1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: New Year, New me, But does it still count as 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: a new year if it's already March. If you set 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: some lofty goals as part of your resolutions for twenty 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: twenty two, now's when they're truly tested. The optimistic sine 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: of January one has started to wear off, and the 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: new year can start to feel like just another year. 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: So how do you keep your progress chagging along? And 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: what if you don't want to wait until January twenty 9 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: twenty three to set new goals? Thankfully, Katie Milkman wrote 10 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: the book on How to Change. Literally, How to Change 11 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: is packed with science based tips and tricks for how 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: to pursue your goals and become the person you want 13 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: to be. It covers everything from getting to the gym 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: more often, to when you should and shouldn't give other 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 1: people advice. And as a best selling author, podcast home 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: and Wharton professor, Katie's definitely the person to listen to 17 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: when it comes to chasing down and achieving your goals. 18 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: So if you're looking to create any sort of a 19 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 1: change in your life, I can guarantee you that this 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: chat with Katie will arm you with a ton of 21 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: practical ways to make change. Happen. My name is doctor 22 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: Amantha Imbach. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of 23 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work, 24 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: a show about how to help you do your best work. 25 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: Over the Christmas break, I read a ton of books, 26 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: but my favorite book by far was Katie's book How 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: to Change, which is why I reached out to her 28 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: to come on the show. And interestingly, Katie started writing 29 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: this book at the same time she became homeowner. So 30 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: was that timing just a happy coincidence or was it 31 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: something more deliberate. 32 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: I really really use fresh starts in my life to 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 2: motivate new things. And it's something I've studied, and I 34 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: studied it because I did it, and then I do 35 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: it more because I've studied it. So fresh starts are 36 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: these moments when we feel like we're turning the page 37 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 2: on a new chapter because something momentous has happened, something 38 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: that feels like it brackets time for us. So it 39 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: could be something like celebrating a birthday or starting a 40 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 2: new job. It could be the celebration of a new year. 41 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 2: Even the start of a new week actually can be 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: a fresh start, or the start of a new month. 43 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: So these are dates in our lives that they feel 44 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: like they're offering us a new beginning, and because of that, 45 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: we tend to be more motivated to pursue new goals 46 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: at fresh start moments. So we've shown this in data 47 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: set after data set, from when people search for the 48 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 2: term diet on Google to when they visit the gym 49 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 2: at the highest frequency to when they set goals about 50 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: everything from their finances to their health to their environment. 51 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 2: It's a really wide ranging phenomenon, but for me, it's 52 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: come up in particular at moments in life that really 53 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: feel like transition points. They laid me to step back 54 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: and think big picture. And when I bought a new 55 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: home and was thinking about this big change that my 56 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: family was about to make, moving from an apartment to 57 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 2: our first physical house, it felt like a good time 58 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: to think about what was the big new project I 59 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 2: wanted to take on with this move, and I decided 60 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: I'd been thinking about writing a book for years. I 61 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: realized this was a perfect moment to begin. 62 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: Now. I've heard that a goal that you've been working 63 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: on in twenty twenty two is to stay off your 64 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: phone or computer when you're with your six year old son. 65 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about that and how you 66 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: sort of pursuing that goal. 67 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. In fact, writing a book did not help 68 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: with this because so much, especially in the well, especially 69 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: in this era when I haven't been able to do 70 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: so many in person events. A lot of the promotion 71 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: for the book was in the digital world, from going 72 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 2: on podcasts to posting on social media, and that I 73 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: think became an even sort of bigger time sink than 74 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: it was before, and it built some bad habits that 75 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 2: I was definitely ready to get rid of with the 76 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: start of the new year and that opportunity for a 77 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: little boost and motivation, And in particular, I think I 78 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: should be present when I'm around my son as opposed 79 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: to oggling whatever the latest meme is on social media. 80 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: So he gets home right around dinner time and we 81 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 2: don't have that much time together. We only have a 82 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 2: couple of hours before his bedtime, and minew Year's resolution 83 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: was to spend that time without my phone, without my computer, 84 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: fully engaged with him. And it's been great. It's actually 85 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: going quite well. You know. You know, I wouldn't give 86 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 2: myself an A plus. I'd probably give myself an a minus. 87 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: There's been a little. 