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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bunjelung Carguttin woman from Gadighal Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, an welcome to the Daily os. It's Monday,

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Speaker 2: the eighteenth of August. I'm Sam, I'm Zara. The Act

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Speaker 2: is set to decriminalize possession of small amounts of illicit

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Speaker 2: drugs next month, but the federal coalition is stepping in

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Speaker 2: to try and stop them.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't think any good can come of it.

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Speaker 3: I'll deliver death messages to parents as kids have died

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Speaker 3: of overdoses.

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Speaker 2: So why is that even possible and what does it

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Speaker 2: mean for the future of this bill and the future

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Speaker 2: of the territories.

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Speaker 1: We have yet another attack on our territory rites Today.

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Speaker 2: TDA journalist Tom Crowley will be joining me to explain

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Speaker 2: it all in the Deep Dive. But first here's the headlines.

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Speaker 2: British comedian and actor Russell Brand has been accused of rape,

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Speaker 2: sexual assault and emotional abuse by at least four women,

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Speaker 2: with the allegations arising from a joint investigation by the

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Speaker 2: UK's Sunday Times, The Times and Channel four. Brand denies

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Speaker 2: the allegations and has called the investigation a coordinated attack.

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Speaker 4: Chris Dawson has been sentenced to three additional years in prison.

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Speaker 4: Dawson was found guilty of what's called carnal knowledge or

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Speaker 4: sexual abuse of a student while he was a teacher

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Speaker 4: in Sydney in the nineteen eighties. The sentence adds to

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Speaker 4: the twenty four year maximum sentence for the nineteen eighty

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Speaker 4: two murder of his wife and means he won't leave

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Speaker 4: prison any earlier than twenty forty one.

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Speaker 2: AFL premiership player and coach Ron Barrassi, widely regarded as

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Speaker 2: an AFL legend, has died age eighty seven. Barrassi played

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Speaker 2: in six Premierships for the Melbourne Football Club and coached

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Speaker 2: both clubs and North Melbourne to two premierships each. Victorian

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Speaker 2: Premier Daniel Andrews confirmed a state funeral will be offered

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Speaker 2: to Barrass's family.

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Speaker 4: And The Good News a grand stand at Sydney's of

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Speaker 4: Course Stadium will be renamed to honor Australian sporting legend

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Speaker 4: Kathy Freeman. The stadium was where Freeman won gold in

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Speaker 4: the four hundred meters at the Sydney two thousand Olympics,

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Speaker 4: which broke the then record for the most watched TV

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Speaker 4: event in Australian history. The Eastern Grandstand, which holds thirty

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Speaker 4: thousand spectators, will now be renamed the Kathy Freeman Stand.

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Speaker 2: Tom, Welcome back to the podcast.

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Speaker 5: Lovely to be here, Sam, So you're here to tell us.

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Speaker 2: Today about a law in the Act which will decriminalize

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Speaker 2: possession small amounts of drugs. Now, the only thing with

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Speaker 2: this story is that the Federal Coalition might not let

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Speaker 2: them do it.

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Speaker 5: Yes, and that might be a confusing place to start

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Speaker 5: for some people. We're talking about the Act government, so

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Speaker 5: what on earth does the federal coalition have to do

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Speaker 5: with it? Anything. Will come back to that in a moment.

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Speaker 5: It's a really interesting story, not just for the drug

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Speaker 5: decriminalization issue, which is itself fascinating, but a really interesting

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Speaker 5: question here about the relationship between the federal government and

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Speaker 5: the territories.

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Speaker 2: Well, I want to get to that relationship in a minute.

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Speaker 2: But can we start with the actual law itself. What

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Speaker 2: do I needn't know about the legislation?

