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Speaker 1: There's a growing debate unfolding in the NT at the

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Speaker 1: moment over a proposed trial allowing pharmacists to prescribe medications independently.

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Speaker 1: We spoke to the Australian Medical Association's Northern Territory branch

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Speaker 1: last week. They've strongly opposed the move, warning that it

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Speaker 1: could put patient safety at risk and blur the line

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Speaker 1: between diagnosis and retail. We did, however, towards the end

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Speaker 1: of last year speak about this when the trial was

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Speaker 1: announced initially and talked about some of the positives that

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Speaker 1: we might see as a result of this trial. Now

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Speaker 1: joining us on the line is the Pharmacy Guild of

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Speaker 1: Australia's Northern Territory branch President Peter Hatswell. Good morning to you, Peter.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie.

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Speaker 1: Good to have you on the show now, Peter, I

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Speaker 1: know the AMA. They joined us last week. They said

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Speaker 1: that this proposed trial is driven more by retail interests

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Speaker 1: than patient care. How do you respond to that criticism.

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Speaker 2: Muss, healthfessionals were not as shopkeepers and we are there

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Speaker 2: for our patients. That's just really disingenuous to suggest such

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Speaker 2: a thing. We have our patients in mind. We really

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Speaker 2: look try and look after them as best you can.

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Speaker 2: I spent thirty years in our Springs, and I can

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Speaker 2: tell you there wasn't a day that went by, in fact,

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Speaker 2: multiple times a day that I would have people coming

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Speaker 2: in desperate for some help because they were unable to

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Speaker 2: get in to see a doctor to get their problems seen. Too.

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Speaker 2: They had quite often fairly basic, ordinary illness problems that

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Speaker 2: they really needed something for, and they just couldn't get

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Speaker 2: the help they need. And this is sort of thing

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Speaker 2: that left untreated, could end up turning into something far

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Speaker 2: more serious, where you end up needing, needing medical care

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Speaker 2: in a hospital or some other environment. And it didn't

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Speaker 2: need to be that way. And I was hamstrung by

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Speaker 2: the by the fact that I couldn't deal with simple issues.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, and that's what it's about. It's about

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Speaker 2: our patients. They need care and they just can't get

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Speaker 2: it in the timely fashion.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what are like for those listening this morning,

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Speaker 1: What are some of the different ailments or concerns that

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Speaker 1: pharmacists would be able to help, you know, to help

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Speaker 1: patients with in that pharmacy setting.

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Speaker 2: Oh, there's so many things that we see on a

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Speaker 2: day to day basis things that that can get much worse.

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Speaker 2: So that's one thing that we're already dealing with and

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Speaker 2: we're dealing very successfully. I think it's in the NT

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Speaker 2: We've seen over four hundred patients for you and retract

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Speaker 2: infections in females. So that's a problem that it does

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Speaker 2: not require complicated therapy. Usually it's just antibiotics. But without antibiotics,

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Speaker 2: this infection could get much much worse. Without treatment in

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Speaker 2: a timely amount, you would end up possibly with an

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Speaker 2: a chronic infection of the bladder or even infection in

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Speaker 2: the kidney. And that happens and then the person could

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Speaker 2: be in hospital for several days with intervene intravenous antibiotics

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Speaker 2: and like a simple timely antibiotic script according to the guidelines.

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Speaker 2: And let me just point out that what we do

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Speaker 2: is entirely protocol driven, so that the Northern Territory does

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Speaker 2: have its own set of guidelines for antibiotics, and we're

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Speaker 2: you know, pharmacists are very aware that you used inappropriately

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Speaker 2: antibiotics can cause more antibodic resistance and that's the last

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Speaker 2: thing we would want to do, so we're very very

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Speaker 2: cautious about that and We follow the guidelines very carefully,

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Speaker 2: and these are the same guidelines that every GP and

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Speaker 2: medical other medical practitioner follows in order to make sure

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Speaker 2: that the patient gets the therapy they needed, that it's

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Speaker 2: all patient driven, and that we reduce the possibility of

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Speaker 2: antibiotic anti microbial resistance in the community. So doing it

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Speaker 2: the right way, Peter, when.

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Speaker 1: Is this proposed trial allowing pharmacists to prescribe medications? When

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Speaker 1: is it meant to kick off? And you know, are

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Speaker 1: you concerned because of this backlash from the AMA that

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Speaker 1: it may not sort of happen.

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Speaker 2: Well, the Leo Fanokao had announced that pretty much quite

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Speaker 2: earlier this year in January February, that the first cohort

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Speaker 2: of students of which I'm one, I have done my

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Speaker 2: training to become a prescriber. But that hasn't been realized.

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Speaker 2: We haven't you know, translated those promises into reality. So

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Speaker 2: we're still working with the government to try and bring

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Speaker 2: these regulations that we need in order so that pharmacists

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Speaker 2: can prescribe in as quick as we can. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's a real risk here to the community. We've got

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Speaker 2: such an opportunity to be able to address those needs

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Speaker 2: of the community and make sure that our patients get

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Speaker 2: the treatment they need in a timely, convenience and safe way.

