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Speaker 1: Today how to overcome helicopter parenting? What do you do

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Speaker 1: when you are hovering or when your child becomes anxious

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Speaker 1: because previously you have been a hoverer. That's what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about today on the Happy Families podcast. Welcome real

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Speaker 1: parenting solutions. Every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast,

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Speaker 1: we are Justin and Kylie Coulson, and every Tuesday on

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Speaker 1: the podcast we answer your tricky questions. You can send

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Speaker 1: them to us via Happy families dot com. Do you

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Speaker 1: just go to the podcast page, scroll down to where

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Speaker 1: it says talk to us and leave us your message,

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Speaker 1: just like Amy has done in Melbourne.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Justin and Kylie. I'm a self diagnosed helicopter parent.

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Speaker 2: I want to be more autonomy supportive and I'm getting better.

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Speaker 2: But now I have a nine year old helicopter daughter.

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Speaker 2: We don't live in the neighborhood where I can just

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Speaker 2: let them outside. We're off a main road and they're

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Speaker 2: known predators approaching kids around us. How do I undo

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Speaker 2: this anxiety I've passed on and get my order doing

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Speaker 2: riskier activities, but also keep her safe. Thanks and advance.

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Speaker 3: I just saw your eyes light up. I'm guessing you

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Speaker 3: want to geek out on some academics, don't you, oh.

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Speaker 1: A little bit? I mean my eyes light up because

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Speaker 1: I think tricky questions are great. But aside from academics,

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Speaker 1: there was one thought that popped into my head that

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Speaker 1: I think is really critical.

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Speaker 2: Here.

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Speaker 1: We talk all the time about the importance of risky play.

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Speaker 1: The research evidence is clear that it's good for kids.

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Speaker 1: It helps them to overcome anxiety, which it sounds like

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Speaker 1: Amy might be starting to deal with a nine year old.

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Speaker 1: The central thing that I want to emphasize is that

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Speaker 1: context is everything. So we say take risks, we say

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Speaker 1: encourage the kids to do things that are risky, but

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Speaker 1: context is everything. If you live on a main road

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Speaker 1: or there are known predators who approach children near where

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Speaker 1: you are, then finding alternative ways for your children to

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Speaker 1: take risks other than writing a blake down of the

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Speaker 1: park probably matter a lot. And the age of your

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Speaker 1: child matters a lot as well.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so that all makes sense. But if I am

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Speaker 3: a particularly anxious parent, how do I distinguish between what's

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Speaker 3: risky and what has Because I guess in my mind,

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Speaker 3: if I'm that person, everything feels hazardous as opposed to.

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Speaker 1: Risky, right and hazard slash danger and risk. They feel

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Speaker 1: like the same word, especially if you're a parent who's

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Speaker 1: a little bit anxious and really worried, and you're in

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Speaker 1: an area where you know that there are lots and

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Speaker 1: lots of dangers and hazards. How do they differ from risk?

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Speaker 1: So when we look very carefully, and this is my

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Speaker 1: geeky bit, I'm so sorry, but this is really important,

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Speaker 1: it's really relevant. I can see how excited you are

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Speaker 1: about I'm so sorry. The academic literature consistently distinguishes between

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Speaker 1: risk and hazard or danger, and it happens like this.

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Speaker 1: A risk is a situation where a child can recognize

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Speaker 1: and evaluate the level of risk. The child has the

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Speaker 1: developmental capability of saying, hmm, that's a big busy road,

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Speaker 1: or hm, there are a lot of people around here

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Speaker 1: that I don't like the look of. And I'm only nine.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm safe for being with my parents, So

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Speaker 1: that is risk. It's when the child can decide that

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Speaker 1: they have a sense of agency around this. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to decide whether I will try to climb over the

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Speaker 1: rocks and get to the bridge on the other side.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to decide whether I'm going to run the

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Speaker 1: gauntlet and do this thing at school or whether I'm not. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's the critical thing here.

