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Speaker 1: Hello there, it's Amantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm currently on a break, so I've handpicked a bunch

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Speaker 2: of my favorite episodes from the last year to share

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Speaker 2: with you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, on with today's best of episode?

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Speaker 2: Can everybody see me? Just wait, I'm going to share

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Speaker 2: my screen. Wait, hang on a second. Okay, how about

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Speaker 2: Now we've all sat in these dry zoom presentations that

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Speaker 2: are slow, boring and engaging and often just plain painful.

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Speaker 1: We think to ourselves, how much longer is this going

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Speaker 1: to go?

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Speaker 2: For and don't forget to smile and look like you're listening.

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Speaker 2: But does it actually have to be this way? Co

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Speaker 2: founder and CEO of Phil Libbin thinks definitely not.

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Speaker 1: He's designed a tool that will.

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Speaker 2: Have your colleagues entertained and even laughing during presentations by

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Speaker 2: providing you with lots of fun tools and gadgets to

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Speaker 2: utilize so to stop your workmates from tuning out. And

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Speaker 2: this isn't the first time Phil has looked to make

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Speaker 2: life better and easier with technology, because before m Phil

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Speaker 2: and his team created the life changing note taking app

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Speaker 2: Ever note which I have been using every single day,

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Speaker 2: many times a day, for the better part of a decade.

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Speaker 2: So when it comes to building a business, which Phil

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Speaker 2: has plenty of experience doing. Why are the numbers three

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Speaker 2: and ten critical? And why is it better to be

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Speaker 2: positive during a meeting instead.

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Speaker 1: Of trying to appear to be smart?

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Speaker 2: And how can working from a museum help you solve

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Speaker 2: complex problems? And why is it important to differentiate between

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Speaker 2: difficult versus unpleasant decisions. My name is doctor Amantha Imbat.

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Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science

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Speaker 2: consultancy in Ventium, and this is how I work a

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Speaker 2: show about how to help you do your best work.

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Speaker 2: So I've been using Phil's latest technology product mm HMM

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Speaker 2: spelled mmmmm for about six months. Solves one of my

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Speaker 2: biggest frustrations with traditional meeting software, which is that the

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Speaker 2: slides when you're making a presentation are really big, and

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Speaker 2: the human presenting becomes the size of a postage stamp.

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Speaker 2: So with m HMM, you can superimpose your slides in

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Speaker 2: the background and put yourself in the foreground at any

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Speaker 2: size that you want to be, which is great for

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Speaker 2: actually making a connection with the people that you're speaking to.

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Speaker 2: So I wanted to know from Phil, who has obviously

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Speaker 2: thought a lot about this, what is the ideal way

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Speaker 2: to use slides in a meeting or a presentation.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think companies who make presentation software, you know,

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Speaker 3: who are in the business of making slides, they very

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Speaker 3: naturally act as if the slide is the most important thing,

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Speaker 3: and so like this whole like PowerPoint culture of slides.

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Speaker 4: Kind of comes from that.

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Speaker 3: And it isn't like you're you're much more important than

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Speaker 3: the slides that the presenter, the person doing that the

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Speaker 3: talking is much more important. So the slides are really

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Speaker 3: there as background material, which is why we literally put

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Speaker 3: them in the background instead of you know, right next

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Speaker 3: to you or in front of you in most setups,

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Speaker 3: because the focus really should be on you and your face,

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Speaker 3: on on how you're communicating, and having the slides be

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Speaker 3: you know, a visual reinforcement of it. We're trying to

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Speaker 3: change the cognitive style of presentations because they think that

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Speaker 3: the cognitive style of PowerPoint is is quite weak. It's

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Speaker 3: the style of you know, of pitching of bullet points

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Speaker 3: of things like that. They're these sort of lazy crutches

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Speaker 3: that don't lead to very effect presentations, and I think

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Speaker 3: on video they're just terrible. Like they think PowerPoint is

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Speaker 3: barely you know, effective in real life on video, it's

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Speaker 3: it's pretty much unbearable. Luckily, there's plenty of examples of

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Speaker 3: really effective video communications and slides. You just have to

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Speaker 3: go to TV. You have to go to comedy shows,

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Speaker 3: I don't know it live or the Daily Show, that

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Speaker 3: kind of stuff. So we just tried to recapture that

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Speaker 3: kind of spirit where it's a person talking or multiple

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Speaker 3: people talking, and the slides are meant to kind of

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Speaker 3: be the punchline, the visual reinforcement from time to time.

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Speaker 1: I love that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's in a way, it's kind of it's

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Speaker 2: such an obvious thing to do to put the person

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Speaker 2: in front of the slides, And certainly one of my

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Speaker 2: pet hates in terms of how Zoom works is that

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Speaker 2: the presenter is the size of a postage stamp and

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Speaker 2: the slides are enormous. And for me that was a

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Speaker 2: game changer when I started using HMM and suddenly the

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Speaker 2: focus is on the human. So I'm curious for you,

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Speaker 2: when you're creating a slide deck, when you're trying to

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Speaker 2: put forward an idea or a presentation, what are some

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Speaker 2: of the rules that you're thinking about when you're designing slides.

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Speaker 3: In the beginning, I think I just started. I was

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Speaker 3: just using my keynote slides out of power slide. I

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Speaker 3: was importing him in there you can drag him into

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Speaker 3: MHM and doing that, and some people still do that.

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Speaker 3: I pretty much stopped doing that almost immediately because I

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Speaker 3: realized that actually I wanted the constraint of altering the

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Speaker 3: slides in MM because they're.

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Speaker 4: Much they're much briefer, they're much shorter.

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Speaker 3: So usually it's just a couple of words or a

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Speaker 3: gift or a picture or maybe one chart. There's no

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Speaker 3: point in having, you know, multiple sentences, multiple points, multiple

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Speaker 3: equations on a single slide. But when you have something

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Speaker 3: like PowerPoint, it really it really breeds this style of

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Speaker 3: trying to just load it up with stuff, which makes

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Speaker 3: I think the presentations really, you know, really untenable, really unwatchable.

