Speaker 1: This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We
Speaker 1: urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on
Speaker 1: thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at
Speaker 1: lifeline dot org dot au. A twenty four year old
Speaker 1: devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a
Speaker 1: bags packed car running her daughters strapped into the backseat.
Speaker 2: Mom told me that she needed to go back inside
Speaker 2: to grab something.
Speaker 1: Panic.
Speaker 3: I Amy is dead, Sir aim his dead?
Speaker 1: Eight confusion World.
Speaker 4: About five minutes they sit not to suicide.
Speaker 5: One hundred percent.
Speaker 6: This is emergency.
Speaker 1: What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy?
Speaker 1: The Truth about Amy?
Speaker 7: Episode ten.
Speaker 1: I'm Liam Bartlett.
Speaker 7: And I'm Alison Sandy.
Speaker 1: I'm ready.
Speaker 5: You're really blush.
Speaker 8: Cameras said, excellent, everyone has eyes and ears. Safety's off, okay,
Speaker 8: and test fire. I'm going to try and pull the
Speaker 8: trigger with my finger.
Speaker 5: I think it's very interesting right there. That's very very interesting.
Speaker 4: Day.
Speaker 5: Look at the force he's trying to put into pulling
Speaker 5: that trigger, and he hasn't been able to pull the trigger.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's do it again out of the shooting range.
Speaker 1: At the Campbelltown, Liverpool District Pistol Club in Western Sydney.
Speaker 1: International Crime Reconstruction scene expert Scott Rhoda is testing the
Speaker 1: shotgun which was used to kill Amy, not the actual gun,
Speaker 1: which was a four to ten boyto twelve gauge double
Speaker 1: barrel shotgun owned by her partner David Simmons, but an
Speaker 1: exact match to be used as part of the crime
Speaker 1: scene reconstruction. He's joined by Daniel Martin of Arms and FX,
Speaker 1: who specializes in firearms, theatrical armory, pyrotechnics and props for
Speaker 1: film and TV.
Speaker 8: Twenty one round in the chamber is going to be clear,
Speaker 8: and I'll confirm that weapons clear, weapons safe on this one.
Speaker 9: When you pull the trigger, maybe just try to support
Speaker 9: the gun just a little bit so some of you
Speaker 9: can see if there's any kick of the gun coming
Speaker 9: up off of that front pad. So maybe just try
Speaker 9: to stabilize it a little bit to see if it
Speaker 9: comes up to end at all sail. Yeah, just stabilize
Speaker 9: it a little bit so that we can really feel.
Speaker 5: How much pressure you're putting on that trigger to make
Speaker 5: it pull.
Speaker 9: Obviously, we can do manufacture, you know, settings to see
Speaker 9: what the whole trigger hounds are.
Speaker 5: You know, on it.
Speaker 9: But I think if you stabilize it just a little bit,
Speaker 9: that might show us that the.
Speaker 8: Barrel oka reacting safety is off. Weapons loaded and testing.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 9: Now that had a substantial recoil and you just stabilize
Speaker 9: it just a little bit.
Speaker 1: That just a little bit. It's also important for ROTA
Speaker 1: to gauge how powerful the weapon is, the impact it
Speaker 1: has a close range, and of course the recoil, which
Speaker 1: is the pushback of the gun when it's fine.
Speaker 5: Okay, So that.
Speaker 9: Actually surprises me a little bit that we had that
Speaker 9: much recoil. Let's go ahead and clear it, load it
Speaker 9: up again, maybe this time you know, obviously rings to
Speaker 9: one by one, but I think it's worthwhile to do
Speaker 9: that a couple more times, uh, to see how.
Speaker 5: We can help how that gun.
Speaker 9: If it's clear, that's a lot more powerful than I anticipated.
Speaker 4: It to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and much more concussive.
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, no, there's definitely definitely without ear protection and
Speaker 9: with close proximity to that weapon being discharged in that
Speaker 9: small space, would you concur that there would be some
Speaker 9: concussive effects?
Speaker 1: Absolutely?
Speaker 8: Yeah, Yeah, you're gonna gonna have a concussive effects. That's
Speaker 8: a pressure wave coming at the end of the barrel.
Speaker 9: Yeah, and in that confined space you saw this indoors, Yeah,
Speaker 9: indoors in the studio, in the bedroom, and in that
Speaker 9: little concave, you know, in that little doorway, especially with
Speaker 9: three sides, but nowhere for that sound to go.
Speaker 5: I think anybody in that room would be affected.
Speaker 1: Substantially without hearing protection.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Yeah, depending on how far that barrel was pressed against
Speaker 8: the skull, that might muffle the sound a little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 8: some of the sound way went because some of the
Speaker 8: gases might enter into the skull, and that's gonna cause
Speaker 8: them that slight muffling effect.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 8: But yeah, in a smaller room, it's gonna be it's
Speaker 8: gonna be even louder than we was experiencing right here, right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, that was very beneficial.
Speaker 9: I said, let's do that a couple more times and
Speaker 9: then and then we'll go to the we've got the
Speaker 9: audio now, and we've got a couple more kicks.
Speaker 5: We've got a five inch kick approximately. I'd say, let's
Speaker 5: try to get it.
Speaker 9: But maybe through a variation of your trigger pull and
Speaker 9: you know, see what other kind of effects you can
Speaker 9: get on handling the gun.
Speaker 5: I think I'm learning a lot by just watching you
Speaker 5: do this. I think this is really helpful.
Speaker 8: Okay, whippons loaded. Everyone ready, Ye, Pifey's off. Hey, testing,
Speaker 8: So we look at the backside of the target. We
Speaker 8: can see the projectile hole right there.
Speaker 9: We got the projectile hole right here about a centimeter
Speaker 9: as you mentioned.
Speaker 5: And then and that's the backside of the target. And
Speaker 5: on the front side of the.
Speaker 9: Target, we've got this blast radius from the gas coming
Speaker 9: out of the gun and you can see the devastating
Speaker 9: nature of that.
Speaker 5: In this demonstration here, So.
Speaker 9: Once again confirming immediate incapacitation upon the bullet entering the
Speaker 9: head and devastating injuries, you know.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think you know.
Speaker 9: The idea that this gun is a low caliber or
Speaker 9: not a twelve gage shotgun, I don't think there's any
Speaker 9: bearing on the devastation that this gun can do.
Speaker 5: Is a powerful shotgun.
Speaker 8: Yes, it's designed for killing small things, but on a
Speaker 8: human body, it's still going to be fatal.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think it's arranges. Yeah, there's powerful.
Speaker 1: We first made contact with Scott Rhoda about two years
Speaker 1: ago now to see if this was a case that
Speaker 1: he could lend his expertise. His resume is extensive, having
Speaker 1: consulted in more than fifteen hundred cases since two thousand
Speaker 1: and one. They include reconstructions of the manner of death
Speaker 1: of George Floyd, Michael Biker, Sherlock, and most famously Rever Stemcamp,
Speaker 1: whose boyfriend South African former Olympic sprinter Oscar Pistorius was
Speaker 1: finally convicted of her murder in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 7: Guilty of murder, with the accused having had criminal intentions
Speaker 7: for thurs.
Speaker 1: Here, Rooda is trying to determine where the gun should
Speaker 1: have landed based on Amy's position as presented at the inquest.
Speaker 1: Despite tests already having been undertaken by biomechanical experts, Roda
Speaker 1: is doing an independent assessment, which means carrying out his
Speaker 1: own testing and going through the various scenarios of what
Speaker 1: was possible given the forensic evidence of the room and
Speaker 1: the position of Amy's body when she was discovered.
Speaker 9: Well, let's say hypothetically we have a right hand pull
Speaker 9: with a right hand hold and becoming immediately incapacitated. That
Speaker 9: gun is going to fly in the right direction so
Speaker 9: soon as the trigger's pulled that God's going to be
Speaker 9: flying after the rate, substantially out of her hand.
Speaker 8: If you're holding onto that gun one hand with a
Speaker 8: weak hold, just depressing the trigger, the gun's going to
Speaker 8: fly out of your hand.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, substantially.
Speaker 9: There's no scenario where that gun could defy the forces
Speaker 9: of nature and go toward the body with the butt
Speaker 9: being between the legs.
Speaker 5: Yeah. This is not a one hand pull gun. This
Speaker 5: is guns designed for a two hand.
Speaker 8: Pull, steady halled, two handed and absorbing some of that
Speaker 8: recoal in both your arms and against your shoulder.
Speaker 9: If Amy was to have pulled this trigger in some
Speaker 9: kind of a scenario that it might fit the physical evidence,
Speaker 9: clearly the gun would have.
Speaker 5: Flown out of her hand and off to the right
Speaker 5: of her body.
Speaker 9: There's no way the gun would be in the documented
Speaker 9: position that we had from the friend, or from the
Speaker 9: father or from law enforcement. So I think this clearly
Speaker 9: confirms for me this was not unassisted shot. This was
Speaker 9: not unassisted. This was done by another individual.
Speaker 1: Scott Rhoda heads up the US based company Evidence Room,
Speaker 1: comprising a team of forensic and computer animation experts who
Speaker 1: provide insight based on the evidence presented at the crime scene, and.
Speaker 9: Then the butt of the gun would be pushed out
Speaker 9: this way, opposite, in opposite.
Speaker 1: For this case, Rhoda brought with him Pat Mooney, who
Speaker 1: specializes in the physical and virtual recreation of the crime
Speaker 1: scene itself.
Speaker 10: With the butt by your feet, muzzle towards her head.
Speaker 1: We're at a warehouse in Merrickville where they've developed a
Speaker 1: model to the exact scale of the bedroom Amy's body
Speaker 1: was found.
Speaker 11: So let's assume this was self inflicted for a moment.
Speaker 1: Their first test aims to find out whether Amy could
Speaker 1: have used her left hand to shoot herself, and.
