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Speaker 1: We will due to catch up with the Speaker Robin Lamley,

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Speaker 1: just having some issues getting in contact with her. I

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Speaker 1: can only assume that something's come up there in Parliament

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Speaker 1: on this day.

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Speaker 2: When legislation is going to be introduced.

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Speaker 1: Well, a lot of legislation, in fact, a lot of

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Speaker 1: it aimed at reducing crime. And we know that one

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Speaker 1: thing that does seem certain is that as some of

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Speaker 1: these law changes in some areas come into play, we

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Speaker 1: could see an increase in prisoner numbers. Now earlier in

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Speaker 1: the week, I read an extensive email from a corrections

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Speaker 1: officer about some really serious issues of safety, staffing levels

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Speaker 1: and security. The worker was prompted to go public as

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Speaker 1: the result of a really bad incident in the last

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Speaker 1: four weeks.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: That incident saw three prisoners, this person says, involved in

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Speaker 1: an unprovoked assault on an officer. One prisoner coward punched

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Speaker 1: the officer to the ground, which rendered him semi unconscious.

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Speaker 1: Another prisoner saw an opportunity to run up soccer kick

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Speaker 1: him in the head, once again unprovoked an opportunistic The

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Speaker 1: officer was knocked out cold for around forty to fifty seconds.

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Speaker 1: Prisoners well, a prisoner who kicked the officer in the head,

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Speaker 1: then around around, kicking and hitting as many officers as

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Speaker 1: he could during that incident. That is what we have

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Speaker 1: been told by a correctional officer. Now joining me on

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Speaker 1: the line to speak a little bit more about some

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Speaker 1: of the claims that have been made and some of

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Speaker 1: the issues around staffing and overcrowding at the prison is

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Speaker 1: the head of the United Workers Union, Erina Early. Good

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Speaker 1: morning to you, Erina.

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Speaker 3: Morning, Katie, hell are you you're really good?

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time this morning, and

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Speaker 1: thanks for joining me a couple of minutes early. Now,

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Speaker 1: Erina the whistleblower has provided some pretty horrific detail of

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Speaker 1: an assault which occurred in the last month. As I

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Speaker 1: touched on there where a correctional officer.

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Speaker 2: Was knocked out. Are you aware of that incident?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I am aware of that one, Katie.

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Speaker 1: Eron. Just how bad was that incident where where this

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Speaker 1: correctional officer was knocked out and kicked in the head.

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Speaker 3: It was pretty bad. More of the view that any

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Speaker 3: asault on correctional officers are serious. It is a sad

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Speaker 3: situation that it is happening a bit more regularly than

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Speaker 3: it was before. Unfortunately, not all of them can be

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Speaker 3: shared with the public because we do have to worry

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Speaker 3: about the security of the prison because people hear about

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Speaker 3: these assaults and it could then also entice further assaults

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Speaker 3: as well, So that's why sometimes they're not shared with

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Speaker 3: the public.

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Speaker 1: I guess it's reached the point at the moment where

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Speaker 1: some whistleblowers are coming to us because they are at

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Speaker 1: their wits ends. They are feeling like they're not safe

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Speaker 1: at work.

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Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely, Katie. To be honest that our members, the

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Speaker 3: correctional officers, a lot of them are broken. They are

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Speaker 3: quite disillusioned about their safety in the workplace. There is

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Speaker 3: that big fear is they can't control the growing numbers

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Speaker 3: that are happening that are coming into the prison because

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Speaker 3: there is a big focus on the current government about

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Speaker 3: law and order and looking at addressing the crime problems

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Speaker 3: within the Northern Territory, and when that happens, you're going

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Speaker 3: to have more and more people going to be going

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Speaker 3: into correction services.

