Speaker 1: New Year, New me, But does it still count as
Speaker 1: a new year if it's already March. If you set
Speaker 1: some lofty goals as part of your resolutions for twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two, now's when they're truly tested. The optimistic sine
Speaker 1: of January one has started to wear off, and the
Speaker 1: new year can start to feel like just another year.
Speaker 1: So how do you keep your progress chagging along? And
Speaker 1: what if you don't want to wait until January twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three to set new goals? Thankfully, Katie Milkman wrote
Speaker 1: the book on How to Change. Literally, How to Change
Speaker 1: is packed with science based tips and tricks for how
Speaker 1: to pursue your goals and become the person you want
Speaker 1: to be. It covers everything from getting to the gym
Speaker 1: more often, to when you should and shouldn't give other
Speaker 1: people advice. And as a best selling author, podcast home
Speaker 1: and Wharton professor, Katie's definitely the person to listen to
Speaker 1: when it comes to chasing down and achieving your goals.
Speaker 1: So if you're looking to create any sort of a
Speaker 1: change in your life, I can guarantee you that this
Speaker 1: chat with Katie will arm you with a ton of
Speaker 1: practical ways to make change. Happen. My name is doctor
Speaker 1: Amantha Imbach. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of
Speaker 1: behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work,
Speaker 1: a show about how to help you do your best work.
Speaker 1: Over the Christmas break, I read a ton of books,
Speaker 1: but my favorite book by far was Katie's book How
Speaker 1: to Change, which is why I reached out to her
Speaker 1: to come on the show. And interestingly, Katie started writing
Speaker 1: this book at the same time she became homeowner. So
Speaker 1: was that timing just a happy coincidence or was it
Speaker 1: something more deliberate.
Speaker 2: I really really use fresh starts in my life to
Speaker 2: motivate new things. And it's something I've studied, and I
Speaker 2: studied it because I did it, and then I do
Speaker 2: it more because I've studied it. So fresh starts are
Speaker 2: these moments when we feel like we're turning the page
Speaker 2: on a new chapter because something momentous has happened, something
Speaker 2: that feels like it brackets time for us. So it
Speaker 2: could be something like celebrating a birthday or starting a
Speaker 2: new job. It could be the celebration of a new year.
Speaker 2: Even the start of a new week actually can be
Speaker 2: a fresh start, or the start of a new month.
Speaker 2: So these are dates in our lives that they feel
Speaker 2: like they're offering us a new beginning, and because of that,
Speaker 2: we tend to be more motivated to pursue new goals
Speaker 2: at fresh start moments. So we've shown this in data
Speaker 2: set after data set, from when people search for the
Speaker 2: term diet on Google to when they visit the gym
Speaker 2: at the highest frequency to when they set goals about
Speaker 2: everything from their finances to their health to their environment.
Speaker 2: It's a really wide ranging phenomenon, but for me, it's
Speaker 2: come up in particular at moments in life that really
Speaker 2: feel like transition points. They laid me to step back
Speaker 2: and think big picture. And when I bought a new
Speaker 2: home and was thinking about this big change that my
Speaker 2: family was about to make, moving from an apartment to
Speaker 2: our first physical house, it felt like a good time
Speaker 2: to think about what was the big new project I
Speaker 2: wanted to take on with this move, and I decided
Speaker 2: I'd been thinking about writing a book for years. I
Speaker 2: realized this was a perfect moment to begin.
Speaker 1: Now. I've heard that a goal that you've been working
Speaker 1: on in twenty twenty two is to stay off your
Speaker 1: phone or computer when you're with your six year old son.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about that and how you
Speaker 1: sort of pursuing that goal.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. In fact, writing a book did not help
Speaker 2: with this because so much, especially in the well, especially
Speaker 2: in this era when I haven't been able to do
Speaker 2: so many in person events. A lot of the promotion
Speaker 2: for the book was in the digital world, from going
Speaker 2: on podcasts to posting on social media, and that I
Speaker 2: think became an even sort of bigger time sink than
Speaker 2: it was before, and it built some bad habits that
Speaker 2: I was definitely ready to get rid of with the
Speaker 2: start of the new year and that opportunity for a
Speaker 2: little boost and motivation, And in particular, I think I
Speaker 2: should be present when I'm around my son as opposed
Speaker 2: to oggling whatever the latest meme is on social media.
Speaker 2: So he gets home right around dinner time and we
Speaker 2: don't have that much time together. We only have a
Speaker 2: couple of hours before his bedtime, and minew Year's resolution
Speaker 2: was to spend that time without my phone, without my computer,
Speaker 2: fully engaged with him. And it's been great. It's actually
Speaker 2: going quite well. You know. You know, I wouldn't give
Speaker 2: myself an A plus. I'd probably give myself an a minus.
Speaker 2: There's been a little.
Speaker 1: Little bit just there always is, But.
Speaker 2: Mostly I'm using what I'd call a commitment device, which
Speaker 2: is that I leave my phone upstairs and in my office,
Speaker 2: and so when I'm downstairs with him, I don't I
Speaker 2: have to, you know, literally physically get up go up
Speaker 2: the stairs to find it, to track it down. And
Speaker 2: that makes it hard enough. There's enough of a barrier
Speaker 2: between me and the temptation that I don't mindlessly pick
Speaker 2: it up and engage when I should be fully focused
Speaker 2: on him. And it's been really nice to have dinners
Speaker 2: that have no interruptions and to have our family time
Speaker 2: without me, you know, wondering about what's the latest work
Speaker 2: email I need to attend to.
