WEBVTT - 10: The Impossible 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:06.480 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:11.840 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:19.040 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:29.440 lifeline dot org dot au. A twenty four year old 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:35.960 devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:45.280 bags packed car running her daughters strapped into the backseat. 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.120 Mom told me that she needed to go back inside 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:49.920 to grab something. 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:50.720 Panic. 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:53.320 I Amy is dead, Sir aim his dead? 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:54.640 Eight confusion World. 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.120 About five minutes they sit not to suicide. 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:57.920 One hundred percent. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:00:59.320 This is emergency. 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:05.400 What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy? 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.840 The Truth about Amy? 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:16.959 Episode ten. 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:22.560 I'm Liam Bartlett. 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:24.920 And I'm Alison Sandy. 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:26.840 I'm ready. 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:27.920 You're really blush. 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:33.880 Cameras said, excellent, everyone has eyes and ears. Safety's off, okay, 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.520 and test fire. I'm going to try and pull the 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:38.320 trigger with my finger. 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:43.399 I think it's very interesting right there. That's very very interesting. 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:43.640 Day. 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.760 Look at the force he's trying to put into pulling 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:50.600 that trigger, and he hasn't been able to pull the trigger. 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.600 Okay, let's do it again out of the shooting range. 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:01.080 At the Campbelltown, Liverpool District Pistol Club in Western Sydney. 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:07.360 International Crime Reconstruction scene expert Scott Rhoda is testing the 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:12.440 shotgun which was used to kill Amy, not the actual gun, 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:15.560 which was a four to ten boyto twelve gauge double 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:20.600 barrel shotgun owned by her partner David Simmons, but an 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.840 exact match to be used as part of the crime 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:29.639 scene reconstruction. He's joined by Daniel Martin of Arms and FX, 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:35.160 who specializes in firearms, theatrical armory, pyrotechnics and props for 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:36.000 film and TV. 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.519 Twenty one round in the chamber is going to be clear, 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:50.520 and I'll confirm that weapons clear, weapons safe on this one. 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:54.600 When you pull the trigger, maybe just try to support 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:56.799 the gun just a little bit so some of you 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.800 can see if there's any kick of the gun coming 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.079 up off of that front pad. So maybe just try 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:04.720 to stabilize it a little bit to see if it 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.160 comes up to end at all sail. Yeah, just stabilize 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:11.320 it a little bit so that we can really feel. 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:17.040 How much pressure you're putting on that trigger to make 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:17.399 it pull. 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:20.679 Obviously, we can do manufacture, you know, settings to see 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:24.400 what the whole trigger hounds are. 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:25.400 You know, on it. 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:28.359 But I think if you stabilize it just a little bit, 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:30.720 that might show us that the. 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:38.160 Barrel oka reacting safety is off. Weapons loaded and testing. 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:41.360 Hmm. 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:48.600 Now that had a substantial recoil and you just stabilize 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:49.320 it just a little bit. 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.640 That just a little bit. It's also important for ROTA 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.800 to gauge how powerful the weapon is, the impact it 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.800 has a close range, and of course the recoil, which 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.280 is the pushback of the gun when it's fine. 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:04.680 Okay, So that. 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.480 Actually surprises me a little bit that we had that 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:09.920 much recoil. Let's go ahead and clear it, load it 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.800 up again, maybe this time you know, obviously rings to 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.200 one by one, but I think it's worthwhile to do 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.839 that a couple more times, uh, to see how. 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:21.720 We can help how that gun. 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:27.760 If it's clear, that's a lot more powerful than I anticipated. 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:27.320 It to be. 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:29.320 Yeah, and much more concussive. 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:33.680 Yeah, yeah, no, there's definitely definitely without ear protection and 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:38.560 with close proximity to that weapon being discharged in that 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.680 small space, would you concur that there would be some 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:42.800 concussive effects? 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:43.839 Absolutely? 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.400 Yeah, Yeah, you're gonna gonna have a concussive effects. That's 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.120 a pressure wave coming at the end of the barrel. 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.720 Yeah, and in that confined space you saw this indoors, Yeah, 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.560 indoors in the studio, in the bedroom, and in that 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:01.240 little concave, you know, in that little doorway, especially with 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:05.000 three sides, but nowhere for that sound to go. 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.200 I think anybody in that room would be affected. 