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Speaker 5: Yes, So last year the Act passed a pretty significant

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Speaker 5: law to decriminalize the possession of small amounts of a

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Speaker 5: bunch of illicit drugs. So the Act has long been,

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Speaker 5: I guess, at the forefront of drug decriminalization. So you

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Speaker 5: go all the way back to the nineteen nineties, they

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Speaker 5: decriminalized possession of small amounts of marijuana and replace that

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Speaker 5: with a fine. What they did last year was essentially that,

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Speaker 5: but for a whole broader category of illicit drugs. So

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Speaker 5: we're talking cocaine, MDMA, ice, acid, magic, mushrooms, a whole

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Speaker 5: number of basically all illicit drugs. And what this new

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Speaker 5: law will do will meet and that if you're caught

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Speaker 5: in the act with small amounts of those that you

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Speaker 5: will be fined instead of facing criminal prosecution and possible

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Speaker 5: jail time. So there's a set amount for each of

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Speaker 5: these drugs. I think it's two grams worth of cocaine,

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Speaker 5: half a gram worth of MDMA, et cetera. And as

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Speaker 5: long as you're below that level, you'll get a fine

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Speaker 5: of one hundred dollars above that you might still get

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Speaker 5: criminal prosecution. It remains illegal to traffic drugs and supply drugs,

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Speaker 5: so it's not a totally fundamental shift, but it is

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Speaker 5: a step towards harm minimization. Those are the words that

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Speaker 5: we usually use to describe drugs policies like this, and

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Speaker 5: the way that the Act Government describes that this is

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Speaker 5: about viewing drugs policy less as a criminal issue and

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Speaker 5: less as an issue that should be dealt with in

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Speaker 5: the criminal justice system and more as a health issue,

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Speaker 5: and the idea being that police would refer people to

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Speaker 5: addiction services, to drug services, and it would be more

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Speaker 5: about that health and support system response rather than a

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Speaker 5: criminal justice response. So that's the direction the Act Government

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Speaker 5: moved last Jeer to head in they passed the law

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Speaker 5: that laws due to come in next month.

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Speaker 2: And they've kind of had some form in this area

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Speaker 2: as well with their pill testing regime where they kind

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Speaker 2: of have led the country there as well, so it

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Speaker 2: kind of fits into their harm minimization body of law.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about this today, though not necessarily because of

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Speaker 2: the drug reforms itself, but because we have a situation

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Speaker 2: unfolding whether the federal coalition is seeking to intervene in

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Speaker 2: this law. Why are we talking about federal politics when

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Speaker 2: we're dealing with a territory law.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So this rubs up against a really interesting quirk

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Speaker 5: of our political system that I suspect most people don't

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Speaker 5: know about, and that is that the territories, the ACT

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Speaker 5: and the NT aren't really fully in charge of their

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Speaker 5: own affairs. So I've got to take a bit of

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Speaker 5: a step back here, right. The states in Australia, so

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Speaker 5: Victoria and New South Wales, Queensland, Sawa, Tasmania. The states

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Speaker 5: have I guess, power over a number of different things.

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Speaker 5: The federal government itself was actually created by an agreement

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Speaker 5: of the six states. So back in nineteen oh one,

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Speaker 5: the six states get together, they agree to set up

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Speaker 5: this federal government. And there are a number of things

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Speaker 5: that state governments just get to decide for themselves, and

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Speaker 5: the federal government doesn't have any power to interfere. So

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Speaker 5: gambling laws and drug laws are among those. We can

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Speaker 5: also think of lockdown laws. You go back to COVID,

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Speaker 5: the states had the power to decide on emergency measures

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Speaker 5: within their own states, and if the federal government had

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Speaker 5: wanted to order, say Victoria to end its lockdown. It

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Speaker 5: didn't have the power to do that. The states were

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Speaker 5: in charge. But that's not the case for the territories.