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Speaker 3: Well, if you just take it a step back and

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Speaker 3: we look at the crossing the road thing, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: hazardous for a five year old to attempt to cross

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Speaker 3: a busy road on their own.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe even a six or seven year old depending

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Speaker 1: on the size of the road and all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: But we could consider it possibly a risky activity for

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Speaker 3: a nine year old who has a much better perception

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Speaker 3: of the dangers with cars and distance and all of

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Speaker 3: those things.

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Speaker 1: Great, So hazard's basically a source of harm where the

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Speaker 1: child is looking and it's not obvious they don't realize

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Speaker 1: how quite unquite dangerous is. Go to the beach is

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Speaker 1: a perfect example of this as well. Right, So if

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Speaker 1: you go to the beach and your child doesn't understand

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Speaker 1: how the ocean works, it is dangerous because there are

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Speaker 1: ribs and sweeps and currents. But if your child has

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Speaker 1: been going to nippers for years and they understand what

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Speaker 1: a rip looks like, and they understand how big the

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Speaker 1: shor he is, and they know where the waves are

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Speaker 1: and where the flags are and they know those things,

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Speaker 1: then they get to assess the degree to which they

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Speaker 1: feel comfortable taking a risk of going for a swim

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Speaker 1: in a particular place. It just comes down to knowledge

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Speaker 1: and the ability to identify what's going on. I guess

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Speaker 1: the other critical thing that I would highlight and I

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Speaker 1: already touched on this is just the importance of child agency.

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Speaker 1: So the child has to be able to make their

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Speaker 1: own decision about whether or not they'll participate. And we've

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Speaker 1: got so much research from so many countries now that

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Speaker 1: shows that risky play increases physical activity, decreases sedentary behavior,

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Speaker 1: improves learning, improves mental and physical health. It's good socially,

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Speaker 1: it's good for bringing anxiety down. Like, there's not a

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Speaker 1: single metric really that risky play doesn't bring benefits for

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Speaker 1: But it's risky play, not dangerous play.

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Speaker 3: So I am particularly anxious parent, and I am recognizing that,

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Speaker 3: I guess my anxiety is actually limiting my child's progress

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Speaker 3: and development. How do I get past that, because that's

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Speaker 3: the biggest challenge. It's actually not my child.

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Speaker 1: It's me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And you are

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Speaker 1: aware of the risks, and you're just not satisfied that

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Speaker 1: your child can either A navigate them or B you're

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Speaker 1: terrified that something will happen. Remember last Thursday we talked

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Speaker 1: about trust, trusting in a child's organismic development, their desire

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Speaker 1: to learn and grow. Actually, I've just realized you looking

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Speaker 1: at me blankly, because that's the one I did because

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Speaker 1: you weren't available. Did you listen to that one that

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Speaker 1: you weren't in?

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Speaker 3: I don't think that was the.

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Speaker 1: One with Renee Landry from McGill University talking about how

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Speaker 1: we need to trust in children's organismic development and the

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Speaker 1: more that we trust that they have a desire to

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Speaker 1: grow and learn and master and develop, the more likely

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Speaker 1: it is that they'll figure things out and thrive. You

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Speaker 1: don't remember that one.

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Speaker 3: I can't remember if I can listen to it, you're

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Speaker 3: going a hard time.

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Speaker 1: All right, So on public after the break, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to outline how to answer your question, and then I

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Speaker 1: know that you're championing a bit because this is your specialty.

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Speaker 1: You're actually really good at coming up with the practical

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Speaker 1: ideas for how to do this. So that's what we're

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Speaker 1: do in just a second. All right, Kylie, You've said,

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Speaker 1: how do we get over our own stuff. How do

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Speaker 1: we get over our own anxiety about letting the children

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Speaker 1: do things that are risky because we're nervous about what

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Speaker 1: might happen, or we just don't trust that they're going

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Speaker 1: to be able to figure it out on their own.