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.120 Substantially without hearing protection. 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:11.440 Yeah. 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.880 Yeah, depending on how far that barrel was pressed against 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.680 the skull, that might muffle the sound a little bit. Yeah, 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:21.160 some of the sound way went because some of the 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.160 gases might enter into the skull, and that's gonna cause 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:25.800 them that slight muffling effect. 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:27.680 Yeah. 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:29.480 But yeah, in a smaller room, it's gonna be it's 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:31.800 gonna be even louder than we was experiencing right here, right. 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.400 Yeah, Yeah, that was very beneficial. 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:36.359 I said, let's do that a couple more times and 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:40.479 then and then we'll go to the we've got the 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.000 audio now, and we've got a couple more kicks. 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.360 We've got a five inch kick approximately. I'd say, let's 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:46.839 try to get it. 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.800 But maybe through a variation of your trigger pull and 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:51.400 you know, see what other kind of effects you can 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:52.480 get on handling the gun. 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:54.440 I think I'm learning a lot by just watching you 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:55.800 do this. I think this is really helpful. 0:05:56.279 --> 0:06:02.919 Okay, whippons loaded. Everyone ready, Ye, Pifey's off. Hey, testing, 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:11.080 So we look at the backside of the target. We 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:13.880 can see the projectile hole right there. 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:17.839 We got the projectile hole right here about a centimeter 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:19.239 as you mentioned. 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:22.520 And then and that's the backside of the target. And 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:23.400 on the front side of the. 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:27.080 Target, we've got this blast radius from the gas coming 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.000 out of the gun and you can see the devastating 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:31.080 nature of that. 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.080 In this demonstration here, So. 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:40.800 Once again confirming immediate incapacitation upon the bullet entering the 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:45.400 head and devastating injuries, you know. 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:47.080 So yeah, I think you know. 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.279 The idea that this gun is a low caliber or 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:52.880 not a twelve gage shotgun, I don't think there's any 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.120 bearing on the devastation that this gun can do. 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.680 Is a powerful shotgun. 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.200 Yes, it's designed for killing small things, but on a 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.120 human body, it's still going to be fatal. 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:09.039 Yeah, yeah, I think it's arranges. Yeah, there's powerful. 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:17.080 We first made contact with Scott Rhoda about two years 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.600 ago now to see if this was a case that 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:25.720 he could lend his expertise. His resume is extensive, having 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:30.160 consulted in more than fifteen hundred cases since two thousand 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:35.760 and one. They include reconstructions of the manner of death 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:43.400 of George Floyd, Michael Biker, Sherlock, and most famously Rever Stemcamp, 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:49.520 whose boyfriend South African former Olympic sprinter Oscar Pistorius was 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:53.360 finally convicted of her murder in twenty sixteen. 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.120 Guilty of murder, with the accused having had criminal intentions 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:57.480 for thurs. 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.720 Here, Rooda is trying to determine where the gun should 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:10.640 have landed based on Amy's position as presented at the inquest. 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:17.840 Despite tests already having been undertaken by biomechanical experts, Roda 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.800 is doing an independent assessment, which means carrying out his 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.680 own testing and going through the various scenarios of what 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:30.000 was possible given the forensic evidence of the room and 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.520 the position of Amy's body when she was discovered. 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.360 Well, let's say hypothetically we have a right hand pull 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:41.240 with a right hand hold and becoming immediately incapacitated. That 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.480 gun is going to fly in the right direction so 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:46.439 soon as the trigger's pulled that God's going to be 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.480 flying after the rate, substantially out of her hand. 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.760 If you're holding onto that gun one hand with a 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.599 weak hold, just depressing the trigger, the gun's going to 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:56.319 fly out of your hand. 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:58.199 Yeah, yeah, substantially. 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:03.120 There's no scenario where that gun could defy the forces 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:07.520 of nature and go toward the body with the butt 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:08.440 being between the legs. 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.520 Yeah. This is not a one hand pull gun. This 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:13.360 is guns designed for a two hand. 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:19.360 Pull, steady halled, two handed and absorbing some of that 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.800 recoal in both your arms and against your shoulder. 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:26.439 If Amy was to have pulled this trigger in some 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:30.559 kind of a scenario that it might fit the physical evidence, 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:32.440 clearly the gun would have. 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.040 Flown out of her hand and off to the right 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:35.800 of her body. 