Speaker 9: The gun was in this documented position with the butt
Speaker 9: of the gun along the left ankle and the gun
Speaker 9: chat wound out of the right the right hands under
Speaker 9: the right bidock.
Speaker 11: One the blood would be an entirely.
Speaker 9: Different tape of a position. So I think we can
Speaker 9: conclude say that the position the gun was documented to
Speaker 9: be in between her legs more towards her left ankle,
Speaker 9: is not at all consistent with any evidence we see here,
Speaker 9: and I think we can rule that out completely completely
Speaker 9: as being part of the scenario.
Speaker 11: So now I think we have to factor in.
Speaker 10: The evidence was.
Speaker 9: Polluted by a minimum of two people prior to officers
Speaker 9: being able to document the condition. So the reliability of
Speaker 9: this being an actual position related to some kind of
Speaker 9: a self inflicted gunshot wound, I think doesn't pass any
Speaker 9: test whatsoever. So the second scenario would be, would Amy,
Speaker 9: without being able to use her right arm, be able
Speaker 9: to stabilize the gun to create the wound from a
Speaker 9: ninety degree right to left in the right temple and
Speaker 9: produce blood on the opposite wall by either resting it
Speaker 9: on the bed, which I think that's what you're showing
Speaker 9: here now, right, to use the bed kind of as
Speaker 9: a as a stabilizer, But you can't use that much
Speaker 9: of the bed as a stabilizer because the angle it's
Speaker 9: got to kind.
Speaker 10: Of rest on the edge, right, Yeah, it's such a
Speaker 10: tight area.
Speaker 9: And say, for example, let's say she pulls the trigger there,
Speaker 9: the gun's going to fall directly.
Speaker 11: Like horizontal with the body or parallel.
Speaker 12: Or almost in a similar position as as the other scenario, right,
Speaker 12: which doesn't fit. Right, which doesn't fit at all. And
Speaker 12: then the other scenario is having the gun on the floor,
Speaker 12: using the floor as the.
Speaker 9: Stabilizer for the weapon, and then the head being the
Speaker 9: other stabilizer with the left hand kind of holding it
Speaker 9: into place here, but still you need to use the
Speaker 9: right hand to pull the trigger.
Speaker 10: And that doesn't fit our trajectory angle well.
Speaker 9: And you can't get the right hand underneath the right
Speaker 9: buttock or the right thigh. You can't get it underneath
Speaker 9: the body. Because I think we've been clear and the
Speaker 9: record is clear, and it's on the record that this
Speaker 9: would be an immediately incapacitating shot with no purposeful movement
Speaker 9: after the trigger is fired. So I think having the
Speaker 9: gun being propped on the ground as a stabilizer is
Speaker 9: also now ruled out because you cannot pull the trigger
Speaker 9: and get the hand underneath the right buttock prior to.
Speaker 5: The shot.
Speaker 9: The shot, it's an ending shot, it's over, and once
Speaker 9: the trigger is pulled, it's over. She's now immediately incapacitated,
Speaker 9: and there's really not going to be any way to
Speaker 9: get that right hand underneath or bomb.
Speaker 11: Post shot, not at all.
Speaker 10: And there's no way to do the angle does not match.
Speaker 1: Then there's the question of how drops of blood were
Speaker 1: found inside the firearm, which they examine.
Speaker 11: But do you see blood seeping into the crack of
Speaker 11: the gun.
Speaker 10: It looks like a pretty tight fit. It's almost seamless.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 9: The only seam I see is on the side right
Speaker 9: in here, tiny little corner there and little corner there,
Speaker 9: But the seam right here is flawless. So the chances
Speaker 9: of blood getting in here without.
Speaker 11: The gun being cracked, without the gun open, yeah, without the.
Speaker 9: Gun being open, there's really no way to get blood
Speaker 9: into this area. The only way I think blood could
Speaker 9: get into into this area here is if the gun
Speaker 9: is already covered in blood and then a witness or
Speaker 9: an accomplice or someone anyone doesn't matter who came in
Speaker 9: unloaded the gun and then the blood from the execure
Speaker 9: then seeped in that way.
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's a possibility. But for the blood to.
Speaker 9: Get in the gun without deliberately opening the without the
Speaker 9: opening gun to take the ammunition out, I don't think
Speaker 9: that's going to be possible.
Speaker 10: But we can do that test, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: They also discuss the circumstances of Amy's death, such as
Speaker 1: the language Simmons used in his phone call to triple zero.
Speaker 9: So we have a triple zero call by Simmons Ambulance.
Speaker 9: What's the address of the emergency from the operator twenty
Speaker 9: seven eighty three Southwestern Highway, Serpentine. Okay, tell me exactly
Speaker 9: what happened. Somebody shot himself in the head. That's what
Speaker 9: the first quote is, Okay, from the Triple zero call
Speaker 9: by mister Simmons, who is the romantic partner of the deceased.
Speaker 9: So right out of the gate, when the operator of
Speaker 9: Triple zero, and this is important to nail this down.
Speaker 10: I think, is somebody shot himself in the head.
Speaker 11: Somebody shot himself in the head.
Speaker 9: I mean, it could be some local colloquialisms there himself
Speaker 9: herself themself whatever.
Speaker 11: That doesn't bother me. But the fact that it says
Speaker 11: somebody shot himself in.
Speaker 10: The head, yeah, I'm very vague.
Speaker 13: Right.
Speaker 9: If I walked into say my wife who has apparently
Speaker 9: been shot, and I'm calling Triple zero, I'm not saying somebody, Yeah,
Speaker 9: you would say my wife.
Speaker 11: Amy.
Speaker 9: So the fact that mister Simmons has somebody shot himself
Speaker 9: in the head, Triple zero operator, okay, are you there
Speaker 9: with the person at the moment.
Speaker 11: No, I'm not draw down service.
Speaker 9: I had to drive down to the service station because
Speaker 9: my phone is broken. I have two kids, and my
Speaker 9: wife has shot herself. There's a lot there no, I'm not.
Speaker 9: I had to drive down to the service station because
Speaker 9: my phone is broken. I have two kids, I'm assuming
Speaker 9: meaning with me, and my wife has shot herself operator.
Speaker 11: Okay, how old is she? How old is she? Twenty three?
Speaker 11: I just she's dead.
Speaker 9: The language being used to describe now, mind you, of
Speaker 9: course you have to factor in I think post traumatic stress, right,
Speaker 9: if you reaction to the situation, right, maybe some people
Speaker 9: have a colder reaction or you know, so just so forth,
Speaker 9: So I guess we can't go too off the deep
Speaker 9: end with the analysis just yet.
Speaker 11: But there's more. How old is she? How old is she?
Speaker 11: Twenty three?
Speaker 9: I just she's dead, right, Okay? All right, so she's
Speaker 9: not conscious or breathing. Okay, but he's not there anymore.
Speaker 9: He's already gone because I'm assuming to say that he
Speaker 9: has a broken phone that he can so as important
Speaker 9: to mister Simmons in this triple zero call as the
Speaker 9: fact that Amy is possibly.
Speaker 11: Dead or is dead, is that also his phone is broken?
Speaker 9: I think the same level of detail has been given
Speaker 9: about both subjects so far in this very critical triple
Speaker 9: zero call. Okay, so all right, so she's not conscious
Speaker 9: for breathing, yes, I've got kids in the car. I'm
Speaker 9: going to have to take them to their alright, and
Speaker 9: I have a mate standing on the highway. Okay, can
Speaker 9: you just please come and take her or do something.
Speaker 13: Something.
Speaker 9: I'm kind of at a loss for words.
Speaker 11: Could just come take her and do something?
Speaker 10: Okay?
Speaker 11: So, yes, we're going to get that organized.
Speaker 10: So that was R.
Speaker 11: Jay Simmons, R and B. Simmons, R and B. Simmons.
Speaker 9: Okay, what is your name, sir, David Simmons. Why did
Speaker 9: she fucking do that? That's what David Simmons says. Okay,
Speaker 9: I'm going to get that organized for you straight away.
Speaker 9: Mister Simmons says, all right, thank you very much. All right,
Speaker 9: see you all all right by all right, end of
Speaker 9: the Triple zero call.
Speaker 1: In her findings, the Kroner indicates she believed David simmons testimony.
Speaker 1: But before we proceed with what she said, we just
Speaker 1: want to apologize in advance for some of the wording
Speaker 1: used here and elsewhere in this podcast. When discussing suicide.
Speaker 1: We're aware that it should never be classified as committing suicide,
Speaker 1: but taking one's own life or dying by suicide. However,
Speaker 1: for accuracy we are quoting from transcripts provided to us.
Speaker 14: David Simmons denied having any involvement in Amy's death and
Speaker 14: maintained his position that Amy committed suicide. In my view,
Speaker 14: there were aspects of David's evidence that minimized the difficulties
Speaker 14: of his relationship with Amy and his controlling and aggressive
Speaker 14: behavior towards her, but there was nothing in his demeanor
Speaker 14: to suggest he was lying about how Amy died. Further,
Speaker 14: I give some weight to the limited opportunity the two
Speaker 14: men had to concoct a story, given the short time
Speaker 14: frame between when Amy spoke to Nancy and their arrival
Speaker 14: at the Serpentine roadhouse. Weighing against the evidence of Amy's
Speaker 14: family is the evidence that Amy had been diagnosed with
Speaker 14: anxiety and depression, which has a known association the increased
Speaker 14: risk of suicide, and was clearly in a tumultuous relationship
Speaker 14: that had made her deeply unhappy at times. She was
Speaker 14: separated from David a number of times, but they always
Speaker 14: got back together, which may well have created some sense
Speaker 14: of futility in her mind as to her prospects of
Speaker 14: ever escaping the relationship. Some of her messages to friends
Speaker 14: and even to David indicate that she felt caught in
Speaker 14: a vicious cycle where she loved him and wanted to
Speaker 14: keep her family unit together, but felt like David would
Speaker 14: never change. I accept that Amy loved her daughters unconditionally,
Speaker 14: but many people who love their family sadly do commit
Speaker 14: suicide in moments of despair without thinking through the tragic consequences.