Speaker 1: And can you explain exactly what a commitment device is
Speaker 1: and how you landed on keeping your phone in a
Speaker 1: completely separate area of the house as the one that
Speaker 1: was going to help you change your behavior? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so. Commitment devices are sort of counterintuitive. They're tools
Speaker 2: that constrain our future behavior so we won't fall prey
Speaker 2: to temptation. And we're really used to other people imposing
Speaker 2: these kinds of rules or sanctions on us for bad
Speaker 2: behavior right, Think about the threat of a speeding ticket
Speaker 2: if you go too fast. You might be tempted to speed,
Speaker 2: but you know you might get fined, or a restriction
Speaker 2: on some recreational drug that you might be tempted to
Speaker 2: use if it weren't illegal and you weren't worried that
Speaker 2: you could get in huge trouble. So those are the
Speaker 2: kinds of restrictions and fines that were used to we're
Speaker 2: used to other people imposing them on us. What's funny
Speaker 2: about a commitment device is it's you imposing those kinds
Speaker 2: of restrictions on yourself in service of a higher level goal,
Speaker 2: and with an acknowledgment that if you don't take some
Speaker 2: action to restrict yourself, you might end up making decisions
Speaker 2: you'll later regret. So an example of a commitment device
Speaker 2: that I just described would be leaving my phone upstairs.
Speaker 2: Now I've imposed a cost on myself. It's not a
Speaker 2: cost like a speeding ticket. It's a cost of, you know,
Speaker 2: walking up the stairs. It's a little bit of a
Speaker 2: hassle factor in order to actually access my temptations. A
Speaker 2: very minor commitment device. More extreme ones involve things like
Speaker 2: putting money on the line that you'll have to forfeit.
Speaker 1: If you fail to achieve a goal.
Speaker 2: Like you know, a twenty dollars fine every week if
Speaker 2: you eat more than one meal that involves French fries
Speaker 2: or something along these lines. Then you can define a
Speaker 2: reverree who will hold you accountable to this. And there's
Speaker 2: websites that will literally take your money if you fail
Speaker 2: to achieve these kinds of goals, So you can set
Speaker 2: them up in all different ways, and research has shown
Speaker 2: they're actually very effective tools for helping us achieve more
Speaker 2: because they prevent us from giving into temptation as easily.
Speaker 2: They make it more costly in the moment to give
Speaker 2: into those tugs.
Speaker 1: And how about work, Are there any behaviors that you've
Speaker 1: tried to change where you've used commitment devices like in
Speaker 1: the last few years.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I use commitment devices constantly at work, and
Speaker 2: we all do. Actually, we just probably wouldn't realize that
Speaker 2: they were commitment devices. So every time you promise a
Speaker 2: colleague something by a deadline, you're creating a commitment device,
Speaker 2: right if there wasn't literally a deadline beforehand, and you
Speaker 2: say I'm going to get that to you by Friday,
Speaker 2: that is a commitment device, because now this person's going
Speaker 2: to be disappointed in you if you don't actually follow through.
Speaker 2: By giving yourself a deadline, you have made it harder
Speaker 2: to procrastinate on this task, and you've made it so
Speaker 2: someone's going to hold you accountable for executing and you'll
Speaker 2: feel a little shame if you don't actually get it
Speaker 2: in by Friday. So every deadline we set that isn't required,
Speaker 2: those deadlines are commitment devices. Every time that we set
Speaker 2: aside a block of time to work on something, right,
Speaker 2: you put something on your calendar that isn't just a
Speaker 2: phone call or some other kind of meeting. You block
Speaker 2: time on your calendar and say, you know, this is
Speaker 2: protected time for purpose X. That's also a commitment device,
Speaker 2: because now you're going to feel a little paying of
Speaker 2: shame if you don't accomplish whatever task it is you
Speaker 2: set out to accomplish for yourself in that time. You've
Speaker 2: created boundaries around it, and you've a sense of stronger
Speaker 2: commitment to it. These are a weak examples of commitment
Speaker 2: device right there. They pale in comparison to putting thousands
Speaker 2: of dollars on the line. For instance, if you fail
Speaker 2: to achieve some specific goal. But they can be very
Speaker 2: useful and I use them frequently. I'm frequently block time.
Speaker 2: I always promise people things by a certain deadline in
Speaker 2: order to make sure that I have a clear goal,
Speaker 2: even if it's a task that I could put off,
Speaker 2: and definitely if it's something that I want to prioritize
Speaker 2: and get done, I choose a date by which I
Speaker 2: promise it to a person.
Speaker 1: That's funny. I've recently started saying to my team who
Speaker 1: were occasionally saying, Amantha, I'm still waiting for you to
Speaker 1: respond to that email that I said several weeks ago.
Speaker 1: I'm like, just give me a deadline, just give me
Speaker 1: a fake deadline, and then I will get it done. Sorry, exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it just it's so effective. Now. There are so many
Speaker 1: different strategies in how to change, and I'd love to
Speaker 1: know when you're writing the book, which of the strategies
Speaker 1: impacted the way you work the most, or do you
Speaker 1: find the most powerful. Let's see.
