1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: About four years ago, I was sitting in an airbanb 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: in New York, and instead of being out exploring the city, 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: I was curled on the couch reading a book called 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: Essentialism by Greg McEwan. You know when you read a 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: book and it transforms the way you think about something, Well, 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: that's what Essentialism did for me. 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 2: And when I. 8 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: Think about that book, I think about how it really 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: made me prioritize what I choose to work on. And 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: it also turned me into a huge Greg McEwan fan. 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 1: And when I found out that Greg had written a 12 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: new book called Effortless, I was beyond excited to read it. 13 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: And I was even more excited when Greg said yes 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: to my invitation to be on How I Work. So 15 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: if you have ever struggled your way through a really 16 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: tough project, or if you're maybe feeling like you're working 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: harder than ever before, but maybe you don't have the 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: results to show for it, I think you are going 19 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: to love this chat with Greg. We talk about some 20 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: really practical strategies to make hard work well effortless. My 21 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: name is doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist and 22 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: the founder of Behavioral Science Consultancy Inventium, and this is 23 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: how I work a show about how to help you 24 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:30,199 Speaker 1: do your best work. 25 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: So writing a book is hard work. 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: And I know this because I'm currently working on my 27 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: third one, which Greg and I actually talk. 28 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 2: About during this interview. 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: But I was keen to know from Greg how did 30 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: he go about writing his latest book effortless and make 31 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: that process effortless for himself. 32 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 3: Well, there were some things that I did that made 33 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 3: it a lot harder than it needed to be. An 34 00:01:55,760 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 3: example is is any day that I worked beyond let's 35 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 3: say three hours as a max. You know, if I 36 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 3: tried to do four hours or six hours or longer, 37 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 3: I didn't just hit diminishing returns, I'd hit negative returns. 38 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 3: So diminishing returns is where every unit of effort you 39 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 3: put in you're getting a little less back. But negative 40 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 3: returns are where for every unit of effort you're putting in, 41 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 3: you're actually getting a worse overall result. So you know, 42 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 3: the manuscript is getting worse than it was before I 43 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 3: started that day. You know, you're you're you're going backwards. 44 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 3: And so I learned that I needed to get the 45 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 3: pace right. So so I said, okay, you know every day. 46 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 3: I'm going to work on it five days a week. 47 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 3: I will open the Google doc. That's my minimum standard. 48 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 3: I will go into it. But the but the maximum, okay, 49 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 3: never more than three hours. We're just going to you know, 50 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 3: resolve it that way. Similar upper and lower bounds for 51 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 3: the number of words written. You know, less than one 52 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: hundred words, but never more than five hundred words. You know, 53 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,119 Speaker 3: you're trying to make sure that you don't use up 54 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 3: more mental energy. Then you can recuperate each day that 55 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,839 Speaker 3: you're not using up more mental energy this week, Then 56 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 3: you can recuperate this week. Why because you want to 57 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 3: be able to sustain the pace and get the you know, 58 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 3: get the job done. 59 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: Talking about the upper and lower bounds idea which I 60 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: found really interesting in terms of going, okay, well, this 61 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: is the minimum I have to do in a day, 62 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: and this is also the maximum. How did you go 63 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: about setting those upper and lower bounds for yourself? 64 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 3: If you're trying to find the right pace, you just 65 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 3: have to create some self awareness as to what is 66 00:03:55,040 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 3: your optimal input on whatever project you're working on. So 67 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 3: for me, you know, I had to keep asking the question, 68 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 3: how can I make this as effortless as possible to 69 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 3: write a book that can have a significant impact. You know, 70 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 3: I'm not changing the goal, I'm not changing the aspiration, 71 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 3: but I'm trying to constantly challenge myself in finding a 72 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 3: better strategy. Another thing that I did was to try 73 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 3: to make sure that I had the right team working 74 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 3: with me. People that I had a high trust relationship with, 75 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 3: so I'd trust their work, trust their research. An editor 76 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 3: who'd worked with me on Essentialism before effortless, you know, 77 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 3: working with her again, I trust is so high she 78 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: can go in and work on it. There were times 79 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 3: when we'd be working in this same you know, shared 80 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 3: doc together, or at the same time, a researcher Jonathan Cullen, 81 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 3: who would be bringing in stories specifically that I'd asked 82 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: him to go and gather Italian. My editor would be 83 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 3: working on a section that I'd previously written the day before, 84 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 3: and it was almost like a Harry Potter esque scene 85 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 3: where you could see everybody working seamlessly together. And there 86 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 3: were so many moments like that through the process that 87 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: I thought, this is effortless, you know, it's effortless, on effortless. 