Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reloaded podcast last week.
Speaker 2: Am I how would I just go on a television set,
Speaker 2: oh Man action from a headline grabbing point of view,
Speaker 2: the hack producer me says one hundred percent put him in.
Speaker 1: Thanks your welcome back guys to TV Reload. My name's
Speaker 1: Benjamin Norris and on this podcast, I go behind the
Speaker 1: scenes with the biggest players in television.
Speaker 2: Yeah, great questions.
Speaker 3: The show's about the game. There's a lot of great
Speaker 3: television out there in Australia.
Speaker 1: But I've also got to go behind the scenes with writers.
Speaker 1: The truth is, when I started writing it, it wasn't
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with the news and casting agents.
Speaker 3: They know from a casting point of view what they need, and.
Speaker 1: Editors because that's what we do as editors where storytellers.
Speaker 1: Not to forget some incredible executive producers who are making
Speaker 1: some of the best TV in Australia.
Speaker 3: I have been on the program since the beginning and
Speaker 3: it's kind of in my DNA.
Speaker 1: So thanks for joining me each week and I hope
Speaker 1: the podcast continues to give you real insight into the
Speaker 1: magic of television.
Speaker 4: Today.
Speaker 1: On the Podcascast, I have one of Australia's most prized
Speaker 1: TV content makers, Kaleida Corrigan, who has just launched my
Speaker 1: favorite new program Books That Made Us, an insightful look
Speaker 1: into Australian authors who have made an impact on the
Speaker 1: world with their best selling novels that reflect Australian culture.
Speaker 1: As an executive producer for ABC Arts, Kalida oversees a
Speaker 1: vibrant slate of series and feature documentaries. Her passion about
Speaker 1: making the arts accessible to a broader audiences has seen
Speaker 1: her work on Tiny Oz, Inside the Opera House and
Speaker 1: the Actor Award winning feature documentary Firestarter The Story of Bangerer. Previously,
Speaker 1: Khalida was a director and series producer in the independent
Speaker 1: sector and had made a broad range of programs for
Speaker 1: the UK, USA and Australian TV markets. Now working at
Speaker 1: ABC Factual and Cultural, Kalita consistently produces high quality, award
Speaker 1: winning factual and arts programs that feature Australian voices, places
Speaker 1: and stories which connect with a broader audience right across
Speaker 1: the ABC platform. Today will unpack the new ABC series
Speaker 1: with Claudia Carvin. Books That Made Us and I simply
Speaker 1: can't wait to talk about how this show got made
Speaker 1: and why it's so important for Australian audiences.
Speaker 2: The show did.
Speaker 1: Launch last Tuesday night, but you can catch up on
Speaker 1: episode one on ABC I View and episode two. We'll
Speaker 1: launch on Tuesday night at eight thirty on ABC. However,
Speaker 1: let's get started with today's episode. I'd like to welcome
Speaker 1: Kaleida Corrigan to this week's TV reload.
Speaker 3: Objectivity when you're telling stories is really important.
Speaker 4: As Australians, we love a great story.
Speaker 3: We are reaching a new audience with this show.
Speaker 4: There's nothing like getting completely lost in a book where
Speaker 4: you see the sun go down.
Speaker 3: You can't assume the audience is going to care.
Speaker 4: I want to delve into Australian books, the ones I've
Speaker 4: read and the ones I have.
Speaker 3: I think books that made us is the books that
Speaker 3: have created an impact.
Speaker 4: So come with me as I explore books that made us.
Speaker 3: Claudia Carbon does that. She's someone that a lot of
Speaker 3: our audience would wish was at their book club.
Speaker 2: How are you?
Speaker 3: You're good?
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much for coming onto
Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm not going to bog you down into
Speaker 1: the details of why, but I'd been on a break
Speaker 1: from this podcast and you know, I was struggling to
Speaker 1: get back the energy to come back and get into this,
Speaker 1: and it was your show that got me out of
Speaker 1: bed and started me thinking about getting back to work
Speaker 1: and doing what I love. I watched a preview of
Speaker 1: the last Tuesday's episode about two weeks ago, and I
Speaker 1: loved it so much.
Speaker 2: It actually sort of turned my life around in a
Speaker 2: weird way.
Speaker 1: I went out and bought a book by an Australian
Speaker 1: author and I set up this chat with you. Is
Speaker 1: it strange to know that a show like this can
Speaker 1: make such a big impact on one person.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's very strange to hear, but it's such a
Speaker 3: welcome thing to hear. I'm so happy to hear that.
Speaker 3: And I know that you're here to talk to me,
Speaker 3: but I want to ask you about what was it
Speaker 3: about the show that you loved? Is that okay to
Speaker 3: ask you that.
Speaker 1: I think it's so important for us as Australians to
Speaker 1: hear our own voices. And I was brought up by
Speaker 1: a teacher and she encouraged me to read as so
Speaker 1: so much of my early learning and my creativity came
Speaker 1: from reading whatever my mum would get me to read.
Speaker 1: You know, she started off by reading Paul Jennings and
Speaker 1: roll dhe books to me as a kid, and as
Speaker 1: my life has gone on, I've loved literature. I love
Speaker 1: being able to escape into that. But on top of this,
Speaker 1: I love Australia. I love our Australian culture and how
Speaker 1: could you be more Australian than to get Claudia Carvin
Speaker 1: to unpack these authors who we're so proud of. It
Speaker 1: inspires us to feel hurt, it inspires I think the
Speaker 1: show will inspire anyone because it reflects who we are
Speaker 1: here in Australia.
Speaker 2: That'd a good enough answer.