Speaker 2: I think probably the most important in terms of the
Speaker 2: way I work is the research that's been done on
Speaker 2: social norms and conformity, or how the people around us
Speaker 2: shape our productivity, our happiness and our behavior more generally,
Speaker 2: and I think recognizing that and recognizing that I could
Speaker 2: be thoughtful about how I constructed the teams that I
Speaker 2: work with and how I learned from the people who
Speaker 2: are around me has been one of the most important
Speaker 2: things to my work as an academic. It's an unusual
Speaker 2: profession and that you have the opportunity to create your
Speaker 2: own team every time you start a project. So in
Speaker 2: most lines of work there's some more constraints, but in academia,
Speaker 2: you essentially it's like a little startup company. Every time
Speaker 2: you have a hypothesis, you want to go out and test,
Speaker 2: and you get to decide who am I going to
Speaker 2: recruit to work on this startup project with me? And
Speaker 2: so I have been very thoughtful and careful about the
Speaker 2: people who I invite to collaborate with me, with a
Speaker 2: recognition of what they would bring to not only in
Speaker 2: terms of ideas and background and knowledge that they would
Speaker 2: bring to a collaboration, but what they would help me
Speaker 2: accomplish as a person with developmental goals. And I try
Speaker 2: to work with other people who stretch me and who
Speaker 2: teach me new skills and who I love being around
Speaker 2: because I know that fun is really important to productivity,
Speaker 2: and if you enjoy the work you're doing, it turns
Speaker 2: out that you can be much more effective and you'll
Speaker 2: persist much longer on difficult goals. So I found that
Speaker 2: the fund can be social and that working with people
Speaker 2: who I really enjoy makes me love my work and
Speaker 2: persist longer. And I also use this tool that Angela Duckworth,
Speaker 2: who's one of the most fun people to work with,
Speaker 2: a best selling author of Grit and a frequent collaborator
Speaker 2: of mine, who maybe sort of best personifies the sort
Speaker 2: of part of my life and choosing her as a
Speaker 2: frequent collaborator has been a wonderful experience. But she and
Speaker 2: I wrote about something we call copy and paste, which
Speaker 2: we have both done with each other's lives, which is,
Speaker 2: there's someone who you are spending time with who is
Speaker 2: pushing towards a similar goal, and often we're not very
Speaker 2: deliberate about trying to figure out what are the things
Speaker 2: that they're doing that are working that we could emulate.
Speaker 2: But when we gave people in one research study a
Speaker 2: little nudge to go find someone with a shared goal
Speaker 2: who was actually doing better and achieving it and ask
Speaker 2: them what are they, what are some of their strategies,
Speaker 2: and then choose one to copy. People ended up doing
Speaker 2: a lot better than when we just said, you know,
Speaker 2: go make a plan, go try to figure out a
Speaker 2: way to get better, or when we gave them lists
Speaker 2: of hacks that other people had generated. It was better
Speaker 2: to go find someone in your social network, someone who
Speaker 2: was close to you, who you could emulate, than to
Speaker 2: get sort of arbitrarily collected hacks or to just try
Speaker 2: to make a plan in isolation, because other people know
Speaker 2: so much that's context relevant for you. Right, someone else
Speaker 2: who's in your zip code, in your social network, who's
Speaker 2: also trying to run a marathon or write a book,
Speaker 2: they have a lot of the same pressures constraints, and
Speaker 2: once you start deliberately trying to learn from them, you
Speaker 2: can get a lot farther.
Speaker 1: So tell me, what what is some things that you've
Speaker 1: copied and pasted from Angela and Hashei Wicks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, one of my favorites. And it's sort of
Speaker 2: embarrassing that I hadn't figured this out sooner. But Angela
Speaker 2: and I both live in downtown Philadelphia, and we commute
Speaker 2: on foot to the university where we work, and you know,
Speaker 2: we neither of us even had cars, I think when
Speaker 2: we first started working together, all of our and there's
Speaker 2: lots of time spent walking across campus to meetings. And
Speaker 2: what Angela had figured out in life, which somehow I hadn't,
Speaker 2: is that every one of those commutes, every one of
Speaker 2: those fifteen twenty thirty minute walks, is actually a an
Speaker 2: opportunity to take a meeting by phone that would otherwise
Speaker 2: occupy time when you could be writing a manuscript or
Speaker 2: doing something else productive at your desk.
Speaker 1: So she always.
Speaker 2: Combined her commutes with those kinds of phone conversations somebody
Speaker 2: a reporter who wanted to ask some questions, a student
Speaker 2: who wanted some advice, and it didn't need to be
Speaker 2: a face to face conversation. So she never wasted those walks.
Speaker 2: Whereas you know, and it's not that it's wasted, right,
Speaker 2: because you might be having thoughts and so on, But
Speaker 2: there was a lot of time in my day that
Speaker 2: involved commuting, since I walked to and from the campus
Speaker 2: and back and forth across it, and some of that
Speaker 2: getting consuming it with these kinds of calls so valuable.
Speaker 2: So I started doing that immediately after I noticed her
Speaker 2: doing it. One day she had actually taken a call
Speaker 2: on a commute to come meet with me, and she
Speaker 2: was explaining, oh, yeah, I always do this, and I
Speaker 2: was like, that is so smart. I cannot believe I
Speaker 2: haven't been combining these things. And it opened up a
Speaker 2: huge amount of time on my calendar for doing deeper
Speaker 2: work at my desk.
Speaker 1: What else have you copy and pasted from Angela? Let's see.