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Speaker 1: Now eron, I just going back to that assault from

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Speaker 1: what I'm told. With that situation, normally the offending prisoners,

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Speaker 1: so basically two of those prisoners were apparently involved in

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Speaker 1: the assault as well, about four weeks prior they attempted

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Speaker 1: to light their cells on fire. They did a number

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Speaker 1: of other things, And this person tells, normally this situation,

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Speaker 1: in this situation, the offender prisoning lighting fires in their cells,

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Speaker 1: they'd be placed on a four stage management plan. But

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Speaker 1: for some reason some of this isn't happening. Is that

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Speaker 1: something that's being raised with you?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely that is correct information that you received.

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Speaker 2: Erina, How is this possible?

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Speaker 1: Like, how are we in a situation then within our

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Speaker 1: correctional facilities where where prisoners can assault prison guards to

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Speaker 1: that degree and then not go on some kind of

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Speaker 1: management plan.

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Speaker 3: It's absolutely insane, Katie. And the stuff that international we're

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Speaker 3: getting back from correctional officers members is that this bad

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Speaker 3: behavior is not being they're not being punished for their

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Speaker 3: behavior and stuff there. There's no consequences at all, and

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Speaker 3: that's where the correctional office still they're being let down,

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Speaker 3: especially by the middle management side of correction They're not

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Speaker 3: getting that support.

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Speaker 2: Erin, talk me through you.

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Speaker 1: Know what some of the concerns are and the issues

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Speaker 1: that are being raised with the union at the moment

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Speaker 1: over you know, over things not really being passed on

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Speaker 1: or passed through middle management.

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Speaker 3: So I think the main things that we're having we're

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Speaker 3: finding from correctional officers is so you've got the assaults,

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Speaker 3: that's that's a big issue there. They feel that there's

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Speaker 3: no redress for those prisoners and then officers need to

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Speaker 3: once you are assaulted, go back into back behind the

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Speaker 3: walls and have to be present with these prisoners. Is

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Speaker 3: that's the fear that this person they could be assaulted again.

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Speaker 3: Also too, there's concerns about work health and safety issues

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Speaker 3: which you've got your overcrowding, you've got your short star seeing,

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Speaker 3: and certain other issues which are more about the security

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Speaker 3: of the prison that aren't being addressed and they're not

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Speaker 3: being addressed quick enough.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I do want to talk about that security of

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Speaker 1: the prison and obviously not wanting to put our prison

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Speaker 1: guards in any dangerous situation, but are there prisoners who

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Speaker 1: are medium security being housed in areas which may not

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Speaker 1: be safe for the wider community i e.

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Speaker 2: Not high enough security.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's always been an issue that we've addressed with corrections.

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Speaker 3: It's something that we've been dealing with for over a

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Speaker 3: decade that there's concerned. So your correctional officers, your officers

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Speaker 3: who are actually behind the walls, who your grassroots, have

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Speaker 3: always expressed concerns that certain prisoners aren't in the correct

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Speaker 3: basically not in the correct sentence management, they're in the

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Speaker 3: wrong levels. And so we've always had these robust conversations Kadi,

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Speaker 3: and you'll have management or have different views.

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Speaker 1: But Aaron, what could that mean for the wider community?

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Speaker 1: I mean, could it mean that we are in a

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Speaker 1: situation where prisoners are more easily able to escape if

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Speaker 1: that's what they intend to do well?

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Speaker 3: It could be that could be one of the issues there.

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Speaker 3: But usually when you have skates, they're usually a sign

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Speaker 3: of an overstretched prison system, which could be having basic

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Speaker 3: the wrong sentence management. It could be the short staffing,

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Speaker 3: it could be the overcrowding. It's a workhelf in safety,

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Speaker 3: all of those types of issues, and that's where you

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Speaker 3: get this skate.

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Speaker 1: Do we have enough staff at the moment to be

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Speaker 1: able to keep those staff safe, you know, like and

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Speaker 1: other prisoners as well.