88 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: Little bit just there always is, But. 89 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 2: Mostly I'm using what I'd call a commitment device, which 90 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 2: is that I leave my phone upstairs and in my office, 91 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 2: and so when I'm downstairs with him, I don't I 92 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 2: have to, you know, literally physically get up go up 93 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: the stairs to find it, to track it down. And 94 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,239 Speaker 2: that makes it hard enough. There's enough of a barrier 95 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: between me and the temptation that I don't mindlessly pick 96 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 2: it up and engage when I should be fully focused 97 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: on him. And it's been really nice to have dinners 98 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: that have no interruptions and to have our family time 99 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: without me, you know, wondering about what's the latest work 100 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: email I need to attend to. 101 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: And can you explain exactly what a commitment device is 102 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: and how you landed on keeping your phone in a 103 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: completely separate area of the house as the one that 104 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: was going to help you change your behavior? Yeah? 105 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely, so. Commitment devices are sort of counterintuitive. They're tools 106 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 2: that constrain our future behavior so we won't fall prey 107 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 2: to temptation. And we're really used to other people imposing 108 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 2: these kinds of rules or sanctions on us for bad 109 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 2: behavior right, Think about the threat of a speeding ticket 110 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: if you go too fast. You might be tempted to speed, 111 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 2: but you know you might get fined, or a restriction 112 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 2: on some recreational drug that you might be tempted to 113 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: use if it weren't illegal and you weren't worried that 114 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: you could get in huge trouble. So those are the 115 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: kinds of restrictions and fines that were used to we're 116 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 2: used to other people imposing them on us. What's funny 117 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: about a commitment device is it's you imposing those kinds 118 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 2: of restrictions on yourself in service of a higher level goal, 119 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: and with an acknowledgment that if you don't take some 120 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 2: action to restrict yourself, you might end up making decisions 121 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: you'll later regret. So an example of a commitment device 122 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: that I just described would be leaving my phone upstairs. 123 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: Now I've imposed a cost on myself. It's not a 124 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 2: cost like a speeding ticket. It's a cost of, you know, 125 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: walking up the stairs. It's a little bit of a 126 00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 2: hassle factor in order to actually access my temptations. A 127 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 2: very minor commitment device. More extreme ones involve things like 128 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: putting money on the line that you'll have to forfeit. 129 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: If you fail to achieve a goal. 130 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 2: Like you know, a twenty dollars fine every week if 131 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: you eat more than one meal that involves French fries 132 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 2: or something along these lines. Then you can define a 133 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: reverree who will hold you accountable to this. And there's 134 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: websites that will literally take your money if you fail 135 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: to achieve these kinds of goals, So you can set 136 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: them up in all different ways, and research has shown 137 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: they're actually very effective tools for helping us achieve more 138 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: because they prevent us from giving into temptation as easily. 139 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: They make it more costly in the moment to give 140 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: into those tugs. 141 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: And how about work, Are there any behaviors that you've 142 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: tried to change where you've used commitment devices like in 143 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: the last few years. 144 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I use commitment devices constantly at work, and 145 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 2: we all do. Actually, we just probably wouldn't realize that 146 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 2: they were commitment devices. So every time you promise a 147 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 2: colleague something by a deadline, you're creating a commitment device, 148 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: right if there wasn't literally a deadline beforehand, and you 149 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: say I'm going to get that to you by Friday, 150 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: that is a commitment device, because now this person's going 151 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,119 Speaker 2: to be disappointed in you if you don't actually follow through. 152 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: By giving yourself a deadline, you have made it harder 153 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: to procrastinate on this task, and you've made it so 154 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: someone's going to hold you accountable for executing and you'll 155 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: feel a little shame if you don't actually get it 156 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 2: in by Friday. So every deadline we set that isn't required, 157 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: those deadlines are commitment devices. Every time that we set 158 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 2: aside a block of time to work on something, right, 159 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 2: you put something on your calendar that isn't just a 160 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: phone call or some other kind of meeting. You block 161 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 2: time on your calendar and say, you know, this is 162 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: protected time for purpose X. That's also a commitment device, 163 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: because now you're going to feel a little paying of 164 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: shame if you don't accomplish whatever task it is you 165 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: set out to accomplish for yourself in that time. You've 166 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 2: created boundaries around it, and you've a sense of stronger 167 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: commitment to it. These are a weak examples of commitment 168 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 2: device right there. They pale in comparison to putting thousands 169 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: of dollars on the line. For instance, if you fail 170 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: to achieve some specific goal. But they can be very 171 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: useful and I use them frequently. I'm frequently block time. 172 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 2: I always promise people things by a certain deadline in 173 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 2: order to make sure that I have a clear goal, 174 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: even if it's a task that I could put off, 175 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 2: and definitely if it's something that I want to prioritize 176 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: and get done, I choose a date by which I 177 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: promise it to a person. 178 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: That's funny. I've recently started saying to my team who 179 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: were occasionally saying, Amantha, I'm still waiting for you to 180 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: respond to that email that I said several weeks ago. 181 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, just give me a deadline, just give me 182 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: a fake deadline, and then I will get it done. Sorry, exactly. Yeah, 183 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: it just it's so effective. Now. There are so many 184 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: different strategies in how to change, and I'd love to 185 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: know when you're writing the book, which of the strategies 186 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: impacted the way you work the most, or do you 187 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: find the most powerful. Let's see. 188 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 2: I think probably the most important in terms of the 189 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 2: way I work is the research that's been done on 190 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 2: social norms and conformity, or how the people around us 191 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 2: shape our productivity, our happiness and our behavior more generally, 192 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 2: and I think recognizing that and recognizing that I could 193 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 2: be thoughtful about how I constructed the teams that I 194 