88 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 3: It's just amazing to watch this team working together and 89 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 3: to enjoy it so much. 90 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: Now, what's the question that you recommend asking when you're 91 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: feeling overwhelmed by what you have to work on to 92 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: help sort of reset our thinking. 93 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 3: Well, I think that you can invert the typical overachiever mindset. 94 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 3: So let's set some context here. I wrote this book 95 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 3: for what my brother Justin calls the hit squad. This 96 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 3: is for people who are hard working, intelligent, talented, right, 97 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 3: that's the hit squad part of it. This is who 98 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 3: the book is for. And you know that's who's listening 99 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 3: to this conversation right now. These are people who want 100 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 3: better results continually. In fact, probably nobody listening to this 101 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 3: would mind if they could have ten x results, ten 102 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 3: x results in their career, in their relationships, in their business, 103 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 3: if they're running a business, I mean, you know, that 104 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 3: would be fine. They aspire to significant breakthrough results. The 105 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 3: complication is that there's not one of them, not one 106 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 3: person listening to this can work ten times harder. And 107 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 3: it's that contradiction or that creates this challenge, because if 108 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: you want better results, but you're already running out of space, 109 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 3: you're already pushing yourself to the limit or sometimes well 110 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,559 Speaker 3: past it, and then you say, well, I'm not getting 111 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 3: the results they want, therefore I need to push even harder. 112 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 3: Then what you do is burn out and you still 113 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 3: don't get the results. That really matters so much to you. Now, 114 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 3: contrast that with what I'm arguing in Effortless, which is 115 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 3: what if you could make the trivial things in your 116 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 3: life harder but the essential things significantly easier. Well, the 117 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 3: value proposition there is that you that you could achieve 118 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 3: the results you want, the breakthrough results you want, but 119 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 3: not only without burning out, but also with an upgrade 120 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 3: in your lifestyle you enjoy the experience more all along 121 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 3: the way. That's who Effortless is for, and that's why 122 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 3: I wrote it. 123 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: And what's that key question that you talk about in 124 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: the book in terms of something we can ask ourselves 125 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: to help reset our thinking when we are feeling really 126 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: overwhelmed by what we're working on. 127 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 3: I think the question you're pointing to is just how 128 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 3: can I make this effortless? How can I make this easy? 129 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 3: It's not something that I would advocate everybody ask. If 130 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 3: somebody is not putting in any effort at all, then 131 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 3: there's a lot of upside to just, you know, getting up, 132 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 3: getting off your behind and going and getting on with 133 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 3: the job at hand. I mean, there's a lot of 134 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 3: results you can improve. I'm fully in favor of effort. 135 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 3: I believe in it myself. I believe in it for 136 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: my children, I believe in it for the businesses I've 137 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: worked with and built. Nevertheless, as I already said that, 138 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 3: there's this limit. So one, when we ask a better question, 139 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 3: we get a better answer. And so simply by inverting 140 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 3: the question we normally ask, which is how can I 141 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 3: get better results by working harder? You say, how can 142 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 3: I get better results by making it, you know, as easier? 