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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what's so much happening politically this morning.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the Liberal Party deciding who their new leader

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Speaker 1: was going to be, Susan Lee taking that role. We

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Speaker 1: also know that the Prime Minister's obviously got his new

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Speaker 1: cabinet being sworn in and the Northern Territory budget's being

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Speaker 1: handed down. It's like graham Final day for nerds and

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Speaker 1: political nerds like us, and Matt Cunningham joins me on

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Speaker 1: the line.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Matt, morning wilf be.

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Speaker 1: Maybe not as exciting as watching the footy final being

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Speaker 1: in the lock up for Northern Territory budget.

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Speaker 2: I got two things on today. In the second one

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Speaker 2: is the AFL president. I hate to say it, but

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Speaker 2: I'm a little bit more excited about one than the other.

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Speaker 2: With no offense to the Treasurer.

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Speaker 1: Well, Matt, we can't blame you mate, the Northern Territory budget.

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Speaker 1: You've been in the lock up for the last couple

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Speaker 1: of hours. We know Bill Yan has just deliberty speech

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Speaker 1: talk us through some of the you know, the real

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Speaker 1: take ons today.

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Speaker 2: He's still going as we speak. But if you want

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Speaker 2: the headline, you look net debt is it's hit almost

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Speaker 2: eleven billion dollars, and it's going to blow out to

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Speaker 2: just a fraction shi of fourteen billion dollars over the

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Speaker 2: forward estimates. Woofing. Now, let's try to put that into

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Speaker 2: a bit of perspective. That means that by twenty twenty eight,

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Speaker 2: twenty nine, our death will be fifty two thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: per head of population. I haven't checked the other states yet,

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Speaker 2: but I think Victoria is the next worst, and I

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Speaker 2: think it's about thirty thousand per head of population. So

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Speaker 2: that gives you an idea of the mess that we're in.

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Speaker 2: Fifty two thousand dollars per head of population by twenty

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Speaker 2: eight twenty nine, it's about forty seven thousand per head

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Speaker 2: of population. At the moment, it is an astronomical number.

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Speaker 2: By twenty twenty eight nine, we're going to be paying

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Speaker 2: nine hundred and eleven million dollars interest per year on

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Speaker 2: that debt, and that equals about two point five million

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Speaker 2: dollars per day. That's just the interesting line on the

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Speaker 2: debt that that is the number. Well, it is insane,

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Speaker 2: and it's the number that's increased from about so that

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Speaker 2: fourteen billion dollars. If we look at that by twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty eight twenty nine is a number that's increased from

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Speaker 2: about two billion dollars in twenty sixteen. So over over

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Speaker 2: a twelve year period, we would say our net debt

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Speaker 2: will have gone up sevenfold, which is fairly extraordinary. And

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Speaker 2: I know we've had the pandemic during that period, but

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Speaker 2: the pandemic, perhaps can you answer for a small fraction

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Speaker 2: of that increasing debt? That is a number that is

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Speaker 2: just unsustainable.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of mobelievable. Like you know, it's hard to

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Speaker 1: put into normal terms for an everyday person.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it. It certainly is. I think one thing we

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Speaker 2: can say, we can you know, any homeowner, anyone who's

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Speaker 2: got a mortgage, has spent the last couple of years

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Speaker 2: hoping like hell that interest rates will come down. I

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Speaker 2: think we're here here in the Northern Territory need to hope,

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Speaker 2: like how that interest rates come down and that our

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Speaker 2: credit rating doesn't get worse or the situation is probably

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Speaker 2: going to be worse again that there is. It's interesting

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Speaker 2: in the in the Treasure of speech, and I reckon

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Speaker 2: this is a real issue as well. He's outlined some

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Speaker 2: of the costs blowout for major projects. We know about

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Speaker 2: the Tiger brewn and Drive overpass. We talk about that

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Speaker 2: all the time, So that jumped sixty one point five

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Speaker 2: million dollars. That was the original budget. The final cost

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Speaker 2: was one hundred and sixty point nine million dollars, so

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Speaker 2: a ninety nine point four million dollar blowout on that

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Speaker 2: one piece of road infrastructure, that one overpass. If you

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Speaker 2: look at the State Square Art Gallery, the original budget

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Speaker 2: forty seven million dollars. The final cost is going to

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Speaker 2: be one hundred and forty three million dollars, so that's

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Speaker 2: a ninety six million dollar blowout. The Youth Justice Center

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Speaker 2: had a budget of fifty million, the final cost one

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Speaker 2: hundred and thirty five point two so an eighty five

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Speaker 2: point two million dollar increase. Skipving through a few years

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Speaker 2: as there are others, but the Matta and Greta Police

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Speaker 2: Station was sixty million, ended up costing thirty seven point

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Speaker 2: four sot out, twenty one point four million dollar blowout.

