Cohen's koa n and just started 133 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 2: to bring these practices into my daily life. And so 134 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: I would spend possibly an hour a day between meditation, 135 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: some gratitude and reflections, journaling huge thing for me, journaling, 136 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: and then movement so yoga or running or stretching or 137 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: something like that. So if I can do that an 138 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 2: hour a day, not necessarily an hour together, it really 139 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: is the foundation for my mental, physical, spiritual, emotional health, 140 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 2: and I'm a much better leader as a result of it. 141 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: What do you do though, when you just don't feel 142 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: like it? And I say this from personal experience, Like 143 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: I've tried to have a mindfulness practice. I'm pretty good 144 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 1: with my exercise practice and that's very habitual, but when 145 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: I've tried doing bouts of mindfulness, it's like there are 146 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: so many days it's like I can't be bothered. Like, 147 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: what do you do when you're feeling like that? I mean, 148 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: it's obviously having great long term benefits, but in the moment, 149 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: it's not like you feel the benefits instantly. 150 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: I'm assuming Yeah, So I would say, don't be bothered 151 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: if you're not bothered, Like on a day, don't be 152 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 2: bothered and don't tach yourself about it. So if it's 153 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: just not going for you for that day, then just 154 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: acknowledge and be mindful about Hey, I'd like to meditate today, 155 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 2: but I don't feel like it, Like my mind is 156 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 2: crazy all over the place. I've got I'm tired, or 157 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: I'm emotional, or there's too much work. But I'm mindful 158 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 2: that right now, I'm not going to sit in my practice. 159 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 2: But what I would like to do is i'd like 160 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: to do that tomorrow. And so I think you just 161 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 2: bring that mindfulness about not being mindful. Don't touch you, 162 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 2: just don't touch yourself because the more you pressure yourself, 163 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 2: the less likely you are to do it. So there 164 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: are plenty of days where I wake up and I 165 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: just go, nope, not feeling it, not feeling it. But 166 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: I'm conscious I'm not feeling it. Why am I not 167 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 2: feeling it? Oh, I've got pressure. Where's that pressure? That 168 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: pressure is here? Okay, that might be something I need 169 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 2: to look at later today. 170 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: I want to come back to the sexism, and I 171 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: mean in terms of not getting defensive when you are 172 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: met with these ridiculous comments and perceptions. I get that 173 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: you've got this almost foundational routine that helps, but what 174 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: do you do in the moment, because I can imagine 175 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: it would be so easy to just get defensive and 176 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: respond kind of impetuously. 177 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 2: Right, yes, so often what I would do. So I'll 178 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: give you an example. So there was a time when 179 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: I was doing a presentation to a whole bunch of 180 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 2: investors and one of the investors came up to me afterwards, 181 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: and an older man who said to me, look, I've 182 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 2: got some criticism about your presentation. And I said, oh, okay, sure, 183 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 2: happy to hear it again. You know, it's the numbers 184 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: not quite right, or I'm missing anything. And he said, 185 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 2: the dress that you're wearing, it's too sparkly, and I'm 186 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: my attention was on the dress and I couldn't focus 187 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 2: on your presentation, and it was like gold smacked obviously, 188 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 2: but it was like, ah, I see okay, And so 189 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 2: then it's just like, oh, so I hear that perhaps 190 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 2: you were distracted because of the dress that I'm wearing 191 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 2: and you weren't able to focus on the presentation. And 192 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: the incredible amount of financial details that I provided in 193 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: that presentation is that what you're missing and he said, yes, 194 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: that's right. And so instead of like then ridiculing him, 195 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 2: because obviously it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, 196 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 2: I just sit and there were people standing around me watching, 197 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: like how is she going to handle this? And I 198 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: was just very kind and said, I hear that you 199 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 2: weren't able to concentrate and that that's a shame because 200 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 2: there was really rich stuff in the presentation. So what 201 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: I'll do I will email you through that presentation and 202 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: there you won't have me in the spar luckly dress 203 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: to distract you, so you could just focus on the 204 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: numbers in the presentation. How would that sound? And he said, oh, 205 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: that would be very good, and I said that's great. 