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.400 There's no way the gun would be in the documented 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:42.599 position that we had from the friend, or from the 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.800 father or from law enforcement. So I think this clearly 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:51.679 confirms for me this was not unassisted shot. This was 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.000 not unassisted. This was done by another individual. 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.480 Scott Rhoda heads up the US based company Evidence Room, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:04.199 comprising a team of forensic and computer animation experts who 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:08.960 provide insight based on the evidence presented at the crime scene, and. 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:11.360 Then the butt of the gun would be pushed out 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.200 this way, opposite, in opposite. 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:17.480 For this case, Rhoda brought with him Pat Mooney, who 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:21.920 specializes in the physical and virtual recreation of the crime 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:22.720 scene itself. 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.720 With the butt by your feet, muzzle towards her head. 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:29.400 We're at a warehouse in Merrickville where they've developed a 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:34.040 model to the exact scale of the bedroom Amy's body 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:34.600 was found. 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.760 So let's assume this was self inflicted for a moment. 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:41.760 Their first test aims to find out whether Amy could 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.440 have used her left hand to shoot herself, and. 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.160 The gun was in this documented position with the butt 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.040 of the gun along the left ankle and the gun 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.920 chat wound out of the right the right hands under 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:54.120 the right bidock. 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:57.199 One the blood would be an entirely. 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.360 Different tape of a position. So I think we can 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:04.439 conclude say that the position the gun was documented to 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.960 be in between her legs more towards her left ankle, 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:13.559 is not at all consistent with any evidence we see here, 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.679 and I think we can rule that out completely completely 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:18.760 as being part of the scenario. 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:20.480 So now I think we have to factor in. 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:23.000 The evidence was. 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:30.520 Polluted by a minimum of two people prior to officers 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.959 being able to document the condition. So the reliability of 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.120 this being an actual position related to some kind of 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:42.400 a self inflicted gunshot wound, I think doesn't pass any 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:47.160 test whatsoever. So the second scenario would be, would Amy, 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.800 without being able to use her right arm, be able 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.880 to stabilize the gun to create the wound from a 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:58.199 ninety degree right to left in the right temple and 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:04.360 produce blood on the opposite wall by either resting it 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:08.000 on the bed, which I think that's what you're showing 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:12.440 here now, right, to use the bed kind of as 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.400 a as a stabilizer, But you can't use that much 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:21.280 of the bed as a stabilizer because the angle it's 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:21.840 got to kind. 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:23.439 Of rest on the edge, right, Yeah, it's such a 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:24.079 tight area. 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.360 And say, for example, let's say she pulls the trigger there, 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.120 the gun's going to fall directly. 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:35.720 Like horizontal with the body or parallel. 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.800 Or almost in a similar position as as the other scenario, right, 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.959 which doesn't fit. Right, which doesn't fit at all. And 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.240 then the other scenario is having the gun on the floor, 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:48.800 using the floor as the. 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:55.360 Stabilizer for the weapon, and then the head being the 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.319 other stabilizer with the left hand kind of holding it 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:03.400 into place here, but still you need to use the 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:05.040 right hand to pull the trigger. 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.000 And that doesn't fit our trajectory angle well. 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.400 And you can't get the right hand underneath the right 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.840 buttock or the right thigh. You can't get it underneath 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:19.480 the body. Because I think we've been clear and the 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:23.240 record is clear, and it's on the record that this 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:27.840 would be an immediately incapacitating shot with no purposeful movement 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.360 after the trigger is fired. So I think having the 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:35.559 gun being propped on the ground as a stabilizer is 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:40.880 also now ruled out because you cannot pull the trigger 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:47.120 and get the hand underneath the right buttock prior to. 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:49.800 The shot. 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.920 The shot, it's an ending shot, it's over, and once 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.840 the trigger is pulled, it's over. She's now immediately incapacitated, 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.120 and there's really not going to be any way to 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:03.200 get that right hand underneath or bomb. 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.880 Post shot, not at all. 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.200 And there's no way to do the angle does not match. 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.880 Then there's the question of how drops of blood were 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.560 found inside the firearm, which they examine. 