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Speaker 1: The world is saying enough, big tech is under fire.

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Speaker 1: That's today's podcast. We're doing a mash up of this

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Speaker 1: Week in Parenting and The Doctor's Desk, which somewhat excites

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Speaker 1: Kylie because the Doctor's Desk is not normally her favorite. Hello,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Happy Family's podcast. Right after the break,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be highlighting how big tech companies are

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Speaker 1: being taken to court by so many people over in

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Speaker 1: the US and what that could possibly mean in terms

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Speaker 1: of how our families function and how our children thrive. Then,

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Speaker 1: the line in the sand that's been drawn by Australia

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Speaker 1: seems to be becoming extended by other nations. We'll talk

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Speaker 1: about what has happened as the world has watched Australia's

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Speaker 1: minimum age social media legislation. That and a whole lot

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Speaker 1: more in today's podcast. Stay with us. Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to The Happy Family's podcast, where you get real parenting

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Speaker 1: solutions every single day. This is Australia's most downloaded parenting

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Speaker 1: podcast where Justin and Kylie Colson were the parents of

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Speaker 1: six kids on the author of a bunch of books,

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Speaker 1: I've Got a TV show and the most download podcast

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Speaker 1: here in oz Hey Kylie, I feel as though we

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Speaker 1: do a lot of podcasts related to screens. Feels to

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Speaker 1: me as though parenting is really about screens. In twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six, we're not really talking about parenting as much

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Speaker 1: as how do we deal with kids? Because screens have

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Speaker 1: taken over.

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Speaker 2: That's definitely our experience.

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Speaker 1: Give a child a screen and watch their relationship with

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Speaker 1: you and everything else in the world completely change. It

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Speaker 1: becomes the center of the universe. Today, We're going to

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Speaker 1: move through a fair bit of material and do it

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Speaker 1: fairly quickly. Kylie, I'd like you to guide it if

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Speaker 1: you can. We've got some lawsuits happening in the US

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Speaker 1: where the big tech companies a run to fire, and

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Speaker 1: we've got countries right around the world who've been watching

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Speaker 1: what we're doing and deciding that looks all right, Maybe

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Speaker 1: we should do that too.

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Speaker 3: Mata, the parent company at Facebook and Instagram and Alphabet's YouTube,

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Speaker 3: are defending themselves in a landmark civil suit that accuses

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Speaker 3: them of purpose designing their products to cause addiction in children.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious, what are these lawsuits about.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So in the United States right now, quite a

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Speaker 1: wave of lawsuits are going to be rolling out throughout

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Speaker 1: the year. The first one just started in the last

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks. Essentially, you've got a whole bunch of people,

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Speaker 1: some states, also some school districts who are accusing social media,

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Speaker 1: big tech platforms of causing addiction in teenagers. So these

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Speaker 1: are test cases, and they're basically trying to prove that.

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Speaker 2: When you say test case, what do you mean?

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Speaker 1: So test cases? Essentially, there hasn't been any previous lawsuits

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Speaker 1: around this, there's no precedent, so they're trying to find

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Speaker 1: something where they think we could potentially win this and

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Speaker 1: this can set the precedent for future law cases, future trials,

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Speaker 1: future suing opportunities, future civil actions, all those kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: If these go through like this will totally turn the

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Speaker 2: world upside down in so many ways.

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Speaker 1: Potentially, I hope so. But they have got a fight

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Speaker 1: on their hands, not just because the big tech companies

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Speaker 1: can afford the most expensive lawyers on the planet, but

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Speaker 1: because the things that they're arguing and the things that

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Speaker 1: they're doing in their efforts to sue the big tech

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Speaker 1: companies are going to be very hard to prove.

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Speaker 2: So you've suggested that there are multiple cases going to

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Speaker 2: court at this point, what are people suing social media

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Speaker 2: companies for.