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Speaker 2: And the John Stoke Square and Nightcliff Police Station project,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is one of my favorite coffee grew

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Speaker 2: from forty five million dollars which was the budget, to

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Speaker 2: sixty three point three million dollars and eighteen point three

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Speaker 2: million dollar budget blowout for a police station that's not

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Speaker 2: even open.

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Speaker 1: Well, and you'd actually done a story last week. I

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Speaker 1: belie if we're there was people trying to buzz to

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Speaker 1: get into that police station or to notify people in

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Speaker 1: that police station of something that was going on in

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Speaker 1: Nightcliffe and weren't even able to get somebody to come out.

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Speaker 1: So I think the fact that its cost tax pays

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Speaker 1: that much money and for a lot of everyday people

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Speaker 1: maybe wanting to try and contact police inside that building

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Speaker 1: unable to It feels like it's a wide elephant.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's worse than that, because it's now it's counterproductive

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Speaker 2: because people are going there thinking they're going to get

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Speaker 2: help and there's an intercom system on the wall. They

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Speaker 2: used to shut the roller door at four o'clock and

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Speaker 2: then you know, we started giving them grief. This was

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Speaker 2: under the former government about the fact that roller door

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Speaker 2: used to come down at four o'clock in the afternoon,

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Speaker 2: and so now there's a sign there that says don't

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Speaker 2: shut the roller door except in a cyclone. But the

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Speaker 2: police stations as shut as it ever was. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's only over between eight o'clock and four o'clock So

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Speaker 2: last Wednesday I was there. It was the day of

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Speaker 2: linchol Fike's funeral and I was doing my piece to

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Speaker 2: Cambridge there at about six point thirty that night, making

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Speaker 2: the point about the police station not being open. And

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Speaker 2: there's a couple there and they go up. There's an

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Speaker 2: intercombuton on the front of the police station and they

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Speaker 2: go up and press it and they're trying to get

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Speaker 2: help from the police. And they press that into Coombuton

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Speaker 2: that says press for assistance, and all you hear is

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Speaker 2: that intercom button ring for more than ten minutes, Like seriously,

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Speaker 2: ran for more than ten minutes before they gave up

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Speaker 2: and they went somewhere else and they were actually asking

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Speaker 2: They didn't want to speak on camera, but they were

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Speaker 2: asking me what's going on. They were actually for me

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Speaker 2: to state and they were trying to find a police

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Speaker 2: station to get some help. And in the end I

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Speaker 2: had to tell them to go to Casarina. But there's

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Speaker 2: no sign at what looks like a police station, but

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Speaker 2: in the words of the Chief Minister, is just a

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Speaker 2: glorified office building and the biggest joke in town. There's

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Speaker 2: no sign there that says this is not a police station.

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Speaker 2: There's no sign there that says, if you need urgent

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Speaker 2: help from the police, call triple zero. There's an intercom

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Speaker 2: there that says press for assistance, but when you press

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Speaker 2: the button and ask for assistance, you don't get any

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Speaker 2: You did hear a ring and a ring and a

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Speaker 2: ring and a ring?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then I mean then when you're stupid, it

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Speaker 1: certainly is. And then when you hear that that whole

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Speaker 1: project has blown out by eighty eight point three million dollars.

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Speaker 2: Three point three million.

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Speaker 1: Dollars, Yeah, like if it wasn't so serious, it would

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Speaker 1: be laughable. But it's actually it's not monopoly money, like

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Speaker 1: this is the thing.