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Speaker 5: So the Australian Capital Territory and the Northern Territory are

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Speaker 5: essentially owned by the federal government, if you like. And

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Speaker 5: for a while the federal government was really in charge

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Speaker 5: of administering those territories. But then at some point it

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Speaker 5: decided to give the Act and the NT the right

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Speaker 5: to self government. And now the Act and the NT

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Speaker 5: they function basically like state governments. They have their own

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Speaker 5: elections and parliaments. They have chief ministers instead of premiers,

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Speaker 5: but it's roughly the same thing, and the Act and

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Speaker 5: the NT are largely responsible for governing themselves. But there's

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Speaker 5: a catch, and the catch is that they only have

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Speaker 5: that power under federal laws. The federal government has sort

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Speaker 5: of delegated decision making power to the Act and the NT,

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Speaker 5: But that means, unlike in the case of the states,

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Speaker 5: the federal government can decide to take that power away

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Speaker 5: anytime that it wants.

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Speaker 2: Is there any form from the federal government in interfering

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Speaker 2: with the territories like that?

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Speaker 5: There is, and in fact it was a hot button

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Speaker 5: issue not that long ago. So the big issue where

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Speaker 5: this came to light recently was euthanasia, a voluntary assisted dying.

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Speaker 5: So in the nineties, the Northern Territory becomes one of

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Speaker 5: the first places anywhere in the world, and certainly the

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Speaker 5: first in Australia, pass the law to legalize euthanasia, and

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Speaker 5: the federal government, the Howard government, says no, you don't.

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Speaker 5: They were strongly opposed to the idea and so they

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Speaker 5: saw an opportunity to say, well, we're in charge, we're

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Speaker 5: the boss of the NT, we can actually pass the

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Speaker 5: law in the Federal Parliament that says nope, the NT

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Speaker 5: and the Act they cannot make their own laws on euthanasia.

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Speaker 5: And that law was in place for over twenty years

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Speaker 5: and it was only last year that got repealed and

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Speaker 5: that the NT and the Act were allowed to make

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Speaker 5: up their own minds on euthanasia law. So it is

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Speaker 5: something that we've seen before.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's some really interesting bit of modern history for everybody.

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Speaker 2: But now let's return to the drugs discussion. So the

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Speaker 2: territories must introduce laws all the time. What is it

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Speaker 2: about this particular piece of legislation that's gotten the Federal

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Speaker 2: Coalition to sit up and take notice and take action.

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Speaker 5: Well, I don't like it pretty simply. They're very strongly

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Speaker 5: opposed to it. And so we've heard a lot from

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Speaker 5: Opposition Leader Peter Dutton and Shadow Attorney General mcaley Cash

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Speaker 5: and they're basically warning that the Act Government is going

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Speaker 5: to be in Michaulia Cash's words, rolling out the red

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Speaker 5: carpet for ice, heroin, cocaine's speed asset and other drugs,

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Speaker 5: and Opposition Leader Peter Tuttan said that Canberra was going

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Speaker 5: to become a tourist attraction for drugs.

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Speaker 3: You'll end up luring drug users into Canberra. That'll be

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Speaker 3: the the tourism attraction for people coming from all over

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Speaker 3: the country as you see in states in the United States.

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Speaker 5: There's a lot of talk from the coalition about how

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Speaker 5: it's going to make the streets of Canberra unsafe. They're

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Speaker 5: saying that this is a step in the wrong direction

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Speaker 5: and they want to intervene. And so McAuley Cash introduced

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Speaker 5: a private Senator's Bill on Thursday of last week seeking

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Speaker 5: to overturn this Act Government law.

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Speaker 2: And has there been any opposition to this move?

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Speaker 5: Well, the Act Government is obviously not very happy with

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Speaker 5: the Act. Chief Minister Andrew Barr called it an assault

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Speaker 5: on the Territories Rights Act. Senator David Pocock he's also,

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Speaker 5: maybe unsurprisingly not too thrilled with this. He said, you know,

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Speaker 5: it really just shows that Act people don't have the

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Speaker 5: same rights as everyone else when federal senators can try

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Speaker 5: and intervene in their democratic business.