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Speaker 3: And it's almost as if like your slides are meant

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Speaker 3: to be viewed, like your deck is meant to be

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Speaker 3: something to be viewed without you, but that never works,

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Speaker 3: Like you should never send your slides ahead or behind

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Speaker 3: or something like. Your slides are not a document, it's

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Speaker 3: not a novel. It's not meant to it's not meant

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Speaker 3: to exist without you presenting it. You should make a

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Speaker 3: video with you presenting the slides together. But if you

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Speaker 3: look at it that way, then like, well, how complex

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Speaker 3: and intricate to the slides have to be? Well, not

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Speaker 3: very at all. So I just try to keep it

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Speaker 3: as simple as possible. So you know, yes about rules

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Speaker 3: like trying to keep things simple. So the first the

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Speaker 3: first rule of simplicity is simple as hard. And the

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Speaker 3: second rule of simplicity is there's obviously only one rule

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Speaker 3: of simplicity. You clearly haven't understood the first rule.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to know, like, what are the features that

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Speaker 2: you're using in M and maybe if we take a

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Speaker 2: step back from that, I mean, I guess I've kind

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Speaker 2: of described how I use but how do you describe

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Speaker 2: and what it is?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's a video communication tool. It's really meant

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Speaker 3: to give you, you know, video superpowers. I think most

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Speaker 3: people start by using it by when they're presenting on

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Speaker 3: Zoom or Google Hangout or Google Meet or Microsoft Teams

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Speaker 3: or WebEx or something like that.

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Speaker 4: That's the most common use case right now.

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Speaker 3: People just using it to present to make the presentation

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Speaker 3: a lot more more interesting, more more, more expressive, more dynamic.

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Speaker 3: What I and I still do that all the time,

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Speaker 3: but what we're doing now and our company is actually

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Speaker 3: shifting almost all of our communication to asynchronous. So we've

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Speaker 3: gone from talking to each other live when we're doing

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Speaker 3: status updates to just sending recordings around. So we have

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Speaker 3: you know, TV where people are just sending recordings of

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Speaker 3: them doing presentations and updating each other. And we save

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Speaker 3: the synchronous communication for for what you and I are

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Speaker 3: doing right now, for actually having a conversation where we

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Speaker 3: you know, we take turns talking, not for one person

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Speaker 3: lecturing and the other person listening. So more and more

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Speaker 3: it's about it's about shifting from synchronous asynchronous communication and

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Speaker 3: kind of smoothly going back and forth between those two.

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Speaker 1: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: I want to know what features your planning on building

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Speaker 2: in m and and what you're most excited about.

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Speaker 4: Well, we are.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm easily excitable. I'm excited about lots lots

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Speaker 3: of stuff. We've got a really ambitious roadmap. We announced

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Speaker 3: a lot of the stuff this summer. We had this

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Speaker 3: content series called Summer, which is on our website. If

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Speaker 3: you go to that app and click on the events section,

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Speaker 3: you can see a bunch of our demos and keynotes

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Speaker 3: and all of that stuff that we announced and demo

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Speaker 3: and preview that's all coming out. There's a bunch of

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Speaker 3: stuff around what I kind of think of as the

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Speaker 3: djification of the world, where like you can kind of

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Speaker 3: be a DJ and smoothly mixed between synchronous and asynchronous

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Speaker 3: parts of your of your video, so you can started

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Speaker 3: meeting live and then switch to something pre recorded and

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Speaker 3: then switch back to live and do that, do that

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Speaker 3: kind of smoothly and effortlessly. We're launching versions on an iOS,

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Speaker 3: on Windows, We're launching a new version for the Mac.

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Speaker 3: We've got, you know, lots of lots of product updates

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Speaker 3: coming out. But yeah, just watch watch the watch the

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Speaker 3: keynotes from from the summer to get a sense of

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Speaker 3: all the stuff that's coming, you know, between now and

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Speaker 3: a month or two from now. Now.

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Speaker 2: I imagine, because of the timing of when you started

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Speaker 2: m HM and you've been building lots of features along

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Speaker 2: the way that you would have had to rely heavily

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Speaker 2: on virtual collaborations. So I'm wondering what's been your approach

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Speaker 2: to doing that.

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Speaker 3: Well, Well, I don't know if we've done it well,

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Speaker 3: but we've done it. You know, it's actually been great.

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Speaker 3: I think when we started in May. We launched May

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Speaker 3: twenty seventh of twenty twenty, so we started a couple

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Speaker 3: of months after we all went into lockdown, and it

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Speaker 3: really started as a.

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Speaker 4: Joke, like we were just you know, we were so bored.

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Speaker 3: All the all of the video calls are so tedious,

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Speaker 3: and we were just goofing around. We're just trying to

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Speaker 3: find something to make us laugh while working on other projects.

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Speaker 3: But it kind of snowballed from there and so mm hmm.

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Speaker 3: It was completely created in a distributed way. You know,

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Speaker 3: we're up to close to one hundred people now working

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Speaker 3: on and the vast majority of them I've never met

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Speaker 3: each other in person. You know, it all hired them

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Speaker 3: during the pandemic. Fully globally. They're spread out all over

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Speaker 3: the world and it's great. I think the main thing

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Speaker 3: is we don't think of ourselves as remote. No one

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Speaker 3: is remote, because remote implies a certain disadvantage, like you're remote,

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Speaker 3: but other people are somewhere, you know, together.

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Speaker 4: We're not remote. We're distributed.

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Speaker 3: We're distributed by design, kind of like you know, the

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Speaker 3: Internet is a distributed system. It's a distributed network, not

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Speaker 3: because the people who created the Internet didn't know how

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Speaker 3: to make a centralized network, but because, like, being distributed

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Speaker 3: is kind of its whole point, that that's the superpower

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Speaker 3: of the Internet, and it makes certain things a little

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Speaker 3: bit harder. You know, a few things would be easier

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Speaker 3: if the Internet had one big central server, but obviously,

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Speaker 3: like no one thinks that that's a viable thing because

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Speaker 3: it has to be distributed by design. On so we

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Speaker 3: are we have we have designed our company to be distributed,

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Speaker 3: not because we had to, not because like we don't

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Speaker 3: know how to be in an office, but because of

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Speaker 3: the massive advantages it gives us.

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Speaker 4: And when you think.