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Speaker 1: The first response that I'm going to give is just

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Speaker 1: not very helpful, but it's really important to say, you've

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Speaker 1: actually got to trust that the kids's going to navigate this,

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Speaker 1: Like the children will learn how to not go too

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Speaker 1: close to the edge, not climb the tree too high,

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Speaker 1: and not go swimming where the water's too deep, not

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Speaker 1: climb up or down that rock face if we give

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Speaker 1: them the opportunities from a young age to start to

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Speaker 1: navigate risk. Okay, So the second thing that I'm going

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Speaker 1: to say is this when we talk about need support

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Speaker 1: or autonomy support as Amy has called it. First of all,

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Speaker 1: you can buy my book The Pairing Revolution. It will

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Speaker 1: step you through everything here and it's one of those

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Speaker 1: boos where you want to read it, study it, listen

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Speaker 1: to it on audio like, go through it a couple

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Speaker 1: of times. But critically important is this idea of structure.

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Speaker 1: Structure helps people to become competent. So structure means understanding

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Speaker 1: the rules, the guidelines, the frameworks, the systems, the formula,

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Speaker 1: the boundaries. So if we can be really effective at

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Speaker 1: helping our children to understand the structure that's necessary to

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Speaker 1: be competent, that means that when they're in a situation

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Speaker 1: where they need to address and assess risk, they're going

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Speaker 1: to do it far better. I think the perfect example

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Speaker 1: is the one that I shared a minute ago with

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Speaker 1: the kids doing nippers at the local Surf Life Saving Club.

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Speaker 1: You don't just go and let your kids go for

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Speaker 1: a swim in the ocean. That's dangerous. That's hazardous. But

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Speaker 1: if you can spend time helping them to understand the structure,

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Speaker 1: the rules, the way that oceans work, remembering, of course

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Speaker 1: that oceans can be unpredictable. But the more you know

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Speaker 1: the pattern, the more you know how it works, the

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Speaker 1: safety you're going to be. So I'd be saying, spend

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Speaker 1: some time with your child helping them to understand why

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Speaker 1: these are the rules and how the rules work so

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Speaker 1: that they can navigate the road safely or the park safely.

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Speaker 1: For what it's worth, I don't think Amy should be

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Speaker 1: letting her nine year old go to the park on

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Speaker 1: her own based on the things that she's told us

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Speaker 1: about the area that they're living in. But there are

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Speaker 1: other things that you can do, and that's where I'm

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Speaker 1: going to turn it to you, because this is your specialty,

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Speaker 1: this is the thing that you talk about so well.

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Speaker 3: I think one of the first things that I would

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Speaker 3: actually encourage Amy to do is to actually sit down

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Speaker 3: with her daughter and be a bit vulnerable, explain how

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Speaker 3: she's feeling as a parent, and how in feeling that way,

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Speaker 3: there are things that she's done as a parent that

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Speaker 3: she recognizes as actually rubbed off on her daughter, have

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Speaker 3: stopped her from being able to be a little bit

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Speaker 3: spontaneous and take risks on her own because mum's been scared.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a really important part of the process.

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Speaker 1: It is, Yeah, although you've got to make sure that

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Speaker 1: you don't terrify your child as you explain what you're

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Speaker 1: nervous and anxious about. That can for some kids make

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Speaker 1: them increasingly anxious.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's necessarily about explaining what she's nervous about.

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Speaker 3: I think it's just acknowledging that as a mum, she

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Speaker 3: loves her child so much and wants desperately to keep

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Speaker 3: her safe. But because she's allowed her anxiety to rule

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Speaker 3: the decisions that she makes, it has stopped her from

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Speaker 3: having experiences that she could have otherwise had much more

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Speaker 3: helpful but practical ideas based on what we know about

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Speaker 3: Amy and where they're living. Like you said, it's not

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Speaker 3: going to be as easy as just letting her to

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Speaker 3: go down to the park and meet a friend, or

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Speaker 3: maybe even just walk to the corner store. But there

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Speaker 3: are things that she can do. So I thought of

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Speaker 3: what would it look like if Mum drives down to

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Speaker 3: the shops and instead of her getting out and grabbing

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Speaker 3: the milk, she actually sends her child in to go

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Speaker 3: and pick up some milk and then pay for it

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Speaker 3: at the checkout. How does that make her feel? Maybe

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Speaker 3: if that's too much. Maybe they're going and doing the

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Speaker 3: grocery shopping, and Mum has her own shopping list and

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Speaker 3: so does her daughter, and so they're kind of in

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Speaker 3: the same space together, but they're shopping separate.