Speaker 3: It's beautiful And this isn't about the show, but I'm
Speaker 3: a mother of three boys. So my children are eight, eleven,
Speaker 3: and thirteen, and I am so proud of the fact.
Speaker 3: And I probably shouldn't even say it because it'll probably
Speaker 3: change because kids change all the time. But they're all
Speaker 3: bookworms and I think that books just offer you something.
Speaker 3: It's a phrase I heard when we were talking about
Speaker 3: this show was slow release nutrition. It's like books give
Speaker 3: you something and it's wholesome and it's very different to
Speaker 3: something that you can get from a screen. And I
Speaker 3: think it's just a really different relationship with story, and
Speaker 3: I think it really broadens us and it enriches our lives.
Speaker 3: So I'm very proud of having three kids who read.
Speaker 3: But I'm also just a passionate reader myself, and I
Speaker 3: really want to admit that. Just recently, quite strangely, I'm
Speaker 3: having a bit of a patch of no reading and
Speaker 3: I feel it's not good. But I think for years
Speaker 3: and years in my adult life, I just I read
Speaker 3: a lot of books and was sort of like the
Speaker 3: remember at book club who always read the book and
Speaker 3: was very keen to discuss it. But yeah, lately I'm
Speaker 3: actually a bit of a bad egg on that front.
Speaker 3: But I hope that with summer coming, I'll get back
Speaker 3: into it. I think choosing a book can be quite scary,
Speaker 3: you know, that kind of feeling when you start a
Speaker 3: book you just want it to be a good relationship
Speaker 3: from the first page, and I think sometimes there's that
Speaker 3: trepidation of like, if I knew it was going to
Speaker 3: be a book that I would dive into, I would
Speaker 3: just but it's just that sort of that choosing what's
Speaker 3: it going to be? And I think that's actually why
Speaker 3: book clubs are quite good, because they kind of take
Speaker 3: away that choice a little bit. It's sort of like,
Speaker 3: you know, you get you get the unexpected book, and
Speaker 3: there's always surprises, which I really like.
Speaker 1: I love that you say that we're coming into summer
Speaker 1: because how Australian is it to be with your family
Speaker 1: at the beach reading a book.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's my childhood.
Speaker 3: Yeah, awesome. And I think that's why we scheduled it
Speaker 3: to go out in at the end of November, because
Speaker 3: it is. I think people are thinking about what they're
Speaker 3: going to read over the summer, and I think there
Speaker 3: was heaps of comments on Twitter last night, people saying, oh,
Speaker 3: someone actually said you fucked up my reading list, which
Speaker 3: I thought was quite funny. They were like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: I've just totally influenced me. So yeah, I think people
Speaker 3: are I think I think we're influencing people's reading lists,
Speaker 3: and I just think that's awesome.
Speaker 4: There are thousands of novels to choose, from classics to
Speaker 4: best sellers, and so I'll be seeking out some of
Speaker 4: those books that have really touched a nerve and revealed
Speaker 4: something about who we are.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me in your words, what the idea
Speaker 1: of books that made us? What is it about I
Speaker 1: think books.
Speaker 3: That made us is the books that have created an impact.
Speaker 3: I think that the reason why, there's a really good
Speaker 3: reason for that. Like at the ABC, we celebrate the
Speaker 3: arts and we promote the arts, and we endorse the
Speaker 3: arts and we champion the arts. I think that we
Speaker 3: have this incredible team at Radio National that week in
Speaker 3: week out they are supporting books. But we lost our
Speaker 3: book show, our permanent bookshel a couple of years ago,
Speaker 3: and it's we've always been trying to find this opportunity
Speaker 3: to bring books back, but it has to fit into
Speaker 3: our commissioning strategy, which is to create programs. We're trying
Speaker 3: to take arts into a primetime space, and that's how
Speaker 3: this kind of was formulated. It was basically, we knew
Speaker 3: that we wanted to put it out at Tuesday eight thirty,
Speaker 3: which is a primetime spot. So it's like, how do
Speaker 3: you take books, this really specialist subject area that has
Speaker 3: tons of integrity that you just can't mess with, but
Speaker 3: present it to an audience that may or may not
Speaker 3: identify as a complete book nerd whilst including the people
Speaker 3: that do so. Finding a little formula that kind of
Speaker 3: worked for both audiences is really what a lot of
Speaker 3: my job is about, which is really taking arts to
Speaker 3: a broad audience to justify getting that spot on the
Speaker 3: in the primetime main channel. And so to do that,
Speaker 3: you've got to balance the kind of specialist integrity of
Speaker 3: the genre, which in this case is literature, and to
Speaker 3: include our authors, who in my mind, are all national treasures.
Speaker 3: And how do you find a way into that? Well
Speaker 3: that and that's how Claudia became attached Claudia Carbon.
Speaker 4: When the sound of the slap slammed through his body,
Speaker 4: it had been electric, fiery, exciting, It had nearly made
Speaker 4: him hard. It was the slap he wished he had delivered.
Speaker 4: He was glad that the boy had been punished. Glad
Speaker 4: he was crying, shocked and terrified.
Speaker 3: We want to find ways to make specialist subject areas
Speaker 3: and in this case, literature accessible. So Claudia Carbon does that.
Speaker 3: She's someone that a lot of our audience would wish
Speaker 3: was at their book club. So she makes this world
Speaker 3: that can be really deeply specialist accessible, and I think
Speaker 3: she is the reason why a broad audience has come
Speaker 3: to this subject. We also, we will never lose our
Speaker 3: book loving audience. They're really rusted on, committed deeply committed audience.