206 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 2: We'll make sure that happens. And so for me, instead 207 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 2: of going oh, you idiot, like, well would you say 208 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 2: something like that, it's very much like obviously this is 209 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: a person that has absolutely no awareness that what he 210 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: said was entirely sexist and inappropriate. But for me, I 211 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: believe I needed to assist him in understanding how to 212 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 2: kind of handle things rather than dismiss him or be 213 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: rude or anything else. And I do have other younger 214 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 2: women who are always with me, because wherever I go 215 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: take women with me. And I was also just watching 216 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 2: them kind of watch me handle these situations should I 217 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 2: have time and time again. So I've learned to actually 218 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: just be very empathetic. I believe my role as a 219 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: woman leader is also to assist those who struggle with 220 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 2: women leaders understand how to interact with us, rather than 221 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 2: dismissing them and being angry with them and marginalizing them. 222 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, what a story. 223 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: I wasn't always like that much. 224 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: Were there any sort of like key moments that you 225 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: look back on and think that that changed me in 226 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: terms of how I think about responding to these ridiculous comments. 227 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I had another really intense situation with one 228 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 2: of the investors who had put a lot of money 229 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 2: in the business, and it was at a time in 230 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: the business the share price had dropped and so he'd 231 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: on paper he'd lost a lot of money. He was 232 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: very angry. He came and he wanted up meeting with 233 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 2: the board directors. So he came in and we sat down, 234 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: and he was fuming. He was furious, and he was 235 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 2: aiming all his quite vile anger and fury towards me 236 00:13:55,440 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: and was saying things like you should be sacked. I'm paying, 237 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: and I pay for your children, and I pay for 238 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 2: your standard of living. In all of this. It was 239 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 2: just horrendous. And all the board members were just like, 240 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: which are all male other than me, We're just like, 241 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: what did we do? And then they were trying to 242 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 2: be aggressive to him, and it wasn't what he was 243 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 2: just making him more aggressive, and I realized, like I realized, man, 244 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: he is just in pain because he has lost money. 245 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: And I'm the CEO. It's my responsibility. So I'm just 246 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: going to own this shit right here, and I'm actually 247 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: going to say how sorry I am. And so I 248 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 2: got a bit emotional and I said that to the guy. 249 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: I said, look, I'm really sorry. I hear that you're 250 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: in a huge amount of pain because you've lost money 251 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: in this investment and that's really really bad and it 252 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 2: must be causing you all sorts of grief at home. 253 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 2: And I'm the CEO. I'm responsible for that, and so 254 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: I just want to say to you that I'm incredibly, 255 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: incredibly sorry for the pain that my leadership has caused you. Anyway, 256 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: all the other directors going don't say that, doesn't it. 257 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 2: And I just hailed him, and I was like a 258 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: few tears in my eyes, and he immediately softened, and 259 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: he immediately softened, and he was then emotional, and he 260 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: walked around the table, came over and just gave me 261 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 2: a big hug and said that's all I wanted to hear. 262 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 2: I went, oh, my god, Okay, great, great, and then 263 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: I walked him, you know, downstairs and out the door. 264 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 2: And when I came back, my chairman, who was a 265 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: very experienced chairman, he said, I've never seen anything like 266 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: that in my life, never seen anything like that. And 267 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 2: I said, well, that was my genuine truth. I'm genuinely 268 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: sorry that he was in so much pain, and his 269 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: anger is coming from a place of loss, and I'm 270 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: responsible for that, so I'll own that. And so that 271 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: was a really profound moment for me to realize to 272 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: not just do all the corporate the way we're trained, 273 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: which is much more a masculine way, which is don't 274 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: admit anything, never be sorry, never show weakness, never be emotional. 275 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: And I dropped all that because that would never work, 276 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: and just was my genuine self and I was genuinely 277 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: sorry that he was in pain. Genuinely sorry for all 278 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: investors that lost money in any adventure that I've been in. 279 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 2: Also very happy for the ones who've made money pretty 280 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: much I've been in. But for the ones who've lost money, 281 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 2: you know that I really feel that. I take that 282 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 2: as a personal a personal thing. 