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Speaker 3: We'll have the moment. So forgive example, Darwin, so they're

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Speaker 3: roughly about sixteen officers short today, Alice Springs, they're roughly

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Speaker 3: about twenty five officers short today, So I know, Corrections

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Speaker 3: are actively trying to recruit, so they're recruiting, but then

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Speaker 3: people are leaving as well, so you're you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean, you're always trying to catch up at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Are some of those new recruits leaving because they don't

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Speaker 1: feel safe?

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Speaker 3: Some of that that has been a factor that has

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Speaker 3: been identified to the union. We did have some members

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Speaker 3: who are upset about the underpayment which was mentioned that

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Speaker 3: you brought up the other day from that correctional officer.

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Speaker 3: Also to some of their families don't like the Northern territory,

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Speaker 3: so there's pressure on them to leave. Some people wasn't

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Speaker 3: the expectation that they thought of when they were coming

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Speaker 3: to Corrections. So yeah, there's all these different factors. Some

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Speaker 3: people can't find housing as well, so yeah, these are

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Speaker 3: all different things that people have left.

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Speaker 1: How big an impact is the use of the watch

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Speaker 1: house having as well? Or you know, like I know

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Speaker 1: we don't have enough room, but how big an impact

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Speaker 1: is that use of the watch house having?

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Speaker 3: It is having some impact with our officers, Kadi, because

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Speaker 3: it's not the ideal situation. Officers know that you know

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Speaker 3: that they're not wanted in those watchouses. The police want

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Speaker 3: the watchouse is back. Corrections would rather have a properly

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Speaker 3: resourced prison where they actually can put these prisoners in.

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Speaker 3: So it is having some impact, especially in Alice Springs

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Speaker 3: and here in the Palmerston Watchhouse. But I know from

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Speaker 3: our discussions with Corrections Commissioner this moving the watchhouses and

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Speaker 3: finding better ones is a priority for them.

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Speaker 1: Erin, I mean, what from your perspective, what are the

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Speaker 1: biggest concerns right now for our correctional officers.

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Speaker 3: Biggest concerns is coming home safe each day is definitely one.

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Speaker 3: The overcrowding is as we know that the current government

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Speaker 3: are going to be implementing from new legislation, they're not

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Speaker 3: going to be able to control that and that's not

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Speaker 3: going to help with the numbers that are going to

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Speaker 3: come through corrections. So you've got that, Okay, what's going

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Speaker 3: to happen? You know, we could have another forty point

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Speaker 3: in tomorrow, we could have another twenty pill in tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: The current corrections system can not have all these prisoners

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Speaker 3: in there. We just don't have the availability.

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Speaker 2: And so like, what are the options at this point

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Speaker 2: in time?

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Speaker 1: Are there other facilities, other areas from what you understand,

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Speaker 1: that are going potentially to potentially.

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Speaker 2: Be looked at.

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Speaker 3: So according to the Commission of Corrections, and we've met

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Speaker 3: with him this week and we've been meeting quite regularly

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Speaker 3: with the Commission, and his executedive is they are looking

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Speaker 3: at bigger picture things and interim ones as well. We've

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Speaker 3: heard about the Burma Center, so that that is an

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Speaker 3: intra measure at the moment. Supposedly there's going to be

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Speaker 3: some announcements probably within the next week, Kaiti. Yeah, once

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Speaker 3: that's been approved by the Minister, that they'll be able

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Speaker 3: to share with the union, our members and then also

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Speaker 3: the public about looking at some other measures to deal

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Speaker 3: with corrections.

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Speaker 1: So where to from here from your perspective, I mean, obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know, the union represents some of these correctional officers

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Speaker 1: and you're not running you know, like you're not running

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Speaker 1: the correctional facilities that comes down to the department. But

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Speaker 1: where to from here from your perspective to try to

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Speaker 1: ensure that our correctional officers can go to work and

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Speaker 1: come home safely.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So that's a good question there, Katie. So our

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Speaker 3: union represents all correctional officers, except for the chief. So

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Speaker 3: basically where to from here with our members. They want

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Speaker 3: to continue with these open and transparent discussions with the

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Speaker 3: Commissioner and his executive because if we're having that information,

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Speaker 3: we can have it flow down to our correctional officers.