Speaker 3: There is such a big culture of book lovers in Australia,
Speaker 3: but I think this show was also positioned to attract
Speaker 3: a broader audience. You might have other reasons for coming
Speaker 3: to the show, which might be the geography that we cover,
Speaker 3: the fact that Claudia is on this journey, so there's
Speaker 3: other reasons to come to it. And then there's kind
Speaker 3: of we surprise them with the brilliant sequences where Claudia
Speaker 3: gets to meet the authors and explore the books.
Speaker 1: How unbelievable, like, you know, the talent that you managed
Speaker 1: to ascertain. You know, I was shocked at how much
Speaker 1: of these books I'd read. I'd read so many of them,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't believe. You know, when you see Christos
Speaker 1: Cholcos turn up and you see the list of people
Speaker 1: like even Leanne Moriarty who's coming up in a later episode,
Speaker 1: you know, just like the kram Crame of Australian authors
Speaker 1: are all there. And then not only do you get
Speaker 1: to have a splice of them talking to Claudia, but
Speaker 1: she's also being really authentic with the way in which
Speaker 1: she interacts with them. And immediately, you know, the first episode,
Speaker 1: you see her with Christos Chalkers. She says that she
Speaker 1: didn't finish the slap, and you think, AREM I nervous
Speaker 1: that she didn't finish the slap? Is that the wrong
Speaker 1: thing to say? But then that unearthed and unpacked the
Speaker 1: information that we as an audience want to know.
Speaker 4: I have a confession to make. I do have to
Speaker 4: declare myself that before we start talking too much to
Speaker 4: me about my response to the slab. There was a
Speaker 4: certain time in the book where I literally just threw
Speaker 4: it across the room and I didn't pick it up again,
Speaker 4: and I was just like, I couldn't find enough faith
Speaker 4: and hope and love in that book to keep me
Speaker 4: parenting every day.
Speaker 3: I remember when I first saw that in one of
Speaker 3: the rough cuts, I just was covered in goosebumps because
Speaker 3: obviously it's a very strong way to start the series.
Speaker 3: But to hear Christophe Chocos respond to that and to
Speaker 3: tell us and I think that's the thing I forgot
Speaker 3: to mention before. It's like the books that are selected
Speaker 3: are they're not Claudia's favorites, they're not the production's favorites.
Speaker 3: These books were very carefully selected because they have impacted
Speaker 3: Australia in some way, shape or form, and every book
Speaker 3: that we present has do we set it up with
Speaker 3: a historical context. And in the case of The Slap,
Speaker 3: the author was able to respond to Claudia by saying,
Speaker 3: how this was written at a time when the Tampa
Speaker 3: was happening, and it was a part of Australia that
Speaker 3: was really ugly, and yet we were in you know,
Speaker 3: we're such an affluent society and that this was going on.
Speaker 3: He said, that is an ugly part of Australia and
Speaker 3: I'm going to, you know, use that to inspire this book.
Speaker 3: And I just thought, yeah, I thought that was a
Speaker 3: great opportunity to bring in the motivation for writing that book,
Speaker 3: and just hearing it again and reflecting on our history,
Speaker 3: I think it really I found it quite powerful.
Speaker 1: Well, how important do you think it is in hearing
Speaker 1: our own voices in mainstream media, in books, in music?
Speaker 1: I guess in the arts.
Speaker 3: I think it's just so important that you are reflected,
Speaker 3: because you can't be what you can't see. And I
Speaker 3: think Australia is growing in confidence as a nation and
Speaker 3: as an identity. I think it's a very broad identity.
Speaker 1: Australia we have a hunger for Australian stories.
Speaker 3: We don't quite know who we are yet, and we
Speaker 3: want to. I worked in the UK in the TV
Speaker 3: industry for ten years and I noticed over there and
Speaker 3: I guess the same for America. There seems to be
Speaker 3: so much confidence in people's identity and I feel like
Speaker 3: that's something that Australia is growing and growing. I think
Speaker 3: seeing yourself reflected in our myriad ways, there's so many
Speaker 3: you know, Ben Law has that brilliant quote about who's Australia.
Speaker 3: You know, who's Australia are we actually talking about? We're
Speaker 3: such a diverse mix, but I think seeing ourselves reflected
Speaker 3: is just crucial. It is absolutely crucial because it's like
Speaker 3: you feel seen and you feel heard. In this there
Speaker 3: was such an you know, it's obviously a huge focus
Speaker 3: of all ABC commissioning is to reflect contemporary Australia, like
Speaker 3: genuinely reflect contemporary Australia, and I think so diversity is
Speaker 3: a huge part of that, and so whenever we're kind
Speaker 3: of like commissioning programs, that's something that we think about,
Speaker 3: and so do all the amazing program makers that we
Speaker 3: engage with do. I mean, it's just I think it's
Speaker 3: just the way that we think in this day and age.
Speaker 1: You know, we really need to get back and talk
Speaker 1: about Claudia Carvan just for a little bit, because I'm
Speaker 1: obsessed with her, and I'm assuming that you're obsessed with
Speaker 1: her as well.
Speaker 2: As is the rest of Australia.
Speaker 1: Why do you think it is with Claudia that she
Speaker 1: resonates so warmly with Australian audiences.
Speaker 3: Because it's all about her. She's really for someone who's
Speaker 3: as successful as she is, she's incredibly down to earth.
Speaker 3: She's incredibly real. She's has a really sharp intelligence, but
Speaker 3: she's also witty, and she just did her homework. I mean,
Speaker 3: she read a lot of books. She took the role
Speaker 3: very seriously. She found some of the interviews quite intimidating.