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Speaker 3: About it like that, we're rather than focusing on the

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Speaker 3: on the few things that are harder, when you're a

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Speaker 3: distributed team, you really focus on the many things that

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Speaker 3: are better and that are easier. It makes everything, makes

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Speaker 3: everything more fun, it makes everything more productive.

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Speaker 2: And so, aside from the obvious advantage that you can

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Speaker 2: find talent anywhere on the planet, what have been some

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Speaker 2: of the other really big advantages around being distributed.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, the talent piece is like, let's not

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Speaker 3: dismiss that too quickly. I mean, that's that's just that's

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Speaker 3: worth it, right, Like you know you've talked to CEOs before,

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Speaker 3: all right, And I'm sure whenever you talk to a CEO,

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Speaker 3: literally one hundred percent of the time, if you ask, hey,

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Speaker 3: what's the hardest thing about this company? I guarantee you've

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Speaker 3: only ever gotten one answer, because you know, when we

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Speaker 3: go to CEO school, they teach us if anyone ever

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Speaker 3: asks like, what's the hardest thing about your companies, only

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Speaker 3: one answer we're legally have to give. We have to say, Oh,

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Speaker 3: it's it's the people, it's the talent, it's hiring and

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Speaker 3: getting the best people. Like that's literally the only thing

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Speaker 3: that any CEO's ever said in response to that question.

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Speaker 3: And it's true for the most part. And so here

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Speaker 3: we are we as you know CEOs you say in

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Speaker 3: the past, you know, fifty years winding about how the

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Speaker 3: hardest thing is people, and the universe has just given

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Speaker 3: us as great latest gift, the superpower where every single

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Speaker 3: job in my companies is now global. Is now I

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Speaker 3: can hire people from everywhere in the world, and they

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Speaker 3: they can stay where they are. They could do the

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Speaker 3: job the top of my talent a funnel has just

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Speaker 3: expanded by thousands of times, and I'm going to give

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Speaker 3: that up, Like, of course not, I'm never going to

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Speaker 3: give that up. So yeah, the fact that it's a fully,

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Speaker 3: fully globally distributed workforce is amazing. But that's just the

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Speaker 3: type of the iceberg. Another big, you know, benefit is,

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Speaker 3: you know, no one wastes any time commuting. Like one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent of the people who work at our companies

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Speaker 3: don't spend any time commuting. Imagine if, like somehow magically

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Speaker 3: that had always been the case in our company, like somehow,

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Speaker 3: you know, like alternate Earth, you know, Harry Potter style,

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Speaker 3: like people who just teleport to work to the office.

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Speaker 4: No one ever commuted, And.

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Speaker 3: All of a sudden, like I come into the office

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Speaker 3: the next day and I say, hey, everyone, like, everyone

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Speaker 3: gather around.

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Speaker 4: I've got a CEO idea. I'm going to need each

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Speaker 4: of you to spend.

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Speaker 3: To waste two hours a day sitting in traffic. Yes

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Speaker 3: it's not very productive, and you can't work, and yes

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Speaker 3: you're not any of the time with your friends and family,

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Speaker 3: and yes you can go like to a good restaurant

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Speaker 3: or listen to music, and yes it's very unhealthy and

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Speaker 3: very stressful and oh my god, it is terrible for

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Speaker 3: the environment. But two hours a day, every single person

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Speaker 3: wastes city and traffic go right, Like the board would

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Speaker 3: be like, see you, it's gone crazy. It would fire

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Speaker 3: me immediately. But you know, that's kind of what we're

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Speaker 3: asking people to do if we want them to quote

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Speaker 3: unquote go back to the office. And then you know

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Speaker 3: the fact that that one hundred percent of our employees

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Speaker 3: can choose where they want to live. They can they

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Speaker 3: can live in a nice house if that's what they want.

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Speaker 3: They can send their kids to a good school. They

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Speaker 3: can live in a city, they can live in a

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Speaker 3: small town. If someone's always wanted to live on the

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Speaker 3: beach and surf, they can do that today and still

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Speaker 3: have their job. And then, like for the first time ever,

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Speaker 3: every single person who works in our companies, who works

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Speaker 3: in a distributed company, can choose where they live to

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Speaker 3: have their best life independently from where they work to

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Speaker 3: have their best job. I mean that that's amazing. We're

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Speaker 3: never giving that up. And there's like there's like twenty

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Speaker 3: other superpowers that are kind of like of this level

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Speaker 3: of caliber, and when you think about them, you're like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm not.

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Speaker 4: I'm never giving these up.

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Speaker 3: So sure it's worth solving some problems to keep these,

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Speaker 3: but I'm definitely keeping them.

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Speaker 2: And so when it comes to collaborating with people that

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Speaker 2: you've potentially never met face to face, like, is there

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Speaker 2: is there almost like a template or a system that

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Speaker 2: you use, Like when do you know when to be

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Speaker 2: asynchronous versus synchronous?

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Speaker 1: For example?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm constantly surprised by by by how tall or

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Speaker 3: not tall people are when I first meet them in person.

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Speaker 3: I realize I never get that right, Like my mental

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Speaker 3: image is always off when they're like know someone for

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Speaker 3: a few months, you know, but on only online that

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Speaker 3: I see him in person for the first time, I

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Speaker 3: always like, wow, yeah I was wrong about that. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I have you know, for synchronous and asynchronous is a

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Speaker 3: really important thing that we're trying to get better at.

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Speaker 3: I have a test for this. I call it the

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Speaker 3: facehle test. It goes like this, When there's a bunch

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Speaker 3: of people and they're having a conversation and one person

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Speaker 3: is moving their face hole a lot, like for minutes

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Speaker 3: at a time, and no one else is moving theirs,

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Speaker 3: then something's gone wrong. That that's not a conversation, that's

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Speaker 3: a lecture, and it shouldn't be happening synchronously. If I

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Speaker 3: am doing all the talking and other people are listening,

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Speaker 3: they shouldn't be doing this in real time. I should

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Speaker 3: have recorded it. They can watch it when they want

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Speaker 3: to watch it. They can watch it at you know,

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Speaker 3: one point seven x speed. They can jump around, they

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Speaker 3: don't have to take notes like it's just any kind

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Speaker 3: of information transfer where it's primarily one person speaking for

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Speaker 3: multiple minutes shouldn't be synchronous. Should be It should be asynchronous.

