Speaker 1: Hello, my name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud yr
Speaker 1: the Order, Kerney Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And before
Speaker 1: we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I
Speaker 1: would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land
Speaker 1: of which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country,
Speaker 1: acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming
Speaker 1: through as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing
Speaker 1: and the storytelling of you to make a difference for
Speaker 1: today and lasting impact for tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Let's get into it.
Speaker 3: She's on the Money, She's on the Money.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast
Speaker 2: for millennials who want to sort out their career. Today
Speaker 2: is a little bit of a different episode. I'm joined
Speaker 2: by Misress Gricci. Hello, but i also have the team
Speaker 2: from my millennial money or should I say more specifically,
Speaker 2: the sort your Career team out, Shelley Johnson and unfortunately Glenn.
Speaker 4: Jack Yes, welcome Glenn, Hey, thanks for having us.
Speaker 2: I'm so excited to have you, Shelley, Glenn, I'm flattered
Speaker 2: that you made the time.
Speaker 5: I'm not the career expert. I'm just for you put
Speaker 5: your name on the book.
Speaker 4: Well, how much as a percentage of the book, how
Speaker 4: much do you reckon you wrote of it?
Speaker 5: Forty five?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all right, Joe, did you let him put
Speaker 2: his name on forty five percent of your own work?
Speaker 4: Well? Yes? And also there was this one night we
Speaker 4: were writing the book and Glenn was in there and
Speaker 4: I was in It would have been about eleven thirty
Speaker 4: at night, we're writing away. He's writing his section on
Speaker 4: mindset and I'm going through editing out.
Speaker 6: His ye like live Google, backspace.
Speaker 5: Your own chapters before you come and fix.
Speaker 2: My Yes, I don't know about fixed completely rewrite.
Speaker 5: Is it basically? So I'm just here for the hangs.
Speaker 2: Well, Shelle is here to celebrate the launch, which is
Speaker 2: kind of recent but like it's been around a little while.
Speaker 2: Your book sought your career out, which I am so
Speaker 2: excited about. I'm also really devastated. I actually called Maddie
Speaker 2: on the way here and was like, Hey, I forgot
Speaker 2: my book? Can you find another one? She's like, I
Speaker 2: do not have time to go and get it. So
Speaker 2: I couldn't even get it signed because do you know
Speaker 2: who signed my book? Glenn. I don't want Glenn's signature
Speaker 2: in my book. Now I've worked out that it was
Speaker 2: all your work. Shelley.
Speaker 4: Well, you know what, I'll send you a coffee that
Speaker 4: just has my name on it.
Speaker 2: I'll dispose of the other one appropriately. I love that.
Speaker 2: But we're here because our community is obsessed with career
Speaker 2: questions at the moment, and I feel like in this
Speaker 2: current environment, obviously careers are really hard. People are asking
Speaker 2: for pay rise, we're not getting them. We're feeling like
Speaker 2: our employer might be taking the mickey a little bit
Speaker 2: when it comes to work life balance. There are just
Speaker 2: so many career questions that She's on. The money has
Speaker 2: kind of pivoted a little bit, and we are addressing
Speaker 2: a lot of them. But who better to get than
Speaker 2: you shall to talk about career and answer a whole
Speaker 2: heap of questions from our community. But first things first,
Speaker 2: why do we trust you when it comes to career advice?
Speaker 2: Like what if you've got a good career or something?
Speaker 4: That is a really good question. I don't think anyone's
Speaker 4: answering that question before, So why do you trust me?
Speaker 4: I've got two answers to this. The first answer is
Speaker 4: I've worke in HR for the last ten years, so
Speaker 4: I've seen the employer's side, and I think for many
Speaker 4: people when we're talking about careers, we don't understand what
Speaker 4: employers are looking for or the things that can make
Speaker 4: us stand out for an employer in order to get
Speaker 4: a promotion, to get a pay rise, to maybe change careers.
Speaker 4: So one of my things is taking all those secrets
Speaker 4: that are in HR and sharing them love. And the
Speaker 4: second thing that or may not make me credible is.
Speaker 2: That he wrote a book. Well, I wrote a book
Speaker 2: that makes you legit. I wrote like three of them,
Speaker 2: and now people are like, wow, she's an author, and
Speaker 2: that's what I hang my hat on. And you absolutely should. No,
Speaker 2: it makes no sense, but yeah, come up with something
Speaker 2: better than the book.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what was Well, I had a major career crisis.