Speaker 1: So just noting here that contrary to the analysis of
Speaker 1: evidence by experts, the coroner still considers suicide an option
Speaker 1: in Amy's manner of death. I catch up with Skill
Speaker 1: to discuss what the evidence tells him happened to Ami
Speaker 1: and the why her caise has been handled todight.
Speaker 11: There's so many things that trouble me about this.
Speaker 9: The number one thing is the position in which she's
Speaker 9: located is not in a position you would expect.
Speaker 11: Somebody who is taking their own life.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 11: She's in a position that is not comfortable. It's not
Speaker 11: a position that you would naturally be in.
Speaker 9: I would think that if there was a deliberate self
Speaker 9: inflicted gunshot wound, maybe you'd be on the bed, you'd
Speaker 9: be sitting in a place. Because, especially when it comes
Speaker 9: to women and suicide, they tend statistically to not do
Speaker 9: things that are messy or bloody, right because they know
Speaker 9: they're going to be found by people that love them.
Speaker 11: And it's just to me, does not.
Speaker 9: Strike at all as a suicide scene when we look
Speaker 9: at the corners details of the report, which demonstrates that
Speaker 9: there's a pneumothorax on her left chest. So deep bruce, Yeah,
Speaker 9: deep bruise on a left chest. And now we can't
Speaker 9: time how soon before the shot that that bruce happened,
Speaker 9: but that bruce is there, and it's incredibly suspicious and
Speaker 9: to me indicates that there was violence. And even if
Speaker 9: you look at the photograph, the selfie that Amy took
Speaker 9: sitting on the bed right there into that mirror, to me,
Speaker 9: that was a protest photograph like don't mess with me.
Speaker 1: I've got the gun, I'm in control, I'm.
Speaker 9: In control of my life, this is my life. That
Speaker 9: was a protest picture. That was not a picture foreshadowing
Speaker 9: a suicide. That was a picture of strength and self empowerment,
Speaker 9: like I've got this, don't mess with me.
Speaker 11: That's what that picture says to me.
Speaker 1: And yet less than an hour lighter, that's where she is.
Speaker 9: She stayed, Yeah, crammed between a door, so that you
Speaker 9: can barely open the door with blood on the left
Speaker 9: side on this wall here at about chair level, with
Speaker 9: bruising on her chest, bruising on her buttock, with her
Speaker 9: right hand properly under her right buttock, so which means
Speaker 9: that that takes her right hand out of play to
Speaker 9: pull the trigger.
Speaker 1: Well, if she's pulled the trigger with her left hand,
Speaker 1: as the police insisted, yeah, Hall the heck has she
Speaker 1: done that?
Speaker 10: You cannot do it.
Speaker 9: You cannot have a shot to the right side of
Speaker 9: the forehead right at the temple at ninety degrees, being
Speaker 9: able to hold the gun out with your right hand
Speaker 9: under your buttock and even reach the trigger with your
Speaker 9: left hand. Now, mind you, the left hand cannot pull
Speaker 9: the trigger because the left hand has gunshot residue on it,
Speaker 9: meaning the left hand was wrapped around the barrel of
Speaker 9: the gun, which is the positive of the gunshot residue
Speaker 9: and burning on the interior of her left hand, and
Speaker 9: that's a defensive wound.
Speaker 7: As you know. The same conclusions were made at the inquest,
Speaker 7: except they've tried to reason that it was possible Amy
Speaker 7: used her right hand. The currenter concluded in her findings.
Speaker 14: I have some reservations about how much weight I can
Speaker 14: give to the biomechanical expert opinions given the limitations in
Speaker 14: the testing. However, I have indicated that I am persuaded
Speaker 14: by those opinions that the position of Amy's right hand
Speaker 14: in the photographs taken by Senior Constable Reynolds raises doubt
Speaker 14: as to whether Amy committed suicide, given the results of
Speaker 14: the biomechanical testing and their general expert opinions as to
Speaker 14: the positioning of her hand in that manner. Counsel for
Speaker 14: the family also pointed to the absence of gunshot residue
Speaker 14: on Amy's right hand, but I consider this evidence less
Speaker 14: compelling given the limitations of this type of forensic evidence
Speaker 14: and the qualifications of doctor Pitts. Doctor Pitts could not
Speaker 14: exclude the possibility that Amy pulled the trigger of the
Speaker 14: shotgun with her right hand and then fell underneath her
Speaker 14: body before the gunshot residue settled. The absence of fingerprints
Speaker 14: on the shotgun and her blood inside the breech face
Speaker 14: and barrel chamber also did not advance the case given
Speaker 14: the other explanations provided by expert witnesses.
Speaker 7: While not wishing to give weight to the biomechanical analysis
Speaker 7: on the basis the testing had too many limitations. Her
Speaker 7: honor surprisingly determines the selfie taken by Amy half an
Speaker 7: hour before her death was objective evidence supporting suicide. Objective
Speaker 7: is the word she uses in mind that the selfie
Speaker 7: was taken after her confrontation with Simmons, but before Amy
Speaker 7: spoke to her mum, Nancy, who she told she was
Speaker 7: on her way.
Speaker 4: Oh I will I'll see you soon, I will come.
Speaker 14: In my view, the existence of the photograph adds weight
Speaker 14: to the possibility that Amy committed suicide. Although it is
Speaker 14: not conclusive, it shows she had access to the shotgun
Speaker 14: when alone in the bedroom only minutes before she died.
Speaker 14: As a result of discharging as a coroner, I have
Speaker 14: seen many similar photographs in other cases where a person
Speaker 14: has taken a photograph of themselves with an item that
Speaker 14: they then subsequently use to take their own life. Often
Speaker 14: they'll send the photograph to family or friends beforehand, but
Speaker 14: not always. The photography is not by definition a suicide note,
Speaker 14: but it is often a way of documenting their intention.
Speaker 14: I accept that there might be other reasons Amy took
Speaker 14: the photography, including perhaps with an intention to send a
Speaker 14: warning to David that she had a firearm and might
Speaker 14: be prepared to pecked herself with it. There's no evidence
Speaker 14: she sent the photo to him, but there was evidence
Speaker 14: that the mobile coverage in that area was often poor,
Speaker 14: which could explain why she did not send it, either
Speaker 14: as an indication of her intention to commit suicide or
Speaker 14: a warning.
Speaker 7: What doesn't make sense here is how the coroner could
Speaker 7: draw any conclusion on the photo when it's impossible to
Speaker 7: know what Amy was thinking when she took it, especially
Speaker 7: as she did not even know Amy, Whereas the actual
Speaker 7: objective evidence of experts carrying out testing based on the
Speaker 7: facts known in Amy's case is given significantly less weight.
Speaker 5: She could stabilize the gun and pull the trigger with
Speaker 5: her right hand.
Speaker 7: It's possible back to Liam's interview with Scott where they
Speaker 7: discussed the position of the gun in relation to Amy's body.
Speaker 7: According to people who were there the night she died, this.
Speaker 1: Is how Amy was found. This is the exact position,
Speaker 1: and this is the exact dimensions. How the heck did
Speaker 1: the gun end up like that?
Speaker 11: Well, the answer is very simple. The gun did not
Speaker 11: end up like that.
Speaker 9: Somebody just said the gun was like that, because we
Speaker 9: have a polluted crime scene. Before the police officer comes
Speaker 9: into the scene, we have a minimum of two people,
Speaker 9: possibly three people other than Amy that have already interacted
Speaker 9: with the gun and the scene. And those people I
Speaker 9: don't believe were properly quarantined, questioned, examined, searched, and tested
Speaker 9: to test the veracity of what they said they did,
Speaker 9: which clearly they manipulated the crime scene.
Speaker 11: They polluted the crime scene.
Speaker 1: Well, you've seen a lot of these sort of scenes.
Speaker 11: Unfortunately, yes, over the years.
Speaker 1: So what do you think on first glance and looking
Speaker 1: at all the forensic analysis, is this a murder saying?
Speaker 1: Or is this a suicide saying?
Speaker 11: One hundred percent? This is a murder scene one hundred percent.
Speaker 9: This is a as a matter of fact, every police investigation,
Speaker 9: when you have a suspicious death, you must start with murder.
Speaker 9: You must assume that it's murder, and then work the
Speaker 9: evidence to either confirm the murder or another hypothesis. But
Speaker 9: if you don't start with murder, you're going to miss
Speaker 9: critical evidence, and unfortunately happen to be in the situation
Speaker 9: that we're in now where it's ten years later and
Speaker 9: we're rehashing things that should have been done the day
Speaker 9: of the death, and that's tragic.
Speaker 1: Scott. That is quite a big gun. I mean, I
Speaker 1: know it's a small gun in a shotgun way, but
Speaker 1: it's still quite a big gun. Especially you can see
Speaker 1: the dimensions of the time of Amy's body. For a
Speaker 1: slightly built lady that she was, that's quite a big gun.
Speaker 15: Yeah.
Speaker 1: How the heck could she have with her left hand,
Speaker 1: as the police say, raise that up this way, horizontal
Speaker 1: to the floor and shoot it, because that's what they
Speaker 1: maintained at the coronial inquest.
Speaker 9: Well, I would like to be at that Coronial in
Speaker 9: Quest part two to put some questions to them, because
Speaker 9: I don't think that they can answer the questions, and
Speaker 9: we intend to prove, and I think that we have
Speaker 9: proven so far based on the evidence, that that's just
Speaker 9: just wrong.
Speaker 5: It's just wrong.
Speaker 11: However, we can.
Speaker 9: Put together an experiment to substantiate what we believe is
Speaker 9: the most reasonable to a degree of scientific certainty, we
Speaker 9: can do that they cannot.