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Speaker 3: Synchronous communication should be what we're doing here, which we're

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Speaker 3: having a conversation, you know, I move my face hole

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Speaker 3: for a few minutes and then you go and it's

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Speaker 3: like back and forth and then then okay, then that

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Speaker 3: should be synchronous. But so much of what we used

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Speaker 3: to do at work was we were having synchronous communications

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Speaker 3: in a way where it really was just noledge transfer

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Speaker 3: as one person at.

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Speaker 4: A time, And we just don't do that anymore. And

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Speaker 4: it's amazing.

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Speaker 2: That does sound amazing now, I know that you like, Well,

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Speaker 2: while a lot of people that work in a distributed fashion,

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Speaker 2: they do work from home a lot of the time.

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Speaker 2: But I've heard that you maybe work from home perhaps

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Speaker 2: thirty percent of the time, So I want to know

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Speaker 2: where else are you're working from.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this is a This is another big

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Speaker 3: kind of misunderstanding. People think that distributed work means working

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Speaker 3: from home.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't.

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Speaker 3: It meant working from home when we were all forced

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Speaker 3: to do it, you know, with no preparation because of COVID.

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Speaker 3: You know, we've had to work out of our apartments

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Speaker 3: and homes with screaming children in an environment that wasn't

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Speaker 3: set up for it. But distributed work means you can

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Speaker 3: you can figure out where your environments are and you

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Speaker 3: can pick. You can pick the work environment to best

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Speaker 3: accomplish whatever you're trying to accomplish. So I've got I've

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Speaker 3: got a few different places, so I work from home

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Speaker 3: some of the time, you know, about a third of

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Speaker 3: the time. I have a nice like av setup. So

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Speaker 3: if I'm like, like, for example, now I want to

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Speaker 3: be on a good microphone, I've got a good setup

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Speaker 3: at home, so I'll do that for my home studio.

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Speaker 3: But sometimes I work from a museum. There's two amazing

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Speaker 3: museums within walking distance of me. Without a ten minute walk.

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Speaker 3: I live in Benonville, Arkansas, and there's a museum called

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Speaker 3: Crystal Bridges, which is just breathtaking. It's like thee I've

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Speaker 3: ever been to. And you know, I can walk there

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Speaker 3: in ten minutes, and I can walk around the grounds

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Speaker 3: outside and inside, and it's amazing. Like whenever I need

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Speaker 3: to puzzle puzzle through something, I go and I do

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Speaker 3: it in the museum. Sometimes I go to the library

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Speaker 3: and sit down there if I just want a breathtaking

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Speaker 3: view with a lot of art. Sometimes I pace around.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes when I have co workers over, we go for

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Speaker 3: a walk together, and it's an amazing environment for being creative,

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Speaker 3: much better than like sitting in the conference room. And

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Speaker 3: sometimes I work from There's a club that I joined

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Speaker 3: which was a really nice pool and a gym, and

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Speaker 3: so I'll go work at the club and if I

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Speaker 3: feel like being around other people who aren't my employees,

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Speaker 3: just other you know, professional adults, sometimes that's useful. And

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Speaker 3: then I can do like a couple of zoom calls

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Speaker 3: in the club and then go go swim a few

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Speaker 3: laps in the pool, and then you know, a half

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Speaker 3: hour later, be back on a zoom call.

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Speaker 4: Because there's nice showers and things there.

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Speaker 3: And it turns out that like swimming laps in a

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Speaker 3: nice pool is like the exact opposite of being in

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Speaker 3: a zoom call, Like every sensation is the opposite of

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Speaker 3: it is like the ultimate recharge. And I would never

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Speaker 3: do this before. I could never before, like go for

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Speaker 3: a swim in the middle of the day, because what

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Speaker 3: I'd have to like drive to the gym and like

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Speaker 3: they just wouldn't happen. But now I can work from there.

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Speaker 3: So this idea of like being able to choose where

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Speaker 3: I want to be that I think is best for

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Speaker 3: accomplishing whatever I want to accomplish over a few hours

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Speaker 3: is kind of amazing. I'm never giving that up. And

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Speaker 3: all of this is walking distance, so it's not so

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Speaker 3: much walk work from home. It's really it's really walked

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Speaker 3: to work, Like I just walk around everywhere for these places.

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Speaker 3: And one hundred percent of my current lifestyle is accessible

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Speaker 3: to everyone in our companies. Like it's not because I

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Speaker 3: have more money. It would have been the case if

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Speaker 3: I had if I had this lifestyle in San Francisco.

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Speaker 3: But you know, when I used to live in San Francisco,

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Speaker 3: my my quality of living was much lower than it

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Speaker 3: is now. But to the extent that it was okay,

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Speaker 3: it was because I was spending a lot of money.

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Speaker 3: But now, like I think all of our employees can

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Speaker 3: literally afford to live in the house that I'm currently

403
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Speaker 3: living in and can afford to like be a member

404
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Speaker 3: of this club and go to the same museums because

405
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Speaker 3: it's all, you know, either free or inexpensive, because most

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Speaker 3: of the world is when you're not forced to congregate

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Speaker 3: in the same exact place as everybody else.

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Speaker 2: I love the idea of walking around a museum when

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Speaker 2: you're trying to puzzle through something. And something that always

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Speaker 2: fascinates me about founder CEOs is that I always imagine

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Speaker 2: this person who's a maker at heart that has had

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Speaker 2: to find a way to also be a manager in

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Speaker 2: terms of thinking about their diary or their calendar. And

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Speaker 2: I'd love to know for you, how do you think

415
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Speaker 2: about segmenting your calendar between maker versus manager activities that

416
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Speaker 2: you're doing.

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Speaker 3: So one thing I've done is I have canceled almost

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Speaker 3: all of our like I said, synchronous update meetings, which

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Speaker 3: freeze up many many hours a day for me. So

420
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Speaker 3: I used to when I used to look at my calendar.

421
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Speaker 3: What was I spending time on while I was having

422
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Speaker 3: I was having fourteen fifteen synchronous meetings a day, and

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Speaker 3: you know, fully half of those were just like one

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Speaker 3: on ones, you know, catch up meetings, standing meetings with

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Speaker 3: various people. Get rid of our percent of those. Now,

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Speaker 3: when when I need to exchange information, we exchange recordings asynchronously.