Speaker 3: You know, you're walking into someone's life who has dedicated
Speaker 3: their life to writing something and they've put in so
Speaker 3: much effort. You know, she wanted to do that role.
Speaker 3: You know, that was a privileged role and she wanted
Speaker 3: to do it justice. So but she's just real and
Speaker 3: I think it's kind of fun that she did this
Speaker 3: show because she's always playing roles, you know, in dramas,
Speaker 3: but this was an opportunity to just be herself, and
Speaker 3: I think she just went with it, and I think
Speaker 3: that's just super brave. Actually, she just really went with it.
Speaker 3: And you know, the way we make documentaries is really
Speaker 3: really different to the way dramas are made. So I
Speaker 3: think it was it was an eye opening experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of out of her comfort zone, you know, Like,
Speaker 1: I think that was interesting about it. But it was
Speaker 1: so palpable because she was really honest. Like I love
Speaker 1: that bit where she walked into one of the author's
Speaker 1: house and she said, lower your expectations because he was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I can't believe that, Clauda Cup, you know,
Speaker 1: this is exactly amazing to be interviewed by you. I
Speaker 1: wasn't prepared for this. And then she put him at ease,
Speaker 1: and she put the audience at ease as well, Like
Speaker 1: I think that sort of made it feel comfortable.
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't know why I was going to have
Speaker 4: an interviewer of your distinction.
Speaker 2: I'm a humble reader.
Speaker 3: The expectations really low.
Speaker 1: How did she get attached to the show, because obviously
Speaker 1: you wanted her to do it, but she's so busy
Speaker 1: with her acting and producing these days? How did you
Speaker 1: manage to get this gorgeous amount of time with her?
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was attached before I was on board as
Speaker 3: the executive producer, but I know that she's she obviously
Speaker 3: had time in her schedule, which is really lucky because
Speaker 3: I know she's absolutely hit dick now on Bump two
Speaker 3: and three, so she had time. There's no way she
Speaker 3: would have done it if she wasn't completely passionately up
Speaker 3: for the ride. So I think it was actually just
Speaker 3: really clever casting on behalf of Blackfellow Films, who produced this.
Speaker 3: They you know, there was there's always a short list
Speaker 3: when you're coming up with shows like this, and they
Speaker 3: approached Claudia and it just happened to be the right
Speaker 3: time and the right project and she signed up. So
Speaker 3: I think it was a lot of luck but also
Speaker 3: really good, good instincts from Blackfellow.
Speaker 1: Can we get a series two already? Because I know
Speaker 1: that I'm already two episodes in, so I've seen Tuesday's
Speaker 1: episode that's coming up, but I.
Speaker 2: Don't want it to end.
Speaker 1: And I know that there's probably so many other authors
Speaker 1: out there that it'd be watching the show thinking oh,
Speaker 1: why didn't I get asked to come and talk to
Speaker 1: Claudia Carvin about this. You know, do you think we
Speaker 1: will look at seeing a second series or do you
Speaker 1: think it's just a standalone.
Speaker 3: Oh god, I'd love to and I think we should
Speaker 3: rally Blackfellow Films to picture some new series basically, and
Speaker 3: if anyone's got any ideas on what books they'd love
Speaker 3: to see covered, because there is a thesis to the
Speaker 3: structure of the show, and it is people, place and power.
Speaker 3: So you've really got to be thinking about how these
Speaker 3: books a have impacted Australia, how we can build that
Speaker 3: context visually because it is it is television, it's not
Speaker 3: a podcast, so it's really you've got to be able
Speaker 3: to set that book up somehow visually, and that's super challenging.
Speaker 3: And I think Jacob Hickey, the series producer, and Sally
Speaker 3: Aikin the director, and the cinematographer Aaron Smith did a
Speaker 3: sterling job on that front. Like creatively, they've really created something.
Speaker 3: I'd tell you what, it's really hard to do, and
Speaker 3: they've made it look really easy with the finished product.
Speaker 3: So I think the books, if we did it again,
Speaker 3: they would all have to kind of like you know,
Speaker 3: feed the thesis. That'd have to be a coherent narrative,
Speaker 3: and they would have to be sort of you know,
Speaker 3: be able to be translated onto screen. But I mean, god,
Speaker 3: I would love to do another series.
Speaker 1: I could tell which authors were coming up just by
Speaker 1: the cinematography, so the change would happen, and you know,
Speaker 1: Clauda would walk away from one of the authors. But
Speaker 1: how amazing, Yes, that the that it all came together
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 3: You know I should mention the beautiful editor because again
Speaker 3: like that, editing is crucial to get right and that
Speaker 3: takes a lot of a lot of work. So the
Speaker 3: main editor was Jane Usher, and she just did an
Speaker 3: amazing job as well. So there are so it is
Speaker 3: such a team sport making shows like this, and I
Speaker 3: think the team is just, you know, just did a
Speaker 3: sterling job.
Speaker 1: How much did you workshop those chats with each author?
Speaker 1: Like how much did you know what Claudia was going
Speaker 1: to say?
Speaker 3: So we get scripts that come through before the production
Speaker 3: starts that we approve, but all of that has been
Speaker 3: written by Jacob Hickey, the series producer, so he really
Speaker 3: has mapped out the series and I think that we
Speaker 3: broadly know what might be the highlight points for each sequence,
Speaker 3: each encounter with each all. But that's just the starting
Speaker 3: point because obviously then real life comes into it, and
Speaker 3: Claudia is in there as the perth like she's not
Speaker 3: obviously not scripted. That's her knowing what the possibilities are,
Speaker 3: but really driving that conversation. And I'm fairly sure I
Speaker 3: don't think I'm getting this wrong. I'm fairly sure that
Speaker 3: in Brisbane when she meets David Maloof, I think that
Speaker 3: wasn't necessarily planned because she actually had this favorite section
Speaker 3: that she reads out, which is just so funny. It
Speaker 3: was in the end T's of EP one. You might
Speaker 3: have seen a snippet of it where he shits Brisbane
Speaker 3: out of his ass.