Speaker 4: So I went through a career crisis. Right when Glenn
Speaker 4: called and said, hey, how are you? I was on
Speaker 4: the streets of Sydney. He calls me up, or I
Speaker 4: might have called you. I can't remember the context, but anyway,
Speaker 4: in Sydney he calls me and I said, hey, I've
Speaker 4: just quit my job. He's like, oh, right, what are
Speaker 4: you going to do now, and I'm.
Speaker 2: Like, that's very Glenn. Oh right, that's nice.
Speaker 4: Yeah, not much emphathiicy right now, Glenn. And I was like,
Speaker 4: I don't have anything planned, like I've got no other
Speaker 4: job to go to. But I just knew I wasn't
Speaker 4: in the stone space and I had to finish what
Speaker 4: I was doing and move out of that fairly quickly,
Speaker 4: and so I didn't have another job to go to.
Speaker 4: I was obviously quite stress It's a stressful position to
Speaker 4: be in. And Glenn go, you know what I reckon,
Speaker 4: we should.
Speaker 2: Do go on the boat that and we should write
Speaker 2: a careers book.
Speaker 4: And I was like, I can't write a career's book
Speaker 4: right now, like I'm unemployed.
Speaker 2: Like you've got a heap of time to write about it.
Speaker 4: Well, that's his logic. I was like, I can't, like
Speaker 4: I'm having my own career crisis. But I think what
Speaker 4: happened in that moment was, well, we got the book deal.
Speaker 4: Wiley came through and said let's do it, and we're like, okay, well,
Speaker 4: this is the right time to write it because you're
Speaker 4: going through the stuff that people need to hear about
Speaker 4: in their career.
Speaker 2: Raw and it's real and if you're going.
Speaker 4: Through a career crisis right now, maybe you've been made redundant,
Speaker 4: maybe you're having a tough time with toxic culture. Those
Speaker 4: things can be really painful. And for me, going through
Speaker 4: that process and then writing the book helped me to
Speaker 4: realize and have empathy for where people are at and
Speaker 4: how to get out of those moments and move forward
Speaker 4: and build a career that you love, which has been
Speaker 4: the case for me. And so I know that lots
Speaker 4: of people reading the book are having the same experience.
Speaker 2: I love that. I feel like, for once in his life,
Speaker 2: Glen was correct and that was really good idea.
Speaker 4: You are getting roasted.
Speaker 2: That's why we're here.
Speaker 5: They call me punchy because I'm a punching back.
Speaker 2: Bring good jokes. What did you ring? I feel like
Speaker 2: I always end up in trouble if I roasted Glenn,
Speaker 2: So just yeah, I always do. I get so always like, oh,
Speaker 2: Victoria is so mean to Glenn. I'm like, do you
Speaker 2: realize that this banter that you're hearing it might be offline?
Speaker 2: And both ways? Like stop bullying me? How about you
Speaker 2: start coming for Glenn? And how nasty pasty he is
Speaker 2: to me? Sometimes I feel like this is our friendship
Speaker 2: showing I do actually adore Glenn. I think he is great.
Speaker 2: We won't go too much into it because he already
Speaker 2: has a big enough ego.
Speaker 4: Do you think it's like a brother sister relationship.
Speaker 5: Dad mom and dad, mom and dad brother in front
Speaker 5: of the kids.
Speaker 2: We definitely do.
Speaker 5: We should answer some questions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's answer some questions, because earlier this week, Jess
Speaker 2: jumped into our Facebook group and said, Hey, we've got
Speaker 2: some really exciting guests coming into the studio to talk
Speaker 2: all about Korea. So we're kind of like clickbaiting it
Speaker 2: because we really wanted this to go well. But what
Speaker 2: we got from that are some killer questions. Jess, what
Speaker 2: is the first question that you want Shell and maybe
Speaker 2: Glenn to address?
Speaker 6: First?
Speaker 7: One I have comes from Imagen and it says I
Speaker 7: hear a lot about looking at what your role in
Speaker 7: another company pays as a technique for pay negotiations. I've
Speaker 7: looked on seek and on LinkedIn, but most roles don't
Speaker 7: disclose the salary. Are there websites where I can find
Speaker 7: this kind of information?
Speaker 4: Great question, jo said.
Speaker 6: I replied to that, I was like, that's a really
Speaker 6: good question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's cut and base that one as well.