283 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, as a female leader, I know you have got 284 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: a lot of female mentors, and you have been one 285 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: of my female mentors, one of my most wonderful ones 286 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: for the last ten years or however long we've known 287 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: each other. What have been some of the most valuable 288 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: lessons you've learned from the people that you look up to. 289 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting that I haven't actually really had a 290 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 2: mentor as such. I don't know why I do now 291 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 2: that I'm working in these other fields that hopefully we'll 292 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: talk about a little bit of time where I am 293 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 2: being trained and mentored in a particular practice. But interesting enough, 294 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: I didn't really have mentors in business, and that is 295 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 2: probably because I was one of the early female entrepreneurs 296 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: in Australia and we didn't really have that many mentors available. 297 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 2: I did have good mentors for a little bit of 298 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 2: time through Springboard Enterprises, which is a great women led business. 299 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 2: But I think for me, what I have learned just 300 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: from around the field as a woman entrepreneur is knowing 301 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: your numbers and finances are very important and it's something 302 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 2: that women traditionally may not have had a lot of 303 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 2: time in training and learning. It's very different now. I 304 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 2: think there's a lot more women who were deeply trained 305 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 2: in finance. But that is extremely important. I think it's 306 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 2: also to be women leaders is just to truly own 307 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: our own power. So many years ago, as you would 308 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 2: know because you're involved in it too, was the Australian 309 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: Financial Review winner of the Entrepreneur and Business Women of 310 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 2: Influence and so that was like, wow, great, Wow, I'm 311 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: acknowledged as a woman of influence. And then I went, 312 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 2: why am I only influential? And I looked at what 313 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 2: the men's awards were, and the men's were the men's 314 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 2: Westpac Men of Power. So you had the AFA Women 315 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: of Influence and the men of Hell the fuck what? No, Like, 316 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 2: why am I not powerful? And so I looked at 317 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: that and I looked at the definition. So influence is 318 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: the ability to indirectly affect change, and power is the 319 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 2: ability to directly affect change and so from that moment there, 320 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, no, we can't always just be 321 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,719 Speaker 2: about influence. We women have to be about power. So 322 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: for me, it was very much how do we move 323 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,719 Speaker 2: into positions of power, and that is in being directly 324 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 2: able to affect change in our own businesses and other 325 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: people's businesses. And so I have made sure then I've 326 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 2: gone into roles such as I chair a venture capital 327 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 2: fund now so I can have significant say in what 328 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: we do and how we do it, and that's going 329 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 2: really well. And so I really learned that not just 330 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: to be of influence, but really to own power and 331 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 2: to do that in the way we women do it, 332 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 2: which is again very different to a traditional masculine or 333 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 2: patriarchal way. And I think women's power comes much more 334 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 2: with caring, nurturing, support, community engagement, for doing things for purpose, 335 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 2: doing things for meaning. And I think that's really what 336 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 2: I've learned, what I try and share. 337 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: We will be back with Kat speaking very candidly about 338 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: the huge difference between being a CEO of a private 339 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: company versus the CEO of a public company where every 340 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: word you say is under scrutiny. If you're looking for 341 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: more tips to improve the way that you work. I 342 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: write a short, fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things 343 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: that I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from 344 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: software and gadgets that I'm loving through to interesting research findings. 345 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot code. 346 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: That's how I Work dot co. I want to talk 347 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: about the difference between being the CEO of a private 348 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: company versus a public company. And let's start with just 349 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: what's the difference between a private versus a public company. 350 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 2: It's massive, it's a massive difference. It's just so different, 351 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 2: it's pulls apart. So let's just go through the basics. 