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Speaker 1: They're not all of the schedule. The first one has

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Speaker 1: just kicked off, so there'll be a number of additional

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Speaker 1: cases throughout the year. But the first one is somebody

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Speaker 1: who is simply known by their initials KJAM, twenty years old,

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Speaker 1: saying that they are addicted to technology as a child

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Speaker 1: and now have mental health problems. So, in this particular case,

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Speaker 1: which is the only one we can talk about because

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Speaker 1: the other ones haven't got a call yet, in this

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Speaker 1: particular case, what they're basically saying is tech companies have

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Speaker 1: intentionally developed platforms using persuasive design elements like endless scroll

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Speaker 1: and the like button and everything that keeps you coming back.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you and I and everyone else who uses

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Speaker 1: social media knows what they are because they hook us,

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Speaker 1: and the algorithm knows us so well. The algorithm is

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Speaker 1: a huge part of this. And fundamentally, the big tech

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Speaker 1: companies have prioritized engagement over wellbeing. They've known what they're doing,

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Speaker 1: they've known that wellbeing is suffering, and they have ignored that.

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Speaker 1: They've said, no, no, we want to engage these people.

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Speaker 1: We want to addict them, we want to keep them

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Speaker 1: here and therefore mental health problems have resulted there. So

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Speaker 1: essentially they're saying the ABC's of this case, this is

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Speaker 1: literally what the lawyer has said, the abcs of this

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Speaker 1: case that the big tech companies are addicting the brains

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Speaker 1: of children. ABC addicting brains of children. That's pretty much

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Speaker 1: their argument.

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Speaker 2: So if this case actually wins, the ramifications for social

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Speaker 2: media companies would be enormous because there would.

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Speaker 1: Be a lot of people who would say, my pain.

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Speaker 2: I can't even begin to imagine how many people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my mental health problem are a result of my

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Speaker 1: social media use, and now I can sue Meta as

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Speaker 1: well or TikTok as well.

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Speaker 2: Like we literally we have friends within our social circle

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Speaker 2: who are dealing with this in such extreme ways. The children.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a lawyer, but I know a lot about

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Speaker 1: social media and the research around the psychology and well

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Speaker 1: being about young people. The challenge here is the burden

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Speaker 1: of proof. How do you prove that it was social media?

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Speaker 1: How do you prove that it was the persuasive design elements.

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Speaker 1: How do you prove that it was intentional and inappropriate

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Speaker 1: behavior by the social media platforms that has created the

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Speaker 1: mental health problem that you're dealing with. That's going to

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Speaker 1: be the challenge. And of course, the whole justice system

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Speaker 1: is you're innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, the burden of

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Speaker 1: proof is on the person who says that they are aggrieved.

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Speaker 1: They are the plaintiff in this case.

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Speaker 2: So in this case, how will lawyers defend it?

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Speaker 1: I think that they're going to do three things, and

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Speaker 1: I have put a lot of thought into this. If

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Speaker 1: I was the lawyer for a big tech company, this

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Speaker 1: is what I'd be saying. Number one, I would be

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Speaker 1: the legitimacy of quote unquote social media addiction. Addiction generally speaking,

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Speaker 1: is a contested and challenging term in psychological literature anyway,

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Speaker 1: and without getting into the weeds too much, I just

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Speaker 1: think that it's going to be really hard to say

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Speaker 1: somebody has been addicted to our platform. In fact, Instagram

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Speaker 1: CEO a couple of weeks ago was in court and

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Speaker 1: literally saying I don't believe in such a thing as

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Speaker 1: social media addiction and social media addiction, like I said,

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Speaker 1: massively contested. We know that. In one of my books,

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Speaker 1: in Ten Things Every Parent Needs to Know, I talked

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Speaker 1: about compulsive Internet use, which is a way of very

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Speaker 1: softly saying your children are addicted without using the word addicted,

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Speaker 1: because addicted is such a provocative and it's just one

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Speaker 1: of those terms when if you bring it up to

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Speaker 1: a psychologist, all of a sudden, the flashbulbs start going

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Speaker 1: after and says, well, is it really addiction, because as

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Speaker 1: their tolerance and is their withdrawal and what's been going

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Speaker 1: Addiction is a really really challenging term to use, and

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Speaker 1: there is simply not enough data. There is no such

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Speaker 1: thing as a diagnosis of social media addiction. So that

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Speaker 1: will be the first thing that I'll argue. They're not addicted.