Speaker 2: Another example of something that I think I've copied and
Speaker 2: pasted from Angela is that whenever she is working on
Speaker 2: a new project, she actually goes to the sort of
Speaker 2: world expert and tries to just have a conversation. So
Speaker 2: there's a lot of conversation copying. I used to just
Speaker 2: you know, try to read all the papers and ingest
Speaker 2: all the information and hope that I would be able
Speaker 2: to develop the expertise. I still do that, but she's
Speaker 2: so wise to reach out because the person who's the
Speaker 2: expert on this, you know, it's flattering to hear from
Speaker 2: someone else that they want to learn from you and
Speaker 2: make sure they're getting a science right and share a
Speaker 2: hypothesis and pick your brain for fifteen minutes, and they
Speaker 2: can combine it with a walk across campus, so they're
Speaker 2: normally delighted to say yes. And you can get such
Speaker 2: deep insight from someone who's truly the expert on a
Speaker 2: topic when you're a newbie. That's better than what you'd
Speaker 2: get if you just tried to read everything they've written,
Speaker 2: because there's some subtlety that they'll pick up on and
Speaker 2: whatever it is you're up to. So she really taught
Speaker 2: me to pick up the phone or make that ask,
Speaker 2: to have more conversations with people who have the expertise
Speaker 2: that's necessary than I was before. So I do that
Speaker 2: a lot more now in my work now.
Speaker 1: I loved the forward that Angela wrote in How to Change,
Speaker 1: and I must say I was excited to read How
Speaker 1: to Change before I got the book because I felt
Speaker 1: like I'd heard quite a few people talk about it.
Speaker 1: But then I read the forward that she wrote, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm even more excited to
Speaker 1: read the book now. And one of the things she
Speaker 1: wrote about you is she said that you're really good
Speaker 1: at quickly learning how to do things more efficiently, and
Speaker 1: I'd love to know some examples of things that you've
Speaker 1: made more efficient and how you did it well.
Speaker 2: One thing both Angela and I love is efficiency.
Speaker 1: So there's no.
Speaker 2: Surprise maybe that you know, we both copied and pasted
Speaker 2: things that the other was doing more efficiently than we were,
Speaker 2: and I think we've gotten more efficient in the process.
Speaker 2: One thing that I think has served me really well
Speaker 2: is an obsession with templates, like never write the same
Speaker 2: email twice if you're going to say the same thing,
Speaker 2: for instance. So I have a huge document filled with
Speaker 2: template responses, which isn't to say that they wouldn't be personalized,
Speaker 2: but to the kinds of emails I get a lot, right,
Speaker 2: a student looking for advice on companies where they could
Speaker 2: work if they're interested in behavioral science. Oh, I have
Speaker 2: a template for that student wanting research assistant options. Someone
Speaker 2: reaching out and interested in, you know, whether or not
Speaker 2: I'm taking PhD students next year. Someone would like to
Speaker 2: be a guest on my podcast. Someone who's enthusiastic about
Speaker 2: the book and looking for more places to find advice.
Speaker 2: So there are all sorts of emails that as a
Speaker 2: professor you get at a high frequency, and once you
Speaker 2: start to recognize what those are and see patterns, you
Speaker 2: can instead of creating something from scratch, you can start
Speaker 2: from a template. I sort of think of a lot
Speaker 2: of what we do in life as filling in mad libs.
Speaker 2: And I think once you see things that way, you
Speaker 2: can do less busy work and more deep thoughtful work
Speaker 2: because you can simplify a lot of these processes. Recommendation
Speaker 2: letters are a little bit like that. For me, I
Speaker 2: have a template for writing a student recommendation letter. Of course,
Speaker 2: lots of tailoring is required, but there's sort of a
Speaker 2: structure that can be reused time and again, and that
Speaker 2: simplifies so much in life that you know, really doesn't
Speaker 2: require deep thought and all the time that it would
Speaker 2: take if you recreated the wheel from scratch.
Speaker 1: So do you think you bring like you personally bring
Speaker 1: a different level of consciousness to what you're doing, and
Speaker 1: particularly when you're doing something that is repetitive, like you
Speaker 1: aware of that in the way that you work.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. So when you say repetitive, you mean you
Speaker 2: know something that I've done four times before that I yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 2: Once I noticed that, oh I've I've gotten this kind
Speaker 2: of request or had to respond to this kind of
Speaker 2: ask previously, I'm immediately going to sort of how can
Speaker 2: I how can I not waste bandwidth thinking the same
Speaker 2: thought over and over again, but rather like make this
Speaker 2: more efficient. So the fifth time that I have this
Speaker 2: conversation or get this ask, there's a document to go to.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I do think that's a huge opportunity for
Speaker 2: time saving for many of us, because many of us
Speaker 2: are doing things that resemble I mean, that's how you
Speaker 2: build expertise, right, It's like you you do the same
Speaker 2: kind of thing over and over again. That's part of expertise.
Speaker 2: But trying to be really deliberate about cutting out unnecessary
Speaker 2: work that could just be based on templates is really important.
Speaker 1: I think we will be back with Katie very soon
Speaker 1: hearing about why she started and No Club. If you're
Speaker 1: after even more things to improve the way you work,
Speaker 1: you might want to check out my very first digital course,
Speaker 1: The time Wise Challenge, where I've curated the world's best
Speaker 1: kept secrets and strategies for maximizing productivity to reclaim vital time, energy,
Speaker 1: and creativity. The time Wise Challenge is a four week
Speaker 1: program that will guide you through research based methods and
Speaker 1: tactics to increase your productivity. The program covers four main areas,
Speaker 1: including how to have better meetings, preserve your energy, overcome
Speaker 1: digital distractions, and tame your inbox. Every morning, you'll receive
Speaker 1: an audio lesson from me through WhatsApp, followed by an
Speaker 1: exercise or reflection prompt for the day. You'll also hear
Speaker 1: from some of the world's greatest organizational experts in their
Speaker 1: own words through curated sound bites pulled from our interviews.