Speaker 4: At the end of every seven years, you completely knew,
Speaker 4: did you know that new fingernail's, new hair, new cells.
Speaker 4: There'll be nothing left of me in bloody Australia. I'll
Speaker 4: be transmuted. I'll say to myself every morning as I
Speaker 4: squat on the dunny, there goes another bit of Australia.
Speaker 4: That was Wilson's promontory that was too long, wash down
Speaker 4: the pluck hole. At the end of seven years, I'll
Speaker 4: have squoilzed the whole fucking continent out through my asshole.
Speaker 3: I don't know that that was planned. And again I
Speaker 3: have to say, I'm sitting at the broadcasters, so there's
Speaker 3: this brilliant team on the ground navigating those shoots so
Speaker 3: that Sally It can directing that on the day. But
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, I think it's broadly written up so
Speaker 3: that the show has a thesis, but then you know,
Speaker 3: at the end of the day it is a documentary
Speaker 3: and those conversations, you know, flow on the day and
Speaker 3: Claudia is driving those.
Speaker 1: What an excellent choice though, to have her reading the
Speaker 1: words back to the authors. And there's a really good
Speaker 1: bit with Tim Winton where he says, I forgot I
Speaker 1: forgot I wrote that. You know, he wrote that book
Speaker 1: thirty years ago. So what an experience for us as
Speaker 1: an audience to see those words being read back to
Speaker 1: the authors and then hearing what they think of it now.
Speaker 1: It's out of box experience.
Speaker 3: I agree. I really like that bit because I think
Speaker 3: you kind of do a bit of why this why now?
Speaker 3: Like why are we talking about this? And I think
Speaker 3: for that author to hear someone's relationship with this work
Speaker 3: that they've kind of you know, they've forgotten pages that
Speaker 3: they've written. In fact, he's not the only author that
Speaker 3: says that. That comes up quite a bit. Helen garnasays that,
Speaker 3: and Charlotte Wood. I think it's kind of interesting how
Speaker 3: they forget what they've written. But I guess it's not
Speaker 3: surprising given how many words they're responsible for. But yeah,
Speaker 3: I could see Tim Winton seem genuinely moved. He's just like,
Speaker 3: I loved you reading that. So I quite like that
Speaker 3: because it's sort of Yeah. If I think when you
Speaker 3: put out work and you see it being adored and
Speaker 3: you see someone having their own genuine relationship with it,
Speaker 3: I think it must be quite satisfying.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, I've studied cloud Street and Literature in Year twelve
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven, so over twenty years ago, and
Speaker 1: it was just that book, particularly not that I ever reread,
Speaker 1: it stayed in my mind and I love its connection
Speaker 1: to Australian culture. And then just to hear the interactions
Speaker 1: twenty years later for me was really powerful but also
Speaker 1: really authentic, you know, like I think he was saying
Speaker 1: some really amazing things about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think what worried me sitting at the broadcast.
Speaker 3: So I thought, I'm always thinking with my audience hat on,
Speaker 3: So I'm thinking, we don't want this show to be
Speaker 3: just repeating things that you know, some of our really
Speaker 3: dedicated audiences already already know. And I was talking to
Speaker 3: the book consultant about that, Julianne Shultz and Griffith Uni,
Speaker 3: and I was like, you know, just wanted to make
Speaker 3: sure I always like to know that the different circles
Speaker 3: that could that are kind of looking at this series,
Speaker 3: the kind of you know, enjoying it, endorsing it. Like
Speaker 3: I just I'm always across that kind like its reception
Speaker 3: when you're putting it out there into the world. And
Speaker 3: she said that, she said that for the people that
Speaker 3: do know intimately the stories that we covered one of
Speaker 3: the triggers, well, one of the reactions that came from
Speaker 3: that was just that they then wanted to read the
Speaker 3: book again because as we know, like you might have
Speaker 3: read a book a long time ago, but if you
Speaker 3: were to reread it again, it could possibly have you know,
Speaker 3: you'd have a different relationship with it, and you could
Speaker 3: have a different response to it. I've gone completely in
Speaker 3: the past. Yeah, and you know, you just different because
Speaker 3: we grow when we're different people. So I think it
Speaker 3: has had that impact on some of the people that
Speaker 3: were super familiar with the text.
Speaker 1: I find that reading books is like time travel, and interestingly,
Speaker 1: for me, I can go back and read books that
Speaker 1: I read as a teenager. I can smell, you know,
Speaker 1: the nineties, you know, when I was growing up as
Speaker 1: a teenager. Or it'll unearth things for me that I've
Speaker 1: completely forgotten about. And that's just just one of the
Speaker 1: very small things that's important about reading to me.
Speaker 2: I guess, Yeah, it's.
Speaker 3: Just so evocati. Even there's a timelessness when you know,
Speaker 3: when it's something's written really well, there's a timelessness, but
Speaker 3: it can be as in like it still really resonates
Speaker 3: even all these years later. But I mean it sounds
Speaker 3: real like it's very evocative as well.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent, you know. And I couldn't believe the
Speaker 1: lineup of authors. How did you get these authors? I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't believe that you'd been sitting there calling them yourself.