352 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 2: So in a private company, you can have your financials, 353 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 2: you can have your clients, you can have your stuff, 354 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 2: and nobody really needs to know about it other than 355 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 2: your own internal investors. So it's very private. When you're 356 00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 2: running a public company, everything is public. So everything you do, 357 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 2: so every client that you have, every trial that you do, 358 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 2: every success you have, every failure you have, every dollar 359 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 2: you spend, everything you do on social media, everything you 360 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 2: do in the general media, it's all in the public 361 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 2: domain and on public record, and so that makes it 362 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: enormously difficult and the real challenge I found. So we 363 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: were one of the very first tech startups on the AX, 364 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 2: so we were very young, we were pre revenue. We're 365 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 2: based out of New York and so the Australian capital 366 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 2: market didn't understand artificial intelligence, American business nor startup so 367 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: that was a big challenge. And the statistics are now 368 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 2: that eighty seven percent of all AI pilots never go 369 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 2: into production, so that will turn that around and you 370 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 2: have one in ten pilots will ever go into into production. 371 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 2: So we would use to announce things on the Mark 372 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 2: stock market from our big clients in the US, so 373 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 2: Liberty Mutual, we've just won a pilot with them. Now, 374 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: normally a private company would never have to announce that 375 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 2: they've done won a pilot pilot. You don't announce pilots 376 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,239 Speaker 2: with a one in ten chance, only that it's going 377 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: to succeed. So we would announce that. We'd have to 378 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: announce that we had the pilot, even though our clients 379 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 2: really didn't want to announce it, and then if it 380 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: didn't go ahead, we'd also have to announce that it 381 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: didn't go ahead. And the moment we announced that we'd 382 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 2: lose thirty percent of our share price, which could be 383 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 2: tens of millions of dollars off the share price, And 384 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 2: so it was this terrible roller coaster of we've won something, 385 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 2: we've lost one, which is very very normal in a 386 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 2: private setting where no one would have to know about it, 387 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 2: but in a public setting then it would be all 388 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 2: through the media. Everyone would be trolling us on social media, 389 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 2: and it was enormously difficult. So it really just is 390 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 2: the public nature of everything you do, and it also 391 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 2: is me as a CEO, I would have spent thirty 392 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 2: percent of my time least on managing investors, the media, 393 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 2: all of the reporting that you have to do for disclosures, 394 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 2: and I should have really ideally had that thirty percent 395 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 2: running the business more effectively. So it's a very challenging 396 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 2: environment for a young company, and I don't think it's 397 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 2: a suitable place at all for startups. 398 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: I could imagine from everything I know of you like 399 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: you're just you're so who you are and you don't 400 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: censor what you say. But then I could imagine being 401 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: the CEO of a publicly listed company and having everything 402 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: under scrutiny would be so challenging. How did you balance 403 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,719 Speaker 1: your like just your authenticity. I hate that word. It's 404 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: so overused, but I feel like you embody it with 405 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: what is expected and what will be documented and what 406 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: will be you know, influence share price and what comes 407 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: out of your mouth. 408 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, So that was a big which I had 409 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 2: to make, and I really had to tone myself right down, 410 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,959 Speaker 2: and anything I said publicly sometimes the board would have 411 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 2: to oversee it. And if I did say something where I, 412 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 2: you know, was a little bit on the edge, then 413 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 2: sometimes the board would reprimand me. And so that was 414 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: all like, wow, this is like really challenging. And then 415 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 2: when I so we sold the company two years ago, 416 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 2: and then when I went back into just being in 417 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 2: private business, oh it's so great. So example, when the 418 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: federal government election was recently on, and just beforehand, the 419 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 2: liberal government came out and said, oh, we're going to 420 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: do a tech round table and I went, well, a 421 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 2: tech roundtable? 