Speaker 1: In the Internet era, there's an infinite number of opportunities, information, activities,
Speaker 1: and events we could get involved with, which is great,
Speaker 1: but there's no such thing as a free lunch. And
Speaker 1: when you say yes to anything, you're also saying no
Speaker 1: to something else. So how do you decide what to
Speaker 1: say no to? And just as crucially, how do you
Speaker 1: say no when it's really hard? Whether you're a people
Speaker 1: pleaser or you just want to do a bit of everything,
Speaker 1: Turning down an opportunity even when you know you should
Speaker 1: can be really tough. Best Selling author, psychologist and Wharton
Speaker 1: professor Katie Milkman struggles saying no herself, but thanks to
Speaker 1: her No Club, she doesn't have to go it alone.
Speaker 1: My name is doctor amanthe Immer. I'm an organizational psychologist
Speaker 1: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, And this
Speaker 1: is how I work, a show about how to help
Speaker 1: you do your best work. On today is my Favorite
Speaker 1: Tip episode, we go back to an interview from the
Speaker 1: past and I pick out my favorite tip from the interview.
Speaker 1: In today's show, I speak with Katie Milkman about her
Speaker 1: No Club.
Speaker 2: I love my No Club. Yes, it is life saving
Speaker 2: and for so many reasons. Yes. So I have a
Speaker 2: group of it's three of us, three women at you know,
Speaker 2: research intensive business schools, all of whom care a lot
Speaker 2: about doing science, who care a lot about communicating about
Speaker 2: science and being good teachers and good citizens. We really
Speaker 2: a very aligned and similar goals. And we learned about
Speaker 2: this research that had been done by a team of
Speaker 2: economists led by Linda Babcock at Carnegie Mellon University showing
Speaker 2: that women really struggle to say no when asked to
Speaker 2: do what she calls non promotable tasks. So these are
Speaker 2: things like organizing the office party, taking notes at work,
Speaker 2: giving a talk at an event, or sitting on a
Speaker 2: committee that won't be rewarded in any way other than
Speaker 2: sort of appreciated because it's good citizenship. And men and
Speaker 2: women both get these kinds of asks a lot. It's
Speaker 2: part of being in any organization. And women have a
Speaker 2: lot more trouble saying no than men. They spend a
Speaker 2: lot of time on these kinds of tasks, and it
Speaker 2: can take away from doing things that are more valued
Speaker 2: by their organizations and may prevent them from rising to
Speaker 2: the highest levels. So we learned about this work, and
Speaker 2: we learned that Linda and her collaborators had formed a
Speaker 2: no Club of women who would basically reach out to
Speaker 2: each other for second opinions whenever they got an ask
Speaker 2: that fit into this category of something that's not part
Speaker 2: of your job description that they knew wouldn't strictly be
Speaker 2: rewarded by the organization, but that might be worth doing
Speaker 2: because you want to be a good citizen, you want
Speaker 2: to do the right things. And we thought this is
Speaker 2: such a great idea to have this no club because
Speaker 2: it turns out when we're in an outsider mode, when
Speaker 2: we're evaluating these kinds of asks to someone else, it's
Speaker 2: much easier and clearer for us to say objectively, oh no,
Speaker 2: that's a bad use of time. And when it's insider mode,
Speaker 2: you're thinking about the feelings you might hurt and the
Speaker 2: how are you going to handle everything? So we have
Speaker 2: this no club. We reach out to each other whenever
Speaker 2: we get these kinds of asks, and it has been
Speaker 2: absolutely incredible over the last I think it's going seven
Speaker 2: years and strong now for a bunch of reasons, but
Speaker 2: actually not all reasons I anticipated. So I know it
Speaker 2: would be great to have these incredible women on my
Speaker 2: size or of offering consulting services and to offer my
Speaker 2: own on these kinds of challenges, and then I might
Speaker 2: free up a lot of time and help me prioritize better.
Speaker 2: What I didn't fully appreciate when we created this is
Speaker 2: what an amazing community it would build. Right where these
Speaker 2: women we're already friends, but they've become closer because we
Speaker 2: see each other's struggles. We're in touch regularly, and it's
Speaker 2: become more like a support group. We actually recently added
Speaker 2: joy Club to No Club so that we can celebrate
Speaker 2: each other's successes, which I love so like emails go out,
Speaker 2: they used to just have a tag in front No
Speaker 2: Club and then people would respond right away. But we
Speaker 2: added joy Club so we could share good news with
Speaker 2: each other and celebrate it. A third thing that I
Speaker 2: didn't anticipate but that I've researched and now appreciate more
Speaker 2: thanks to that is that when we give advice to
Speaker 2: each other, it actually ends up helping us too. So
Speaker 2: I thought that would just be you know, it's reciprocity, right,
Speaker 2: they give me advice, I give them advice. That's just
Speaker 2: sort of the price you pay for joining this club.
Speaker 2: But it's not a price it turns out to be
Speaker 2: really valuable to me every time I see a challenge
Speaker 2: they're struggling with, because first of all, I'm likely to
Speaker 2: face some similar challenge and thinking through in an advance,
Speaker 2: seeing it with that outsider perspective, if I learn and
Speaker 2: I build my own confidence because it's easy for me
Speaker 2: to see, oh, this is the right way to think
Speaker 2: about it when it's someone else's problem, and then when
Speaker 2: I face the same challenge myself, I feel confident that
Speaker 2: I can tackle it because I've seen it before. So
Speaker 2: that's actually there's research showing that advice giving improves your
Speaker 2: own confidence and competence, which I got to be a
Speaker 2: part of, and that sort of opened my eyes to
Speaker 2: the power of the advice club not only as a
Speaker 2: social support group, not only as a way to tap
Speaker 2: into the wisdom of others, but actually to build your
Speaker 2: own confidence and competence as well.
Speaker 1: So I wonder whether you're now feeling inspired to start
Speaker 1: a no club like Katie. Maybe you might start by
Speaker 1: sharing this episode with a couple of people, ideally peers
Speaker 1: who have a pretty good feel for your work life
Speaker 1: and see what they think. In my life, I have
Speaker 1: a couple.
Speaker 2: Of peer mentoring groups.
Speaker 1: One is a group of women who are all founders
Speaker 1: and CEOs or x CEOs of their business, and the
Speaker 1: other is a group of fellow be corporation founders. So
Speaker 1: when I'm struggling with something such as whether to say
Speaker 1: no to an opportunity, I know that I can reach
Speaker 1: out to someone in either of these groups, who, as
Speaker 1: founders and business leaders, have a good feel for those
Speaker 1: unique pressures and can help me identify whether I should
Speaker 1: really be saying no to something even if the people
Speaker 1: pleaser in me wants to say yes. And I should
Speaker 1: also add that my assistant Hannah, who is intimate with
Speaker 1: all the demands placed on me and the request for
Speaker 1: my time, is also another brilliant sounding board who I
Speaker 1: bounce things off every week. If you're looking for more
Speaker 1: tips to improve the way that you work, I write
Speaker 1: a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three core things that
Speaker 1: I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from software
Speaker 1: and gadgets that I'm loving three to interesting research findings.
Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot co.
Speaker 1: That's how I Work dot co. I Work is produced
Speaker 1: by Inventing with production support from dead Set Studios, and
Speaker 1: thank you to mat Nimba who does the audio mix
Speaker 1: for every episode and makes everything sound so much better
Speaker 1: than it would have otherwise. See you next time.