Speaker 1: My goal with this program is to make this a daily,
Speaker 1: pocket sized productivity coach, right in the palm of your hand,
Speaker 1: and when you've pleaded the course, you'll have the tools
Speaker 1: to reclaim your time and energy, lead more productive meetings,
Speaker 1: boost team efficiency, and conquer your email inbox. Your first
Speaker 1: step is to sign up and get started today. Visit
Speaker 1: learn dot amantha dot com. That's learn dot amantha dot
Speaker 1: com to get started today. Now you have a NO group.
Speaker 1: Could you tell me about this NO group?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I love my NO club. Yes, it
Speaker 2: is life saving and for so many reasons. Yes, so
Speaker 2: I have a group of it's three of us, three
Speaker 2: women at you know, research intensive business schools, all of
Speaker 2: whom care a lot about doing science, who care a
Speaker 2: lot about communicating about science and being good teachers and
Speaker 2: good citizens. We really are very aligned and similar goals.
Speaker 2: And we learned about this research that had been done
Speaker 2: by a team of a economists led by Linda Babcock
Speaker 2: at Carnegie Mellon University showing that women really struggle to
Speaker 2: say no when asked to do what she calls non
Speaker 2: promotable tasks. So these are things like organizing the office party,
Speaker 2: taking notes at work, giving a talk at an event,
Speaker 2: or sitting on a committee that won't be rewarded in
Speaker 2: any way other than sort of appreciated because it's good citizenship.
Speaker 2: And men and women both get these kinds of asks
Speaker 2: a lot. It's part of being in any organization, and
Speaker 2: women have a lot more trouble saying no than men.
Speaker 2: They spend a lot of time on these kinds of tasks,
Speaker 2: and it can take away from doing things that are
Speaker 2: more valued by their organizations and may prevent them from
Speaker 2: rising to the highest levels. So we learned about this work,
Speaker 2: and we learned that Linda and her collaborators had formed
Speaker 2: a no club of women who would basically reach out
Speaker 2: to each other for second opinions whenever they got an
Speaker 2: ask that fit into this category of something that's not
Speaker 2: part of your job description that they knew wouldn't strictly
Speaker 2: be rewarded by the organization, but that might be worth
Speaker 2: doing because you want to be a good citizen, you
Speaker 2: want to do the right things. And we thought this
Speaker 2: is such a great idea to have this no club,
Speaker 2: because it turns out when we're in an outsider mode,
Speaker 2: when we're evaluating these kinds of asks to someone else,
Speaker 2: it's much easier and clearer for us to say objectively,
Speaker 2: oh no, that's a bad use of time. And when
Speaker 2: it's insider mode, you're thinking about the feelings you might
Speaker 2: hurt and the how are you going to handle everything?
Speaker 2: So we have this no club. We reach out to
Speaker 2: each other whenever we get these kinds of asks, and
Speaker 2: it has been absolutely incredible over the last I think
Speaker 2: it's going seven years and strong now for a bunch
Speaker 2: of reasons, but actually not all reasons I anticipated. So
Speaker 2: I know it would be great to have these incredible
Speaker 2: women on my size or of offering consulting services and
Speaker 2: to offer my own on these kinds of challenges, and
Speaker 2: then I might free up a lot of time and
Speaker 2: help me prioritize better what I didn't fully appreciate when
Speaker 2: we create this is what an amazing community. It would
Speaker 2: build right where these women were already friends, but they've
Speaker 2: become closer because we see each other's struggles.
Speaker 1: We're in touch.
Speaker 2: Regularly, and it's become more like a support group. We
Speaker 2: actually recently added joy Club to No Club so that
Speaker 2: we can celebrate each other's successes, which I love so
Speaker 2: like emails go out. They used to just have a
Speaker 2: tag in front No Club and then people would respond
Speaker 2: right away, but we added joy Club so we could
Speaker 2: share good news with each other and celebrate it. A
Speaker 2: third thing that I didn't anticipate but that I've researched
Speaker 2: and now appreciate more thanks to that is that when
Speaker 2: we give advice to each other, it actually ends up
Speaker 2: helping us too. So I thought that would just be
Speaker 2: you know, it's reciprocity, right, they give me advice, I
Speaker 2: give them advice. That's just sort of the price you
Speaker 2: pay for joining this club, but it's not a price.
Speaker 2: It turns out to be really valuable to me every
Speaker 2: time I see a challenge they're struggling with, because first
Speaker 2: of all, I'm likely to face some similar challenge and
Speaker 2: thinking through in an advance, seeing it without outsider perspective,
Speaker 2: I learn and I build my own confidence because it's
Speaker 2: easy for me to see, oh, this is the right
Speaker 2: way to think about it when it's someone else's problem.
Speaker 2: And then when I face the same challenge myself, I
Speaker 2: feel confident that I can tackle it because I've seen
Speaker 2: it before. So that's actually there's research showing that advice
Speaker 2: giving improves your own confidence and competence, which I got
Speaker 2: to be a part of, and that sort of opened
Speaker 2: my eyes to the power of the advice club, not
Speaker 2: only as a social support group, not only as a
Speaker 2: way to tap into the wisdom of others, but actually
Speaker 2: to build your own confidence and competence as well.