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: work with and how I learned from the people who 195 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: are around me has been one of the most important 196 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: things to my work as an academic. It's an unusual 197 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: profession and that you have the opportunity to create your 198 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: own team every time you start a project. So in 199 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: most lines of work there's some more constraints, but in academia, 200 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 2: you essentially it's like a little startup company. Every time 201 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 2: you have a hypothesis, you want to go out and test, 202 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: and you get to decide who am I going to 203 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 2: recruit to work on this startup project with me? And 204 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: so I have been very thoughtful and careful about the 205 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: people who I invite to collaborate with me, with a 206 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 2: recognition of what they would bring to not only in 207 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: terms of ideas and background and knowledge that they would 208 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 2: bring to a collaboration, but what they would help me 209 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: accomplish as a person with developmental goals. And I try 210 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 2: to work with other people who stretch me and who 211 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: teach me new skills and who I love being around 212 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 2: because I know that fun is really important to productivity, 213 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 2: and if you enjoy the work you're doing, it turns 214 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 2: out that you can be much more effective and you'll 215 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 2: persist much longer on difficult goals. So I found that 216 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: the fund can be social and that working with people 217 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 2: who I really enjoy makes me love my work and 218 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: persist longer. And I also use this tool that Angela Duckworth, 219 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 2: who's one of the most fun people to work with, 220 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: a best selling author of Grit and a frequent collaborator 221 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: of mine, who maybe sort of best personifies the sort 222 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 2: of part of my life and choosing her as a 223 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 2: frequent collaborator has been a wonderful experience. But she and 224 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 2: I wrote about something we call copy and paste, which 225 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: we have both done with each other's lives, which is, 226 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 2: there's someone who you are spending time with who is 227 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: pushing towards a similar goal, and often we're not very 228 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: deliberate about trying to figure out what are the things 229 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 2: that they're doing that are working that we could emulate. 230 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 2: But when we gave people in one research study a 231 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 2: little nudge to go find someone with a shared goal 232 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: who was actually doing better and achieving it and ask 233 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 2: them what are they, what are some of their strategies, 234 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: and then choose one to copy. People ended up doing 235 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 2: a lot better than when we just said, you know, 236 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: go make a plan, go try to figure out a 237 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: way to get better, or when we gave them lists 238 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: of hacks that other people had generated. It was better 239 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 2: to go find someone in your social network, someone who 240 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 2: was close to you, who you could emulate, than to 241 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 2: get sort of arbitrarily collected hacks or to just try 242 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: to make a plan in isolation, because other people know 243 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 2: so much that's context relevant for you. Right, someone else 244 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 2: who's in your zip code, in your social network, who's 245 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: also trying to run a marathon or write a book, 246 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: they have a lot of the same pressures constraints, and 247 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: once you start deliberately trying to learn from them, you 248 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: can get a lot farther. 249 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: So tell me, what what is some things that you've 250 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: copied and pasted from Angela and Hashei Wicks. 251 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, one of my favorites. And it's sort of 252 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: embarrassing that I hadn't figured this out sooner. But Angela 253 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 2: and I both live in downtown Philadelphia, and we commute 254 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 2: on foot to the university where we work, and you know, 255 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: we neither of us even had cars, I think when 256 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 2: we first started working together, all of our and there's 257 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: lots of time spent walking across campus to meetings. And 258 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: what Angela had figured out in life, which somehow I hadn't, 259 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 2: is that every one of those commutes, every one of 260 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 2: those fifteen twenty thirty minute walks, is actually a an 261 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: opportunity to take a meeting by phone that would otherwise 262 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 2: occupy time when you could be writing a manuscript or 263 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 2: doing something else productive at your desk. 264 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: So she always. 265 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: Combined her commutes with those kinds of phone conversations somebody 266 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: a reporter who wanted to ask some questions, a student 267 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: who wanted some advice, and it didn't need to be 268 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: a face to face conversation. So she never wasted those walks. 269 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 2: Whereas you know, and it's not that it's wasted, right, 270 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: because you might be having thoughts and so on, But 271 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: there was a lot of time in my day that 272 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 2: involved commuting, since I walked to and from the campus 273 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 2: and back and forth across it, and some of that 274 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: getting consuming it with these kinds of calls so valuable. 275 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: So I started doing that immediately after I noticed her 276 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: doing it. One day she had actually taken a call 277 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: on a commute to come meet with me, and she 278 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: was explaining, oh, yeah, I always do this, and I 279 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 2: was like, that is so smart. I cannot believe I 280 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: haven't been combining these things. And it opened up a 281 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: huge amount of time on my calendar for doing deeper 282 00:14:59,040 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: work at my desk. 283 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: What else have you copy and pasted from Angela? Let's see. 284 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 2: Another example of something that I think I've copied and 285 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: pasted from Angela is that whenever she is working on 286 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 2: a new project, she actually goes to the sort of 287 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: world expert and tries to just have a conversation. So 288 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 2: there's a lot of conversation copying. I used to just 289 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: you know, try to read all