Speaker 4: Get it. So there's a few things you can do,
Speaker 4: and yes, there are ways that you can get that
Speaker 4: salary data. It's a really helpful thing to understand where
Speaker 4: your current pay is in relation to roles externally. So
Speaker 4: I think this is a good thing for most of
Speaker 4: us to get an understanding of. So Hayes have some
Speaker 4: great salary data across a range of industries that's public accessible,
Speaker 4: so you download.
Speaker 2: About them all the time.
Speaker 4: How good are they get?
Speaker 2: They actually slid into my DMS the other week. Sorry,
Speaker 2: Hayes if you're listening to this, I haven't replied because
Speaker 2: I have ADHD and I forgot.
Speaker 4: You know, Hayes would be great to sponsor the podcast
Speaker 4: right post all my millennial career.
Speaker 2: All right, I'll slide back into their dms, so let
Speaker 2: them know. You guys are key.
Speaker 6: I see one podcast and I raise you.
Speaker 4: Three, so I would be getting access to that. The
Speaker 4: other thing you can do is jump on to a
Speaker 4: range of salary Survey does so Glassdoor pay Scale, and
Speaker 4: one of the things I encourage anyone to do is
Speaker 4: get a range of sources. So don't just go for
Speaker 4: one salary data set. Get a couple, and then you
Speaker 4: get to kind of get a sense of what does
Speaker 4: the market look like, what might be the high end
Speaker 4: of the market rate, and what might be the middle
Speaker 4: point and the low point, And then you get a
Speaker 4: full sense of what the salary range is and you
Speaker 4: can use that in your pay discussions. Now, there's a
Speaker 4: couple of things you need to consider when you're talking
Speaker 4: about pay with your employer, and one of them is, Okay,
Speaker 4: what's happening externally with the salary market, but what is
Speaker 4: my role and how does my role compare to those
Speaker 4: roles externally as well? Because it's not a cookie cutter exercise, No.
Speaker 2: It's so important. Actually, I love what you said about
Speaker 2: getting a few examples because I'm the queen of one
Speaker 2: and done. Like I'll go online and I'll find one
Speaker 2: answer and I'll be like tick. And that could shoot
Speaker 2: me in the foot for two reasons. One, it could
Speaker 2: be severely undervaluing me, but it also could give me
Speaker 2: an unrealistic expectation of what that role pays. So I
Speaker 2: think that getting a few is really important and actually
Speaker 2: puts you, I guess, back in the control seat. But like,
Speaker 2: for example, for your second part of that answer, you said,
Speaker 2: it's really important to understand the role. How many executive
Speaker 2: assistants are there. They all have different job responsibilities. Like
Speaker 2: some people might be an EA and it's much simpler.
Speaker 2: Some people might be an EA and it's an exec
Speaker 2: and you're managing a plothought of executives and it's so
Speaker 2: hands on that it's crazy. So I think it's important
Speaker 2: to look into the job description and you really understand it.
Speaker 2: Because how many times do you go, oh, I own
Speaker 2: you know, eighty K, My friend who's an EA that's
Speaker 2: the same job title earns one fifty, what the hell like?
Speaker 2: And then you feel like you're being disadvantage and that
Speaker 2: you're not being valued when in reality, your role could
Speaker 2: be valued at exactly what you're getting paid.
Speaker 4: The other thing to consider in that is what's the
Speaker 4: annual revenue of the business you're in, Because you might
Speaker 4: be an EA in a small business that's turning over
Speaker 4: ten million dollars a year and your salary might be
Speaker 4: you know, seventy five K. But if you're an EA
Speaker 4: in a five hundred million dollar organization, and it's much
Speaker 4: more complex because of the scale, because of the nature
Speaker 4: of the business, your salary might be at that higher end,
Speaker 4: and so there's a few different things we need to
Speaker 4: weigh up. And that's why I love getting multiple data
Speaker 4: sources for this type of thing. The other thing that
Speaker 4: I love and I would always recommend people do when
Speaker 4: they're having pay negotiations, come in and say to your boss, So, Vitoria,
Speaker 4: let's say you're my.
Speaker 2: Boss, I'd be a terrible boss for you, but yes.
Speaker 6: I'm lucky for anybody.
Speaker 4: Yeah, imagine I might be a terrible employee. So it
Speaker 4: goes both ways. So I would come in and say, hey,
Speaker 4: we'd love to talk to you about a pay increase.
Speaker 4: I'll give you one, thank you, one hundred grand increase.
Speaker 2: Please, Okay, no worries. I feel awkward and want to
Speaker 2: get out of this situation, like.