422 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: Oh? 423 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 2: Is that it is? That your tech policy? And I'm 424 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 2: on social media? And then the next day Labor released 425 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 2: their one billion dollar tech fund. I go, oh, and 426 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: Labor's going to do a one billion dollar tech fund. Okay, 427 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 2: who you know, how's this going to go? Everybody a 428 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: tech round table or a billion dollar fund for technology 429 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: who thinks they know what the hell's going on? And 430 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 2: so now I'm just in social media all the time. 431 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: It's just like and you know, because I'm big on 432 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 2: the metaverse, now it's like calling out the metaverse providers, 433 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 2: calling out government, pulling up the politicians if they're saying 434 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 2: something I don't think it's authentic. Really working with it 435 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: was a great minister Dominello, Victor Dominello when you south 436 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 2: was who's just I reckon? He's a champion, So you know, 437 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 2: I can say really good positive things about him, the 438 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 2: stuff he's doing. It's so much better and easier being 439 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 2: not being in the public I'm still a public eye, 440 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: but not representing a public company where the share price, 441 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 2: the share price would go up and down based on 442 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 2: what I said. 443 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: God, how like I've heard from some CEOs of public 444 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: listened companies that part of the challenge is trying to 445 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: detach yourself and your decisions from a fluctuating share price. 446 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: I imagine that was probably key in your role. How 447 00:25:59,200 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: did you do that? 448 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 2: Oh? 449 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: That was really difficult. 450 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 2: So we would have to look at the share price 451 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 2: every day and monitor it every day. And initially I 452 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 2: would get very very stressed to be up to be down, 453 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: and that it wouldn't make sense. We'd do a really good 454 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 2: announcement and the share price would drop, and I had 455 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: to learn the dynamics of the share market because that 456 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: would mean simply that some people knew the share price 457 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 2: is going to go up, so they would sell out 458 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 2: to get a lift on what they'd brought in on. 459 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 2: It wasn't actually that everyone thought that was a bad thing, 460 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: that we'd want a piece of business. So I had 461 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 2: to learn the patterns and the cycles of the share 462 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 2: market and the share price, and that was that's quite 463 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 2: a skill, and there's a real science in there. And 464 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 2: then sometimes it's completely unpredictable, and then other times it 465 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: depends what's going on in the US market, depends on 466 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 2: some other tech stocks just crashed, and so we get 467 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 2: the wave of that. So that was, yeah, it was difficult. 468 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 2: It was hard not to take it very personally to 469 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 2: start with, and to be just following it all the time. 470 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 2: And also in the chat room, so there's this terrible 471 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 2: place called hot Copper, which is the day trader's chat 472 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: rooms where they just dissect everything, and often I would 473 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 2: look in there, and they'd just be horrendous things being 474 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 2: said about the company or about me or my team, 475 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 2: and eventually I would just just not look at that anymore. 476 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,239 Speaker 2: Just don't look at it, don't pay attention to it, 477 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 2: don't take any of it on. Just focus on the business, 478 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 2: ignore the share price to a degree, and just focus 479 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 2: on improving the business is the only way through it. 480 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: Now. Something that you have started experimenting with is psychedelics, 481 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: and I think we need some disclaimers upfront before we 482 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: talk about that, if you will, Kat. 483 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 2: Yes, of course. So I mean in the country of Australia, 484 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:55,239 Speaker 2: most psychedelics or psychoactive plant medicines are illegal and they 485 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 2: are also not suitable for everyone. But there are other 486 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 2: countries in the world, some of which I travel to, 487 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 2: where psychedelics are indeed legal and have come from traditional 488 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 2: communities and environments as part of their either spiritual path 489 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 2: or their medicine or their healing path. So often they're 490 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: not called psychedelics, They're called plant medicine or medicine. 