1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: In the Internet era, there's an infinite number of opportunities, information, activities, 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: and events we could get involved with, which is great, 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: but there's no such thing as a free lunch. And 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: when you say yes to anything, you're also saying no 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: to something else. So how do you decide what to 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: say no to? And just as crucially, how do you 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: say no when it's really hard? Whether you're a people 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: pleaser or you just want to do a bit of everything, 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: Turning down an opportunity even when you know you should 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: can be really tough. Best Selling author, psychologist and Wharton 11 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: professor Katie Milkman struggles saying no herself, but thanks to 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: her No Club, she doesn't have to go it alone. 13 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: My name is doctor amanthe Immer. I'm an organizational psychologist 14 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, And this 15 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: is how I work, a show about how to help 16 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: you do your best work. On today is my Favorite 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: Tip episode, we go back to an interview from the 18 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 1: past and I pick out my favorite tip from the interview. 19 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: In today's show, I speak with Katie Milkman about her 20 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: No Club. 21 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 2: I love my No Club. Yes, it is life saving 22 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 2: and for so many reasons. Yes. So I have a 23 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 2: group of it's three of us, three women at you know, 24 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: research intensive business schools, all of whom care a lot 25 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: about doing science, who care a lot about communicating about 26 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 2: science and being good teachers and good citizens. We really 27 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: a very aligned and similar goals. And we learned about 28 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 2: this research that had been done by a team of 29 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: economists led by Linda Babcock at Carnegie Mellon University showing 30 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: that women really struggle to say no when asked to 31 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: do what she calls non promotable tasks. So these are 32 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 2: things like organizing the office party, taking notes at work, 33 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 2: giving a talk at an event, or sitting on a 34 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 2: committee that won't be rewarded in any way other than 35 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: sort of appreciated because it's good citizenship. And men and 36 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 2: women both get these kinds of asks a lot. It's 37 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: part of being in any organization. And women have a 38 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: lot more trouble saying no than men. They spend a 39 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: lot of time on these kinds of tasks, and it 40 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: can take away from doing things that are more valued 41 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,239 Speaker 2: by their organizations and may prevent them from rising to 42 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 2: the highest levels. So we learned about this work, and 43 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 2: we learned that Linda and her collaborators had formed a 44 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 2: no Club of women who would basically reach out to 45 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 2: each other for second opinions whenever they got an ask 46 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,399 Speaker 2: that fit into this category of something that's not part 47 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: of your job description that they knew wouldn't strictly be 48 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: rewarded by the organization, but that might be worth doing 49 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: because you want to be a good citizen, you want 50 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: to do the right things. And we thought this is 51 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 2: such a great idea to have this no club because 52 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 2: it turns out when we're in an outsider mode, when 53 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: we're evaluating these kinds of asks to someone else, it's 54 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: much easier and clearer for us to say objectively, oh no, 55 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: that's a bad use of time. And when it's insider mode, 56 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: you're thinking about the feelings you might hurt and the 57 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 2: how are you going to handle everything? So we have 58 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: this no club. We reach out to each other whenever 59 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 2: we get these kinds of asks, and it has been 60 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: absolutely incredible over the last I think it's going seven 61 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: years and strong now for a bunch of reasons, but 62 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: actually not all reasons I anticipated. So I know it 63 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: would be great to have these incredible women on my 64 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: size or of offering consulting services and to offer my 65 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: own on these kinds of challenges, and then I might 66 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: free up a lot of time and help me prioritize better. 67 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: What I didn't fully appreciate when we created this is 68 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 2: what an amazing community it would build. Right where these 69 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: women we're already friends, but they've become closer because we 70 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: see each other's struggles. We're in touch regularly, and it's 71 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 2: become more like a support group. We actually recently added 72 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: joy Club to No Club so that we can celebrate 73 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: each other's successes, which I love so like emails go out, 74 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 2: they used to just have a tag in front No 75 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: Club and then people would respond right away. But we 76 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 2: added joy Club so we could share good news with 77 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: each other and celebrate it. A third thing that I 78 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 2: didn't anticipate but that I've researched and now appreciate more 79 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 2: thanks to that is that when we give advice to 80 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: each other, it actually ends up helping us too. So 81 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: I thought that would just be you know, it's reciprocity, right, 82 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 2: they give me advice, I give them advice. That's just 83 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 2: sort of the price you pay for joining this club. 84 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 2: But it's not a price it turns out to be 85 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: really valuable to me every time I see a challenge 86 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 2: they're struggling with, because first of all, I'm likely to 87 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: face some similar challenge and thinking through in an advance, 88 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: seeing it with that outsider perspective, if I learn and 89 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: I build my own confidence because it's easy for me 90 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: to see, oh, this is the right way to think 91 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: about it when it's someone else's problem, and then when 92 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: I face the same challenge myself, I feel confident that 93 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: I can tackle it because I've seen it before. So 94 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 2: that's actually there's research showing that advice giving improves your 95 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: own confidence and competence, which I got to be a 96 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: part of, and that sort of opened my eyes to 97 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: the power of the advice club not only as a 98 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 2: social support group, not only as a way to tap 99 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: into the wisdom of others, but actually to build your 100 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 2: own confidence and competence as well. 101 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: So I wonder whether you're now feeling inspired to start 102 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: a no club like Katie. Maybe you might start by 103 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: sharing this episode with a couple of people, ideally peers 104 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: who have a pretty good feel for your work life 105 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: and see what they think. In my life, I have 106 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: a couple. 107 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: Of peer mentoring groups. 108 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: One is a group of women who are all founders 109 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: and CEOs or x CEOs of their business, and the 110 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: other is a group of fellow be corporation founders. So 111 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: when I'm struggling with something such as whether to say 112 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: no to an opportunity, I know that I can reach 113 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: out to someone in either of these groups, who, as 114 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: founders and business leaders, have a good feel for those 115 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: unique pressures and can help me identify whether I should 116 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: really be saying no to something even if the people 117 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: pleaser in me wants to say yes. And I should 118 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: also add that my assistant Hannah, who is intimate with 119 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: all the demands placed on me and the request for 120 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: my time, is also another brilliant sounding board who I 121 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: bounce things off every week. If you're looking for more 122 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: tips to improve the way that you work, I write 123 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three core things that 124 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from software 125 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: and gadgets that I'm loving three to interesting research findings. 126 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot co. 127 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: That's how I Work dot co. I Work is produced 128 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 1: by Inventing with production support from dead Set Studios, and 129 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: thank you to mat Nimba who does the audio mix 130 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: for every episode and makes everything sound so much better 131 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: than it would have otherwise. See you next time.