Speaker 5: Get me up.
Speaker 4: So I would come in with a range and say
Speaker 4: i'd be considering between seventy and seventy five is the
Speaker 4: increase that I'm kind of looking for. If you're currently
Speaker 4: on sixty five, you want to move up to seventy.
Speaker 4: So give them a range to work with rather than
Speaker 4: a set number. But I think when we go in
Speaker 4: with a number in mind, it's quite fixed, and that
Speaker 4: means that employer feels kind of cornered into well, I
Speaker 4: only have this one figure to work with. But if
Speaker 4: you go in with a salary range, that can really
Speaker 4: help them to feel like you're more open. If the
Speaker 4: business doesn't have the financial capacity to meet the higher
Speaker 4: end that you're after, well you can still get maybe
Speaker 4: that lower end. They're able to make that work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's really good advice. So I feel like
Speaker 2: the range is something that a lot of people don't
Speaker 2: consider because you did all that research right, and I
Speaker 2: deep dived into what I wanted and how I wanted it.
Speaker 2: I am set on seventy five. But going with the
Speaker 2: range kind of puts you back in the control seats,
Speaker 2: saying my role is actually between this which one are
Speaker 2: you going to choose? And I think that that's power
Speaker 2: move shell.
Speaker 8: Can you talk to positioning because you know, if I'm
Speaker 8: wearing an employer.
Speaker 2: Hat, which you do because you employer so many employer for.
Speaker 8: People, Yeah, it's a nice hat. I think it's just
Speaker 8: so important that you know. It's human nature. No one
Speaker 8: likes to get backed against the wall. We don't like
Speaker 8: showdowns or shakedowns or whatever. Talk to us about the approach.
Speaker 8: If image and did want to do some research and
Speaker 8: then chat with the employer, how does she position that
Speaker 8: in a non threatening you know, give me this or
Speaker 8: I'm going not none of that stuff, but like.
Speaker 4: A amazing Well, you actually speak to this so well
Speaker 4: in the book because you talk.
Speaker 2: About in his two percent contribution.
Speaker 4: It's amazing. The part on pay negotiations is so solid.
Speaker 4: There's a couple of things. You need to give your
Speaker 4: boss lead time. So an employer has so many things
Speaker 4: going on in their head that they have budgets that
Speaker 4: are set sometimes a year in advance, so we need
Speaker 4: to consider it from their perspective. So, if Glenn, you're
Speaker 4: my boss, sorry again, I would be meeting with you
Speaker 4: in my regular one on one. Let's say we catch
Speaker 4: up monthly for a regular one on one. I would
Speaker 4: say to you in that next one on one, Hey, Glenn,
Speaker 4: I've just been thinking about my role. I'd love to
Speaker 4: discuss my performance and maybe looking at a pay review.
Speaker 4: Could we schedule that in and our next one on one.
Speaker 4: So I'm giving you a long lead.
Speaker 2: Time because I'm out.
Speaker 4: And so that means that you then have a heads
Speaker 4: up of what I want to talk about and it's
Speaker 4: not just pay it's also your performance. Because if I'm
Speaker 4: just doing the bare minimum of my job, really I
Speaker 4: don't think I deserve a pay rise.
Speaker 2: I are, And it's so awkward having that conversation with
Speaker 2: himployees who were like, well, i've been here for twelve months.
Speaker 2: How would you counter that from I guess the perspective
Speaker 2: we're she's on the money and we want to empower
Speaker 2: our community, who are mostly employees. What if I'm of
Speaker 2: that mindset, well, well, I've been with the business for
Speaker 2: twelve months, so I'm probably due a pay rise. How
Speaker 2: do we have that conversation kindly to say, well, actually,
Speaker 2: you really need to look at your performance.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 8: I like to say, be careful what you wish for
Speaker 8: in like every circumstance of your life. But like I
Speaker 8: just imagine, like if someone wasn't self aware with their
Speaker 8: own role and they're like, oh, everyone else is getting
Speaker 8: a pay rise, I'm going to go and ask one.
Speaker 8: It could be like, well, I'm glad you've brought these
Speaker 8: up because you're not pulling away.
Speaker 2: It's happened to me before I've had to say that
Speaker 2: to an employee. They no longer work for me, and
Speaker 2: This was a long time ago, so good luck pinpointing
Speaker 2: that one. But it was a really uncomfortable conversation because
Speaker 2: if you've ever employed people, it's kind of like sometimes
Speaker 2: you just don't say something about something because you're like,
Speaker 2: can't be bothered with that argument. Done is better than perfect.