Speaker 1: Now, when I think about you, Katie, and after reading
Speaker 1: your book, I'm like, oh, my gosh, is she just
Speaker 1: like this fountain of motivation? And I'm imagining, of course
Speaker 1: you're not. You are human. So I want to know
Speaker 1: what do you do when you're feeling flat or unmotivated?
Speaker 1: But you have to be working to with something like
Speaker 1: how do you pick yourself back up?
Speaker 2: Oh gosh. Well, so first of all, I should say
Speaker 2: your vision of me is not very accurate. I don't
Speaker 2: think I am a found of motivation. In fact, it's
Speaker 2: funny I joke with lots of people that the work
Speaker 2: I do is not so much research as it is mesearch,
Speaker 2: because I struggle with all these challenges and it's really
Speaker 2: only through you know, applying these tools from behavioral science
Speaker 2: to my own life that I've been able to sort
Speaker 2: of duct tape it all together and get things done.
Speaker 2: I would not I would not be where I am
Speaker 2: if it weren't for all these tools. And there's sort
Speaker 2: of like two kinds of people, I think, who study
Speaker 2: motivation and behavior change and goals. I think there's one
Speaker 2: camp who looks around the world at all the people
Speaker 2: who are struggling and says, like, what's wrong? Why is
Speaker 2: this so hard for them? This is so straightforward, that's
Speaker 2: weird to understand, my fellow humans, I need to study
Speaker 2: this topic. And then there's this other camp which I
Speaker 2: fall into, which is people who have all the challenges
Speaker 2: that like everything feels like an uphill battle, and who realize,
Speaker 2: you know, if I don't figure out some solutions, I'll
Speaker 2: get nowhere. And so then we start studying this and
Speaker 2: its like a self help tool. So I'm definitely in
Speaker 2: that category. I think, you know, when I'm low on motivation,
Speaker 2: I will say I'm big on task variety and tasks switching,
Speaker 2: and that's been a way I've managed my portfolio of
Speaker 2: work really since the beginning, and I always have a
Speaker 2: lot of different projects in different areas. I've studied everything
Speaker 2: from what articles go viral on the New York Times
Speaker 2: website to how can we improve diversity and inclusion outcomes
Speaker 2: and organizations, to how do we get ourselves to exercise more,
Speaker 2: how do we motivate vaccination, how do we help students
Speaker 2: study more? So really wide range of topics I teach.
Speaker 2: I have a podcast, I wrote a book, I have
Speaker 2: a newsletter that I put out monthly. And that diversity
Speaker 2: of projects makes it easy for me when I'm really
Speaker 2: feeling low motivation on one thing, to get a bit
Speaker 2: of a fresh start and a clean slate by switching
Speaker 2: and doing something else, even for an hour, just to
Speaker 2: get my excitement back. And I find I get a
Speaker 2: lot of value from just taking a little bit of
Speaker 2: distance from something that I'm struggling with that I'm not enjoying,
Speaker 2: giving myself a break to be productive on something else briefly,
Speaker 2: and then coming back to it. Often I can find
Speaker 2: my old enthusiasm and of course, sometimes you can't take
Speaker 2: a break and you just have to grind right through,
Speaker 2: and you know, deadlines and commitments to others. You know,
Speaker 2: I promised it by this time, knowing that there's a
Speaker 2: real cost if I don't come through, tends to loom
Speaker 2: large enough that I'll get things done when I have
Speaker 2: to get them done. But the variety helps me a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that interesting that you think about the
Speaker 1: task switching as almost like a medi fresh start, Like
Speaker 1: I've never thought about that before in that context. But
Speaker 1: I know with my own work, I try to block
Speaker 1: outs of about two or three sixty to ninety minute
Speaker 1: sprints for deep work in the morning, and they will
Speaker 1: never be on the same thing. Like, I'm just at
Speaker 1: the tail end of the writing a book process and
Speaker 1: it's being released in July. But when I was congratulations,
Speaker 1: thank you, it's very exciting. Just got the proofs in
Speaker 1: the mail yesterday. Well that is exciting, very exciting, feels real.
Speaker 1: But I remember when I was writing it, I like,
Speaker 1: there's no way I could do three sprints in a
Speaker 1: row on the book because it would just I would
Speaker 1: have lost motivation. So yeah, I'm really I'm encouraged to
Speaker 1: hear that this is like a way to kind of
Speaker 1: pick yourself up when you are lacking in motivation or
Speaker 1: need a bit of a spark when you're working. What
Speaker 1: about failure? How do you deal with failure and setbacks?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I've been really
Speaker 2: influen instant inspired by Carol Dweck's amazing research on the
Speaker 2: importance of having a growth mindset, and I do feel
Speaker 2: that that is something I've really adopted throughout my career,
Speaker 2: throughout my life. So a growth mindset is the idea
Speaker 2: that we aren't fixed in our capability, whether it's our
Speaker 2: intelligence or you know, our skills as a parent or
Speaker 2: as a teacher, or whatever it is. You're trying to
Speaker 2: excel in almost everything. There's an element of effort that
Speaker 2: and growth that's possible through that effort. That so, if
Speaker 2: you have that mindset, when you experience a failure, you
Speaker 2: can interpret it as an opportunity to learn and grow.