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Speaker 2: It's real money. Yeah, that's that's right. No one, No

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Speaker 2: one thinks that it used to be funny. It's not

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Speaker 2: funny anything.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: And I'm you know, I wouldn't want to speak to

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Speaker 2: linfan Fikes family, but I don't think many business owners

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Speaker 2: in that precing I think it's funny.

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Speaker 1: No, well, they met, they were messaging last week. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they were messaging last week. I mean following on from

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Speaker 1: groups of young people. Then you know, allegedly armed with knives,

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Speaker 1: another one hitting cars with a metal pole like it's

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Speaker 1: beyond the joke. But I'm taking you, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: leading you astray there, mad I suppose in terms of

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Speaker 1: our discussion, because today is indeed all about budget and

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Speaker 1: it looks like we are, you know, we're further into

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Speaker 1: that record level of debt, but we also have a

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Speaker 1: bit of a background I guess as to what's led

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Speaker 1: to some of that debt. But Matt, is there much

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Speaker 1: planned from the current government as to how they're going

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Speaker 1: to rain that in?

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Speaker 2: Well, I have a few questions about that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there is one one sort of headline act in that point,

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Speaker 2: and it says that agencies have been directed to find

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Speaker 2: twenty million dollars per year across government in operating savings

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Speaker 2: focused on reducing consultancies, travel, communications and marketing and other

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Speaker 2: discretionary spending, which I think most people will think is

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Speaker 2: a good thing. I mean, why we need when we

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Speaker 2: have twenty two and a half twenty three thousand public

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Speaker 2: servants in the Northern Territory, why we need to dish

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Speaker 2: out so many consultants so much work to consultants is

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Speaker 2: beyond me. So I think most people would welcome that.

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Speaker 2: But that's only twenty million dollars per year. That's a

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Speaker 2: drop in the ocean compared to the level of debt.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at that debt being by

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty eight, twenty nine, nine hundred and eleven million

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Speaker 2: dollars per year, that's only you know, a fraction of

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Speaker 2: the interest that's going to be covered through saving yep.

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Speaker 2: So that's one of the cost saving measures that is

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Speaker 2: in there. There's no real detail of any cups if

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Speaker 2: you like. I mean the other issue that's a worry,

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Speaker 2: and you would have spoken about this on Monday, I'm sure,

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Speaker 2: is the shift shipment. So that's one hundred million dollar

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Speaker 2: project that's blown out I think more than four hundred

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Speaker 2: million dollars, and he's going to blow out more. We

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Speaker 2: just don't know how much it's going to cost, but

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Speaker 2: it's going to cost significantly more than the original budget.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's a huge blowout. I did ask Selena

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Speaker 1: Rubo about this a little earlier in the morning when

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Speaker 1: she was on the show, and she'd said, you know,

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Speaker 1: the one hundred million dollar figure that had initially been

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Speaker 1: flagged was never it was never going to be delivered

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Speaker 1: at that cost. And I get that, but then it

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Speaker 1: went from three hundred to five hundred and something. I

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Speaker 1: know that in Cans they're delivering their project. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure if it's you know, of the same scale or different,

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Speaker 1: but it's blown out to more than eight hundred million

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Speaker 1: dollars I think rightly. So there needs to be questions

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Speaker 1: as to why on Earth projects are blowing out, you know,

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Speaker 1: to the tune that they are. And there, you know,

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Speaker 1: there doesn't seem to be any kind of need to

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Speaker 1: stay on what's been tendered or you know, to stay

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Speaker 1: on track with that spending. And I get that there's

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Speaker 1: going to be variations, but when you're talking about variations

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Speaker 1: in the millions upon millions of dollars, it's wild.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely it is. I mean you and I were

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Speaker 2: both at the Darwen Major Business Groups events a few

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Speaker 2: weeks ago before the federal election woe, when some of

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Speaker 2: this stuff was spoken about. I think there's two things.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we heard at that event about the need

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Speaker 2: for revenue generating infrastructure, and I think we do need

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Speaker 2: to look at infrastructure projects and determine whether they are

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Speaker 2: going to get revenue or not. Now you would argue

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Speaker 2: that the ship ship lift is a revenue generating project,

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Speaker 2: but I think the other thing we need to look

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Speaker 2: at is the point that you raise there. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's a fastiple situation when something like the Tiger Brewnan

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Speaker 2: drive overpass can go out to tender and can be

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Speaker 2: awarded for sixty million dollars and then come back at

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Speaker 2: a cost of one hundred and sixty million dollars, and

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Speaker 2: so I think there has to be there probably has

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Speaker 2: to be a little bit of accountability on both sides

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Speaker 2: of that. There has to be accountability from both the tenderer.