the papers and ingest 290 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: all the information and hope that I would be able 291 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: to develop the expertise. I still do that, but she's 292 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 2: so wise to reach out because the person who's the 293 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: expert on this, you know, it's flattering to hear from 294 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: someone else that they want to learn from you and 295 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: make sure they're getting a science right and share a 296 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: hypothesis and pick your brain for fifteen minutes, and they 297 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: can combine it with a walk across campus, so they're 298 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 2: normally delighted to say yes. And you can get such 299 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: deep insight from someone who's truly the expert on a 300 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 2: topic when you're a newbie. That's better than what you'd 301 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: get if you just tried to read everything they've written, 302 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 2: because there's some subtlety that they'll pick up on and 303 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 2: whatever it is you're up to. So she really taught 304 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: me to pick up the phone or make that ask, 305 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,479 Speaker 2: to have more conversations with people who have the expertise 306 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: that's necessary than I was before. So I do that 307 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: a lot more now in my work now. 308 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: I loved the forward that Angela wrote in How to Change, 309 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: and I must say I was excited to read How 310 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: to Change before I got the book because I felt 311 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: like I'd heard quite a few people talk about it. 312 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: But then I read the forward that she wrote, and 313 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm even more excited to 314 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: read the book now. And one of the things she 315 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: wrote about you is she said that you're really good 316 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: at quickly learning how to do things more efficiently, and 317 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: I'd love to know some examples of things that you've 318 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: made more efficient and how you did it well. 319 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 2: One thing both Angela and I love is efficiency. 320 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: So there's no. 321 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: Surprise maybe that you know, we both copied and pasted 322 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: things that the other was doing more efficiently than we were, 323 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 2: and I think we've gotten more efficient in the process. 324 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: One thing that I think has served me really well 325 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 2: is an obsession with templates, like never write the same 326 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 2: email twice if you're going to say the same thing, 327 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 2: for instance. So I have a huge document filled with 328 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 2: template responses, which isn't to say that they wouldn't be personalized, 329 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 2: but to the kinds of emails I get a lot, right, 330 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 2: a student looking for advice on companies where they could 331 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 2: work if they're interested in behavioral science. Oh, I have 332 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: a template for that student wanting research assistant options. Someone 333 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 2: reaching out and interested in, you know, whether or not 334 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: I'm taking PhD students next year. Someone would like to 335 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: be a guest on my podcast. Someone who's enthusiastic about 336 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 2: the book and looking for more places to find advice. 337 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 2: So there are all sorts of emails that as a 338 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 2: professor you get at a high frequency, and once you 339 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 2: start to recognize what those are and see patterns, you 340 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 2: can instead of creating something from scratch, you can start 341 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: from a template. I sort of think of a lot 342 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 2: of what we do in life as filling in mad libs. 343 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 2: And I think once you see things that way, you 344 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: can do less busy work and more deep thoughtful work 345 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,719 Speaker 2: because you can simplify a lot of these processes. Recommendation 346 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 2: letters are a little bit like that. For me, I 347 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 2: have a template for writing a student recommendation letter. Of course, 348 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 2: lots of tailoring is required, but there's sort of a 349 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: structure that can be reused time and again, and that 350 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 2: simplifies so much in life that you know, really doesn't 351 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 2: require deep thought and all the time that it would 352 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 2: take if you recreated the wheel from scratch. 353 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: So do you think you bring like you personally bring 354 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: a different level of consciousness to what you're doing, and 355 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: particularly when you're doing something that is repetitive, like you 356 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: aware of that in the way that you work. 357 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: That's interesting. So when you say repetitive, you mean you 358 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 2: know something that I've done four times before that I yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. 359 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 2: Once I noticed that, oh I've I've gotten this kind 360 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 2: of request or had to respond to this kind of 361 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 2: ask previously, I'm immediately going to sort of how can 362 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 2: I how can I not waste bandwidth thinking the same 363 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 2: thought over and over again, but rather like make this 364 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: more efficient. So the fifth time that I have this 365 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: conversation or get this ask, there's a document to go to. 366 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 2: So yeah, I do think that's a huge opportunity for 367 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: time saving for many of us, because many of us 368 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 2: are doing things that resemble I mean, that's how you 369 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: build expertise, right, It's like you you do the same 370 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: kind of thing over and over again. That's part of expertise. 371 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: But trying to be really deliberate about cutting out unnecessary 372 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 2: work that could just be based on templates is really important. 373 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: I think we will be back with Katie very soon 374 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: hearing about why she started and No Club. If you're 375 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: after even more things to improve the way you work, 376 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: you might want to check out my very first digital course, 377 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: The time Wise Challenge, where I've curated the world's best 378 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: kept secrets and strategies for maximizing productivity to reclaim vital time, energy, 379 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: and creativity. The time Wise Challenge is a four week 380 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: program that will guide you through research based methods and 381 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: tactics to increase your productivity. The program covers four main areas, 382 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: including how to have better meetings, preserve your energy, overcome 383 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: digital distractions, and tame your inbox. Every morning, you'll receive 384 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: an audio lesson from me through WhatsApp, followed by an 385 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: exercise or reflection prompt for the day. You'll also hear 386 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: from some of the world's greatest organizational experts in their 387 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: own words through curated sound bites pulled from our interviews. 