Speaker 1: But was it harder? Do you know whether or not
Speaker 1: they were just jumping on board.
Speaker 3: I think it was challenging, and Jacob Hickey did a
Speaker 3: sterling job of that the series producer, Jacob so he
Speaker 3: worked extremely hard to get the authors on board. And
Speaker 3: I think it's just fair to say that authors aren't
Speaker 3: you put on this earth to be on a screen
Speaker 3: and do interviews on television. They write books, and they
Speaker 3: write often in very solitary environments. So the fact that
Speaker 3: they all came on board and were so generous with
Speaker 3: what we wanted to do was just amazing. Because like
Speaker 3: last night when it went to air, I had my
Speaker 3: three sons watching it, but my thirteen year old stayed
Speaker 3: through the whole thing. So they are actually, in that
Speaker 3: specific example, speaking to the next generation. So the fact
Speaker 3: that they actually came on board to be generous with
Speaker 3: their time communicate with our audience, we are so so
Speaker 3: grateful for that, and I think it's an amazing contribution
Speaker 3: to our cultural heritage because I really think we are
Speaker 3: reaching a new audience with this show. So yeah, I
Speaker 3: don't think it was easy to cast all of them,
Speaker 3: but I think we, you know, were thrilled with everybody
Speaker 3: that came on board.
Speaker 1: Well, what do you think was the most surprising fact
Speaker 1: for you that you picked up along the way. You know,
Speaker 1: obviously you were watching the Russias and now you know
Speaker 1: what goes to what's the final product that's gone to air.
Speaker 1: What's something of a surprising fact that one of the
Speaker 1: authors said.
Speaker 3: That's a lovely question. But I think one of the
Speaker 3: one of the ones that stands out is I have
Speaker 3: read The Secret River like many people, but I didn't.
Speaker 3: I shamefully didn't know that Benevolence by Julie Janssen existed.
Speaker 3: To see the way that Secret River was paired up
Speaker 3: with benevolence to say that Secret River came out and
Speaker 3: Kate did such an amazing job, but Julie Jensen, an
Speaker 3: indigenous author, created a response to that work, and I
Speaker 3: just loved that. What ansa So Claudia meets Leam Mariarty
Speaker 3: at the beginning of A three and I love the
Speaker 3: way that that interview ends, and I just think, you
Speaker 3: just I can't wait till you see it. We also
Speaker 3: have Charlotte Wood the way I mean that she just
Speaker 3: inspires me so much. And then there's also Kathy Lett.
Speaker 3: We talk about puberty Blues, and Claudia meets Pam Burridge
Speaker 3: and they have a serve together and they have a
Speaker 3: conversation about that book, which again just so great. So yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm really excited about at three.
Speaker 1: How good was Puberty Blues the TV series? I watched
Speaker 1: all two seasons together. I just loved it, And there
Speaker 1: was the music was really quite haunting in that series,
Speaker 1: so like every time I hear it playing in the background,
Speaker 1: I'm immediately transported back to the seven And it just
Speaker 1: was so carefully told and so normally we don't get
Speaker 1: a movie or a TV show that does the book justice.
Speaker 1: Where that long form of being able to delve into
Speaker 1: that Puberty Blues world so amazing.
Speaker 2: I loved it. I thought it was great.
Speaker 3: I'm obsessed with that series too, and I think Gloria
Speaker 3: was amazing and her character had the most incredible trajectory
Speaker 3: and arc. I just I absolutely loved it as well.
Speaker 1: The Kram Doller crame of Australian actors was in that series,
Speaker 1: which is quite amazing. There's a real ease and a
Speaker 1: real flow with the show. From my perspective as a viewer,
Speaker 1: What did you as an executive producer?
Speaker 2: What did you bring to the production.
Speaker 3: Well, I think my role is just thinking always about
Speaker 3: our audience and because obviously ABC IVY is a huge
Speaker 3: part of what we commission for now, but we also
Speaker 3: need to be really careful of the premiere on the
Speaker 3: main channel, and so it has a particular which is
Speaker 3: Tuesday eight thirty, and we kind of know how that
Speaker 3: slot works, so we can bring a lot of I
Speaker 3: guess learnings from the years that we've been watching that
Speaker 3: slot and watching how shows do and looking at the
Speaker 3: way the pre title teas works and knowing that you've
Speaker 3: only got so long to hook an audience, and just
Speaker 3: I think a lot of what the EP does on
Speaker 3: different productions is you really look at the way you're
Speaker 3: positioning the show and how you are speaking to those
Speaker 3: audiences in those first In that first minute, you can't
Speaker 3: assume the audience is going to care about your show,
Speaker 3: So you've got to find a way that connects with
Speaker 3: the people that instantly will care, but also connects with
Speaker 3: the people who might be on the fence. So how
Speaker 3: are you going to position this, Like, how are you
Speaker 3: going to have a very sharp premise that hooks those
Speaker 3: people in? And I think that's really a big part
Speaker 3: of I guess what the EP does. And then all
Speaker 3: the way through through you're another objective person on the team,
Speaker 3: so you're kind of like looking at the scripts and
Speaker 3: making sure that it flows and that objectivity is enormously
Speaker 3: valuable because obviously I've approved the script before production starts,
Speaker 3: but then I've been at arm's length, and objectivity when
Speaker 3: you're telling stories is really important. So just working with
Speaker 3: the brilliant team. I mean, you're so blessed to have
Speaker 3: a team as experienced as this one. So it's really
Speaker 3: just collaborating to make sure that our audience is going
Speaker 3: to receive this. They know what they want to make,
Speaker 3: but I need to make sure it's going to land
Speaker 3: with the audience that we know will come to it.