Speaker 1: Well, given the position of the body, given the dimensions
Speaker 1: of this room, the blood spatter where it was. What's
Speaker 1: your biggest issue, what's your biggest single problem with finding
Speaker 1: of suicide.
Speaker 9: I think the thing is it's the totality of the circumstances.
Speaker 9: It always comes down to the interrelationship of the evidence
Speaker 9: that SuDS everything of everything because I first, whenever we
Speaker 9: do any kind of a homicide investigation, it's about the
Speaker 9: contextual analysis.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 9: So we've got two children, Amy's two children in the
Speaker 9: car just however many yards out that way with the
Speaker 9: car on the kids in the car, right, and she's
Speaker 9: just popping back in the house for a second, right,
Speaker 9: and she's going to commit suicide. That doesn't make any sense, right,
Speaker 9: doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 7: Even if taking into consideration the body being moved. There's
Speaker 7: no scenario with the available evidence that makes sense to
Speaker 7: rote out.
Speaker 9: There's got a trigger pull, right, you take some power
Speaker 9: to pull that away, right, because if the gun is
Speaker 9: this way, she's got to pull the trigger that way,
Speaker 9: and pull the trigger that way.
Speaker 6: She's got to push it out right and keeping.
Speaker 11: It in close contact. But then.
Speaker 9: Maybe she could have done it with the right hand,
Speaker 9: but the right hand's properly under her buck, so that's
Speaker 9: not possible. So there's another scenario that we could try
Speaker 9: to work out for possibility is maybe the gun was
Speaker 9: propped on the ground, using the ground as the as
Speaker 9: the force. And then if you could just take your
Speaker 9: left hand and put it around the barrel and put
Speaker 9: it towards your temple like that, Okay, and then and
Speaker 9: then but then, okay, it.
Speaker 11: Would still require her to pull the trigger.
Speaker 9: With her right hand, which cannot do because it's under
Speaker 9: her right bum properly. And if she did it this way,
Speaker 9: the spatter would be an upward trajectory and the shape
Speaker 9: of the wound wouldn't be symmetrical, but it would be elliptical.
Speaker 6: It would be it would be an.
Speaker 11: Elliptical shape, and the wound would spray out this way.
Speaker 11: But that's not what the corner says.
Speaker 9: The corner says it was ninety degrees straight, straight level plane.
Speaker 1: Yeah, horizontal to the ground.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 9: So there's really no scenario left hand, right hand, because
Speaker 9: you have to factor.
Speaker 11: In what we have known variables. Right we have known data.
Speaker 11: The right hand is under the bum.
Speaker 9: Her left hand has got burn marks around it, which
Speaker 9: means it was in contact with the barrel as the
Speaker 9: barrel as the.
Speaker 11: Gun was fired.
Speaker 9: So the left hand can't pull the trigger, the right
Speaker 9: can can't pull the trigger, and as an investigator, Liam
Speaker 9: is becoming pretty obvious she didn't pull the trigger.
Speaker 1: There's no scenario that you can concoct here now with scale,
Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form that gets you to
Speaker 1: the point where she pulls the trigger.
Speaker 9: Now, there's no scenario based on the evidence that we have,
Speaker 9: where she could do this by herself.
Speaker 11: Just nothing could happen that way, just can't happen.
Speaker 7: Scott Rohder and his team of forensic experts are convinced
Speaker 7: Amy didn't take her own life.
Speaker 11: This is not a suicide. I'm telling you one hundred
Speaker 11: percent not a suicide.
Speaker 7: And as you'll recall, there is now a one million
Speaker 7: dollar reward for anyone with information that will lead to
Speaker 7: a conviction. But because of the current's open finding, there
Speaker 7: doesn't seem to be any urgent and the idea it
Speaker 7: could have been suicide still casts a dark shadow over
Speaker 7: the possibility of progress in the case.
Speaker 1: I mean, there are so many variables that have been
Speaker 1: poured over. What sticks out for you?
Speaker 9: The first thing I think that sticks out for me
Speaker 9: is that Amy was trapped. The position that she's found
Speaker 9: in her final resting position, it looks like she was trapped.
Speaker 1: So that's a red flag to you straight up, as
Speaker 1: it was for the uniformed officers who first turned up
Speaker 1: and first viewed that scene. And yet when the detectives
Speaker 1: turned up, none of those bells and whistles went off.
Speaker 1: Are you surprised, knowing what you know now, are you
Speaker 1: surprised the detectives so quickly put that into the suicide basket?
Speaker 6: Well, I'm shocked, frankly.
Speaker 9: Surprises, and I think strong enough, I'm shocked, and it's inexplicable.
Speaker 9: It's unexplainable to look at a woman who has no
Speaker 9: cause or history to commit suicide. She's in a trapped space, confined,
Speaker 9: and to just put it in the basket of suicide
Speaker 9: is frankly against all principles of forensic science and homicide investigation.
Speaker 14: It became clear by the end of the inquest that
Speaker 14: very few of the witnesses were neutral in their position
Speaker 14: as to how Amy died. While acknowledging the importance of
Speaker 14: the evidence and opinion of all the witnesses, there are
Speaker 14: several opinions that stand out to me as carrying particular weight.
Speaker 7: The Deputy State Coroner doesn't refer to any of the
Speaker 7: forensic experts here, only police officers including those first unseen,
Speaker 7: the officer responsible for undertaking the coronial investigation, the head
Speaker 7: of the cold case homicide review team, and former homicide
Speaker 7: detective Ron Eddels. You'll hear from mister Eddels shortly.
Speaker 14: What I take from these various opinions is that while
Speaker 14: the available evidence points to Amy having made an impulsive
Speaker 14: and tragic decision to take her life, a number of
Speaker 14: experienced police investigators continue to have reservations about this case
Speaker 14: and retain some doubt about the conclusion Amy committed suicide.
Speaker 14: While none of them have been able to identify evidence
Speaker 14: that would go anyway towards proving that another person was
Speaker 14: involved in her death, they are also not satisfied that
Speaker 14: it can be ruled out based on their training, experience
Speaker 14: and gut instincts.
Speaker 7: Scott Rhoda would beg to differ.
Speaker 9: We've done dozens and dozens of investigations where it's been
Speaker 9: ruled initially a suicide and then after some work, you know,
Speaker 9: we've determined to a degree of scientific certainty that it
Speaker 9: was a homicide.
Speaker 6: This case is one of those cases.
Speaker 1: What's the biggest roadblock for you in accepting the police
Speaker 1: position that it was suicide?
Speaker 6: Well, I just can't accept their position.
Speaker 9: But the biggest roadblock is the physical and the forensic
Speaker 9: evidence and the inter relationship of that evidence to the
Speaker 9: factual scenario of how we even get to the triple
Speaker 9: zero phone call. You know, it's not all about just
Speaker 9: bullet trajectory, blood spatter, and body position. It's what that
Speaker 9: tells you about what was happening prior to the shot
Speaker 9: being fired. And we have all kinds of evidence in
Speaker 9: this case that tell us she was trying to escape
Speaker 9: that life, not end that life.
Speaker 1: Often in court these things come up in terms of probability.
Speaker 1: Do you think there is any probability that Amy killed herself?
Speaker 6: No, No, one under.
Speaker 1: This is a homicide. You wouldn't even give it a chance.
Speaker 1: No statistical attribution whatsoever to Amy killing herself.
Speaker 9: I'll explain it this way. There is a chance that
Speaker 9: I'm a hologram sitting here talking to you. There's a chance.
Speaker 9: It's not probable, though, Liam, I'm really here. But there's
Speaker 9: a chance that I'm a hologram. Small chance.
Speaker 1: I put it on that level, so almost absurd.
Speaker 9: Yeah, it is absurd, honestly, when you look at the
Speaker 9: totality of the evidence, when you look at her body position.
Speaker 9: When you look at her wounds, you look at the
Speaker 9: position of her hands. She could not physically do.
Speaker 6: This to herself.
Speaker 1: I take what you say about the totality of evidence,
Speaker 1: and that's safer. But can we just talk about the gun, sure,
Speaker 1: just the gun and the gun shot, the gun that
Speaker 1: Amy used. Is there any way physically that you can
Speaker 1: see that she could have used her own hand to
Speaker 1: pull that trigger.
Speaker 9: Yes, but it's not possible for her to discharge it,
Speaker 9: and it be consistent with the wound, the trajectory, the
Speaker 9: blood spatter, and honestly.
Speaker 6: Her hand positions.
Speaker 9: Anybody can grab that gun and shoot it right, but
Speaker 9: you cannot do it if you factor in what I
Speaker 9: would call known values, and the known values in the
Speaker 9: scientific aspect of the evaluation of this case are Her
Speaker 9: right hand is out of play from pulling the trigger
Speaker 9: or stabilizing the gun because of the position it's in,
Speaker 9: which is under her right buttock. That's out of play.
Speaker 9: Her left hand is out of play from pulling the
Speaker 9: trigger because it's got burn marks and gunshot residue around
Speaker 9: the palmer aspect of the webbing between her thumb and forefinger,
Speaker 9: so that hand is out of play.
Speaker 6: Of pulling the trigger as well.
Speaker 9: Also, we had a wonderful model come in with same
Speaker 9: height and weight to play Amy's character, and she couldn't
Speaker 9: even get enough finger strength to pull the trigger in
Speaker 9: the opposite direction with her left hand.
Speaker 7: There are three things that can happen from here. The
Speaker 7: Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions can build a
Speaker 7: case to prosecute, a new inquest can be held to
Speaker 7: determine if suicide can be ruled out, or they can
Speaker 7: do nothing at all.
Speaker 1: Liam R.
Speaker 7: Scott Rhoda about some of the facts that Coron and
Speaker 7: Sarah Linton used in twenty twenty one to justify not
Speaker 7: ruling out suicide.