388 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: My goal with this program is to make this a daily, 389 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: pocket sized productivity coach, right in the palm of your hand, 390 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: and when you've pleaded the course, you'll have the tools 391 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: to reclaim your time and energy, lead more productive meetings, 392 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: boost team efficiency, and conquer your email inbox. Your first 393 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: step is to sign up and get started today. Visit 394 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: learn dot amantha dot com. That's learn dot amantha dot 395 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: com to get started today. Now you have a NO group. 396 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: Could you tell me about this NO group? 397 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I love my NO club. Yes, it 398 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 2: is life saving and for so many reasons. Yes, so 399 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: I have a group of it's three of us, three 400 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: women at you know, research intensive business schools, all of 401 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: whom care a lot about doing science, who care a 402 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 2: lot about communicating about science and being good teachers and 403 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 2: good citizens. We really are very aligned and similar goals. 404 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 2: And we learned about this research that had been done 405 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 2: by a team of a economists led by Linda Babcock 406 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 2: at Carnegie Mellon University showing that women really struggle to 407 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: say no when asked to do what she calls non 408 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: promotable tasks. So these are things like organizing the office party, 409 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: taking notes at work, giving a talk at an event, 410 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,479 Speaker 2: or sitting on a committee that won't be rewarded in 411 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 2: any way other than sort of appreciated because it's good citizenship. 412 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 2: And men and women both get these kinds of asks 413 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 2: a lot. It's part of being in any organization, and 414 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 2: women have a lot more trouble saying no than men. 415 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 2: They spend a lot of time on these kinds of tasks, 416 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: and it can take away from doing things that are 417 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: more valued by their organizations and may prevent them from 418 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: rising to the highest levels. So we learned about this work, 419 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: and we learned that Linda and her collaborators had formed 420 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 2: a no club of women who would basically reach out 421 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 2: to each other for second opinions whenever they got an 422 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 2: ask that fit into this category of something that's not 423 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 2: part of your job description that they knew wouldn't strictly 424 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 2: be rewarded by the organization, but that might be worth 425 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 2: doing because you want to be a good citizen, you 426 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: want to do the right things. And we thought this 427 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 2: is such a great idea to have this no club, 428 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: because it turns out when we're in an outsider mode, 429 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 2: when we're evaluating these kinds of asks to someone else, 430 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: it's much easier and clearer for us to say objectively, 431 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 2: oh no, that's a bad use of time. And when 432 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 2: it's insider mode, you're thinking about the feelings you might 433 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 2: hurt and the how are you going to handle everything? 434 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: So we have this no club. We reach out to 435 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 2: each other whenever we get these kinds of asks, and 436 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 2: it has been absolutely incredible over the last I think 437 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 2: it's going seven years and strong now for a bunch 438 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 2: of reasons, but actually not all reasons I anticipated. So 439 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: I know it would be great to have these incredible 440 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 2: women on my size or of offering consulting services and 441 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 2: to offer my own on these kinds of challenges, and 442 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 2: then I might free up a lot of time and 443 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 2: help me prioritize better what I didn't fully appreciate when 444 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: we create this is what an amazing community. It would 445 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 2: build right where these women were already friends, but they've 446 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: become closer because we see each other's struggles. 447 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: We're in touch. 448 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: Regularly, and it's become more like a support group. We 449 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 2: actually recently added joy Club to No Club so that 450 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: we can celebrate each other's successes, which I love so 451 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: like emails go out. They used to just have a 452 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 2: tag in front No Club and then people would respond 453 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: right away, but we added joy Club so we could 454 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 2: share good news with each other and celebrate it. A 455 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: third thing that I didn't anticipate but that I've researched 456 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: and now appreciate more thanks to that is that when 457 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 2: we give advice to each other, it actually ends up 458 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: helping us too. So I thought that would just be 459 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 2: you know, it's reciprocity, right, they give me advice, I 460 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 2: give them advice. That's just sort of the price you 461 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 2: pay for joining this club, but it's not a price. 462 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 2: It turns out to be really valuable to me every 463 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 2: time I see a challenge they're struggling with, because first 464 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: of all, I'm likely to face some similar challenge and 465 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 2: thinking through in an advance, seeing it without outsider perspective, 466 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 2: I learn and I build my own confidence because it's 467 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: easy for me to see, oh, this is the right 468 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: way to think about it when it's someone else's problem. 469 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 2: And then when I face the same challenge myself, I 470 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 2: feel confident that I can tackle it because I've seen 471 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 2: it before. So that's actually there's research showing that advice 472 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 2: giving improves your own confidence and competence, which I got 473 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,479 Speaker 2: to be a part of, and that sort of opened 474 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 2: my eyes to the power of the advice club, not 475 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: only as a social support group, not only as a 476 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 2: way to tap into the wisdom of others, but actually 477 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 2: to build your own confidence and competence as well. 478 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: Now, when I think about you, Katie, and after reading 479 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: your book, I'm like, oh, my gosh, is she just 480 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: like this fountain of motivation? And I'm imagining, of course 481 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: you're not. You are human. So I want to know 482 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: what do you do when you're feeling flat or unmotivated? 