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:23.800 But do you see blood seeping into the crack of 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:24.120 the gun. 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.520 It looks like a pretty tight fit. It's almost seamless. 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:27.840 Yeah. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.320 The only seam I see is on the side right 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:35.120 in here, tiny little corner there and little corner there, 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.760 But the seam right here is flawless. So the chances 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.480 of blood getting in here without. 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:47.040 The gun being cracked, without the gun open, yeah, without the. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:52.400 Gun being open, there's really no way to get blood 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.560 into this area. The only way I think blood could 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:59.240 get into into this area here is if the gun 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.240 is already covered in blood and then a witness or 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:07.800 an accomplice or someone anyone doesn't matter who came in 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.480 unloaded the gun and then the blood from the execure 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:13.880 then seeped in that way. 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.640 Yeah, that's a possibility. But for the blood to. 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:22.960 Get in the gun without deliberately opening the without the 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.920 opening gun to take the ammunition out, I don't think 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:26.960 that's going to be possible. 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.040 But we can do that test, right, Yeah. 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:33.600 They also discuss the circumstances of Amy's death, such as 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:38.520 the language Simmons used in his phone call to triple zero. 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:43.760 So we have a triple zero call by Simmons Ambulance. 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:47.880 What's the address of the emergency from the operator twenty 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:52.920 seven eighty three Southwestern Highway, Serpentine. Okay, tell me exactly 0:15:52.960 --> 0:16:00.760 what happened. Somebody shot himself in the head. That's what 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:06.240 the first quote is, Okay, from the Triple zero call 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:13.160 by mister Simmons, who is the romantic partner of the deceased. 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.120 So right out of the gate, when the operator of 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.200 Triple zero, and this is important to nail this down. 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:22.760 I think, is somebody shot himself in the head. 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:24.240 Somebody shot himself in the head. 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.560 I mean, it could be some local colloquialisms there himself 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:29.120 herself themself whatever. 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:32.200 That doesn't bother me. But the fact that it says 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:34.600 somebody shot himself in. 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.160 The head, yeah, I'm very vague. 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:36.480 Right. 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.560 If I walked into say my wife who has apparently 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:47.000 been shot, and I'm calling Triple zero, I'm not saying somebody, Yeah, 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:48.120 you would say my wife. 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:48.760 Amy. 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.160 So the fact that mister Simmons has somebody shot himself 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.480 in the head, Triple zero operator, okay, are you there 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:57.560 with the person at the moment. 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:00.920 No, I'm not draw down service. 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.080 I had to drive down to the service station because 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:08.960 my phone is broken. I have two kids, and my 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:14.680 wife has shot herself. There's a lot there no, I'm not. 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.440 I had to drive down to the service station because 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:22.320 my phone is broken. I have two kids, I'm assuming 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.520 meaning with me, and my wife has shot herself operator. 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:31.480 Okay, how old is she? How old is she? Twenty three? 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.120 I just she's dead. 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.639 The language being used to describe now, mind you, of 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.520 course you have to factor in I think post traumatic stress, right, 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.400 if you reaction to the situation, right, maybe some people 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.640 have a colder reaction or you know, so just so forth, 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:50.480 So I guess we can't go too off the deep 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.160 end with the analysis just yet. 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:54.600 But there's more. How old is she? How old is she? 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:55.560 Twenty three? 0:17:55.760 --> 0:18:00.800 I just she's dead, right, Okay? All right, so she's 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:04.480 not conscious or breathing. Okay, but he's not there anymore. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:10.639 He's already gone because I'm assuming to say that he 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.920 has a broken phone that he can so as important 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.560 to mister Simmons in this triple zero call as the 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.120 fact that Amy is possibly. 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.960 Dead or is dead, is that also his phone is broken? 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.560 I think the same level of detail has been given 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:31.159 about both subjects so far in this very critical triple 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:35.680 zero call. Okay, so all right, so she's not conscious 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.960 for breathing, yes, I've got kids in the car. I'm 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.639 going to have to take them to their alright, and 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:48.240 I have a mate standing on the highway. Okay, can 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:53.120 you just please come and take her or do something. 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:54.960 Something. 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.040 I'm kind of at a loss for words. 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:01.919 Could just come take her and do something? 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:03.399 Okay? 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:07.200 So, yes, we're going to get that organized. 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:09.560 So that was R. 