Speaker 1: Let me go to that selfie. You've seen it, haven't you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the selfie that Amy took less than thirty minutes before
Speaker 1: she died, holding the gun in room. That's been painted
Speaker 1: as very much an indicator that she was having suicidal thoughts.
Speaker 1: Do you agree with that?
Speaker 6: Absolutely not.
Speaker 9: No. I think that selfie of her on the bed,
Speaker 9: I think that's a statement of power, you know that
Speaker 9: seeing don't mess with me.
Speaker 6: I'm armed.
Speaker 9: I'm going to protect myself. I believe that's what that
Speaker 9: picture says me. Not some indication towards suicide Limb.
Speaker 1: So the total opposite.
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, that's all opposite.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm trying to ask you questions without the benefit
Speaker 1: of hindsight, which is difficult, but I think it's necessary
Speaker 1: because there's no good either of us looking in the
Speaker 1: rearview mirror and saying, aha, I know this now because
Speaker 1: of dot dot dot. I'm trying to work out how
Speaker 1: two detectives could view this scene even without the sort
Speaker 1: of detailed analysis that you've already done, and so quickly
Speaker 1: come to the conclude us that it was self harm.
Speaker 1: I just I just can't. I'm not a police officer's scolpt,
Speaker 1: but I can't wrap my hit around that.
Speaker 9: I can't rep mad around it either, lamb uh. And
Speaker 9: for a trained investigator, for a trained detective, police officer,
Speaker 9: constable first responder, this country, my country, any country, it's
Speaker 9: just beyond the pale to just not do an investigation.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. The whole concept of amy suiciding was
Speaker 1: actually suggested by one of the people who were there
Speaker 1: on the scene before police even got there. Right.
Speaker 9: That triple zero phone call is an important piece of evidence.
Speaker 9: There's there's things in that call that are such red flags.
Speaker 9: Just get rid of her, get rid of the body,
Speaker 9: do something. It's so flippant, it's so a lack of emotion,
Speaker 9: lack of caring.
Speaker 1: Can you please just come and do something so away
Speaker 1: from any forensic analysis, before you even get to the scene.
Speaker 1: You think that that first phone call that David Simmons
Speaker 1: made in itself gave police a story they should have
Speaker 1: followed up.
Speaker 9: Absolutely, he put a story to the police on the
Speaker 9: record right out of the box that one it was suicide. Two,
Speaker 9: don't check my phone because it's broken, right, and get
Speaker 9: rid of the body. I want to nail him down
Speaker 9: in a chair for hours and hours and hours and
Speaker 9: put those questions to him and see where we get
Speaker 9: with it, because I'm not sure that was done properly in.
Speaker 1: Any cases that you've looked at around the world, Scott,
Speaker 1: have you ever seen a story like this one where
Speaker 1: a young mother has her two young kids in a
Speaker 1: car only forty fifty meters away on the other side
Speaker 1: of the wall, effectively and then does something like this.
Speaker 6: No, I really have not.
Speaker 9: I mean, we've had a lot of cases where it's
Speaker 9: been put it's been put to us that there was
Speaker 9: a murder or a suicide involving a young woman, hangings, medicines,
Speaker 9: edged weapons, handguns, so.
Speaker 6: On and so forth.
Speaker 9: But not one of those scenarios, whether we found it
Speaker 9: to be a suicide or a murderer, not one of
Speaker 9: those scenarios. Did we have kids in a car waiting
Speaker 9: for the mother at the time that happened. That's just
Speaker 9: not any woman out there, any man out there.
Speaker 6: It doesn't matter. Think about that. The two most important
Speaker 6: people in your life are in.
Speaker 9: A car with the engine on, waiting for you, with
Speaker 9: birthday presents in the car for the child's birthday the
Speaker 9: next day or the next two days. And you're gonna
Speaker 9: just I'll be right back and then go shoot yourself
Speaker 9: in the head and kill yourself like that. It's just
Speaker 9: none of it makes sense, Leam.
Speaker 5: It just you know.
Speaker 9: And there's a reason why I got on a plane
Speaker 9: from the United States and came to Australia for this
Speaker 9: case and not any other case. It's because this case
Speaker 9: is so inexplicably wrong. I wanted to be here personally
Speaker 9: to tell.
Speaker 1: You that, Well, something needs to happen, doesn't it. Because
Speaker 1: we've had a rash of domestic violence incidents in recent times,
Speaker 1: and it's been trending. I mean, the build up has
Speaker 1: just been why I and above anything that it should be.
Speaker 9: Yeah, listen, no woman should have to suffer from abuse
Speaker 9: from their partner ever, ever, ever, and you should always
Speaker 9: error on the side. I think of the woman in
Speaker 9: a domestic violence situation because you know, whether people want
Speaker 9: to argue about it or not, the male partner is
Speaker 9: oftentimes stronger, has the ability to physically injure the person. Right,
Speaker 9: There's never an excuse for it in any situation whatsoever.
Speaker 9: I think this should be a call to action to
Speaker 9: people to put pressure on law enforcement, on people in
Speaker 9: their families to look out for domestic violence. There's never
Speaker 9: a justification for it. I don't care your race, your age,
Speaker 9: your color, your marital status, your gender, your sexuality, none
Speaker 9: of it matters. What matters is the truth and holding
Speaker 9: people accountable for violent crimes. And in this case, nobody's
Speaker 9: been held accountable for this really violent crime and something
Speaker 9: needs to be done about it.
Speaker 7: Or is it possible to just cut to the chase
Speaker 7: and put Amy's case before a jury already.
Speaker 1: Even given that, notwithstanding that we've lost all that forensic gold,
Speaker 1: if I can put it that way.
Speaker 9: Absolutely, because what we know is there's solid, verifiable data
Speaker 9: that has been documented and although there's other evidence that's
Speaker 9: been destroyed that would have made our job a lot easier,
Speaker 9: but the basic tools to do our job are there, right,
Speaker 9: And we were saying that our business people lie, witnesses lie,
Speaker 9: but the evidence never lies, and the evidence in this
Speaker 9: case is telling a very specific truth, and that truth
Speaker 9: is that this is a homicide.
Speaker 6: And we can I think prove that.
Speaker 9: I think we have proven that based on the building
Speaker 9: blocks that we have available to us already, so the
Speaker 9: fact that evidence has been destroyed and yet we still
Speaker 9: can come to this conclusion.
Speaker 6: Definitively. It does come down to the police commitment.
Speaker 1: So an Attorney General and a Director of Public Prosecutions
Speaker 1: and a police commissioner wanted to do something, wanted to
Speaker 1: do something positive for justice. It's possible, yes. Absolutely.
Speaker 7: On twenty sixth of November twenty twenty, on behalf of
Speaker 7: Amy's family, Ashurst Lawyers, emailed former homicide detective ron Iddles
Speaker 7: to provide he's expert opinion about the manner of which
Speaker 7: Amy died and the way her case was handled by
Speaker 7: wa police.
Speaker 16: My name is Ronald William iddles And I'm a retired
Speaker 16: Victorian police officer. I've been provided with a copy of
Speaker 16: the Code of Conduct for an expert witness in Western
Speaker 16: Australia and my report complies with the Code of Conduct.
Speaker 16: I was a police officer in Victoria for forty two
Speaker 16: years and for thirty two years I investigated crime in Victoria.
Speaker 16: During my career, twenty five years was spent at the
Speaker 16: Homicide Squad Melbourne. In nineteen ninety nine I attended the
Speaker 16: Homicide Investigator's Course in Albany, New York State. My investigations
Speaker 16: from Victoria have taken me to every state in Australia
Speaker 16: and overseas to France, Spain, New Zealand, New York and Norway.
Speaker 16: I've given evidence on two hundred and thirty occasions in
Speaker 16: criminal proceedings at the Melbourne Supreme Court and countless times
Speaker 16: at the Melbourne Coroner's Office. The Homicide Squad in Victoria
Speaker 16: is responsible for investigating all suspicious deaths in Victoria, and
Speaker 16: my twenty five years attached to the squad I investigated
Speaker 16: more than one thousand suspicious deaths. The outcome of a
Speaker 16: suspicious death after investigation may be natural causes accident, misadventure,
Speaker 16: suicide or homicide. With respect to homicide, it may be
Speaker 16: murder or manslaughter, and other issues then may be whether
Speaker 16: the act was done in self defense. For twenty years
Speaker 16: of the twenty five years I was attached to the
Speaker 16: homicide squad, I held the rank of detective senior sergeant.
Speaker 16: During that time I was involved in three hundred and
Speaker 16: twenty homicide investigations and at least two hundred and fifty
Speaker 16: suicide cases. I am unable to give an exact figure
Speaker 16: a firearm was used in cases I was involved in,
Speaker 16: but would say as a minimum two hundred. Generally, when
Speaker 16: attending a suspicious death involving the use of a firearm,
Speaker 16: you work on the basis it is a homicide until
Speaker 16: you prove different. This ensures no shortcuts are taken and
Speaker 16: your conclusion is based on sound forensic evidence, witness accounts,
Speaker 16: victimology and other intelligence. Theustralian Investigation Doctrine provides the standard
Speaker 16: for investigation of incidents by police officers in Western Australia.
Speaker 16: It revolves around the crime model, contact, respond, investigate, manage
Speaker 16: and evaluation. The five key strategies are physical evidence, witnesses, intelligence,
Speaker 16: public awareness and suspect or person of interest. The initial
Speaker 16: call to police emergency was made at five eighteen pm
Speaker 16: and as a result, local police from Mundajong Police attended,
Speaker 16: being officers Blanford, Dixon and Roberts. The response to the
Speaker 16: incident by local police officers was in accordance with the
Speaker 16: Western Australian Police Investigation Doctrine crime model. In responding, they
Speaker 16: preserved the crime scene, located and isolated potential witnesses or
Speaker 16: persons of interest, and in determining if an offense had
Speaker 16: been committed, photographed the crime scene and requested detectives to attend.