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Speaker 1: And we have federal senators who feel like they can

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Speaker 1: reach into our democratically elected legislative Assembly when they don't

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Speaker 1: like decisions.

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Speaker 5: But I think what's probably most interesting is that the

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Speaker 5: Liberal Party in the Act also has criticized this right.

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Speaker 5: So the Liberal Party in the Act, they don't like

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Speaker 5: the drug policy, and within the Act Legislative Assembly they're

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Speaker 5: doing absolutely everything they can to stop this policy from happening.

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Speaker 5: But the leader of the Act, Liberals, Elizabeth Lee, criticized

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Speaker 5: her federal colleagues for trying to get involved here, and

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Speaker 5: that issue again of territory rights trumped the fact that

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Speaker 5: she doesn't like this policy either, but she doesn't want

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Speaker 5: the federal colleagues to be meddling.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I think really interesting about this story

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Speaker 2: is that in yes, of course, in some ways it

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Speaker 2: is about the drug legislation, but then it's also got

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Speaker 2: this really significant subcontext of territory rights. Do we think

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Speaker 2: the bill is going to pass, No, it's not.

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Speaker 5: It's unlikely I think to pass. The federal government has

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Speaker 5: said pretty quickly they don't have any interest in getting

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Speaker 5: involved in this. I think the coalition didn't expect it

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Speaker 5: to pass, that there's some politics in doing this. So

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Speaker 5: we often see Green's independence all the time. They will

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Speaker 5: introduce these things even though they're never going to pass,

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Speaker 5: to make a political point. And we've heard Peter Dutton

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Speaker 5: saying this is a test for the Prime Minister. Does

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Speaker 5: he want to allow the streets of Canberra to be

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Speaker 5: full of drugs? And trying to put the pressure on

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Speaker 5: the federal government to jump on board and intervene. But

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Speaker 5: it doesn't look like that's going to happen. There's not

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Speaker 5: really any prospect that this will pass.

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Speaker 2: Can we zoom out a bit to finish, Tom And

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Speaker 2: I'm keen to understand why it matters that the federal

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Speaker 2: Coalition is attempting to intervene in this way and what

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Speaker 2: it says about the role of territory laws in Australia.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a really interesting question, Sam. And this is

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Speaker 5: a really interesting little quirk of the system that we've

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Speaker 5: been focusing on today. As I said at the beginning,

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Speaker 5: I suspect most people didn't realize that in the Act

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Speaker 5: and the NT democracy is partial and conditional, and that

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Speaker 5: actually in our system the federal government can jump right

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Speaker 5: over the top and contradict the will of voters in

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Speaker 5: Canberra or Darwin. It's a really fascinating element of our

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Speaker 5: political system. And perhaps I'm in Melbourne, you're in Sydney, Sam,

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Speaker 5: people who live in the States might be sitting back

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Speaker 5: and thinking, oh, well, glad I'm not in one of

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Speaker 5: the territories. But here's a note to finish on the

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Speaker 5: same thing can technically happen nationwide as well, because, of course,

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Speaker 5: even though we think of the Prime Minister as the

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Speaker 5: leader of Australia, technically the letter of the law and

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Speaker 5: the Constitution it's King Charles and the Governor General who

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Speaker 5: in fact caller shots. And the Constitution gives the Governor

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Speaker 5: General a whole lot of powers that rarely get used.

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Speaker 5: But you go back fifty years and a Governor General

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Speaker 5: sacked and Australian prime minister there are lots of checks

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Speaker 5: and balances and different letters of the law in our

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Speaker 5: system that we don't spend a lot of time thinking about.

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Speaker 5: So perhaps this is a bit of food for thought.

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Speaker 2: Good to have some constitutional civics education food for thought

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Speaker 2: for a Monday morning. Tom, thanks so much for joining us,

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Speaker 2: Thanks Sam, good to be here, and thank you for

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Speaker 2: joining us on the pod this morning. We'll be back

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Speaker 2: again tomorrow. Until then, have a great day.