143 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 3: What what if? What would this look like if it 144 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 3: was easy? And I remember working with someone in you know, 145 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 3: perfect sample of someone in the hit squad. Who is 146 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 3: the type of person she said, who's up till four 147 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 3: in the morning photo shopping for a youth activity at 148 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 3: church the next day, and no one's asking her to 149 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 3: do that. But that's you know, she's just wanting better 150 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,839 Speaker 3: results and thinking the only way to it is relentless 151 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 3: self sacrifice. And she even feels if she eats lunch 152 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 3: that she feels guilty. And so I said, well, look 153 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: ask this. You know, invert, invert this, break out of 154 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 3: that paradigm, out of that mindset. Let's see if there 155 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 3: isn't you know what would happen if you asked that question, 156 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 3: how can this be effortless? You want a great result, 157 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 3: but how can you do it in an easier way? 158 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 3: And she gets a call then from a professor she 159 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: works at a university who wanted her to record a 160 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 3: semester worth of his class, and she just almost automatically 161 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 3: jumped into the overachiever of mindset. I'm going to get 162 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: three different cameras in the room, so we'll get different angles, 163 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 3: we'll edit it all together, We'll have intros and outros, graphics, slides, music, 164 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 3: We'll we'll just wow him. And then she remembered the 165 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,599 Speaker 3: coaching and she said, okay, invert this. Can I get 166 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 3: the result that he wants with it in an easier way? 167 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 3: And so then she started asking questions around that. Well, 168 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 3: in just a few minutes of talking with him, she 169 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 3: discovered that this was really for one student who just needed, 170 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 3: you know, to have a few of the classes because 171 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 3: he's going to be missing them for an athletic commitment. 172 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 3: And the solution they came up with was just have 173 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: another student record it on their iPhone and send it 174 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 3: to him whenever he was going to miss. The professor 175 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 3: was delighted. He hadn't thought about that because he was 176 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 3: over complicating it. And she puts hangs up from the 177 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 3: phone and she says, I just saved four months of 178 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 3: time for an entire team for the sake of ten 179 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 3: minutes with this inverted question. So that's the question, how 180 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: can I make this essential thing effortless? 181 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 2: I love that. 182 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: Now in the book you talk about how Richel's habits 183 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: that we've put our thumb print on, and I love 184 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: that way of thinking about rituals, and I want to 185 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: know what are some of your work rituals. 186 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 3: One ritual that I picked up from another entrepreneur is 187 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 3: that if I'm going to have a lot of phone 188 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 3: calls to make with people, you know, I may just 189 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 3: literally go and sit in the hot tub and call 190 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 3: them all back. You don't have to be you know, 191 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 3: you don't have to be so formal about it all. 192 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 3: And it turns what could just feel a bit like 193 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 3: drudgery into something that's funny. And I tell people and 194 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 3: it's not a secret, and we just laugh about it, 195 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 3: and we get the job done still, but it's in 196 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: a more enjoyable environment. And so you know, that's the idea, 197 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 3: is to splice together something that previously you thought, well 198 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 3: it's essential, but it's drudgery, and you say, well, well 199 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 3: what if you could combine it with something enjoyable you 200 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 3: want to do anyway, and you create a ritual from it, 201 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 3: so then you actually look forward to doing it. 202 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: I love that hot tub example. What are some other 203 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: things like? I'm thinking of email for example? That is 204 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: definitely a non enjoyable task for many people. 205 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 2: Have you cracked making email more enjoyable. 206 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,359 Speaker 3: I have a friend who's amongst the most highly productive 207 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 3: people I have you know, I've ever met. I don't 208 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 3: even quite know how he does everything he accomplishes. It 209 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 3: is pretty remarkable. And one of the things he does 210 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 3: when he's very responsive in email. If I respond, if 211 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 3: I email him, he might email me within two minutes. 212 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 3: He's very responsive, but he'll be very very succinct in 213 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 3: his answer, so he's not carrying the burden. You know 214 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 3: when somebody sends you an email and you're like, oh, 215 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 3: I don't know what to say about that. Yes, right, 216 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 3: and then you hold on to that and it sits 217 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 3: in your inbox. I've been guilty of this. I've had 218 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,359 Speaker 3: email sit in my inbox for days, weeks, months sometimes 219 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 3: and you process it ten times, twenty times sometimes because 220 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: you keep seeing it. Oh yeah, I've got I don't 221 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 3: know what to do about it, and then you move 222 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 3: on to something else, and then eventually, oh sorry, I 223 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 3: didn't get back to you, you know, and you don't 224 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 3: say it, but dot dot dot, I haven't known what 225 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 3: to say all this time. It's and you, You've you 226 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 3: take that email task and you you make it ten 227 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: times harder than this friend of mine deals with it. 228 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 3: He deals with it instantly. And so since since my 229 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 3: last exchange with him, I thought, yeah, I've got to 230 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 3: process email differently in the next Literally since then, I've 231 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 3: just made just been decisive every single thing and just 232 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 3: responded quickly. And I thought, there's something quite nice about 233 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 3: about getting a quick response from someone and not just 234 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 3: having it disappear and never know whether you're going to 235 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 3: hear back from them again. And I found it. You know, 236 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 3: it's a hyper efficient way of dealing with email. 