Speaker 16: The taking of statements from Simmons and Price at the
Speaker 16: gate of the property was not ideal, at least it
Speaker 16: committed them to a basic account. Detectives from Row Kingham
Speaker 16: arrived around seven pm and after a short time all
Speaker 16: drove to the house where they were briefed by police
Speaker 16: officer Dixon. Kirkman and Weederman then entered the crime scene.
Speaker 16: After examination, they both formed the view the deceased Wensley
Speaker 16: had taken her own life. Concerns were raised by the
Speaker 16: uniform police and attendance, which appear to have been ignored.
Speaker 16: Dixon received a phone call at eight pm and was
Speaker 16: informed that after reading the statements of David Simmons and
Speaker 16: Gareth Price, the death was deemed non suspicious. Kirkman makes
Speaker 16: the assessment based on speaking with the first responders, examination
Speaker 16: of the crime scene, and reading the statements of Simmons
Speaker 16: and Price. Of interest, it is deemed a non suspicious
Speaker 16: death at eight pm and statements from Price and Simmons
Speaker 16: are not completed at that time. Kirkman sets out his
Speaker 16: observations and conclusions in his statement made some four years
Speaker 16: after the incident. Paragraph thirty two describes the entry wound.
Speaker 16: Paragraph forty notes no defensive wounds. In my opinion, the
Speaker 16: issue of no defensive wounds does not not established suicide.
Speaker 16: In my opinion what should have happened on the night
Speaker 16: was the crime scene should have remained a protected forensic sight.
Speaker 16: Specialists should have been called for so a proper examination
Speaker 16: was undertaken, which should have included pathologist, photographer, crime scene examiner,
Speaker 16: ballistics expert, chemist in relation to blood spatter and gunshot
Speaker 16: residue consideration to consult with and request the attendance of
Speaker 16: the major crime squad in accordance with the determination it
Speaker 16: was a specialist investigation. Further basic steps should have been
Speaker 16: to convey both Simmons and Price to the local police
Speaker 16: station so a more detailed account could be obtained by
Speaker 16: means of a formal interview. Both Simmons and Price should
Speaker 16: have been interviewed by detectives that night. Josh Brydon should
Speaker 16: have been located and interviewed on the night prior to
Speaker 16: any decision being made around.
Speaker 3: The cause of the deceased's death.
Speaker 16: Robert Simmons should have been interviewed on the night as
Speaker 16: at five twenty eight pm when he spoke with Sin
Speaker 16: John's ambulance, he was of the view his son had
Speaker 16: shot his partner and made a mistake. What is his
Speaker 16: belief for making such a statement. Nancy Kirk should have
Speaker 16: been interviewed. When she arrived at the property, she tells
Speaker 16: David Simmons you killed her, you bastard. You would want
Speaker 16: to know the basis of that statement and the history
Speaker 16: between Amy and David. Explore avenues in relation to domestic violence.
Speaker 16: The fact police have no record does not mean it
Speaker 16: was not occurring. Ascertain movements and contact with Amy Wensley
Speaker 16: during the day. Rachel Price should have been interviewed as
Speaker 16: she had been with the deceased prior to death, make
Speaker 16: a request for call charge records to ascertain who the
Speaker 16: deceased had been speaking to or texting. I would expect
Speaker 16: these steps to have been taken as a minimum at
Speaker 16: the commencement of this type of investigation. The detectives from Rockingham,
Speaker 16: and in particular Detective Sergeant Kirkman, as the most senior investigator,
Speaker 16: failed to follow the crime model and completely missed the
Speaker 16: most important phase investigation. From information contained in the inquest brief,
Speaker 16: it is evident detective arrive around seven pm. They are
Speaker 16: then given a verbal briefing, and at seven eighteen pm,
Speaker 16: Kirkman and Weederman enter the actual crime scene. Photographs are
Speaker 16: taken and a mud map is drawn by Kirkman. They
Speaker 16: then leave by eight pm, having deemed the death a suicide.
Speaker 16: That means an assessment has been made within forty two
Speaker 16: minutes of viewing the scene. The report written by Detective
Speaker 16: Weederman twenty seventh of June twenty fourteen states Detective Sergeant
Speaker 16: Kirkman read the statements out to us. The statements from
Speaker 16: Simmons and Price were consistent and corroborated the scene. We
Speaker 16: assessed these comments contrast with the statement made by Kirkman
Speaker 16: eighth of November twenty eighteen, where he states there were inconsistencies.
Speaker 16: Once a crime scene is dismantled and cleaned, you can
Speaker 16: never recreate it. To be exact, the determination by Rockingham
Speaker 16: detectives to deem the case non suspicious and to remove
Speaker 16: the protected crime scene without calling experts conducting some basic
Speaker 16: investigation was a major mistake and drastically undermined the further investigation.
Speaker 16: On twenty seventh of June twenty fourteen, the Major Crime
Speaker 16: Squad assumed responsibility to determine the circumstances of the death
Speaker 16: of Amy Wensley. There were obvious limitations forensically, as the
Speaker 16: crime seene had been cleaned and future interpretations were based
Speaker 16: on some assumptions. Simmons and Price were formally interviewed, children
Speaker 16: interviewed and statements obtained from relevant witnesses. In total, sixty
Speaker 16: six exhibits were lodged for holding or further examination. Detective
Speaker 16: Sergeant Evans provided his final report on the fourth of
Speaker 16: November twenty fourteen. His conclusion was no criminality has been
Speaker 16: identified in this matter. No evidence indicates third party involvement
Speaker 16: in the death of Amy and as such the matter
Speaker 16: to be treated as a suicide with compilation of a
Speaker 16: coronial file. The facts in the report of Evans are wrong,
Speaker 16: one being police were called at five fifty pm when
Speaker 16: in fact it was five twenty pm. Secondly, Amy spoke
Speaker 16: to her mother at four forty five pm, but it
Speaker 16: was confirmed to be five pm. The comment in the report,
Speaker 16: Forensic analysis was conducted on the shotgun and cartridges and
Speaker 16: nothing was identified that would indicate criminality in the death
Speaker 16: of Wenesley. In my opinion, this shows a closed mind
Speaker 16: to other possibilities. The absence of fingerprints or DNA does
Speaker 16: not equate to no criminality, It just means it did
Speaker 16: not assist the investigation. The final comments in Evans report
Speaker 16: are premature. They may be based on verbal reports, but
Speaker 16: the final written forensic reports were not completed to twenty
Speaker 16: fifteen and further testing was requested early twenty fifteen.
Speaker 3: The crime model sets out five key investigative.
Speaker 16: Strategies, one being to minimize tunnel vision and or premature closure.
Speaker 16: In my opinion, there was a failing of the Major
Speaker 16: Crime Squad and the report of Detective Sergeant Evans, fourth
Speaker 16: of November twenty fourteen supports my view of premature closure.
Speaker 16: The major crime squad investigation was impacted by decisions of
Speaker 16: Rockingham detectives because of the dismantling of the crime scene
Speaker 16: and the fact they were not formally interviewed on the night.
Speaker 7: Ron Dalls acknowledges domestic violence was looked into.
Speaker 16: But very limited was done on the initial night, other
Speaker 16: than to check on the police database.
Speaker 7: He refers to the statement by Amy's friend Shelley Stanley,
Speaker 7: who called crime Stoppers only days after Amy died, saying,
Speaker 7: you know, I thought that it.
Speaker 15: Was important that police knew that she was in an
Speaker 15: abusive relationship and that David had an explosive temper.
Speaker 4: The person said, I'll pass.
Speaker 15: It on to the detective and if they think that
Speaker 15: it warrants investigation, someone will contact you back. The next
Speaker 15: time I was actually contacted by police was for the
Speaker 15: cold case review, many many years later.
Speaker 16: She reported to police her concerns it was not followed up.
Speaker 16: All detectives can investigate domestic violence matters and pursue issues
Speaker 16: which may arise. Firstly, you need information of evidence to
Speaker 16: follow and it appears they have done that, but somehow
Speaker 16: the information by Shelley Stanley was not properly recorded or documented.
Speaker 16: Domestic violence can be an attributing factor to homicide or
Speaker 16: a suicide, and as a rule, the investigator presents that
Speaker 16: evidence in determining an outcome. To establish if someone took
Speaker 16: their own life or not, there are limited avenues to explore.
Speaker 16: Health records provide some level of detail. Friends and associates
Speaker 16: can provide evidence of research. Amy Wensley's medical records were
Speaker 16: obtained from Pinjarramedical Center and some witnesses gave their own opinion.
Speaker 16: All examinations have been conducted for this type of incident
Speaker 16: or offense. The non preservation of the original crime scene
Speaker 16: was an error. It's not unusual to conduct tests on
Speaker 16: a crime scene post the offense, as often by the
Speaker 16: time a crime is reported, the scene has been cleaned.
Speaker 16: Over All, the forensic investigation has been thorough. The review
Speaker 16: conducted by the Cold Case Unit of the Homicide Squad
Speaker 16: by Detective Sergeant Jo is of a high standard. During
Speaker 16: the review, they undertook strategies around Simmons and price to
Speaker 16: maximize evidence gathering. In my view, details of the strategies
Speaker 16: would involve public interest immunity. The outcome is not detailed
Speaker 16: in the report. Ron eddallsm APM, retired Detective Senior Sergeant,
Speaker 16: Victoria Police.
Speaker 3: Eighth of January twenty twenty.
Speaker 7: One, I reached out to Shelley, who told me that
Speaker 7: despite being a fair bit older than Amy, they became
Speaker 7: friends because her ex partner used to catch up with
Speaker 7: Simmons a fair bit due to their mutual love for hunting.
Speaker 7: She still remembers when she first learned of Amy's death.