483 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: But you have to be working to with something like 484 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: how do you pick yourself back up? 485 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 2: Oh gosh. Well, so first of all, I should say 486 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 2: your vision of me is not very accurate. I don't 487 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: think I am a found of motivation. In fact, it's 488 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: funny I joke with lots of people that the work 489 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 2: I do is not so much research as it is mesearch, 490 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 2: because I struggle with all these challenges and it's really 491 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 2: only through you know, applying these tools from behavioral science 492 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: to my own life that I've been able to sort 493 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 2: of duct tape it all together and get things done. 494 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 2: I would not I would not be where I am 495 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: if it weren't for all these tools. And there's sort 496 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 2: of like two kinds of people, I think, who study 497 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 2: motivation and behavior change and goals. I think there's one 498 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 2: camp who looks around the world at all the people 499 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: who are struggling and says, like, what's wrong? Why is 500 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 2: this so hard for them? This is so straightforward, that's 501 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: weird to understand, my fellow humans, I need to study 502 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: this topic. And then there's this other camp which I 503 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 2: fall into, which is people who have all the challenges 504 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 2: that like everything feels like an uphill battle, and who realize, 505 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: you know, if I don't figure out some solutions, I'll 506 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 2: get nowhere. And so then we start studying this and 507 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 2: its like a self help tool. So I'm definitely in 508 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 2: that category. I think, you know, when I'm low on motivation, 509 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: I will say I'm big on task variety and tasks switching, 510 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: and that's been a way I've managed my portfolio of 511 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: work really since the beginning, and I always have a 512 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 2: lot of different projects in different areas. I've studied everything 513 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 2: from what articles go viral on the New York Times 514 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 2: website to how can we improve diversity and inclusion outcomes 515 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: and organizations, to how do we get ourselves to exercise more, 516 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: how do we motivate vaccination, how do we help students 517 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 2: study more? So really wide range of topics I teach. 518 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 2: I have a podcast, I wrote a book, I have 519 00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 2: a newsletter that I put out monthly. And that diversity 520 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 2: of projects makes it easy for me when I'm really 521 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 2: feeling low motivation on one thing, to get a bit 522 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 2: of a fresh start and a clean slate by switching 523 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 2: and doing something else, even for an hour, just to 524 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 2: get my excitement back. And I find I get a 525 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 2: lot of value from just taking a little bit of 526 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 2: distance from something that I'm struggling with that I'm not enjoying, 527 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 2: giving myself a break to be productive on something else briefly, 528 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: and then coming back to it. Often I can find 529 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: my old enthusiasm and of course, sometimes you can't take 530 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: a break and you just have to grind right through, 531 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 2: and you know, deadlines and commitments to others. You know, 532 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 2: I promised it by this time, knowing that there's a 533 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 2: real cost if I don't come through, tends to loom 534 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 2: large enough that I'll get things done when I have 535 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 2: to get them done. But the variety helps me a lot. 536 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that interesting that you think about the 537 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: task switching as almost like a medi fresh start, Like 538 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: I've never thought about that before in that context. But 539 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: I know with my own work, I try to block 540 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: outs of about two or three sixty to ninety minute 541 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: sprints for deep work in the morning, and they will 542 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: never be on the same thing. Like, I'm just at 543 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: the tail end of the writing a book process and 544 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: it's being released in July. But when I was congratulations, 545 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: thank you, it's very exciting. Just got the proofs in 546 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: the mail yesterday. Well that is exciting, very exciting, feels real. 547 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: But I remember when I was writing it, I like, 548 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: there's no way I could do three sprints in a 549 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: row on the book because it would just I would 550 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: have lost motivation. So yeah, I'm really I'm encouraged to 551 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: hear that this is like a way to kind of 552 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: pick yourself up when you are lacking in motivation or 553 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: need a bit of a spark when you're working. What 554 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: about failure? How do you deal with failure and setbacks? 555 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I've been really 556 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 2: influen instant inspired by Carol Dweck's amazing research on the 557 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 2: importance of having a growth mindset, and I do feel 558 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 2: that that is something I've really adopted throughout my career, 559 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 2: throughout my life. So a growth mindset is the idea 560 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 2: that we aren't fixed in our capability, whether it's our 561 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 2: intelligence or you know, our skills as a parent or 562 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 2: as a teacher, or whatever it is. You're trying to 563 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 2: excel in almost everything. There's an element of effort that 564 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: and growth that's possible through that effort. That so, if 565 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 2: you have that mindset, when you experience a failure, you 566 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 2: can interpret it as an opportunity to learn and grow. 567 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 2: So there's another mindset that a lot of us walk 568 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 2: around with, which is a fixed mindset where you say, 569 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 2: you know, anything that goes wrong, it's diagnostic. It tells 570 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 2: me what I'm capable of. And I have this fixed 571 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 2: ability and if something goes wrong, it's just telling me, yep, 572 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 2: I'm not that capable. I'm not going to