237 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: Hey there, Amantha, here, we're going to get back to 238 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: Greg in a moment, and in the next part of 239 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: this interview, Greg gives me some advice on how to 240 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: make a big project that I am working on much 241 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: much easier. 242 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: And if you're enjoying how I. 243 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: Work, make sure you connect with me on these socials 244 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: because I post quite a bit of extra content there. 245 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: So hunt me down on LinkedIn, look for Amantha Invera. 246 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: I think I'm the only one. Or follow me on 247 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: Twitter at Amantha or on instagt, which I'm getting back 248 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: into for various reasons, and you can find me there 249 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: at amount of eye. You talk about reducing the lag 250 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: indicator for essential activities and a reward. Can you give 251 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: an example of how you've applied that concept to your work, 252 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: whether it be with your writing or consulting or something 253 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: like that, maybe even with writing the book, like because 254 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: that can be you know, fairly grunt worksh day after 255 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: day hitting a word count. 256 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: I'm right in the middle of that process myself, so 257 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: with rating. 258 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm working on my third book at the moment 259 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: and on a fairly tight deadline. 260 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: And you're feeling and you're feeling the stress of it. 261 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: I am like, I've I've got a calendar on my 262 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: whiteboard that literally says how many words I want to 263 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: have written by the end of each week in order 264 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: to hit my deadline in October, And like every day 265 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: like I enjoy the writing, but then some days it's 266 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: like I'm doing this just so I don't fall behind. 267 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: And I'd love to know, like maybe if you have 268 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 2: any advice for me. 269 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: On how I can you know either like reduce the 270 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: lag indicator, because certainly, come October, I'm going to be 271 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: feeling really happy because I'm going to be submitting a 272 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: complete manuscript. But right now, I'm in the thick of it, 273 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: and I've got all these things that I need to 274 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: do and research and write about, and I feel overwhelmed, 275 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: and it like it doesn't feel terrible, but it doesn't 276 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: yet feel effortless, and like, you know, I feel good 277 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: when I hit my word count for the day, but 278 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: it can feel like hard work on some mornings. 279 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: So what should I do? 280 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 3: Greg? Yeah, I got to ask a couple more questions 281 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 3: about it. How are you on a scale of one 282 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 3: to ten on your like your energy level right now, 283 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 3: like your overall physical fatigue. I'm good, I'm good. Yes, 284 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 3: you're sleeping well, very in resting well, You're relaxing. Well, yeah, 285 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 3: so then you come to do the job. Which part 286 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 3: is hard? Is it? The thought about writing? Like you go, oh, 287 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 3: I've got to do that again. 288 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: I think it's the idea that I have to write 289 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: this book, but I also have to do my job 290 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: in terms of my full time job. My hours have 291 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: not increased in terms of what I do within my 292 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: consultancy inventium, but now, all of a sudden, sixty thousand 293 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: words have to appear from nowhere by October nineteen. 294 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: So I write. 295 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: I write every day as part of my job, and 296 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: so you know, I enjoy the process of writing most days, 297 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: although some days I'd prefer to be doing something else. 298 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: And so it's just kind of going, oh, gosh, I've 299 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: got this huge extra project that I have to do 300 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: along with everything else that I'm working on, and sometimes 301 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 1: that can feel a little bit overwhelming. 302 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can imagine. That sounds like it's the I mean, 303 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 3: even what you just said that the sixty thousand words 304 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 3: that alone just feels like, oh my goodness, I'm really 305 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 3: going to get sixty thousand words done. So what do 306 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 3: you do now? Tell me your current process? 