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, it takes it takes time,
Speaker 3: Like it takes many weeks in the edit to be
Speaker 3: able to do that, and rough cuts and fine cuts
Speaker 3: and it's you know, it's just it's a real process.
Speaker 3: So it's that's sort of my you know, a big
Speaker 3: part of my role. I also have another like I
Speaker 3: have a whole team at the ABC, so we have
Speaker 3: like a promo's team who created the most beautiful promo.
Speaker 3: We have radio nationals, So relationships I have with that
Speaker 3: amazing team who are just doing the heavy lifting covering
Speaker 3: books week in week out. So I make sure that
Speaker 3: They're all part of what we're doing and they're in
Speaker 3: step and can support this amazing show. I work closely
Speaker 3: with ABC Impact in Factional Culture, So we did a
Speaker 3: writing competition for youth and then the Impact teams that
Speaker 3: up a partnership with the Wheelers Center, So some a
Speaker 3: handful of winning entries are going to get mentored to
Speaker 3: produce their writing further, and then it will get published
Speaker 3: in a journal, Voice Works Journal. So it's really connecting
Speaker 3: as well internally with the massive beast that is the ABC.
Speaker 3: There are so many people that work on your shows,
Speaker 3: and so it's about keeping like publicity. Amazing publicity support
Speaker 3: we had, so it's really, yeah, part of it. A
Speaker 3: lot of it is advocating internally, and then a lot
Speaker 3: of it is also just making sure the show's going
Speaker 3: to work for our audience.
Speaker 1: Just to share a little bit of my own story
Speaker 1: with the first viewing of the show, I basically was
Speaker 1: in bed and I didn't really want to get up,
Speaker 1: and I felt like a piece of grass that was
Speaker 1: basically dead that someone sort are salvaged, and I felt
Speaker 1: like the show every minute of the first fifteen minutes
Speaker 1: in I kind of came back alive. It just breathed
Speaker 1: some life into me. So it's so interesting that you
Speaker 1: talk about it being vital to capture an audience and
Speaker 1: inspire them and hook them, you know, and that's and
Speaker 1: not only did you do that for me, you did
Speaker 1: it in a life changing kind of way.
Speaker 2: So it was amazing, amazing.
Speaker 3: So happy to hear that that's the best. That is
Speaker 3: just I think we've just our audience is intelligent and
Speaker 3: they want to be entertained, but they also want to
Speaker 3: be inspired and they want to think, and I think
Speaker 3: that's really important. So it's like it's an intelligent series
Speaker 3: that isn't too confronting or too challenging, but it feels
Speaker 3: like there's a great sense of purpose, and you know,
Speaker 3: it just feels like a really nutritious thing to watch.
Speaker 3: I think you learn, you think, and you're inspired. And
Speaker 3: I think so often you might watch the media or
Speaker 3: you might open a newspaper, and there's so much If
Speaker 3: you're not having a good day, there's a lot that
Speaker 3: could actually make you have a worse day. And I
Speaker 3: think a lot of the authors that are on this show,
Speaker 3: they are genuinely national treasures what they have contributed, the
Speaker 3: truth that they speak in through their fiction, the words
Speaker 3: that they choose, the sentences that they craft. These actually
Speaker 3: are people that we should celebrate a little bit more.
Speaker 3: And we don't sort of go on about that in
Speaker 3: the show, but I just think making space for these
Speaker 3: people who have given Australian culture so much, I just
Speaker 3: think that is what we should be doing. These people
Speaker 3: really deserve to be these authors really deserve to be celebrated,
Speaker 3: and I'm so happy that you've found a way to
Speaker 3: do that in a primetime space, because I think there
Speaker 3: is a challenge with taking specialist content into a primetime space.
Speaker 3: You know, the risk is that you could dilute the
Speaker 3: caliber of the art form that you're wanting to represent,
Speaker 3: and that's the challenge is how to find a way
Speaker 3: in without diluting the integrity of that art form. So
Speaker 3: I'm really glad to hear that it resonated with you
Speaker 3: and that it sort of, you know, got you inspired.
Speaker 1: Putting those authors together, I was thinking could be a
Speaker 1: daunting concept because you know, one author could be more
Speaker 1: exciting the other anything, but they all equally were just
Speaker 1: as powerful, like they were all equally protected with an
Speaker 1: integrity that made them all just as amazing. And it
Speaker 1: made it cohesive, you know, and it just flowed, which
Speaker 1: I think would be really hard because there's a few
Speaker 1: authors that might be a little bit more recognizable or
Speaker 1: might be better spoken, but every single person that's on
Speaker 1: that show is getting a mo and it kind of lifts,
Speaker 1: it kind of fills you up. We could talk about
Speaker 1: this all day, and some points you probably feel like
Speaker 1: we almost have, but I just wanted to say, you're
Speaker 1: attached to some amazing, amazing projects with the ABC. Can
Speaker 1: we talk a little bit about what you're working on?
Speaker 1: Coming up for twenty twenty two, We've.