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Speaker 1: Brilliant love it.

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Speaker 3: Maybe they're going to buy a birthday present for one

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Speaker 3: of her daughter's friends, and they go to a department

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Speaker 3: store like Big w or Targets or somewhere like that,

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Speaker 3: and the daughter gets to go off to the toy

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Speaker 3: section and pick her own present for her friend while

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Speaker 3: mum's in the clothing or home where's section. Daughter knows

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Speaker 3: where she is, she can find her way back, but

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Speaker 3: she's doing it on her own. Maybe she just goes

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Speaker 3: and pays for things at the counter one mum walks

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Speaker 3: out of the store and waits for it the outside

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Speaker 3: the door. Maybe she gets to go order her own

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Speaker 3: lunch while mum's sitting at the table waiting for her

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Speaker 3: daughter to come back.

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Speaker 1: And all those feel appropriate for a nine year old.

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Speaker 1: If you're not comfortable with that, what's the smallest part

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Speaker 1: that you're comfortable with? And allow her to do that?

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Speaker 1: And as your confidence grows and hers grows, it gets

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Speaker 1: better and better. And if there's friends who can join her,

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Speaker 1: that increases your sense of security and safety because two

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Speaker 1: kids are going to be safer than one.

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Speaker 3: And if all of that feels really way too big

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Speaker 3: right now, based on where Amy and her daughter are at,

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Speaker 3: maybe it's looking at things that she can do on

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Speaker 3: her own at home. We don't know how anxious her

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Speaker 3: child has become, so it might be that she actually

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Speaker 3: doesn't like being in a different room and so working

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Speaker 3: towards giving her opportunities to do tasks in a different

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Speaker 3: room to mum could be helpful. Maybe she takes more

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Speaker 3: responsibility in the kitchen. Maybe she gets to make her

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Speaker 3: own breakfast or make breakfast for the family. Maybe she

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Speaker 3: learns how to make a meal and once a week

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Speaker 3: she does that. There are so many different ways that

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Speaker 3: you can engage and give a nine year old responsibility

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Speaker 3: without putting her into a hazardous situation.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's wrap this up a couple of things

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Speaker 1: that are definitely worth highlighting. The likelihood of a child

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Speaker 1: in Australia being kidnapped is infinitesimally small. Yeah, but the

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Speaker 1: stats don't matter if that happens to you, So we're

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Speaker 1: not going to get caught up on that. Probably similar

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Speaker 1: odd swinting the lottery. It's probably even less likely. And

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Speaker 1: usually when it does happen, it's somebody who's known to

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Speaker 1: the family. It's usually a separation situation and that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. But if we want our kids to be safe,

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Speaker 1: or at least to be able to make decisions about

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Speaker 1: what level of risk they want to take, they need

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Speaker 1: to be put in situations where they can take risks

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Speaker 1: the data shows from an evolutionary perspective, children's just risky

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Speaker 1: play is going to serve as a what's the world

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Speaker 1: I'm looking for, Kylie. Like an anti anti you're less

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Speaker 1: likely to have phobia antiphobic mechanism where the kids because

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Speaker 1: they're playing, because they're taking those risks, they experience a

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Speaker 1: reduction and anxiety of the situations that used to be

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Speaker 1: dangerous when the child was younger. But now they're old

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Speaker 1: enough to assess it, they're not so concerned. And the

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Speaker 1: academic consensus is really clear. The distinction isn't between risky

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Speaker 1: and dangerous play, but between beneficial risks that children can

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Speaker 1: assess and manage, versus and hazards that are hidden and

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Speaker 1: therefore beyond their developmental capacity to recognize. So the goal

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Speaker 1: is keeping children as safe as necessary, rather than as

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Speaker 1: safe as possible. Amy we really hope that that's useful

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Speaker 1: info as you navigate the reformed helicopter behaviors that are

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Speaker 1: such a struggle. Thanks so much for being in touch.

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Speaker 1: discipline or any of those things, submit those tricky questions

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