be able 573 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: to do this. I think having a growth mindset and 574 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 2: being really deliberate about that in the things you do, 575 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 2: and saying, what does this failure teach me? How can 576 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 2: I grow and learn from it, as opposed to just 577 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 2: letting it feel terrible and thank god, I'm just not 578 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 2: good enough. The more you can deliberately adopt a growth mindset, 579 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: the better. And this is a big part of being 580 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 2: an academic. We get a ton of critical feedback. The 581 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 2: process of publishing a scientific article is basically designed to 582 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 2: torture your soul because you send a paper, you know, 583 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 2: something that you've worked on for years that reflects all 584 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 2: your effort and energy towards understanding this specific hypothesis and 585 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 2: what's true about and what's not. You send it out 586 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 2: to a journal. Two or three peers read it and 587 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 2: basically try to rip it apart. They send back a 588 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 2: list of all the things that are wrong with it. 589 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 2: Very rarely do they offer any praise. It's almost exclusively 590 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 2: this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. Most 591 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 2: of the time your paper is rejected. Occasionally it's not rejected, 592 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: but it's not accepted. It's They never say it's good enough. 593 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: They say, well, there are all these flaws. If you 594 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,239 Speaker 2: could address all of them, maybe then we'll actually publish it. 595 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 2: So it was such a daunting, miserable experience the first 596 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 2: time that happened. But I realized if I sort of 597 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 2: changed my mindset and tried to adopt a growth mindset 598 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: and see all the ways that this criticism could help 599 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: me grow and become better, so the next time I 600 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 2: wrote a research article, I wouldn't make these mistakes and 601 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: so that this article could have a bigger impact and 602 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 2: be better. That would be more fun, highly functional. And 603 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 2: it's true because I really am learning every time I 604 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 2: get that criticism, and I can grow and get better, 605 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 2: and that helps me so much in dealing with all 606 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 2: of life's failures as trying to adopt that attitude, and 607 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 2: it's made me a much better scientist. 608 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: Something I was interested in the context of goals sitting 609 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: because often goals like we talk about how they need 610 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: to be concrete and measurable, and I was wondering, how 611 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: do you approach that when it's about a soft skill 612 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: like being a better communicator or getting better like improving 613 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: your presentation skills. How do you set goals for those 614 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: softer kind of things that are harder to measure. 615 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, even when it's a soft skill, I think that 616 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 2: it can be really clear once you sit down and 617 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 2: make a plan that you're going to have a series 618 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: of action steps you need to take to achieve that 619 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 2: long run goal. So I'll give you an example. I 620 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: had a student who was a non native English speaker 621 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 2: who really wanted to improve so she could be a 622 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 2: fantastic presenter, a fantastic communicator, which is important as a 623 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 2: scientist in our area in particular. And you know, we 624 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 2: talked a lot and this was these were her goals, 625 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 2: but we talked a lot about how is she going 626 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 2: to do that? And she didn't just decide I'm going 627 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 2: to try harder. We came up with a series of 628 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 2: things that we thought would be useful inputs to that. 629 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 2: They included things like going to toast masters, watching American 630 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: TV shows that covered topics that were actually related to 631 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 2: her research. So she was interested in medical decision making. 632 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 2: Gray's Anatomy went on the nightly watch list. She was 633 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 2: going to sign up to teach a class over the summer. 634 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 2: So it was a list of action steps that would 635 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: get to that goal of a soft skill. And then 636 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 2: she had the weekly goals. You know, is she watching 637 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 2: Gray's Anatomy every night for a half an hour? No, 638 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 2: poor thing? Is she attending her weekly toastmasters? Is she 639 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 2: presenting it as many conferences for instance as possible? What 640 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 2: is she submitted to this month? Is she preparing for 641 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 2: her summer teaching? So I think even with soft skills, 642 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: it's really it's important to break down. Okay, that's your 643 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 2: long term goal, but what are the action steps that 644 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 2: take you closer to it? And what's the weekly or 645 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: daily action you can commit to pursuing in order to 646 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,959 Speaker 2: make some progress on that big overarching goal. 647 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 1: Now, health and fitness is an area where I feel 648 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: like Sermony paid set goals and give you some interesting 649 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: tactics in your own life to see those goals. Can 650 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 1: you can you tell me sort of like, what have 651 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: been the most effective strategies you've used there? Yeah? 652 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 2: My number one has a lot to do with what 653 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 2: we've been talking about on how important it is to 654 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 2: make things that might feel like an uphill battle more fun. 655 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 2: And so I used a tool that I've since studied 656 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 2: that I call temptation bundling to get myself to exercise regularly. 657 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 2: When I was a graduate student and my problem specifically was, 658 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 2: I would come home from a long day of classes 659 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 2: totally exhausted, and all I wanted to do was, you know, binge, 660 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 2: watch low brow TV, or curl up on the couch 661 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 2: with a juicy page turner novel. I wanted indulgent entertainment. 