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:14.159 Jay Simmons, R and B. Simmons, R and B. Simmons. 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:19.359 Okay, what is your name, sir, David Simmons. Why did 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.600 she fucking do that? That's what David Simmons says. Okay, 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.120 I'm going to get that organized for you straight away. 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.560 Mister Simmons says, all right, thank you very much. All right, 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:35.200 see you all all right by all right, end of 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:36.480 the Triple zero call. 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:48.800 In her findings, the Kroner indicates she believed David simmons testimony. 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.560 But before we proceed with what she said, we just 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:56.840 want to apologize in advance for some of the wording 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:01.760 used here and elsewhere in this podcast. When discussing suicide. 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:07.320 We're aware that it should never be classified as committing suicide, 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:13.080 but taking one's own life or dying by suicide. However, 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:18.280 for accuracy we are quoting from transcripts provided to us. 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:23.119 David Simmons denied having any involvement in Amy's death and 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.960 maintained his position that Amy committed suicide. In my view, 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.240 there were aspects of David's evidence that minimized the difficulties 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.680 of his relationship with Amy and his controlling and aggressive 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:36.920 behavior towards her, but there was nothing in his demeanor 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.640 to suggest he was lying about how Amy died. Further, 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.080 I give some weight to the limited opportunity the two 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:45.840 men had to concoct a story, given the short time 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.040 frame between when Amy spoke to Nancy and their arrival 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:53.560 at the Serpentine roadhouse. Weighing against the evidence of Amy's 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:56.480 family is the evidence that Amy had been diagnosed with 0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:00.680 anxiety and depression, which has a known association the increased 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:04.440 risk of suicide, and was clearly in a tumultuous relationship 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.600 that had made her deeply unhappy at times. She was 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:10.679 separated from David a number of times, but they always 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.840 got back together, which may well have created some sense 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:16.680 of futility in her mind as to her prospects of 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.560 ever escaping the relationship. Some of her messages to friends 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.440 and even to David indicate that she felt caught in 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:26.399 a vicious cycle where she loved him and wanted to 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:29.440 keep her family unit together, but felt like David would 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:33.680 never change. I accept that Amy loved her daughters unconditionally, 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.160 but many people who love their family sadly do commit 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:41.600 suicide in moments of despair without thinking through the tragic consequences. 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:47.840 So just noting here that contrary to the analysis of 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:53.960 evidence by experts, the coroner still considers suicide an option 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:59.920 in Amy's manner of death. I catch up with Skill 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:04.520 to discuss what the evidence tells him happened to Ami 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.280 and the why her caise has been handled todight. 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:11.320 There's so many things that trouble me about this. 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.200 The number one thing is the position in which she's 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:19.440 located is not in a position you would expect. 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:23.160 Somebody who is taking their own life. 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:23.479 Right. 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:29.960 She's in a position that is not comfortable. It's not 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:31.800 a position that you would naturally be in. 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.080 I would think that if there was a deliberate self 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.240 inflicted gunshot wound, maybe you'd be on the bed, you'd 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.720 be sitting in a place. Because, especially when it comes 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:49.560 to women and suicide, they tend statistically to not do 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:53.879 things that are messy or bloody, right because they know 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:57.959 they're going to be found by people that love them. 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:01.520 And it's just to me, does not. 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:06.280 Strike at all as a suicide scene when we look 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:11.680 at the corners details of the report, which demonstrates that 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:16.920 there's a pneumothorax on her left chest. So deep bruce, Yeah, 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:19.680 deep bruise on a left chest. And now we can't 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:25.600 time how soon before the shot that that bruce happened, 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.920 but that bruce is there, and it's incredibly suspicious and 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.080 to me indicates that there was violence. And even if 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:36.080 you look at the photograph, the selfie that Amy took 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:40.800 sitting on the bed right there into that mirror, to me, 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:46.080 that was a protest photograph like don't mess with me. 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:48.480 I've got the gun, I'm in control, I'm. 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:51.399 In control of my life, this is my life. That 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:55.760 was a protest picture. That was not a picture foreshadowing 0:23:56.080 --> 0:24:00.880 a suicide. That was a picture of strength and self empowerment, 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:03.800 like I've got this, don't mess with me. 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:05.480 That's what that picture says to me. 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:09.040 And yet less than an hour lighter, that's where she is. 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:13.520