Speaker 15: My partner at the time knocked on my door and
Speaker 15: there must have been the next day and said.
Speaker 4: Amy's dead.
Speaker 16: And I was like, what.
Speaker 15: What are you talking about, and couldn't really comprehend what
Speaker 15: he was saying to me.
Speaker 4: I was like, how do you know?
Speaker 15: And he said he was at work, he saw it
Speaker 15: on the shorts for the news or something, and he
Speaker 15: recognized the driveway up to the house, so he apparently
Speaker 15: drove down there.
Speaker 4: He got stopped on the driveway by police.
Speaker 15: Once I'd heard that supposedly it was suicide, I just
Speaker 15: couldn't believe that.
Speaker 4: That was possible.
Speaker 15: I knew that Amy was in the process of getting
Speaker 15: organized to leave Dave, and I warned her to be
Speaker 15: careful and that it was a dangerous time and to
Speaker 15: be safe.
Speaker 4: I didn't think that that would happen, but.
Speaker 15: I was worried because I had seen Dave's explosive temper.
Speaker 7: Despite initially believing Amy had met with thou Play, Shelley's
Speaker 7: ex partner changed his mind when he eventually caught up
Speaker 7: with Simmons.
Speaker 13: Dave told him.
Speaker 15: Things like, they tested my hands for gunshot residue and
Speaker 15: there was none, so that proves I didn't kill her.
Speaker 15: And from my understanding over everything that's come since then
Speaker 15: is I don't think the police did do any residue
Speaker 15: tests on the boys, and as.
Speaker 7: We know, if they had, gune residue would have been
Speaker 7: found on their clothes anyway, because they had been shooting
Speaker 7: guns all afternoon. I asked Shelley what her ex partner
Speaker 7: thought about her reaching up to the police.
Speaker 4: I didn't say first up because I knew that he would.
Speaker 9: Not be happy that I called.
Speaker 15: Police, So I actually said that the police had called me,
Speaker 15: and yeah, he went right off.
Speaker 4: He was not happy.
Speaker 7: Shelley recalls the incident when she saw Simmons lose his temper.
Speaker 15: One of the days that we visited their house in Serpentine,
Speaker 15: David had invited us over there for a barbecue, so
Speaker 15: he went over during the day, but we ended up
Speaker 15: in the dam.
Speaker 4: We had some drinks of fair few drinks, or many
Speaker 4: of us did. Amy didn't. She barely drank.
Speaker 15: The only time she usually drank alcohol was if Dave
Speaker 15: pushed her into it, and then she would maybe have
Speaker 15: one drink.
Speaker 4: Eventually, Nancy and Rick came and the kids were playing
Speaker 4: on the kayak and that.
Speaker 15: But at some stage the kids the girls were saying
Speaker 15: they were hungry, and Nancy was like, you know, we
Speaker 15: should go back and cook the barbecue, but Dave was
Speaker 15: pretty hell bent on keeping on drinking.
Speaker 13: We did end up down at the house and.
Speaker 15: Nancy was going to go inside and make the girls
Speaker 15: sandwiches or something, because it was pretty obvious by that
Speaker 15: stage that David wasn't going to do barbecue. And David
Speaker 15: straightway flared up at Nancy's and he was really rude
Speaker 15: to her.
Speaker 4: I mean, he was quite drunk as well, and then Rick.
Speaker 15: Stepped in and said, don't you talk to my wife
Speaker 15: like that, and it just got Dave went from zero
Speaker 15: to one hundred straight away, started pushing and shoving and
Speaker 15: trying to have a fight with Nancy's husbands, and Amy
Speaker 15: and Nancy both intervened. Amy was the one that sort
Speaker 15: of peeled them apart in the end and calmed Dave
Speaker 15: down and stuff. But yeah, he was ready to go
Speaker 15: full throttle and fight Rick. And it was really it
Speaker 15: was based on him being rude to Nancy, who was
Speaker 15: just trying to look out for the girls who were hungry.
Speaker 7: And what about any sort of violence towards Amy.
Speaker 15: I didn't see like specific physical violence towards her, but
Speaker 15: it's really hard to explain, but the way he spoke
Speaker 15: to her and was quite demeaning at times.
Speaker 13: And one time we were camping out at the farm
Speaker 13: and I can't remember what.
Speaker 4: It was about.
Speaker 15: He basically I think he was trying to pressure Amy
Speaker 15: into drinking, and she was like, no, no, I think
Speaker 15: one of us should be sober.
Speaker 13: You know, we're here with the girls.
Speaker 15: It's important somebody sober. I don't want to drink. And
Speaker 15: he was like, go on, you know, pressuring it, go on,
Speaker 15: you know, don't be.
Speaker 4: Don't be boring. You're always said boring, you know.
Speaker 15: He just carried on on on, pressuring her, and in
Speaker 15: the end she relented and she's like, oh fine, so
Speaker 15: she had one drink, but he just kept on sort
Speaker 15: of at her, and to the point where I felt
Speaker 15: the need to.
Speaker 4: Sort of say, you know, you really should appreciate.
Speaker 15: Amy issues looking out for you girls and doing the
Speaker 15: right thing, and you know, she's an amazing person. Don't
Speaker 15: you think you should sort of speak to her more nicely?
Speaker 15: And then he said, oh, so you won't return.
Speaker 13: Out, do you?
Speaker 4: Is that what you like? You know, straight away because
Speaker 4: I spoke.
Speaker 15: Highly of Aiming, Yeah, he's straightway started insinuating that there
Speaker 15: was something more to that, which was just ridiculous seeing
Speaker 15: footage of Dave and Gareth and Rachel sort of.
Speaker 4: This far down the track.
Speaker 13: Even back then, I felt like Aiming never.
Speaker 4: Really fitted in with that group.
Speaker 15: She was very education orientated for her girls, like she
Speaker 15: was very Yeah, she was very determined that her girls
Speaker 15: were going to get the best of her. She's spent
Speaker 15: a lot of time and effort educating them, trying to
Speaker 15: teach them to read, to tie shoelaces, to.
Speaker 13: You know, you name it.
Speaker 15: She just didn't fit in with that redneck, hill billy
Speaker 15: peak shooting, drunken drug taking.
Speaker 1: Sort of world, a world she was hoping to escape
Speaker 1: a year after his first statement, mister Riddles submits an addendum.
Speaker 3: Today, thirteenth of January twenty twenty one.
Speaker 16: I was provided with an unredacted copy of the internal
Speaker 16: review conducted by Detective Senior Sergeant Bryan Hunter, dated fourteenth
Speaker 16: of May twenty twenty. I've been asked by counsel assisting
Speaker 16: the family to make comment on the investigator analysis, in
Speaker 16: particular points one to fifteen. I have read the documents
Speaker 16: and agree with all points one to fifteen. They are
Speaker 16: all very sound and valid points. The most significant two
Speaker 16: points at the bottom of page thirty four of the
Speaker 16: document are the death occurred following a violent domestic altercation
Speaker 16: between Simmons and the deceased. The deceased died as a
Speaker 16: result of a gunshot to the head in her and Simmons' bedroom.
Speaker 16: The two circumstances overwhelmingly demanded the investigation bethorough and to
Speaker 16: the highest standard. Detective Senior Sergeant Hunter's report is a
Speaker 16: very candid assessment.
Speaker 1: He's referring to the WA Police Internal Affairs Unit report,
Speaker 1: of which we also have a copy. Despite what uniformed
Speaker 1: officers advised him when he arrived on scene, it was
Speaker 1: noted that Kirkman stated in his interview that he was
Speaker 1: treating the matter as a sudden death under the Coroner's Act,
Speaker 1: not a criminal investigation.
Speaker 16: Treat these matters as sudden death until such time as
Speaker 16: it looked suspicious.
Speaker 3: When I turned up, I didn't know either way.
Speaker 1: Here is an excerpt of its findings in relation to
Speaker 1: the conduct of detectives Kirkman and Wiederman on the knight
Speaker 1: Amy died.
Speaker 2: Apart from their observations at the scene, they failed to
Speaker 2: seek any other independent corroboration of Simmons and Price's statements.
Speaker 2: They classified Simmons and Price as witnesses and requested statements
Speaker 2: be obtained from them by junior inexperienced staff. This was
Speaker 2: prior to making any assessment of criminality. They failed to
Speaker 2: speak to Simmons or Price to clarify inconsistencies or obtain
Speaker 2: further details from them. They failed to attempt to establish
Speaker 2: a timeline of events to confirm or rebut the account
Speaker 2: of Simmons or Price, i e. What time the deceased
Speaker 2: had arrived home, who she was with that day, time
Speaker 2: of death, etc. They failed to speak or cause any
Speaker 2: inquiries with Joshua Brydon, who was apparently also present during
Speaker 2: the physical altercation with the deceased. They failed to speak
Speaker 2: to the deceased mother, who Kirkman knew had received a
Speaker 2: phone call from the deceased shortly prior to her death.
Speaker 2: They failed to seek further information from family or friends
Speaker 2: of suicidal ideation or previous domestic violence incidents. Apart from
Speaker 2: checking the deceased hands and maybe arms, did not know
Speaker 2: of any other injuries to her, failed to make any
Speaker 2: inquiries concerning the missing door handle inside the bedroom or
Speaker 2: even recognized it may have been evidence of a struggle.