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Speaker 3: That lets me lets everyone watch them anytime. I don't

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Speaker 3: have to do it at a particular time, and much

429
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Speaker 3: faster because it turns out everyone sounds better and it's

430
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Speaker 3: actually more fun to watch at like one point five

431
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,320
Speaker 3: to two point zero speed rather than one x Like literally,

432
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Speaker 3: it's just it's just true. So why would you Why

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Speaker 3: would I want to watch someone updating me at the

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Speaker 3: same time they're speaking. Imagine if like when you're reading,

435
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 3: imagine you're reading something, then you were forced to read

436
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Speaker 3: at the same speed that the person who wrote it wrote.

437
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,679
Speaker 3: That don't make any sense. So we said I got

438
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 3: rid of most of my synchronous stuff. That freed up

439
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,199
Speaker 3: probably two hours a day. When I need to have

440
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 3: a synchronous conversation, I of course, you know, jump on

441
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 3: a call. We have a synchronous conversation, but by then

442
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 3: we're all in the same page. We're really having a

443
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 3: live discussion, so it's much better and much briefer. And

444
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 3: then I don't waste any time commuting, so that's another

445
00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,399
Speaker 3: like two hours a day, so you know, just pure

446
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,679
Speaker 3: calendar time. I've got four or five hours extra free

447
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,480
Speaker 3: time every single day that needs to be for which

448
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 3: is kind of amazing. And I use that to you know,

449
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 3: to be to be productive.

450
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 1: Wow, that's amazing when you describe it like that.

451
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 2: Now I want to talk about ever Note because I

452
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 2: feel really privileged.

453
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: To be talking to one of the people that actually

454
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 1: created it.

455
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 2: And I'm sitting here in front of my iMac and

456
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,679
Speaker 2: the only software applications that I've got open are Chrome

457
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 2: because that's how I'm using Zancaster to record this interview.

458
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 1: I've got Scrivener opened.

459
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 2: Because I'm on a deadline for a manuscript that's due

460
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 2: in under four weeks and I've.

461
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 4: Strong strong choice scriven or strong choice.

462
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 2: Oh, it's good, it's good. I just can't work out

463
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 2: how to do the bloody.

464
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: Reference list anyway.

465
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 2: My problem, not yours, and ever Note is the other

466
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 2: thing that's open, and I've used ever note for years

467
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: and years and years. I can't remember a life where

468
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 2: I didn't use ever note, and I wouldn't know. I feel,

469
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 2: how are you using ebanote? What can you teach me about?

470
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 2: How can I use abonoe better?

471
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 3: So, yeah, I use it, I mean use it every day.

472
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,920
Speaker 3: Obviously it's great. I have become I think as I've

473
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 3: like gotten older, I've become more selective about what kinds

474
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 3: of things I put in there. So I used to

475
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 3: put absolutely everything in there because I like it gave

476
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 3: me this feeling of security that I wasn't forgetting anything.

477
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 3: And then I think as I've gotten older, I've like

478
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,400
Speaker 3: gotten to appreciate the feeling of security that I get

479
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 3: from being okay and about forgetting things Like so, I

480
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 3: just know there's likes of stuff I'm just not going

481
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 3: to retain.

482
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 4: I'm like that, that's cool. You know, I'll learn it again.

483
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 4: I'll be happy.

484
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 3: So I'm more intentional now, like I put things in

485
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 3: every note that I tend to like have a higher

486
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 3: confidence level that I'm going to need again that I'm

487
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 3: going to want to you know that I'm going to

488
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 3: want to use Whereas it used to be, you know,

489
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 3: probably like I would probably look at two percent of

490
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 3: the things that I wound up putting in EVERYNOE, and

491
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 3: now I probably look at fifty to eighty percent of

492
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 3: the things that I wund up putting in there. So

493
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 3: that's but that's that's more about like my lifestyle, like

494
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 3: I just like care less about remembering, you know, every

495
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 3: single scrap of information and more about using it for work,

496
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 3: for organizing my thoughts, for organizing projects.

497
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 4: And yeah, I use it.

498
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 3: All the time, you know when when when I was

499
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 3: and I haven't been at EVERYNOE for six seven years,

500
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 3: so I can't can't take credit for for most of

501
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:20,479
Speaker 3: the new stuff.

502
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 4: One of the things that we.

503
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 3: Found when I was still there, which really explained a

504
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 3: lot to me when we realized this from our research,

505
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 3: was people who used Evernote for something that they loved,

506
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: that they cared passionately about were much much, much much

507
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 3: like more valuable power users than people who used it

508
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 3: for things that they don't quite care about, like people

509
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 3: who were like using every note at work because like

510
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 3: their company like forced them to use it or something,

511
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 3: they didn't really care about the stuff they were putting

512
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 3: in there. As totally makes sense in hindsight, but those

513
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 3: were kind of you know, lacksadaisical users, whereas people who

514
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 3: were using it for their like life's work, for the

515
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,360
Speaker 3: things that are most important to them were like really

516
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 3: power users were really in love with it. And you know,

517
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 3: we figured we had lots of data to kind of

518
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 3: back this up. But the thing that made it really

519
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 3: clear to me is I was talking to a pretty

520
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 3: good friend of mine who had, you know, I'd known

521
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 3: for many years already had ever Note, and he said

522
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 3: one to me one day, a you know, like i'd

523
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 3: been using every note for like three or four years now,

524
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 3: because you know, you started, and I figured, yeah, I'll

525
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 3: try it out. And I used it a bunch and

526
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 3: use it a work, and I never're like I was

527
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 3: never that into it. Like it was fine, but it

528
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 3: was never like that into it. And then I like

529
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: decided that I was going to write a book, and

530
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 3: I started using it to like collect ideas for the book.

531
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 3: And then I like understood how amazing it was because

532
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 3: I was finally using it for like the most important

533
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 3: thing in the world, tree and I couldn't I couldn't

534
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 3: put it down, and I thought that was like a

535
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 3: really beautiful thing. Like make a product that if you

536
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 3: use it for something you really care about, it's amazing.