491 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: I'm curious as to how you've gone about kind of 492 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: learning about essentially what is a whole new world for you, 493 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: And you mentioned you know perhaps there might be some 494 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: mentors in that space, even though perhaps there's been a 495 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: lack of mentors in the entrepreneurial and. 496 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 2: Tech space right, So yes, let's just dive into it. 497 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: So I am working with a number of plant medicines, 498 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: and these are traditional sacraments that come from the earth, 499 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 2: so that could be Ayahuascar is one of them, and 500 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 2: Buffo alvius, which is the Sonora desert toad medicine is 501 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 2: another one. And psilocybin, which is mushrooms. So these medicines 502 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 2: I am being trained by guides who have been trained 503 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,719 Speaker 2: for decades in serving these sacraments around the world. And 504 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: my entry point into working with plant medicines actually many 505 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 2: many years ago. So I spent time in North America 506 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 2: with some Native American people and an elder in New 507 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: Mexico where I was brought into sort of their family 508 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: and trained for about a year and a half between 509 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 2: Australia and the US in indigenous spirituality and medicine. And 510 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 2: so I started my journey around sort of a shamanic 511 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: approach to life many many years ago and then have 512 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 2: picked it up recently actually after on the day I 513 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 2: sold the company, the public company that night, I traveled 514 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 2: a place and it had a deep dive with Ayahuascar 515 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: and it was a dark night of the souls. It 516 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 2: was the most difficult experience I've ever had in my life. Essentially, 517 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: I described that I journeyed to meet my shadow self 518 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 2: and it was the most horrendous experience I've ever had 519 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: in my life. 520 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: It was terrible. 521 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 2: But really, then when I reflected it later, I went, oh, no, 522 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 2: she kind of got it right. Yep, you know all 523 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 2: of that that came out for me. It is like 524 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: your ego driven, your identity driven, You're disconnected. You know, 525 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 2: there are people you love that you're letting down. You know, 526 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 2: you sometimes tell lies and it's like oh really no, 527 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 2: oh yes, right, okay, yeah, I got it right. And 528 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 2: then I had to clean all that up. And they 529 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 2: say that seven hours of aiahuascar is like seven years 530 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 2: of psychotherapy, and that was very much what it was 531 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 2: for me. And so since then, which was some years back, 532 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 2: I've started to study and be trained and be mentored 533 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: by guides in carrying these medicines so that I can 534 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 2: understand the benefits for people and particularly leaders, in what 535 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 2: psychedelics and these medicines can offer. 536 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: What did you do personally after having that night and 537 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: uncovering these like this shadow side of yourself? How do 538 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: you go about dealing with what you found? 539 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, well, so in the plant medicine world we 540 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: talk about that the peak experience that you have is 541 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: just the peak experience. Actually the work is in the integration. 542 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 2: So it took me maybe six months to integrate everything 543 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: that came out of that journey for me, and that 544 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 2: was really looking at these shadow parts of my personality 545 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 2: and then going into them and often behind them there 546 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 2: was some trauma. So for me, there was sexual abuse 547 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 2: as a teenager that I then had to go into 548 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 2: and I saw how that was playing out in how 549 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 2: I was leading as well. My apprehension and wanting to 550 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 2: act yes when there was an older male in the 551 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 2: room or in the boardroom came from part of my 552 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 2: upbringing and some trauma I had as a young woman, 553 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: and so all of that the plant medicine helped me 554 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 2: just really just get up. And because it's such a 555 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 2: visceral experience that you go through, there's sort of no 556 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: going back from it. So you know you've met yourself, 557 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: You've literally met yourself, and it's not good and so, 558 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 2: and so it was like, Oh, if I do that 559 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 2: behavior now, if I'm doing something out of ego, or 560 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 2: if I'm doing something because it's identity driven, I would 561 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 2: feel sick in the stomach. I go, I can't do 562 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 2: that anymore. And so then I just did. I did 563 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 2: a lot of counseling, a lot of journaling, a lot 564 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 2: of meditation on the things that came out in these journeys. 