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Speaker 1: They might be using it a lot, but they're not

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Speaker 1: addicted because you can't be addicted to social media. The

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Speaker 1: second thing that I think they're going to argue is

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Speaker 1: that we've got a whole lot of safety features. We've

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Speaker 1: been implementing safety features from day one, and over the

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Speaker 1: last few years we've gotten better and better and better

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Speaker 1: at this. I would argue that's disingenuous. I do not

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Speaker 1: believe that the safety features that they've got are easy

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Speaker 1: to find, easy to activate, nor were they in They

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Speaker 1: weren't available in the early days of social media. But

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Speaker 1: they will argue that that's a feature. And the third

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Speaker 1: thing is they're going to say, prove that the harm

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Speaker 1: that you've experienced that the social media landscape is what

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Speaker 1: caused what caused your mental health challenges. And that's going

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Speaker 1: to be extremely hard to prove because mental health challenges

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Speaker 1: are so multifaceted. It has to do with your peer

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Speaker 1: group and your family and you and sleep and exercise

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Speaker 1: and medical wellbeing. It there are so many factors that

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Speaker 1: go into it. Oh, there's one other thing that I

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Speaker 1: just remembered as well. There's something called Section two thirty.

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Speaker 1: Section two thirty is a law in the United States.

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Speaker 1: So you don't want to put everyone to sleep, So

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Speaker 1: I'll say this really fast. The law in the United

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Speaker 1: States basically says that the social media platforms are not

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Speaker 1: responsible for what people post on the platforms. In the

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Speaker 1: early days, when people started posting stuff, social media companies went, oh,

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Speaker 1: my goodness, this could be challenging for us if we

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Speaker 1: are held liable for what people post, we do not

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Speaker 1: have a product, and so they lobbied and got the

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Speaker 1: government to pass Section two thirty, which fundamentally means people

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Speaker 1: can post whatever they like. Social media companies aren't responsible

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Speaker 1: for what's on their pages. That is also probably going

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Speaker 1: to be used as a way of defending the social

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Speaker 1: media companies, because they can say, well, you've been using

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Speaker 1: our platform, but we're not responsible for what people posted,

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Speaker 1: and if the content on there is keeping you coming

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Speaker 1: back and is addictive, that's not our fault. We can't

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Speaker 1: help the people are posting such awesome stuff in spite

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Speaker 1: of the overm So after the break, after the break,

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Speaker 1: because we did need a technic break, I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about my overall take on what this is. And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll have some questions and comments about it

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Speaker 1: as well. And I do want to talk about what's

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Speaker 1: happening globally and bring that second story in because this

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Speaker 1: social media challenge is not going away and his parents,

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Speaker 1: it's really important that we know what's going on here.

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Speaker 1: That's next on the Happy Families podcast. We're back. It's

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Speaker 1: the Happy Family's podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

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Speaker 1: If you enjoy the pod, if it teaches you stuff,

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Speaker 1: if it helps to make your family happier, we please

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Speaker 1: share it with a friend. Just click the share button

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Speaker 1: and send it on to somebody either that'll leave a

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Speaker 1: five star rating and review those kinds of things make

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Speaker 1: a difference in getting the podcast out there and helping

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Speaker 1: more people to find out about it and make their

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Speaker 1: families happier.

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Speaker 2: So what's your take on this? It feels like there

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Speaker 2: is not just a mountain, a mountain range that has

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Speaker 2: to be crossed, right, Yeah, for this to go anywhere.