307 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 2: What I do. 308 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: Now is the very first thing I do on almost 309 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: every workday unless I've got a commitment like a keynote 310 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: or something that is not movable in terms of time. 311 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: Is that I will write but between one thousand to 312 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: fifteen hundred words per day, and I will do that 313 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:34,959 Speaker 1: five days a week. 314 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 3: There's a lot of words. 315 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: It's quite a lot of words. But having said that, 316 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: a lot of the research has been done, so that 317 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: makes it a lot easier. 318 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 3: Is the hardest thing, just oh, I've done this for 319 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 3: a while, I'm in the Is it that you're sort 320 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: of in the y of the motivational curve where you're 321 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 3: halfway done with it and so you've already put in 322 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: a lot of work which you're not actually close to 323 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 3: the end. Is that the experience you're having. 324 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's it. I absolutely do. Yeah, I 325 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: think I'm right in the middle of it. 326 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 1: And funnily enough, I'm at about the halfway point of 327 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: the first draft. Like I haven't gone through my own edit, 328 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, littlone submitted it to my actual editor. But yeah, 329 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: I feel, yeah, I feel like right in the trenches 330 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: at the moment. 331 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 3: Yes, there's you know, the yuke of motivation. For those 332 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 3: who don't know about it is that you feel you 333 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 3: feel more motivated at the beginning of a project and 334 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 3: at the end of a project, and as you get 335 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 3: as you get close to halfway, that's that's the lowest 336 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 3: the lowest EBB in any project because you can still 337 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 3: see how much is left to go, but you don't 338 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 3: have the evidence of success because it's not actually finished. 339 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: And so so I think you might want to construct 340 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 3: some sort of reward system for like the next literally 341 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 3: the next two weeks. You know something that you say, Okay, 342 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 3: like what's what's a reward that you just something that 343 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 3: would just be really enjoyable for you? What do you 344 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 3: love to do? Regardless of this, I love. 345 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: To read fiction, and I right now would love to 346 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: get a massage that would be really nice. That is 347 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: not something I've had done in quite a while. Yes, 348 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: there are two things that come to mind. 349 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 3: Okay, here's here's you could do this. You say, Okay, 350 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 3: we have ten days worth of work, so not completing 351 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 3: the manuscript, but ten days of hitting your goal. I'm 352 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 3: going to say for you a thousand words. I'm reducing 353 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 3: your goal for you a thousand words a day, and 354 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 3: every day you've done a thousand words, counter off, and 355 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 3: I want this graphically in your office so you can 356 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 3: You're like you're a you know, a child in primary school, 357 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 3: and you're marking off each day and at the end, 358 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: you know, Okay, the end of ten days of doing this, 359 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 3: I get a massage. Okay. That is one thing that 360 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 3: I think you literally could do. I think on the fiction, 361 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 3: I wonder whether even like you schedule your time to 362 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 3: write your book, whether you don't say, okay, as soon 363 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 3: as I hit five hundred words, I read a chapter 364 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: of my of a book that I love right now, 365 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 3: just give my brain a little bit of a break, 366 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 3: so you do like, let's say, how long does it 367 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 3: take you to do you a hundred thousand words? 368 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: Oh, I'd say sort of nineteen minutes to two hours, 369 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: I'd say. 370 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 3: So maybe you say, actually, fine, you do it like that. 371 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 3: You say, I'm doing a nineteen minute sprint. You don't 372 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 3: even have to call it a sprint. We do a 373 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 3: ninety minute segment and then I read for ten minutes 374 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 3: out of a book that I am really looking forward to. 375 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 3: So you could have that right on your desk. You 376 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 3: set your time, you say, ninety minutes from now, I'm 377 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 3: reading that, well, you know, I'm just going to keep 378 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 3: going on this with a cycle. There's really interesting research 379 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 3: that I came across in writing Effortless, which is done 380 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 3: by Anders Eriksson, that he was curious about the sleep 381 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 3: rhythms that we all know about, these ninety minute rhythms 382 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 3: that you have. Each of us to have a good 383 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 3: night's sleep need three of these cycles. And he just questioned, like, 384 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 