537
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 3: And maybe've been trying to recapture.

538
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 4: Some of that.

539
00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 2: And so we will be back with Phil shortly where

540
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 2: he'll be talking about the rule of three and ten

541
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 2: for business and how this was life changing, and we'll

542
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 2: also hear from Phil about the difference between difficult versus

543
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 2: unpleasant decisions and why it's critical that you make that distinction. Now,

544
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 2: if you are after more content, you might want to

545
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 2: follow me on the socials, where I.

546
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: Produced quite a lot of content.

547
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: The two best places to follow me are on LinkedIn

548
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 2: just search for my name Amantha Imba. I think I'm

549
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: the only one on there, and also on Instagram, which

550
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 2: I'm starting to post a lot more content too, And

551
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 2: you can find me on Insta at Amantha. I something

552
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 2: I have never really used religiously in ever, note firstly

553
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: having different notebooks, like everything sits in my inbox, and

554
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 2: I haven't relied too heavily on tags, and like, am

555
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 2: I missing something really major?

556
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: There? Should I be chain? How I use epanos?

557
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 4: Well, you know.

558
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 3: I'm similar, So I have notebooks, but you know I

559
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,479
Speaker 3: probably have like fifty notebooks but realistically, I only use

560
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 3: like four or five on a regular basis, and I

561
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 3: barely ever use tags. I mostly just search for things.

562
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 4: And it worked great for me.

563
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 3: Because usually, like I can just type in a few

564
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 3: letters and I can find whatever I'm looking for.

565
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 4: I'm gonna find, you know, I'll get it down.

566
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 3: To like ten, and then when there's like ten notes,

567
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 3: I just like the last mile of the search, I

568
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 3: just see the one I want, right, so I can

569
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 3: just like click on this. I don't have to get

570
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 3: it like exactly right. So I don't use most of

571
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 3: that stuff either, but there's a lot of people who

572
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 3: religiously use it. What we found is that there's a

573
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 3: group of people who I think are like organizational fetishists.

574
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 3: Like they enjoy they derive pleasure from the act of

575
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 3: organizing something. They like putting labels on things and putting

576
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 3: things into little cupboards and stacking things up cleanly.

577
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 4: There's people like this, I get it. That's cool.

578
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 3: They're in to the organization for the sake of the organization.

579
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 3: They enjoy it, and that's probably I don't know, five

580
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 3: percent of the population. And they and these people have

581
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 3: like all sorts of you know, cultish things. There's like

582
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 3: getting things done people, and there's all sorts of like

583
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 3: different warring camps about how are properly organized things and

584
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 3: what taxonomies they want. And I'm not like that. I

585
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 3: don't enjoy the act of organizing. I just want to

586
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 3: have the benefits of it without actually doing the work.

587
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 3: It's not actually clear to me that like, well organized

588
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 3: people are inherently more productive than disorganized people. I am

589
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 3: fundamentally disorganized them in normal life, but I'm pretty productive.

590
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 3: But that's I guess one of the reasons why we

591
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 3: were so interested in ever note is like I wanted

592
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 3: to have the benefit of having this organizational fetish without

593
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 3: actually liking organizing things. So yeah, I just throw everything

594
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 3: in there and it you know, and it kind of

595
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 3: works out. But there's a there's a very hardcore user

596
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 3: base that loves, you know, nest the tags and multiple

597
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 3: notebooks and flags of different colors, and we were constantly

598
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 3: getting bombarded with requests for additional taxonomies, additional ways of

599
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 3: organizing for people who are into the organizing.

600
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: Now, given you describe yourself as being more on the

601
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 2: disorganized side of things, how do you organize your task

602
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 2: list and just what your priorities are on a daily, weekly,

603
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 2: monthly basis.

604
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 3: So you know, I've never actually succeeded in keeping a

605
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 3: to do list a task lisk. I don't have one,

606
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: like I've obviously tried all of them. We have them,

607
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 3: I never note, I just don't use one. I was

608
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 3: actually going to start at one point, I was going

609
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 3: to start a company. Most of my company ideas are jokes.

610
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: So if someone actually wants to build this, by all means,

611
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 3: please build that, I'll be a customer. I wanted to

612
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 3: start a task manager to do you know list that

613
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 3: was called too done or too did, And the way

614
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 3: it would work is there'd be no input. So I

615
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 3: would start this program, this app, and it would figure

616
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 3: out what I did just by looking at like my

617
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 3: calendar where I've been, and it would like it would

618
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 3: automatically put items that I'd already done and check them off.

619
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 4: So I would look.

620
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: At it and it would say, like watch Netflix for

621
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: two hours, check done, went swimming, check done, and that

622
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 3: was it. I would just look at it. The only

623
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 3: way the only thing you can do is look at it,

624
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 3: and I would just tell you if you already did,

625
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 3: and then you can be like Yep, that's what I did,

626
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 3: and you like feel a sense of accomplishment as if

627
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 3: you would like planned it, but it didn't really happen.

628
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 3: But I don't do that ahead of time. I generally

629
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 3: I live off my calendar. So I do have a

630
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 3: pretty well organized calendar. But that's because I have Leah

631
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 3: was my assistant, who does an amazing job and keeping

632
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 3: keeping the calendar organized. That's like my single source of truth.

633
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 3: I wake up in the morning, I look at my calendar.

634
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 3: I do what my calendar tells me to do. I

635
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 3: don't question it.

636
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 4: Uh.

637
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 3: And but in terms of like the kinds of topics

638
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 3: and things I'm working on, look, if they're not important

639
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: enough for me to remember, they're probably not really important

640
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 3: enough to do.

641
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: That's such an interesting way of thinking about things.

642
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: Now, I've heard you talk about the rule of three

643
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 2: and ten and how life changing that was for you.

644
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: Can you tell me a bit more about the rule

645
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 2: of three and ten?

646
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, So this is something that one of my one

647
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 3: of my friends and really one of my best mentors,

648
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 3: is a guy named a Mickey Harusha mccattuaney son. Mcatony

649
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 3: son is the founder and CEO of Rakuten which is,

650
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 3: you know, started in Japan, but now it's a big

651
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: global internet company and he was, you know, the first

652
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 3: employee and now it's I don't know, hundred thousand employees

653
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 3: and he's still the CEO. He's one of the most

654
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 3: amazing people that actually is like the best CEO from

655
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 3: one person to tens of thousands of people. And he

656
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 3: came up with this rule of three and ten, which

657
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: basically says that every time something important triples, everything breaks.