Speaker 2: So there's another mindset that a lot of us walk
Speaker 2: around with, which is a fixed mindset where you say,
Speaker 2: you know, anything that goes wrong, it's diagnostic. It tells
Speaker 2: me what I'm capable of. And I have this fixed
Speaker 2: ability and if something goes wrong, it's just telling me, yep,
Speaker 2: I'm not that capable. I'm not going to be able
Speaker 2: to do this. I think having a growth mindset and
Speaker 2: being really deliberate about that in the things you do,
Speaker 2: and saying, what does this failure teach me? How can
Speaker 2: I grow and learn from it, as opposed to just
Speaker 2: letting it feel terrible and thank god, I'm just not
Speaker 2: good enough. The more you can deliberately adopt a growth mindset,
Speaker 2: the better. And this is a big part of being
Speaker 2: an academic. We get a ton of critical feedback. The
Speaker 2: process of publishing a scientific article is basically designed to
Speaker 2: torture your soul because you send a paper, you know,
Speaker 2: something that you've worked on for years that reflects all
Speaker 2: your effort and energy towards understanding this specific hypothesis and
Speaker 2: what's true about and what's not. You send it out
Speaker 2: to a journal. Two or three peers read it and
Speaker 2: basically try to rip it apart. They send back a
Speaker 2: list of all the things that are wrong with it.
Speaker 2: Very rarely do they offer any praise. It's almost exclusively
Speaker 2: this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. Most
Speaker 2: of the time your paper is rejected. Occasionally it's not rejected,
Speaker 2: but it's not accepted. It's They never say it's good enough.
Speaker 2: They say, well, there are all these flaws. If you
Speaker 2: could address all of them, maybe then we'll actually publish it.
Speaker 2: So it was such a daunting, miserable experience the first
Speaker 2: time that happened. But I realized if I sort of
Speaker 2: changed my mindset and tried to adopt a growth mindset
Speaker 2: and see all the ways that this criticism could help
Speaker 2: me grow and become better, so the next time I
Speaker 2: wrote a research article, I wouldn't make these mistakes and
Speaker 2: so that this article could have a bigger impact and
Speaker 2: be better. That would be more fun, highly functional. And
Speaker 2: it's true because I really am learning every time I
Speaker 2: get that criticism, and I can grow and get better,
Speaker 2: and that helps me so much in dealing with all
Speaker 2: of life's failures as trying to adopt that attitude, and
Speaker 2: it's made me a much better scientist.
Speaker 1: Something I was interested in the context of goals sitting
Speaker 1: because often goals like we talk about how they need
Speaker 1: to be concrete and measurable, and I was wondering, how
Speaker 1: do you approach that when it's about a soft skill
Speaker 1: like being a better communicator or getting better like improving
Speaker 1: your presentation skills. How do you set goals for those
Speaker 1: softer kind of things that are harder to measure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, even when it's a soft skill, I think that
Speaker 2: it can be really clear once you sit down and
Speaker 2: make a plan that you're going to have a series
Speaker 2: of action steps you need to take to achieve that
Speaker 2: long run goal. So I'll give you an example. I
Speaker 2: had a student who was a non native English speaker
Speaker 2: who really wanted to improve so she could be a
Speaker 2: fantastic presenter, a fantastic communicator, which is important as a
Speaker 2: scientist in our area in particular. And you know, we
Speaker 2: talked a lot and this was these were her goals,
Speaker 2: but we talked a lot about how is she going
Speaker 2: to do that? And she didn't just decide I'm going
Speaker 2: to try harder. We came up with a series of
Speaker 2: things that we thought would be useful inputs to that.
Speaker 2: They included things like going to toast masters, watching American
Speaker 2: TV shows that covered topics that were actually related to
Speaker 2: her research. So she was interested in medical decision making.
Speaker 2: Gray's Anatomy went on the nightly watch list. She was
Speaker 2: going to sign up to teach a class over the summer.
Speaker 2: So it was a list of action steps that would
Speaker 2: get to that goal of a soft skill. And then
Speaker 2: she had the weekly goals. You know, is she watching
Speaker 2: Gray's Anatomy every night for a half an hour? No,
Speaker 2: poor thing? Is she attending her weekly toastmasters? Is she
Speaker 2: presenting it as many conferences for instance as possible? What
Speaker 2: is she submitted to this month? Is she preparing for
Speaker 2: her summer teaching? So I think even with soft skills,
Speaker 2: it's really it's important to break down. Okay, that's your
Speaker 2: long term goal, but what are the action steps that
Speaker 2: take you closer to it? And what's the weekly or
Speaker 2: daily action you can commit to pursuing in order to
Speaker 2: make some progress on that big overarching goal.
Speaker 1: Now, health and fitness is an area where I feel
Speaker 1: like Sermony paid set goals and give you some interesting
Speaker 1: tactics in your own life to see those goals. Can
Speaker 1: you can you tell me sort of like, what have
Speaker 1: been the most effective strategies you've used there? Yeah?
Speaker 2: My number one has a lot to do with what
Speaker 2: we've been talking about on how important it is to
Speaker 2: make things that might feel like an uphill battle more fun.
Speaker 2: And so I used a tool that I've since studied
Speaker 2: that I call temptation bundling to get myself to exercise regularly.
Speaker 2: When I was a graduate student and my problem specifically was,
Speaker 2: I would come home from a long day of classes
Speaker 2: totally exhausted, and all I wanted to do was, you know, binge,
Speaker 2: watch low brow TV, or curl up on the couch
Speaker 2: with a juicy page turner novel. I wanted indulgent entertainment.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to do my problem sets, and I
Speaker 2: really didn't want to go to the gym, which I
Speaker 2: knew I should do because exercise was really important for
Speaker 2: my health and well being and productivity for but it
Speaker 2: felt like a chore at the end of a long day.