Speaker 2: At this point in time, I have so many competing priorities.
Speaker 2: I'm not interested in that conversation. They're getting it done.
Speaker 2: But when you do ask that question, Glenn and sit
Speaker 2: down and go, well, actually I want to pay rise,
Speaker 2: you kind of have to go, Okay, let's talk about
Speaker 2: your performance, because unfortunately I can't grant you that. But
Speaker 2: also like, while we're here, let's actually have a really
Speaker 2: good conversation about what my expectations are because you opened
Speaker 2: I guess the box of tricks, and now we need
Speaker 2: to have that conversation because right now you're not meeting
Speaker 2: expectations and I have, you know, maybe been a little
Speaker 2: bit slack and letting it slide. But we need to
Speaker 2: be on the same page. And the fact that you're
Speaker 2: asking for a pay rise means to me that you
Speaker 2: can't see that. And I thought that in your position
Speaker 2: you might be able to see that things weren't meeting expectation,
Speaker 2: and by you asking me, it's telling me you really don't.
Speaker 2: So I need to help you through this, and it's
Speaker 2: very uncomfortable. I think that is such a good point.
Speaker 4: Both of your raised this idea of if you want
Speaker 4: to pay rise, really you need to be exceeding the
Speaker 4: expectations of your role. So you're being paid for a
Speaker 4: role that's got a dollar figure signed to it based
Speaker 4: on the value that that role delivers. And so if
Speaker 4: you want to achieve let's say you're after a ten
Speaker 4: k pay rise, we would need to be able to
Speaker 4: show how are you delivering over that ten k in
Speaker 4: value to the business. If you can demonstrate that, it's
Speaker 4: a no brainer for the business because they're like, it
Speaker 4: costs me to go and rehire you if you were
Speaker 4: to leave. I want to keep my good people. So yeah, cool,
Speaker 4: let's have that conversation. But we need to be able
Speaker 4: to demonstrate not just what the external salary kind of
Speaker 4: market is doing. We need to demonstrate how am I
Speaker 4: delivering value in this business so that your business case
Speaker 4: is strong and it's a no brainer for the employer.
Speaker 4: But to Glenn's point, if you come in and Hey,
Speaker 4: three months ago, you've got a written warning, probably not
Speaker 4: a good time to ask for a pay rise.
Speaker 2: Right read the room.
Speaker 8: I think it does kind of, And you know, we
Speaker 8: could probably move on because there's a good question here
Speaker 8: from Live about CVS and image, and we will send
Speaker 8: you a copy of the book Sort your Money Out.
Speaker 2: That's Glenn's marketing strategy. Everybody who gets their question answered
Speaker 2: on the show today, we're going to send you one
Speaker 2: of Glenn's books because apparently okay, but you're trying to own.
Speaker 5: This, I'm just giving away books.
Speaker 4: Anyone who wants to learn about pay needs to read
Speaker 4: your chapter.
Speaker 5: But all I was going to say is like the
Speaker 5: question about because we said all the time people ask
Speaker 5: like I'm in an award role or I'm in a
Speaker 5: pay band with the government.
Speaker 8: The question is it like it may transition to a
Speaker 8: career question, not a job question, because there could be
Speaker 8: roles where the employer or the company just can't pay
Speaker 8: extra for that position and now it's just a.
Speaker 5: You've outgrown them career.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was literally about to say the same thing, Jess.
Speaker 2: And it's not a bad thing for you to outgrow
Speaker 2: a role. Sometimes you've got everything out of that role
Speaker 2: and you've reached the top and there's.
Speaker 5: Lead with grace and yeah, it's all awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that makes me uncomfortable, So I don't really
Speaker 2: want to do that. And the easier thing is to
Speaker 2: ask for a pay rise and then be a bit
Speaker 2: salty that I'm not getting it. And sometimes the cold
Speaker 2: hard truth of well, actually, for you to get that
Speaker 2: pay rise, you actually need to leave is the reality.
Speaker 2: And it sucks because sometimes you love the culture and
Speaker 2: you love the business and it makes so much sense
Speaker 2: and it aligns to your goals, but it's not serving
Speaker 2: you in the way that you're telling me it needs to.
Speaker 2: So sometimes you do have to move on speaking.