658
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,719
Speaker 3: So every time in your company something important triples, everything breaks.

659
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 3: So the idea is like, let's say, you know, you

660
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 3: start a company and it's just you. You're the only

661
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 3: person there, kind of figure out how to work, and

662
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 3: then you like hire one more person and things are okay,

663
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: and then you hire a third person and now it's

664
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 3: tripled and everything's broken. So now you got to like

665
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,479
Speaker 3: reconfigure everything. So you figure all that stuff out and

666
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 3: then four, five, six is all fine. But then you

667
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 3: hire the tenth person, everything breaks again. So it's three

668
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 3: and ten ten because it's just easier than keeping multiplying

669
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 3: by three. Nothing magic about ten because you'd be nine,

670
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,719
Speaker 3: I guess, but three and ten is easier to remember

671
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 3: and then you know, you figure it out for ten people,

672
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: and then it breaks again to thirty, and then it

673
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 3: breaks it one hundred, and then it breaks it three hundred.

674
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 3: And by it I mean like everything, like how you communicate,

675
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 3: how you pay people, how you keep your calendar, what

676
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 3: kind of office setup you have if you have an

677
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 3: office like it all, like every time you triple something

678
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 3: important and tripling. The easiest thing is tripling headcount, tripling

679
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 3: in place, but it could also been tripling the number

680
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 3: of customers, tripling the amount of revenue, like you know,

681
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: tripling the number of products that you have. Every substantive

682
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 3: tripling puts extreme strain on all of your systems, and

683
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 3: it's worth looking at them and anticipating it. And a

684
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,719
Speaker 3: lot of startups go through multiple triplings without noticing it.

685
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: So like right now at we're at about we're getting

686
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: close to a hundred people, right about one hundred people.

687
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 3: Probably by the time this podcast there is will be

688
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 3: a little over one hundred people. But you know, but

689
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 3: we still have certain systems. You're only a year old,

690
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 3: so we probably have some systems that we put in

691
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 3: place when we were three people, and so we've missed

692
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 3: now several triplings because we missed like three to ten,

693
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 3: ten to thirty thirty tow one hundred. So those things

694
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: are like way out of date and they need to

695
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 3: be refreshed. So a lot of startups get into trouble

696
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 3: when they kind of blow through a few triplings and

697
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: then things start to creak and things start to break.

698
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 3: The flip side of that is a lot of big

699
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: companies waste a lot of time trying to be quote

700
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 3: unquote innovative when they really don't have to. Like, you know,

701
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 3: if you're a ten thousand person company, like you're good

702
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 3: until you hit thirty thousand people. You don't need to

703
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 3: like figure out too much stuff. But you know it's

704
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 3: hard then that may take a decade, but it's hard

705
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 3: to like sit around for a decade without changing things.

706
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 3: So big companies tend to chase innovation and change a

707
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 3: little bit too much, and small companies tend to forget

708
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 3: about it and break things. So I just try to

709
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 3: be mindful of that.

710
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 2: Now, for people that are working as a manager, why

711
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: is it important to learn the difference between difficult and

712
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 2: unpleasant decisions?

713
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 4: Ah?

714
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a good's that's like that's probably

715
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 3: one of my favorite kind of things that I've I've

716
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 3: that I've learned, that I've figured out about myself. I

717
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 3: found that whenever I think, oh man, that's a really

718
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: hard decision, Like that's a hard decision. Whenever that happens,

719
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 3: whenever I feel like something is a hard decision, I

720
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 3: like a little red flag goes off and I ask myself,

721
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 3: is it hard like it's difficult to know what the

722
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 3: right answer is? Or is it hard like it's unpleasant?

723
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: And usually the vast majority of time, when I force

724
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 3: myself I think through that, I'm like, oh, yeah, I

725
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 3: know what the right answer is.

726
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 4: Is just unpleasant.

727
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 3: So probably ninety percent of the decisions that I perceive

728
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 3: as quote unquote hard, they're not actually difficult to know

729
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: what the right answer is. I know what the right

730
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 3: answer is. They're just unpleasant, they're scary. There's something about

731
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 3: them that that's bad. And once I kind of identify

732
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 3: which one it is, then then things become clear, not easy,

733
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 3: but clear. Obviously, if a decision is unpleasant, you should

734
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 3: still do the right thing regardless of whether it's pleasant

735
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: or unpleasant. You just have to deal with the unpleasantness.

736
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 3: But I think what I used to do is really

737
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 3: conflate those two things. And I think a lot of

738
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 3: people conflate that. I think a lot of people conflate

739
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 3: difficult decisions with unpleasant decisions, and they pretend that it's

740
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 3: hard to know what the right answer is when really

741
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 3: it's just an unpleasant answer.

742
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 4: Uh.

743
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: And yeah, that's that's like a that's probably my favorite.

744
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 4: Like management hack or life hack. It's just like something's

745
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 4: a hard decision, hard how.

746
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 2: And when you have an unpleasant decision to action, how

747
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: do you approach that conversation?

748
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 4: Uh? I mean it's very situation right.

749
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 3: It depends on what's what's unpleasant about it and how,

750
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 3: and but ultimately you just you have to do the

751
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 3: right thing and you have to do the right thing.

752
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 3: Like I very much dislike words like fearless. I think

753
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 3: for a while it seems to be receding, it seems

754
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 3: to be in remission. But for a while, like a

755
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: few years ago, everyone was like something something fearless, something something.

756
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 4: It was like it was way overused word.

757
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 3: And I think fearless is really like people. Fearless people

758
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 3: are just genuinely stupid. They really don't have any fear.

759
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 3: Then they're clearly too dumb to understand what the danger is.

760
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 3: I never try to be fearless. Being brave is about

761
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 3: experiencing fear. Like if you're not afraid, you're not brave,

762
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 3: you're just dumb. So you have to, you know, you

763
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 3: experience the fear and the trepidation, and you allow yourself

764
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 3: to experience and you just do the thing that you

765
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 3: have to do anyway, because that's the right thing to do.