Speaker 2: Failed to make inquiries of the service station as to
Speaker 2: Simmons and Price's actions there. Kirkman incorrectly determined the trajectory
Speaker 2: of the projectiles was low to high, and theorized in
Speaker 2: his interview the deceased had rested the butt of the
Speaker 2: firearm on the ground before pulling the trigger. BPA expert
Speaker 2: analysis states the firearm was likely perpendicular when fired. Failure
Speaker 2: to interview Robert Simmons about him entering the scene and
Speaker 2: handling the firearms prior to police attendants, failure to make
Speaker 2: detailed notes of their actions and decisions. They failed to
Speaker 2: consider the following forensic procedures were necessary, Seizure of Simmons
Speaker 2: and Price's clothing, view and photograph Simmons as a result
Speaker 2: of a violent altercation, Seizure of the deceased vehicle for
Speaker 2: evidentary material blood patterns, damage, glass fragments, fingernail scrapings of
Speaker 2: Simmons and Price, fingernail scrapings of the deceased. Wiederman and
Speaker 2: ultimately Kirkman based their assessment of this incident on the
Speaker 2: assumption Simmons and Price were telling the truth. However, in
Speaker 2: these circumstances, that assumption is an unsafe approach and they
Speaker 2: should have not made the decision based on their limited
Speaker 2: level of investigation. Further investigation was necessary and Major Crime
Speaker 2: Squad should have been informed of the matter to make
Speaker 2: their determination. It has been found that Kirkman and Wiederman
Speaker 2: neglected their duty by not adequately investigating this matter. In
Speaker 2: the first instance, they failed to identify or attend to
Speaker 2: matters of inquiry against the WA Police Force Investigation doctrine.
Speaker 2: No criminal element to this matter was identified. The recommendation
Speaker 2: was to refer the matters to the Integrity Review Panel
Speaker 2: for consideration of issuance of an assistant Commissioner's warning notice.
Speaker 2: The subject officers were notified of the IAU investigation outcomes
Speaker 2: through an early assessment notice on fifteen April twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: Both Wiederman and Kirkman were issued with an ACWN Brian
Speaker 2: Hunter Detective Senior Sergeant, Internal Affairs Unit.
Speaker 1: This was dated fourteen May twenty twenty, So despite this
Speaker 1: complete dereliction of duty, Weederman and Kirkman were both let
Speaker 1: off with warnings. Now it's worth noting that only Weederman
Speaker 1: remains on the WA Police Force payroll. Kirkman left some
Speaker 1: time after the inquest findings came out. Meanwhile, the coroner
Speaker 1: had an entire section in her findings about mister Iddle's
Speaker 1: report and cross examination, which included the following observations of note.
Speaker 14: In the context of the thousand or so suspicious deaths,
Speaker 14: mister Iddles has investigated only a small number involved women
Speaker 14: and firearms, and of those only a couple involved a
Speaker 14: female committing suicide. In those cases, the firearm used was
Speaker 14: a handgun, and he had never been involved in a
Speaker 14: case where a female person committed suicide with a shotgun.
Speaker 14: In terms of firearm deaths generally, mister Iddle's commented that
Speaker 14: the position in which Amy was found is not the
Speaker 14: position you would normally find someone who used a firearm
Speaker 14: to harm themselves. In his experience, most of these cases
Speaker 14: either have the person seated in a chair or lying
Speaker 14: on a bed. Therefore, in mister Eddele's opinion, Amy's case
Speaker 14: is very unusual and warranted close investigation. Mister Eddles considered
Speaker 14: the Major Crime Division investigation, which commenced the day after
Speaker 14: Amy's death, Operation JUNDI, was investigated to a reasonable standard,
Speaker 14: but was concluded prematurely, given the final comments of the
Speaker 14: investigating officer were made before final written forensic reports were
Speaker 14: available in relation to such items as Gareth and David's clothing.
Speaker 14: Mister Eddles described the investigators as appearing to have tunnel vision,
Speaker 14: in the sense that they appeared willing to come to
Speaker 14: a conclusion before they had all the available evidence. He
Speaker 14: also noted the investigation was impacted by the decisions of
Speaker 14: the Rockingham detective's premature closure of the case on the
Speaker 14: night Amy died. Although mister Idels did not have full
Speaker 14: access to the investigative materials, he based his opinion upon
Speaker 14: the information he did have an opportunity to review. He
Speaker 14: noted the cold case review left three options open, namely suicide,
Speaker 14: accident or homicide. Mister iddles expressed the opinion that he
Speaker 14: did not think the evidence suggested the death occurred by accident,
Speaker 14: but considered the other two options were open on the evidence.
Speaker 14: In particular, mister Iddle's indicated his opinion that you still
Speaker 14: can't rule out homicide on the evidence that has been identified.
Speaker 14: Mister Iddle's agreed one evidence that could point to homicide
Speaker 14: was the biomechanical evidence in relation to the position of
Speaker 14: her hand, but he also pointed to the position of
Speaker 14: where it happened, noting that women do not normally use
Speaker 14: a shotgun to commit suicide, and if it did happen
Speaker 14: as a suicide, based on his own experience, he would
Speaker 14: have expected it to have occurred on the bed. If
Speaker 14: the death occurred by suicide in the location where Amy
Speaker 14: was found, and the evidence of Gareth was accepted that
Speaker 14: the shotgun was first found on the legs, the scenario
Speaker 14: does not account for the recoil of the shotgun. Therefore,
Speaker 14: if it is the case that the bar of the
Speaker 14: gun was found between Amy's legs, mister Iddle's commented, then
Speaker 14: we've got an issue there that no one can explain,
Speaker 14: and the lack of blood spatter and gunshot residue on
Speaker 14: Amy's right hand on the balance of probabilities, suggested the
Speaker 14: hand was more likely to have been underneath Amy's thigh
Speaker 14: at the time of the shooting.
Speaker 1: Now, bearing in mind mister Iddle's is not privy to
Speaker 1: all available evidence, the coroner still chose to seize on
Speaker 1: his comment that you need more than suspicion, and rather
Speaker 1: than recommend any action to build on this, she concludes
Speaker 1: there's nothing more to be done due to the failure
Speaker 1: by detectives to investigate thoroughly at the start.
Speaker 14: I note the history of this matter, including a previous
Speaker 14: referral by a coroner to the Director of Public Prosecutions
Speaker 14: under Section twenty seven, Part five of the Coroner's Act,
Speaker 14: which included the first report of Professor Ackland. Under that section,
Speaker 14: I may also make a referral to the Director of
Speaker 14: Public Prosecutions if I believe in diet of offense has
Speaker 14: been committed in connection with Amy's death. Although the required
Speaker 14: standard of proof in an inquest is lower than the
Speaker 14: criminal standard of proof, in making my findings, I have
Speaker 14: applied the Briginshaw principle, which requires a consideration of the
Speaker 14: nature of the allegations when considering what standard of proof
Speaker 14: is necessary to support a judicial finding. In this case,
Speaker 14: the allegations of involvement in concealment of a homicide are
Speaker 14: patently very serious and could have grave consequences for individuals,
Speaker 14: so I consider I require particularly strong or cogent evidence
Speaker 14: to prove the allegations to my satisfaction. Given I have
Speaker 14: made an open finding in relation to the manner of death,
Speaker 14: in my view, there is insufficient evidence for me to
Speaker 14: be satisfied that an indubtable offense has been committed in
Speaker 14: connection with Amy's death. Therefore, I do not propose to
Speaker 14: refer this case to the Director of Public Prosecutions for
Speaker 14: further consideration.
Speaker 1: But it's not over yet, not by a long way.
Speaker 1: WA Police has now announced it's dedicating a new team
Speaker 1: to investigate Amy's case. It's been four years since the
Speaker 1: cold case investigation ended, but they've acknowledged a number of
Speaker 1: people have contacted them with new information as a result
Speaker 1: of our podcast.
Speaker 17: The increased media attention has led to numerous calls to
Speaker 17: crime stoppers. Part of the Special Crime Squad's role is
Speaker 17: to follow up and determine if any new information has
Speaker 17: been received that might open avenues for further investigation. To
Speaker 17: achieve this objective, a team has been formulated to assess
Speaker 17: new information received and investigate any new leads that may
Speaker 17: be present. We don't want to give loved ones any
Speaker 17: false hope. That we can reassure them that the WA
Speaker 17: Police will follow up thoroughly and never stop looking. We
Speaker 17: are always grateful to our media partners for highlighting unsolved
Speaker 17: cases and to the friends and family who worked with
Speaker 17: us to seek justice.
Speaker 7: Next episode, discrimination, victim blaming, and trying to move the
Speaker 7: dial on a case where it's easier for the people
Speaker 7: in power to just do nothing.
Speaker 2: There's plenty of loose hands, there's plenty of emerging possible
Speaker 2: lines of inquiry, there's plenty of strategies that they can employ.
Speaker 15: The question is why not?
Speaker 1: And the startling new claims sent to WA Police to
Speaker 1: follow up and yeah, she was dead.
Speaker 13: We've been pigging and we'd like founder And then.
Speaker 15: We had to burn the clothes because the costs were
Speaker 15: chasing us and we didn't want them to think that
Speaker 15: we had anything to do with it.
Speaker 13: We both know the now.
Speaker 4: You me.
Speaker 1: If you knew Amy and have information, any information about
Speaker 1: her death, we'd love to hear from you. Just email
Speaker 1: us at The Truth about Amy at seven dot com
Speaker 1: dot au. That's s E V E N The Truth
Speaker 1: about Amy at seven dot com dot Au, or visit
Speaker 1: our website sevenews dot com dot Au forward slash the
Speaker 1: Truth about Amy. You can also send us an anonymous
Speaker 1: tip at www dot the Truth about Amy dot com.
Speaker 1: If you're on Facebook or Instagram, you can follow us
Speaker 1: to see photos and updates relevant to the case, but
Speaker 1: for legal reasons, unfortunately, you won't be able to make
Speaker 1: any comments. And remember, if you like what you're hearing,
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe. Please rate and review our series
Speaker 1: because it really helps new listeners to find us. Presenter
Speaker 1: and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and investigative journalist Liam Bartlett,
Speaker 1: Sound design Mark Wright, Assistant producer Cassie Woodward, Graphics Jason Blanford,
Speaker 1: and special thanks to Tim Clark and Brian Seymour. This
Speaker 1: is a seven News production.