Speaker 2: So I have this idea, which was, what if I
Speaker 2: only let myself indulge in this sort of lowbrow entertainment
Speaker 2: while I'm at the gym. Could I create that rule
Speaker 2: for myself and motivate myself that way to get up
Speaker 2: off the couch and head to the gym before I
Speaker 2: hit the books again and get my homework done. And
Speaker 2: I found that I was able to motivate myself that way,
Speaker 2: So I call it temptation bundling. I got into audiobooks,
Speaker 2: though I know lots of people do it with TV
Speaker 2: and find that useful. Is a little too much sensory
Speaker 2: input for me, But I would listen to lowbrow audio
Speaker 2: books like the Alex Cross series or the Twilight books.
Speaker 2: Harry Potter was the highbrow on my list, and you know,
Speaker 2: I couldn't wait to hear what happened next to Voldemort
Speaker 2: or you know, whatever characters were involved in this. It
Speaker 2: would pull me to the gym at the end of
Speaker 2: a day. I looked forward to those workouts. The time
Speaker 2: would fly by while I was there because I'm so
Speaker 2: engrossed in the story. And then afterwards I felt great.
Speaker 2: I came home, I was rejuvenated, I'd had my rest
Speaker 2: from you know, doing math, and I was ready to
Speaker 2: sit down and focus on the work I needed to
Speaker 2: do that evening. So for me, it was this totally
Speaker 2: magical experience of combining and indulgence with what felt like
Speaker 2: a chore and changing the nature of the chore into
Speaker 2: something that was a source of pleasure in my life.
Speaker 2: And I've since studied temptation bundling and show that it's
Speaker 2: not just for me, it helps other people. When you
Speaker 2: link these sources of pleasure, these sources of temptation, and
Speaker 2: only let yourself do it when you're say at the gym.
Speaker 2: You can do it in other parts of life too, right,
Speaker 2: only letting yourself listen to a favorite podcast with household chores,
Speaker 2: or open a favorite bottle of wine when you're cooking
Speaker 2: a fresh meal for your family. I even had a
Speaker 2: student who told me she only let herself burn her
Speaker 2: favorite scented candles when she was working on her dissertation,
Speaker 2: so she had something that made it really fun. So
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if that would have worked
Speaker 2: for me, frankly, but if you're into the sense, maybe
Speaker 2: that can be for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love temptation bundling, and like you, I've been
Speaker 1: doing it for years. I'm exactly the same with exercise,
Speaker 1: where I'm not a huge fount of reality TV, but
Speaker 1: I love The Bachelor, the US Bachelor specifically. It is
Speaker 1: just the most trashiest fun ever and I feel so
Speaker 1: guilty watching it if I am like just on the couch.
Speaker 1: So so how I get through seasons very slowly is
Speaker 1: when I'm on the exercise bike, And the same for
Speaker 1: my gym workouts. Like there's one podcast that I love
Speaker 1: is Mama Mia out Loud, but it has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with my work. I'm not really learning something that
Speaker 1: I'm going to be able to apply in my careers.
Speaker 1: So I feel slightly guilty listening to it, but then
Speaker 1: I don't. It just brings pure joy when I'm doing
Speaker 1: weight training, and I just I love that strategy so much.
Speaker 1: Now for people all that want to connect with you,
Speaker 1: and obviously everyone needs to just go out and buy
Speaker 1: How to Change because it is such a brilliant, brilliant book.
Speaker 1: What are otherwise that people can connect with you, Katie?
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, Well, I have a podcast called Choiceology that
Speaker 2: listeners might find fun. It's on a very different topic
Speaker 2: than this, but we talk about behavioral biases that can
Speaker 2: lead you to make bad decisions and you're with your finances,
Speaker 2: are actually in any part of your life, and so
Speaker 2: people might enjoy listening to that. And then I have
Speaker 2: a website which is Katiemilkman dot com. So Katie with
Speaker 2: a why like Katie Perry. If that helps, grateful to
Speaker 2: her for popularizing the spelling and confusing fewer people. And
Speaker 2: you can find you know, my research papers there. You
Speaker 2: can sign up for my newsletter Milkman Delivers, and I'm
Speaker 2: on Twitter and Instagram and LinkedIn as Katie Milkman's you
Speaker 2: can follow me on I need of those channels too.
Speaker 1: I put links to all that in the show notes. Kaitie.
Speaker 1: It's just made an absolute privilege to spend the last
Speaker 1: hour with you, so thank you so much for your
Speaker 1: time and all the work that you're putting out into
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: Oh, likewise, thank you so much for having me. This
Speaker 2: was a real treat. I really appreciate you helping me
Speaker 2: spread the word about science that can help us be
Speaker 2: more productive and a chief our calls.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed my chat with Katie and a
Speaker 1: feeling inspired to go and create some change in your life.
Speaker 1: I know for me, I'm going to double down on
Speaker 1: temptation bundling, which is something that I do with exercise,
Speaker 1: but I'm now thinking, hmm, how can I do that
Speaker 1: in other aspects of my life? And if you're enjoying
Speaker 1: How I Work, maybe you might want to leave a
Speaker 1: review for the show. You can do that if you're
Speaker 1: listening in Apple podcasts, just by clicking on the stars
Speaker 1: or writing a comment. How I Work is produced by
Speaker 1: Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer
Speaker 1: for this episode was Liam Ridan, and thank you to
Speaker 1: Martin Nimba who does the audio mix for every episode
Speaker 1: and makes it all sound so much better than it
Speaker 1: would have otherwise. See you next time.