3: what if that isn't a sleep phenomenon, what if it's 385 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 3: a human phenomenon, that isn't just a nighttime thing, but 386 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 3: just a life thing, that we're all just rhythmic beings 387 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 3: that they continue into the day. And he found as 388 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 3: he continued this research that it did continue into the day. 389 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 3: And so the ramification of that is that we should 390 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 3: prioritize three pieces of work in the morning in ninety 391 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 3: minute approximately ninety minute cycles, so that you do your 392 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 3: ninety minutes, and you take a break for ten minutes, 393 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 3: ten even as many as fifteen minutes, you go for 394 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 3: a walk. In this case, you read it fictional, you know, 395 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 3: your fiction book, not at the end of the day. Only. Okay, well, 396 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 3: I've saved up all day. Now I can read a 397 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 3: bit of fiction. But you build that into your schedule 398 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 3: so that you take that ten minutes, give your brain 399 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 3: a rest, and you're signaling to yourself going forward, like, hey, listen, 400 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 3: I write, and then I have this enjoyable ritual almost 401 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 3: immediately following it, well, immediately following it. How does that 402 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 3: sound to you? Does that sound like a nice ritual 403 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 3: for you? 404 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 2: It does, it does, Greg. I'm excited. 405 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: I've been taking notes as you've been talking, and I'm 406 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 1: going to do that from monday. 407 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: I'm loving the sound of that. 408 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 3: Yes, thank you, Yeah, And just to connect the dots here, 409 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 3: it's what we're trying to do. Rituals are habits with 410 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 3: a soul. Habits are what we do. Rituals are how 411 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 3: we do them. And if you can create the right ritual, 412 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 3: you enjoy the experience of doing it. I'm still trying 413 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 3: to think for you about what would make that first 414 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 3: ninety minutes, you know itself more enjoyable. Let me ask 415 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 3: you this, what are there some days you say, some 416 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 3: days you really enjoy it, versus other days it feels 417 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 3: more drudgery, right, which makes sense. I mean there's ups 418 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 3: and downs for all of us, But what is it 419 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 3: on the days that you enjoyed the experience. What's different 420 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 3: for you? 421 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,959 Speaker 1: I think one of the things, and I've had this 422 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: advice from a couple of guests on the show. I 423 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 1: think it was Adam Grant and Rachel Botsman, and they 424 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: both talked about how they would essentially end their workday 425 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: with this concept of parking on a downhill slope, like 426 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: they would finish work, you know, like if it was 427 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: writing work, it would be mid sentence or mid paragraph. 428 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: And I think when I've kind of when I start 429 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: the day and I've got that momentum, like I've actually 430 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: started writing the chunk that I'm going to be working 431 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: on the following day, and I've started that the day before, 432 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: then it does it kind of feels effortless, like I 433 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: get I can get into flow much more quickly. 434 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 2: So that's definitely something I've noticed. 435 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 3: That that puts me in mind. So so of course 436 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 3: you can. That's a specific thing you could put into 437 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 3: a ritual. I'd probably encourage you to write up a 438 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 3: ritual like a recipe for you with writing, because yours 439 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 3: will be different to mine, will be different to Adams, 440 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 3: like everyone has their own rituals. And but if you 441 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 3: can pay attention to your what works for you or 442 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 3: you add that in it. So we've obviously this is 443 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 3: now sort of our third specific piece of the ritual 444 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 3: for you know, for you that you have this on 445 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 3: a list so that you can keep coming back to 446 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 3: it and tweaking what really works and what and what doesn't. 447 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 3: I think I think that that's that's part of this, 448 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 3: you know, creating a ritual. I John Acuff would be 449 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 3: a great guest at your show if you want to 450 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 3: have him on. He wrote a book recently called Soundtracks, 451 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 3: and he's terrific and and one of the things that 452 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 3: he said is that in his wife came to him 453 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 3: and said, you are You're miserable to be around through 454 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 3: the two years that you write a book. And then 455 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 3: she said, and you're and then you're you're really miserable 456 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 3: to be around for the two years marketing the book afterwards. 