662 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 2: I didn't want to do my problem sets, and I 663 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 2: really didn't want to go to the gym, which I 664 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 2: knew I should do because exercise was really important for 665 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 2: my health and well being and productivity for but it 666 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 2: felt like a chore at the end of a long day. 667 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 2: So I have this idea, which was, what if I 668 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 2: only let myself indulge in this sort of lowbrow entertainment 669 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: while I'm at the gym. Could I create that rule 670 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 2: for myself and motivate myself that way to get up 671 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 2: off the couch and head to the gym before I 672 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 2: hit the books again and get my homework done. And 673 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 2: I found that I was able to motivate myself that way, 674 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 2: So I call it temptation bundling. I got into audiobooks, 675 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 2: though I know lots of people do it with TV 676 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 2: and find that useful. Is a little too much sensory 677 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 2: input for me, But I would listen to lowbrow audio 678 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 2: books like the Alex Cross series or the Twilight books. 679 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 2: Harry Potter was the highbrow on my list, and you know, 680 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 2: I couldn't wait to hear what happened next to Voldemort 681 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 2: or you know, whatever characters were involved in this. It 682 00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 2: would pull me to the gym at the end of 683 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 2: a day. I looked forward to those workouts. The time 684 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 2: would fly by while I was there because I'm so 685 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 2: engrossed in the story. And then afterwards I felt great. 686 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 2: I came home, I was rejuvenated, I'd had my rest 687 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 2: from you know, doing math, and I was ready to 688 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 2: sit down and focus on the work I needed to 689 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 2: do that evening. So for me, it was this totally 690 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 2: magical experience of combining and indulgence with what felt like 691 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 2: a chore and changing the nature of the chore into 692 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 2: something that was a source of pleasure in my life. 693 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 2: And I've since studied temptation bundling and show that it's 694 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 2: not just for me, it helps other people. When you 695 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 2: link these sources of pleasure, these sources of temptation, and 696 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 2: only let yourself do it when you're say at the gym. 697 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 2: You can do it in other parts of life too, right, 698 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 2: only letting yourself listen to a favorite podcast with household chores, 699 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 2: or open a favorite bottle of wine when you're cooking 700 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 2: a fresh meal for your family. I even had a 701 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 2: student who told me she only let herself burn her 702 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 2: favorite scented candles when she was working on her dissertation, 703 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 2: so she had something that made it really fun. So 704 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if that would have worked 705 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 2: for me, frankly, but if you're into the sense, maybe 706 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 2: that can be for you. 707 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love temptation bundling, and like you, I've been 708 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: doing it for years. I'm exactly the same with exercise, 709 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: where I'm not a huge fount of reality TV, but 710 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 1: I love The Bachelor, the US Bachelor specifically. It is 711 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: just the most trashiest fun ever and I feel so 712 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: guilty watching it if I am like just on the couch. 713 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: So so how I get through seasons very slowly is 714 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: when I'm on the exercise bike, And the same for 715 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,439 Speaker 1: my gym workouts. Like there's one podcast that I love 716 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: is Mama Mia out Loud, but it has nothing to 717 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: do with my work. I'm not really learning something that 718 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to be able to apply in my careers. 719 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: So I feel slightly guilty listening to it, but then 720 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,720 Speaker 1: I don't. It just brings pure joy when I'm doing 721 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: weight training, and I just I love that strategy so much. 722 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: Now for people all that want to connect with you, 723 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: and obviously everyone needs to just go out and buy 724 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: How to Change because it is such a brilliant, brilliant book. 725 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: What are otherwise that people can connect with you, Katie? 726 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, Well, I have a podcast called Choiceology that 727 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 2: listeners might find fun. It's on a very different topic 728 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 2: than this, but we talk about behavioral biases that can 729 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 2: lead you to make bad decisions and you're with your finances, 730 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 2: are actually in any part of your life, and so 731 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 2: people might enjoy listening to that. And then I have 732 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 2: a website which is Katiemilkman dot com. So Katie with 733 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 2: a why like Katie Perry. If that helps, grateful to 734 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 2: her for popularizing the spelling and confusing fewer people. And 735 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 2: you can find you know, my research papers there. You 736 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,439 Speaker 2: can sign up for my newsletter Milkman Delivers, and I'm 737 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 2: on Twitter and Instagram and LinkedIn as Katie Milkman's you 738 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: can follow me on I need of those channels too. 739 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: I put links to all that in the show notes. Kaitie. 740 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,720 Speaker 1: It's just made an absolute privilege to spend the last 741 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,879 Speaker 1: hour with you, so thank you so much for your 742 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: time and all the work that you're putting out into 743 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: the world. 744 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 2: Oh, likewise, thank you so much for having me. This 745 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 2: was a real treat. I really appreciate you helping me 746 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 2: spread the word about science that can help us be 747 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 2: more productive and a chief our calls. 748 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed my chat with Katie and a 749 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,800 Speaker 1: feeling inspired to go and create some change in your life. 750 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 1: I know for me, I'm going to double down on 751 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 1: temptation bundling, which is something that I do with exercise, 752 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: but I'm now thinking, hmm, how can I do that 753 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: in other aspects of my life? And if you're enjoying 754 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: How I Work, maybe you might want to leave a 755 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: review for the show. You can do that if you're 756 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: listening in Apple podcasts, just by clicking on the stars 757 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: or writing a comment. How I Work is produced by 758 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,760 Speaker 1: Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer 759 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: for this episode was Liam Ridan, and thank you to 760 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: Martin Nimba who does the audio mix for every episode 761 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: and makes it all sound so much better than it 762 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: would have otherwise. See you next time.