Speaker 3: Got tiny Oz, a three by one hour documentary series
Speaker 3: that celebrates history and craft in equal measure. And it's
Speaker 3: hosted by Jimmy Rees and also tiny artist Joanne Busana
Speaker 3: Selk And so basically, each episode looks at a different
Speaker 3: goes to a different location and looks at a different
Speaker 3: historical moment, and a team, like a team of crafts
Speaker 3: people recreate that moment in tiny Craft. So we've got
Speaker 3: one episode set up in Broom and we talk about
Speaker 3: the purling industry, and we've got one episode set in
Speaker 3: Adelaide looking at hot air ballooning like this incredible little
Speaker 3: story about a hot air ballooning incident that happened, and
Speaker 3: also amazing ones and in Sydney, which is called How
Speaker 3: to Move a Zoo, which is set around the story
Speaker 3: of when they had to move the zoo from center
Speaker 3: of Sydney to Taronga before the bridge was built, So
Speaker 3: it was basically walking this whole menagerie of animals through
Speaker 3: the city center and then getting them on a barge.
Speaker 2: So if you like, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: So it's a really I think in a post COVID environment,
Speaker 3: tiny os is just this, It's just tonally where we
Speaker 3: all want to be. We want to be, we want
Speaker 3: to think like. It has all this beautiful history in
Speaker 3: rich detail. We've got the rich like the artisan ship
Speaker 3: in with all these crafts, people who literally have just
Speaker 3: dedicated their lives to these tiny like making tiny items.
Speaker 3: It's so inspiring. And we've got the kind of the
Speaker 3: beautiful fun hosts Jimmy Reese and also Joanne And we're
Speaker 3: really hoping that this series inspires our audience to also
Speaker 3: parts to pay because I think craft is a really
Speaker 3: great way to do it. And I think that after COVID,
Speaker 3: it's just we just we want to kind of I
Speaker 3: think we just want to celebrate the good that's happening
Speaker 3: in the world, and it's just whimsical and so much fun.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that? I mean, it's a good
Speaker 1: question to ask you about why you love working for
Speaker 1: the ABC. But you know, as a broadcaster, they seem
Speaker 1: to be pumping out some of the best scripted content
Speaker 1: as well, you know, total control the newsreader fires. I mean, honestly,
Speaker 1: I could the list could go on. But maybe it's
Speaker 1: an indicative of me and my place in my life
Speaker 1: or I'm not sure, but I'm just loving the ABC
Speaker 1: right now. I'm loving the content that's coming out of it.
Speaker 1: So what is it for you as to why you
Speaker 1: love working with the network so much?
Speaker 3: I just think it's an immense privilege to work in
Speaker 3: a national broadcaster because the content that we do, we're
Speaker 3: bound by a charter. I mean, it's a really strict charter,
Speaker 3: and we can our content has to have purpose and
Speaker 3: it has to have value for the public because we
Speaker 3: are publicly funded. So from a filmmaker's point of view,
Speaker 3: you're making programs or you're commissioning programs that have that
Speaker 3: are just full of integrity. We can't really do anything
Speaker 3: unless it does. And I think as a program maker
Speaker 3: you also have to we all have to kind of
Speaker 3: earn a living, but to be able to earn a
Speaker 3: living working on shows that you genuinely would stand behind
Speaker 3: is just an absolute joy and I think it's a
Speaker 3: really creative time. And I think that particularly being an
Speaker 3: executive producer whose main focus is taking arts to a
Speaker 3: broad audience. I just think that's a really exciting position
Speaker 3: to be in because I was in the independent production
Speaker 3: sector for twenty years. So I've worked in the UK
Speaker 3: for ten years and then I've worked back in Australia,
Speaker 3: you know, working my way up from being a runner, researcher,
Speaker 3: assistant producer, director, series producer. So then to come over
Speaker 3: into the broadcaster and really look at like put all
Speaker 3: that those decades of work experience and feed it back
Speaker 3: into this different role, because being an EP is quite
Speaker 3: a different role. It's just really satisfying. So I feel
Speaker 3: really fortunate to do that. But I think the ABC
Speaker 3: is just a very inspiring place to work and it's
Speaker 3: a really you know, it's just a really important part
Speaker 3: of Australian cultural life and it's just a joy to
Speaker 3: be a part of that.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's amazing for you personally to have
Speaker 1: gone on that journey and continued to grow and then
Speaker 1: have the ability. Now every step of that is a journey,
Speaker 1: and here you are being able to pump out some
Speaker 1: amazing content. You know, must feel quite fulfilling. My one question, though,
Speaker 1: I always ask my guests before they go, is what's
Speaker 1: an amazing story from behind the scenes that we as
Speaker 1: an audience might appreciate.
Speaker 3: We were extraordinarily lucky to get this show in the
Speaker 3: can because it was filmed in between in between lockdowns.
Speaker 3: Now it's all such a blur, but yet they like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, the scheduling and the rescheduling and then
Speaker 3: the rescheduling of these shoots that were done by Blackfellow
Speaker 3: Films was absolutely just incredible. I think every production in
Speaker 3: Australia was affected like that. But just the fact that
Speaker 3: we got Claudia into Western Australia is amazing. The fact
Speaker 3: that we got her into Tasmania is amazing, and even Queensland.
Speaker 3: So we were very, very lucky to and you know,
Speaker 3: the team were so skilled at doing that. But it
Speaker 3: was just so tricky to be filming in a pandemic.
Speaker 1: But you know, because it's Claudia Carvin and she's basically
Speaker 1: got the keys to the country.
Speaker 3: Exactly. I'm not sure that happened, but who knows.
Speaker 1: Look, I just want to say thank you so much
Speaker 1: for the content that you've been making.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being able to join.
Speaker 1: Us and talk about I think it's my favorite show
Speaker 1: for twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2: So what an honor.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I feel so hon and I'm so
Speaker 3: thrilled to talk to you, Benjamin and to hear your
Speaker 3: beautiful feedback. And I'll pass it on to the team
Speaker 3: and thank you so much for this opportunity and keep
Speaker 3: watching