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Speaker 1: This is the neverest. I feel like Judge Judy right now.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm sitting there at the I'm wearing

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Speaker 1: my black robe and I've got my hammer. I'm about

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Speaker 1: to say order, order, and I don't know. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, but with what I do know, here's what

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Speaker 1: I would say. Number One, it's hard to argue that

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Speaker 1: social media has not caused harm. I believe that it

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Speaker 1: has not to all teenagers, but certainly too many. And

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Speaker 1: the social media company's own research shows that it has happened,

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Speaker 1: that it is happening, that it continues to happen, And

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Speaker 1: it would be breathtakingly disingenuous, mendacious, dishonest for them to

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Speaker 1: say otherwise, but you know what they will, because they

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Speaker 1: are mendacious, and they are dishonest, and they are disingenuous,

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Speaker 1: And I've got no belief in their integrity whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: I remember experience that you and I had early on

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Speaker 2: in our marriage, and when it came to a verdict

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Speaker 2: being called, the acknowledgment was that, well, the other party

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Speaker 2: had acted immoraly, they had not acted unlawfully.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So this is going back a long time

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Speaker 1: when we ended up in court for some reasons, when

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Speaker 1: I decided that I could win a court case against

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Speaker 1: a previous employer, and it just all it did was

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Speaker 1: chewed up our lives for a year and it was miserable.

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Speaker 1: But this, and it's not about morality.

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Speaker 2: This to me feels like it's exactly the same thing.

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Speaker 2: They know exactly what they're doing, but they've created the

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Speaker 2: safety net within the law to protect them in spite

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Speaker 2: of the fact that it's in a morally corrupt enterprise

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Speaker 2: like it just, I can't see how you can win.

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Speaker 1: This is going to be a really big challenge. So

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Speaker 1: they will argue hard against that, even though it does.

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Speaker 1: You talked about it the legal landscape, and I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: of all the caves.

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Speaker 2: Have already passed a law.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all the caves that they can hide in, exactly right,

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Speaker 1: all the coves that protect them from the wind, and

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Speaker 1: the storm and that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: I also hide behind this big shield of financial security

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Speaker 2: that buys them whatever they need.

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Speaker 1: Buy them all the protection they need. Yeah, the technicalities

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Speaker 1: are also going to be really hard to overcome here, compulsive, intentional, addictive, harmful,

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Speaker 1: it is. I think that it's pretty clear that they're

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Speaker 1: prioritized engagement over safety. I also think it's clear that

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Speaker 1: they've done too little, too late. But this is going

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Speaker 1: to be tricky, and like I said before, mental health

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Speaker 1: it's so multifaceted. It's so complex to be able to

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Speaker 1: say I have my mental health challenges. They exist because

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Speaker 1: of what you've done on your platform. That's a really,

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Speaker 1: really big hard thing to prove, so big lawyers Section

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Speaker 1: two thirty. I'm not hopeful. I'm genuinely not hopeful. I

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Speaker 1: wish I was. I wish I could say this is

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Speaker 1: the start of something new. There's going to be a

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Speaker 1: whole new world. I don't like the chances that this

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Speaker 1: stuff will get up. And I have to add, if

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Speaker 1: the small person here wins against the goliath of the

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Speaker 1: big tech companies, the big tech companies will appeal, it

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Speaker 1: will go to a higher court. This stuff will drag

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Speaker 1: on four years. We are not going to get quick

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Speaker 1: resolutions if.

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Speaker 2: She didn't have any mental health challenges before the case.

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Speaker 2: By the time she gets through the other end of it,

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Speaker 2: it's big challenges. It's going to be intense, taxing. But

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Speaker 2: now I think we've only got a few minutes left.

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Speaker 2: And I am curious. You made a prediction at the

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Speaker 2: beginning of the year in relation to the social media

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Speaker 2: minimum age legislation that was recently passed here in Australia,

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Speaker 2: and that you believed it would start to have a

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Speaker 2: flow on effect around the.

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Speaker 1: World proliferation was my prediction. And where are we at.

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Speaker 2: You've got an update.