457 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 3: And it really challenged him to think, well, how am 458 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 3: I thinking about this work? And and you know many 459 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 3: as many writers have have read the idea, well, it's 460 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 3: easy to write. All you have to do, is, you know, 461 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 3: is to pull up a typewriter and bleed that kind 462 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 3: of language. And the idea that writing is one of 463 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 3: the hardest things you'll ever do, and all that thinking, 464 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 3: that is a paradigm, that is a way of thinking, 465 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 3: and he recognized it as such, and he suddenly said, well, 466 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 3: I'm going to choose a new soundtrack. I'm going to 467 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 3: choose a new way of thinking, a new mantra. And 468 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 3: the phrase he pulled was light and easy, that he 469 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 3: was going to try to make writing as light and 470 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 3: easy as possible, and that that's what he'd keep thinking about. 471 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 3: And as soon as he started getting oh yeah, that's right, 472 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 3: it's hard. Be so happy afterwards, but it's hard right now, 473 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 3: he'd go, hold on, stop that that's the one way 474 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 3: of thinking about this. What about light and easy? And 475 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 3: one of the things he did in his ritual is 476 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 3: he went and bought a pair of the Nike shoes 477 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 3: that were used in the the very famous now two 478 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 3: hour marathon. You know, they make big headlines around the 479 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 3: world to get the first person who ever ran a 480 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 3: marathon under two hours. And he was wearing these particular 481 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 3: shoes they've created for him, and you know, they are, 482 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 3: of course light and easy, They're as light as possible, 483 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 3: and he wore those every day that he wrote as 484 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 3: a symbolic reminder to reinforce this new soundtrack not miserable 485 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 3: and you know, blood, sweat and tears to get this done. 486 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 3: Light and easy. And so you know, I'm not saying 487 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 3: you have to go buy those shoes. I've never done that, 488 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 3: but I've enjoyed the mantra the soundtrack light and easy. 489 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: It reminds me of what you wrote about talking about 490 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: what are the minimum steps required for completion? 491 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: And I really loved that concept. 492 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: Are you able to talk about, like how you've applied 493 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: that idea with processes in your work life? 494 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, just to set that up just for 495 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 3: a second. You can. There's all sorts of examples of 496 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 3: this in business. But I interviewed Mike Evangelist, who that's 497 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 3: his real name, but he worked at a DVD burning company, 498 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 3: and this was when DVD burning was brand new by 499 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 3: one of these machines that cost thirty five thousand dollars. 500 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 3: The manual alone was a thousand pages long. You can imagine. 501 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 3: And Apple comes along and says, well, we'd like to 502 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 3: buy that because we want the software that you've built, 503 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 3: and we've got to put that standard on the new Mac. 504 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 3: So they're given a couple of weeks to prepare a 505 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 3: slim lined streamlined I think as the term. I'm looking 506 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 3: for version of what they've had before. And they just 507 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 3: keep stripping this away. That's stripping away and stripping away, 508 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 3: and they're so proud of what they've been able to 509 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 3: do in a couple of weeks. And they're ready for 510 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 3: the presentation to Steve Jobs. And he comes into the 511 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 3: room and before they get to the presentation, he walks 512 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 3: up to the whiteboard and he draws the rectangle and 513 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 3: he draws this little you know, square within it that 514 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 3: says burn. And he says, this is the app we're 515 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 3: going to build. You just draw, take what you want 516 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 3: to burn, you put it here, and then you click 517 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 3: that button. That's the whole app. And as soon as 518 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 3: he did that, they all felt embarrassed about the deck 519 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 3: that they'd prepared. They never shared the presentation because compared 520 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 3: to what he'd just shown, it looked so complex. There 521 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 3: was so many steps and pieces to it. And that 522 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 3: was when he learned what he thought was a really 523 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 3: sort of lifelong valuable lesson, which is that Steve Jobs 524 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 3: was starting with zero. It wasn't taking complexity and whittling 525 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 3: it down. He was starting with zero and saying, you know, 526 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 3: can I achieve it in one step? 527 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: You know? 528 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 3: And if not one, can I do it in two steps? 529 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 3: But that's the idea. And so from that the goal is, 530 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 3: can you solve a problem entirely by having in a 531 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 3: one step thing? Can we remove the steps entirely instead 532 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 3: of streamlining your process, you're saying, let's start from zero. 533 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 3: Can we do the whole thing in one step? So 534 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 3: that's the principle, a particular way to approach simplification, it 535 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 3: says Agile talks about it in the manif Agile manifesto. 