766
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 3: It's not easy, but it's simple.

767
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 2: Now, on the topic of management hacks, and I'm not

768
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 2: sure if this falls under that category, but I've heard

769
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 2: that you always try to be the positive voice in

770
00:35:58,760 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 2: a conversation.

771
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: Can you tell me a bit about that.

772
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 3: It's not so much that I try to be the

773
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 3: positive voice. It's that there's there's a strong negativity bias

774
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 3: in people. Kind of cognitively, I have it. Almost everyone

775
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 3: has it, where basically it's easier to seem smart if

776
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 3: you're being negative. And this is especially true in social situations.

777
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 3: So you know, if you've got a bunch of people

778
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 3: sitting around and you you ask for someone's opinion, they're

779
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 3: kind of trying to seem smart and thoughtful in front

780
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 3: of everyone else, and it's much easier to do that

781
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 3: by pointing out the weakness, by pointing out the problems,

782
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 3: by pointing out the risks. It's just just how our

783
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 3: brains are wired. And then you know, the next person

784
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 3: has to like top the first person and being like

785
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 3: negative and afraid and so on. So typically, like decisions

786
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 3: are overwhelmingly weighed towards towards negative, towards the safest option,

787
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 3: the least bad option, not the most good option. And

788
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 3: this is you know, there's evolutionary biology for this. There's

789
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 3: like very basic brain science about this. You know, it

790
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 3: used to be thought that the amigdala the portion of

791
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 3: your brain. This is wrong and overly simplified, but still useful,

792
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 3: The portion of your brain that's basically in charge of

793
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 3: fight or flight responses. That's very old in evolutionary terms.

794
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 3: It exists in almost all animals. And then there's like

795
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 3: a much more recent human part of the brain that

796
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 3: deals with you know, opportunity and like happiness and love

797
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 3: and strategy, and that's that's in evolutionary terms, that's brand

798
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 3: new and very very weak compared to the power of

799
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 3: the of the dark side, of the fear and the

800
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 3: negative and the risk aversion and so when you're making

801
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 3: a decision, it's useful to understand is this the type

802
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 3: of decision where it's important to pick the least bad option,

803
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 3: or is this the type of decision where it's important

804
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 3: to pick the most good option? Understanding that least bad

805
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 3: and most good are often the same. They are often

806
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 3: the same the same thing. Like something could be the

807
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 3: most good if it works, but also the most dangerous

808
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 3: or the most.

809
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 4: Bad if if it doesn't work.

810
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 3: So you just got to know, like are you going

811
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 3: for least bad or are you going for most good?

812
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 4: And you know, if you're one.

813
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 3: Hundred thousand years ago, you know, one of our caveman ancestors,

814
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 3: and you're standing in the middle of a you know,

815
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 3: a grassy plane and you think you're saw a tiger

816
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 3: hiding in the grass. That's like the part of your

817
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 3: brain that's like meant you know, to do that, and

818
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 3: you're thinking like, well, should I go into that grass?

819
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 4: Maybe there's a tiger there?

820
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 3: Then yeah, maybe this is a type of decisions where

821
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 3: you should take the least bad outcome, which is like,

822
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 3: you know, do everything possible to avoid being eaten by

823
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 3: a tiger. But if you're like running a startup and

824
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 3: you're not about to get eaten by a tiger, and

825
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 3: you're trying to decide about a particular you know, what

826
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 3: to name your product or whether or not to put

827
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 3: in a feature, then like, maybe the downside is pretty

828
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 3: limited because like I can be eaten by a tiger

829
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 3: regardless of how you decide. So you may as well

830
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 3: make the decision based on what's most good. And you

831
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 3: can't do that if you allow any any focus on

832
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 3: the negatives and the downsides, because then then the lizard brain,

833
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 3: the amigdal a portion of your brain is going to

834
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 3: kick in and you're gonna you're gonna.

835
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 4: Buyas towards risk version.

836
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 3: So when we're making decisions where it's important to get

837
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 3: the most good, not not the least bad, I basically

838
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 3: try to discourage anyone from saying anything negative, not out

839
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: of some poly sense of like I only want to

840
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 3: hear good things, but because I don't want people's brains

841
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 3: shut off. So often I'll say, like, okay, I only

842
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 3: want to hear what can go right. I only want

843
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 3: to hear the good stuff intentionally as an exercise, as

844
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 3: a meditation, because I don't want anyone to like start

845
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 3: that cycle of being like, oh, but if.

846
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 4: We screw it up, maybe we get eaten by a tiger.

847
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 4: Which doesn't mean we don't look at the risks. Of

848
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 4: course we do.

849
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 3: We just we just try to separate those two things

850
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 3: out and look at them look at them separately.

851
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 4: But in startup life.

852
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 3: There's many, many, many, many, many many decisions where it's

853
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 3: more important to be the most good, not the least bad.

854
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: Now, Phil, for people that want to connect with you

855
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 2: and try out the wonderful things that you are putting

856
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: out into this earth, what is the best way for

857
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 2: people to do that?

858
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 3: Well, you can send me an email, but I do

859
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 3: have one hundred and you know other messages. Lay response

860
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 3: is tough, but yeah, you know Twitter, I'm at P libbin,

861
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 3: p L I B I N or that app or

862
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 3: al turtle dot com. Really, any of those are ways

863
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 3: to get in touch. And I am happy to happy

864
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 3: to chat anytime.

865
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 2: Amazing, Phil, it's just been such a privileged chatting to you.

866
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: Your products have just made my life so much better.

867
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: So thank you for the work that you've done.

868
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much. It's extremely kind of you

869
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 3: and really fun to chat.

870
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: Hello there. I hope you liked my chat with Phil.

871
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 2: And if you know someone that you think would find

872
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Speaker 2: it really useful, why not share this episode with them.

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Speaker 2: How I Work is produced by Inventium with production support

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Speaker 2: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was

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Speaker 2: Jenna Cooda, and thank you to Martin Nimba who is

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Speaker 2: the audio mix for every episode and makes all of

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Speaker 2: this sound much better than it would have otherwise.

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Speaker 1: See you next time.