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Speaker 1: The world is paying attention to Australia, which is what

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Speaker 1: I said. People are watching so right now. Indonesia is

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Speaker 1: looking at passing some legislation fairly soon. France has also

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Speaker 1: signed on they're going to make it fifteen. There are

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Speaker 1: some cultural reasons that it's fifteen in France. Sixteen is

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Speaker 1: still a better age, but they're going to go with fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Fifteen is better than twelve, twelve or thirteen. Also, Spain

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Speaker 1: and the Netherlands are debating legislation at the moment and

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Speaker 1: trying to draft the right legislation to get that through

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Speaker 1: their parliament. And I saw a news article in the

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Speaker 1: last week indicating that the United States of America is

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Speaker 1: saying that they're going to look at it. Now. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what that means, and I've got very very

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Speaker 1: low of hopes. However, the tide is turning, and I

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Speaker 1: do want to read something to you that showed up

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Speaker 1: on Jonathan Heit's blog after Babel. He was sharing something

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Speaker 1: in relation to why this line in the sand moment

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Speaker 1: has happened, and he says this. He says the cognitive

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Speaker 1: psychologist Stephen Pinker explains what's happening. His most recent book,

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Speaker 1: When Everyone Knows That Everyone Knows, Common Knowledge and the

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Speaker 1: Mysteries of Money, Power and Everyday Life explores the massive

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Speaker 1: social change that can occur when widespread private knowledge suddenly

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Speaker 1: becomes public knowledge. For example, many people may privately know

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Speaker 1: that a dictator is brutal, that an ideology is bankrupt,

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Speaker 1: yet nothing changes for many years until something happens that

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Speaker 1: lets everyone know that everyone else knows it too, and

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Speaker 1: that everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone knows. Once

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Speaker 1: that threshold has crossed, new forms of coordination become possible.

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Speaker 1: Social movements ignite regimes and walls fall. Norms can change

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Speaker 1: almost overnight. Hands Christian Anderson captured the same dynamic in

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Speaker 1: his famous story The Emperor's New Clothes. The Emperor was

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Speaker 1: and everyone could see it, but no one knew if

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Speaker 1: others saw it too, because the swindlers had spread the

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Speaker 1: idea that only the wires could see the cloth. It

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Speaker 1: took a child's cry the Emperor has no clothes to

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Speaker 1: convert private knowledge into public knowledge. What the child said

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Speaker 1: was whispered from one to another until the crowd finally

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Speaker 1: cried out together. This, says Jonathan Hyight, is what happened

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Speaker 1: among leaders around the world in the month after Australia's

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Speaker 1: age limit went into effect. In other words, everyone's always known, well,

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Speaker 1: for years, we've known this is not good for our kids,

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Speaker 1: but everybody hasn't known that everybody else knows. But now

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Speaker 1: that everybody knows that everybody knows, we can say everybody knows,

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Speaker 1: and therefore the change is sweeping the globe.

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Speaker 2: So it just feels like to me, there's this reassurance

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Speaker 2: that the power of one voice can actually make a difference.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty wild. It's pretty wild. So let's just wrap

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Speaker 1: this up with take home message. To take home message

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Speaker 1: is pretty clear. When your children are engaging with screens,

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Speaker 1: they're missing out on life. When your children engaging with screens,

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Speaker 1: their risk of mental health challenges is increasing, the risk

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Speaker 1: of obesity is increasing. Their risk of losing out on

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Speaker 1: sleep is increasing. Their risk of social difficulties is increasing.

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Speaker 1: The risk of anything good happening in their lives is

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Speaker 1: decreasing because life happens analog not digital. Far more, parenting

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Speaker 1: should be analog as well, not digital. That's the take

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Speaker 1: home message for today. Thanks so much for listening to

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast Doctor's Desk this week in parenting

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Speaker 1: mash Up, We'll be back tomorrow with Older Better Tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: where we unpack the week that was, Oh, some pretty

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Speaker 1: cool stuff. We've got to tell you tomorrow about what's

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Speaker 1: worked and what hasn't this week. The Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 1: is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media, with additional

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Speaker 1: support from Mim Hammond's. More information and resources about making

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Speaker 1: your family happier is available at happy families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au, including our ADHD course for families with neurodiverging

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Speaker 1: kids that just want to be happier MHM