536 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 3: It's to maximize the steps not taken. If you can 537 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 3: do this, you start to remove from yourself the need. 538 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 3: No matter how easiest step is, it's still harder than 539 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 3: taking no step. In fact, when I was first starting 540 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 3: in the podcast, I remember the team, that production team 541 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 3: sent me a list of instructions that I could send 542 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 3: to guests, and there's like, you know, fifteen steps to it. 543 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 3: I remember reading it myself just going, oh my goodness, 544 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 3: that is overwhelming number of steps. I just thought, there's 545 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 3: no way I can send this out to guests. So 546 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 3: it's just too much for them to handle if I 547 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 3: can't even read it. And so I said, okay, what 548 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 3: you know, start from zero was the minimum number of 549 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 3: steps someone would need to take to chat with me 550 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 3: on Zencaster. And once I had the answer, the process 551 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 3: was literally and what I sent to people and said 552 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 3: of these fifteen steps was one click on the link 553 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 3: that I'm going to email you before the interview. Two 554 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 3: I'll start and end the recording it. So all you 555 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 3: need to do is chat. That was the instruction, And 556 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 3: so it's a very liberating question to ask, like just okay, 557 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 3: how can we start from zero? How can we do 558 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 3: this at the minimum number of steps. You start to 559 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 3: realize all the stuff that other people think needs to happen, 560 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 3: including yourself in the past, don't need to happen. 561 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 2: That's awesome. Now time has flown, Greg, and I need 562 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: to release you to the world. 563 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: So I have one final question for people that want 564 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: to learn more about you and get their hands on Effortless, 565 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: which I highly recommend, such a great book as well 566 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: as Essentialism. I still remember when I read that, I 567 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: was actually traveling in New York, and I have such 568 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: a clear memory of reading that book and fundamentally shifted 569 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: my thinking on many things. So how can people consume 570 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: more of what you're doing? 571 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 3: Greg Well, I love that you just shared that about essentialism. 572 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 3: These really go together, right. This is like the Paul 573 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 3: McCartney and John Lennon, but both of those artists created 574 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 3: music separately, but it was the magic happened when they 575 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 3: went together. And you know, essentialism is about one question 576 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 3: is what's essential? You know what is essential and if 577 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 3: it's not essential, don't even do it effortless? Says Okay, 578 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 3: how can you take that the essential few and make 579 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 3: those essential few things effortless? And so it's together that 580 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 3: they really I think that the magic can happen. You know, 581 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 3: I would recommend that people come to essentialism dot com. 582 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 3: There's a twenty one day challenge people can take there 583 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 3: which takes you know, the essential things and breaks them 584 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 3: down into small micro adjustments that make this easier to 585 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 3: do what matters most. There's the What's Essential podcast. I 586 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 3: just love for your listeners to subscribe to What's essentral 587 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 3: podcast if they've enjoyed this conversation and you know, come 588 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 3: join the party there. And beyond that, I would just 589 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 3: encourage people to maybe maybe listen to the audiobook version 590 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 3: of Effortless so that they can kind of get a 591 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 3: quick overview of the of the whole arc of the 592 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 3: book and the design of it. And those are a 593 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 3: few options for people. 594 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 2: Amazing. I will link to all that in the show notes. Greg. 595 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: It has been an absolute joy and privilege chatting to 596 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 1: you and also getting your advice on my book as well. 597 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: I was very appreciated, so thank you. 598 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 3: So looking forward to the book when it comes out, 599 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 3: and it's been a pleasure be with you, Ammpha, thank you. 600 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 2: Hello there. That is it for today's show. 601 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: If you are enjoying How I Work, make sure you've 602 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: hit subscribe or follow wherever you're listening to this podcast from, 603 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,720 Speaker 1: because next week I've got Maggie. 604 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 2: Beer on the show and she is awesome. 605 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: We talk all about where her best ideas come from 606 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: through to how to roast the perfect chicken. How I 607 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventing, with production support from Dead 608 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: Set Studios, and a massive thank you to Martin Nimba 609 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: who did the audio mix and makes everything. 610 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 2: Sound better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.