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Speaker 2: And it's just it's stalled, and that is a concern

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Speaker 2: because people are going to end up being harmed a

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Speaker 2: lot more than they need to be and because of

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Speaker 2: the delay. It's happening now in Queensland has been happening

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Speaker 2: for some time very successfully. They've got literally thousands of

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Speaker 2: people that have gone through the system with no ill

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Speaker 2: effects whatsoever. We've got safe, convenient, timely, affordable prescribing going

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Speaker 2: on in Queensland, which you know, far north Queensland is

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Speaker 2: not a lot different from Darwin and certainly the northern

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Speaker 2: part of Northern Territory and they and of course there

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Speaker 2: would be some minor differences. And we're absolutely one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent prepared to work with the boards and the people

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Speaker 2: that are out sort of looking out for that anti

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Speaker 2: microbial resistance kind of problem. And we're very keen to

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Speaker 2: work with GPS. I mean, we want to be there

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Speaker 2: to work with the GPS to make sure that the

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Speaker 2: patients get the best care. And it's the whole process

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Speaker 2: that I've been trained to do and I work I

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Speaker 2: did one hundred and twenty hours under the supervision of

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Speaker 2: a GP, working with him and patients to make sure

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Speaker 2: that I was doing it in a safe and effective way.

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Speaker 2: And I think that, you know, there's just such an

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Speaker 2: opportunity that our patients in the territory are going to

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Speaker 2: miss out if we don't get this thing moving.

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Speaker 1: So, Peter, you've done the training. You know, obviously you're

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Speaker 1: already a fully qualified pharmacist, but you've done that additional

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Speaker 1: training for a year to be able to go through

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Speaker 1: the prescribing And certainly your understanding was that the trial

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Speaker 1: was going to be kicking off earlier this year, like January.

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Speaker 1: We're now in April, and is it it sounds like

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Speaker 1: it's just sort of all up in the air.

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Speaker 2: It's it's a worry, yeah, exactly. That lear didn't make

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Speaker 2: it quite clear that by this time we would have

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Speaker 2: the ability to actually see patients and help them, and

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Speaker 2: you know the fact that that hasn't actually happened. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's a problem. And my training taught me how you know,

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Speaker 2: to well apart from you know, hands on experience with patients,

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Speaker 2: but I learned all about the sort of things that

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Speaker 2: we didn't do, the clinical stuff that we didn't do

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Speaker 2: quite in as much detail as we could have when

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Speaker 2: I went through university many many years ago, and so

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Speaker 2: note taking and you know, getting going through the differential

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Speaker 2: diagnoses of illnesses, the clinical reasoning and red flags. We're

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Speaker 2: treating the whole patient, so we need to know when

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Speaker 2: we're looking at any problem that we're not missing something.

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Speaker 2: And so that's what the training is all about, to

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Speaker 2: make sure that what we do is, say, so if

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Speaker 2: someone comes in with chest pain and so I think

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Speaker 2: I've got heartburn, and we think, you know, as a

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Speaker 2: maybe back in the old days, I think, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: you've got heartburn. Let's let's deal with that. But of

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Speaker 2: course now we're looking very carefully, Okay, is it really heartburn?

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Speaker 2: Could it be a you know, maybe it is actually

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Speaker 2: a heart attack, Maybe it's maybe it could be a

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Speaker 2: lord Forbid cancer, or difficulties swallowing or something else. So

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Speaker 2: we're always on the lookout for that that complicated issue

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Speaker 2: that really needs a more more care by a GP

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Speaker 2: or more investigation or whatever it might be. We certainly

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Speaker 2: don't want to be dealing with complex issues. We're dealing

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Speaker 2: with the you know, if it looks like a duck

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Speaker 2: and cracks like a duck. Okay, let's let's deal with that.

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Speaker 2: But we also look for look forward thinking and say,

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Speaker 2: if it goes on too long, if it returns too quickly,

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Speaker 2: if it does it seemed to be resolving, climb back

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Speaker 2: and we will get you the care you need. And

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Speaker 2: from what I can tell you know, I've been speaking

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Speaker 2: to a lot of pharmacists in other areas that are prescribing,

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Speaker 2: and they say that they work very closely with their

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Speaker 2: local GP clinics. So something doesn't look right, they ring

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Speaker 2: them up and say, look I've got I'll send you

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Speaker 2: the notes with the patient's permission. I'll send you their notes,

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Speaker 2: and I can tell you that you know, this is

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Speaker 2: what we've observed, this is what I'm worried about. Can

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Speaker 2: you please fit them in because I really think they

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Speaker 2: need your help and rather than waiting three weeks to

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Speaker 2: see someone, we can get them through because these people

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Speaker 2: need help, and we've triarged them, as it were, to

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Speaker 2: make sure that that you know, this problem that they've

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Speaker 2: got is complex, needs your help, but it needs it now.

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Speaker 1: Well, Peter, I think I've definitely given us a bit

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Speaker 1: more food for thought. I'll be really keen to find out,

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Speaker 1: you know, when the government is going to sort of

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Speaker 1: allow this chrial to get underway or what they're going

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Speaker 1: to do, so we'll stay on to it. Thank you

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Speaker 1: very much for having a chat with us this morning.

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Speaker 1: I always appreciate your time. Thank you, Thanks so much,