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Speaker 2: I think there needs to be some more realistic tendering

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Speaker 2: that is done so that you know, we get a

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Speaker 2: realistic estimate of what the cost is going to be.

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Speaker 2: And then from the other side of things, from the

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Speaker 2: department side of things, they have to be more realistic

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Speaker 2: about the cost of these things up front. And then

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Speaker 2: I don't know whether there needs to be a situation

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Speaker 2: where it's almost like a fixed price contract or whether

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Speaker 2: there's only a variation of x percent out because to

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Speaker 2: have these sorts of blowouts you're having having projects blowout,

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Speaker 2: you know, by one hundred two hundred percent of the cost. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's just an unsustainable situation.

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Speaker 1: Well, look if you're building your house, Matt, and it

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Speaker 1: blew out two hundred percent. We wouldn't I wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: able to keep building it.

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Speaker 2: Strife, wouldn't you?

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Speaker 1: You'd go bankrupt. Yeah, look, there definitely needs to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, some more accountability. I think in that space, Matt,

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Speaker 1: anything else we should be aware of before I let

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Speaker 1: you go this morning when it comes to this Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory budget.

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Speaker 2: Oh look, I'm just you know, going through bit by bit. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you one other thing that piqued my interest.

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Speaker 2: And I think we know that the government's talking about

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Speaker 2: what are there three pillars? It's like reduced crime, rebuild

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Speaker 2: the economy, and restore the territory lifestyle. I was a

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Speaker 2: little bit amused in the in the Treasure of speech

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Speaker 2: to see under one of the head restoring the territory lifestyle,

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Speaker 2: it was new upgrades at Alice Springs Correctional Center and

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Speaker 2: you justice facilities. Now, I don't know whether they're planning

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Speaker 2: to turn that into a tourist attraction, will kit, But

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Speaker 2: that doesn't speak to restoring the territory lifestyle. I think

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Speaker 2: they've got a little bit of work to do in

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Speaker 2: that space. Yeah, and I think people will give them

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Speaker 2: some grace, and I think people will say, yes, please

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Speaker 2: go out and fix the crime issue. We know how

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Speaker 2: bad that you. Please restore the economy. We know it's

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Speaker 2: been in the doulgence for a long time, and there

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Speaker 2: are perhaps some indications that things are improving on that front,

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Speaker 2: but we haven't heard a hall of a lot from

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Speaker 2: them on the lifestyle piece at this stage. And if

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Speaker 2: one of your subheadings for restoring the territory's lifestyle is

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Speaker 2: upgrades to the Alice Springs Correctional Center and you justice facilities,

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Speaker 2: then I think you've got to be a work to

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Speaker 2: do in that space.

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Speaker 1: I agree, Matt. What did you make of the treasury

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Speaker 1: going away still for the Barough Classic last week? I

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Speaker 1: know that a lot of listeners were going, do you

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Speaker 1: know what you can do? Both? At least he's still

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Speaker 1: volunteering at events. But I guess the opposition was very

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Speaker 1: you know, they very much were sort of saying, how

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Speaker 1: can you reel in the budget while you're out there

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Speaker 1: reeling in Barrah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think it was a great look, to

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Speaker 2: be honest with Katie. I mean, we're that and I've

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Speaker 2: spoken to people who work in politics again in politics.

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Speaker 2: He say basically, by that stage, you know it's all

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Speaker 2: done anyway, blah blah blah blah blah. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I would say that the Treasury staff weren't out there

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Speaker 2: fishing last week, and so I would say that probably

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Speaker 2: the treasure shouldn't have been either. I don't think it

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Speaker 2: was a great look under the circumstances.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. Well, Matt Cunningham from Sky News, good

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Speaker 1: to catch up. Thank you very much for talking us

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Speaker 1: through the Northern Territory budget. Thanks Katie, Thanks mate,