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Speaker 3: We need to ensure that the safety of our correctional

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Speaker 3: officers is a priority for corrections because if our correctional

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Speaker 3: officers are safe, then the prison prisoners are faith and

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Speaker 3: then the territory engines faith as well. We need to

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Speaker 3: ensure that we need to have a bit of priority

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Speaker 3: on the toxic workplace, which was mentioned by that officer

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Speaker 3: to the other day Kadi, because we are having issues

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Speaker 3: with workplace fulling, we've got fatigue management, all of so

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Speaker 3: pretigue management, all of these type of things impact the

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Speaker 3: toxicity of a workplace, so that's important for them.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm even told this morning that you know that

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Speaker 1: there is stuff happening now behind the scenes to try

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Speaker 1: and identify this whistle blob, which I think is quite appalling.

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Speaker 2: You know, the fact that.

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Speaker 1: Someone's come to the media to raise these concerns is

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Speaker 1: absolutely fair enough. And then you know to hear this

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Speaker 1: morning that behind the scenes, within the you know, within

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Speaker 1: the correctional facility somehow people are trying to find out

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Speaker 1: who has actually come forward. You know, to me, we

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Speaker 1: need to actually be able to raise concerns with the

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Speaker 1: media when you reach a point where you're no longer

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Speaker 1: feeling safe.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, Katie, And if there is true Katie and Corrections

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Speaker 3: do go after this officer. He will probably be a

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Speaker 3: member of ours and our union will do everything we

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Speaker 3: can to ensure the protection of our member in regards

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Speaker 3: to that, because everyone has the right to be able

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Speaker 3: to express their concerns, and that person had serious concerns

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Speaker 3: which are not just their concerns, their concerns of the

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Speaker 3: union movement and their concerns of all the officers they're

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Speaker 3: at Corrections as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, good now, Erina.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like you've spoken to me before about your

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Speaker 1: concerns within our correctional facilities and making sure that those

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Speaker 1: officers are safe. How do you reckon like in terms

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Speaker 1: of the new legislation that's being introduced and the fact

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Speaker 1: that you know, I mean, the reality is we are

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Speaker 1: probably going to see more people locked up. How difficult

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Speaker 1: do you think that's going to be to manage?

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Speaker 3: I think initially it probably will be difficult, Katie, because

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Speaker 3: we know that the government wants the law and order focused,

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Speaker 3: so there's going to be a lot of resource towards police.

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Speaker 3: But when you're dealing with law and order, it's not

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Speaker 3: just about police, it's about the court. It's about making

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Speaker 3: sure that they've got the best legal resources too. And

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Speaker 3: then most significantly too is corrections because that's where people

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Speaker 3: are going to end up, so we need to ensure

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Speaker 3: that they do have the correct resourcing, which includes the infrastructure.

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Speaker 3: It includes having enough staffing, not just correctional officers, but

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Speaker 3: you're non custodial as well, because they're at support. Very

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Speaker 3: good support network for correctional officers as well. So there's

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Speaker 3: a lot that just comes from locking more people up.

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Speaker 3: There's a huge flow on effect.

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Speaker 1: Well erin early, I really appreciate your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having a chat with us, and no

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Speaker 1: doubt we'll talk to you again soon. I hope that

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Speaker 1: you know the issues that have been raised around safety.

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Speaker 1: That is first and foremost my biggest con for any

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Speaker 1: frontline worker.

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Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, Katie would completely agree with you there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks so much for having a chat with me

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Speaker 1: this morning. Always appreciate your time Thanks Katie, you have

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Speaker 1: a great day you too, Thank you