565 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 2: And I've done that time and time again, and so 566 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 2: really uncovered deep traumas that I just put down inside 567 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 2: my psyche and had ignored. And yeah, so it's not 568 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 2: an easy path, but it's an incredibly powerful path. 569 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: What's been your process for journaling your way through that? 570 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, a big journaling. So I take a journal with 571 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 2: me everywhere. I've got journals all over the place, in 572 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 2: my handbagside my bed, in the car, and so I 573 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 2: would just write down everything that came up for me 574 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: and just really authentically, really honestly, you know, this has 575 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 2: come up for me, or this is a trauma that 576 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 2: I've experienced, I need to write about it. And I 577 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 2: think once you've had these deep visceral experiences in the medicine, 578 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 2: it's very easy to write. It just all flows out. 579 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 2: You've kind of got to get it out of yourself 580 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 2: to get it out. So journaling is an incredibly, incredibly 581 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 2: powerful tool. 582 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: And are you like almost writing like the narrative of 583 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: what you've remembered or are you more writing about what 584 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: are the emotions it's bringing up? Like what are you 585 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: actually writing? 586 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 2: Yeah? Good, good question. So I would write initially the narrative, 587 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 2: then I did this, and then I journeyed here, and 588 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 2: then I saw this, and then I experienced this, and 589 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 2: then that person appeared. So I do the narrative or 590 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: my voice recorded, and then I'll pull out and that 591 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 2: and go, okay, so this one was about this trauma 592 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,720 Speaker 2: that I had, and here are the feelings that I had. Okay, 593 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 2: So I now need to go and sit and meditate, 594 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 2: go back into that feeling and try and clear that 595 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 2: feeling that I have out of it. So I would 596 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: then yet kind of analyze it and go through until 597 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 2: I've really kind of nailed it, and then if I 598 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 2: felt that I needed some therapy, I would go and 599 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 2: do that. And I've got a couple of great counselors 600 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 2: who are normal psychological counselors. And then deal with people 601 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 2: who've had peak experiences. 602 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: That sounds like an amazing process for people that are 603 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: interested in learning more where you might have picked their curiosity, 604 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: what like, where's a good place to start? 605 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this now because we're in what was what's 606 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 2: called the psychedelic Renaissance, so we're seeing their arise of 607 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 2: any interest in psychedelics all over the world. So all 608 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 2: of the big podcast is so Sam Harris, Tim Ferriss 609 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 2: or Remarcus, these guys, Joe wrote and all of these 610 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 2: guys will be talking about it and they're really good 611 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 2: reference points. There's also Mind Medicine Australia, which is a 612 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 2: not for profit which is particularly focused on the use 613 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 2: of psilocybin and MDMA for therapy, and so they'll have 614 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 2: also great resources. But because it's these substances or sacraments 615 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 2: are legal in Australia, it is very difficult to have 616 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 2: any any real conversational access to things here. But certainly 617 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 2: in Peru, so in any of the Amazon Peru, Brazil, 618 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 2: some parts of North America, the Mexico, there's a lot 619 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 2: of these practices are done there. 620 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: Okay. And finally, Kat for people that want a connect 621 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: with you and the work you are doing. What is 622 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 1: the best way for people to get in touch? 623 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm really good on LinkedIn, in any of 624 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 2: the social media channels. I'm like up there all the 625 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 2: time on all of them. So, and it's normally just 626 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 2: Katrina and Katrina spelled c at rio na, so it's 627 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 2: the Gaelic spelling of Katrina and Wallace. So I'm across everything. 628 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 2: So social media is really good for me, and I'm 629 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 2: super interested. Now my whole attention is being turned to 630 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 2: the metaverse and responsible metaverse, so particularly anyone who's interested 631 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 2: in Web three and the metaverse technologies, and for me, 632 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 2: it's how do we build a responsible and a safe 633 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 2: metaverse for women and the vulnerable. I'd love to hear 634 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 2: from you. 635 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: I always feel so energized and inspired whenever I talk 636 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: to Cat, even if I happen to be recording it 637 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: for a podcast. What particularly stood out to me in 638 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: this chat was the empathy that Cat's spoke about in 639 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: relation to the blatant and quite extreme sexism she received 640 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: as a woman leading a tech company. Thankfully, I've not 641 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: been subjected to anywhere near as much sexism as Cat, 642 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: but I am definitely going to bring more empathy to 643 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: those situations when they do inevitably happen. How I Work 644 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. 645 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank 646 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: you to Matt Nimba who does the audio mix for 647 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 1: every episode and makes everything sound so much better than 648 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: it would have otherwise. See you next time.