Speaker 7: Which moving on that great question that lives sent through says,
Speaker 7: would it be great to know more tips and tricks
Speaker 7: on how to make your application look good enough to
Speaker 7: get interviews. I've discovered, particularly as you try to move
Speaker 7: up in your career, application cevs and cover letters are
Speaker 7: often laid out differently or presented differently, and I feel
Speaker 7: like I fall shot on paper And I'm so curious
Speaker 7: to hear your answer, because I've heard very conflicting opinions
Speaker 7: on whether or not the visual of those things matters.
Speaker 2: I would just send them a picture of your cat,
Speaker 2: and that's very like the spot.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's very like to work.
Speaker 2: In fact, ask Annalisa what we spoke about in her
Speaker 2: first interview. It was her cat and I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: you are my people come this way? Would you like
Speaker 2: the job of producer hied it? I mean, we also
Speaker 2: like to CV and she's actually incredibly talented. But that's
Speaker 2: not the point, is it.
Speaker 4: Well, that's the values alignment. Oh yes, So a couple
Speaker 4: of things visually. Let's talk about that first, because that's
Speaker 4: what you're interesting. Yeah. So I think there's a couple
Speaker 4: of great designs on like Etsy that are simple, that
Speaker 4: are visually beautiful, and I think you can get them.
Speaker 2: They're like really cheap, they're like a couple of bucks usually.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I personally think you should find something that
Speaker 4: reflects your personality. So if you want to show up
Speaker 4: with a bit of personality, that's to me really good.
Speaker 4: There is some things visually that the recruiter or the
Speaker 4: hiring manager or HR person want to see. It needs
Speaker 4: to be simple, so simple enough to read through quickly.
Speaker 4: Because if you imagine a recruiter or HR are looking
Speaker 4: at this for possibly one minute. They're doing the super
Speaker 4: quick scan and they're trying to shortlist. So your goal
Speaker 4: is get yourself onto the yes or the maybe pile.
Speaker 4: So keep your CV and your cover letter clear and concise.
Speaker 4: This is the biggest part. I read an application the
Speaker 4: other day of someone who had eight pages.
Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, as I please.
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, I'm.
Speaker 2: Not going to go through that. But that also tells
Speaker 2: me that you don't know how to clarify information and really,
Speaker 2: I guess summarize it down, which to me is a
Speaker 2: very important skill totally.
Speaker 4: So we want it to be really clear, concise, and
Speaker 4: specific to that employer. And that's the big one. I
Speaker 4: don't like the copy paste applications. I like when people
Speaker 4: have done it where they've tailored it to the actual business.
Speaker 4: So their cover letters should be tailored to the business.
Speaker 4: Talk about the business values in your cover letter. If
Speaker 4: you google them, you look on their website and it
Speaker 4: says one of their values is integrity. Talk about that,
Speaker 4: talk about how you align with that, and that can
Speaker 4: really make you stand out from everyone else. I also
Speaker 4: think you should show a little bit of personality. That's
Speaker 4: just my preference. I like that people come in and
Speaker 4: talk about what makes them stand out.
Speaker 2: I feel like I look as an employer for a
Speaker 2: few different things, but it's not really what I'm looking for, right,
Speaker 2: It's what I'm seeing and going absolutely no. Like if
Speaker 2: in the job description I've said address the cover letter too,
Speaker 2: I would expect that to be followed. And if you
Speaker 2: haven't followed it and you've just put a to whom
Speaker 2: it may concern, I'm like, cool, So you don't have
Speaker 2: good attention to detail. If I've asked you to attach
Speaker 2: a cover letter and a resume and you only attach
Speaker 2: your resume and don't bother with a cover letter, I'm like, cool,
Speaker 2: you don't have good attention to detail and you haven't
Speaker 2: followed the process that I've asked you to follow. To me,
Speaker 2: those are really quick ways for me to just like
Speaker 2: wipe your resume off the table because you haven't listened
Speaker 2: and I need someone who follows attention to detail. If
Speaker 2: you're listening to this podcast as well, shall I do
Speaker 2: something real cheeky in my life? You're gonna give it away,
Speaker 2: I'll do it because if you've listened this far, then
Speaker 2: I feel like you deserve to know. Sorry, So in
Speaker 2: my job descriptions. If I'm like advertising on LinkedIn, and
Speaker 2: you can go find this literally right now, because I
Speaker 2: am advertising at the moment for a few roles. Halfway through,
Speaker 2: it will explain in the about you section, it'll be like,
Speaker 2: you have a high attention to detail this that the other.
Speaker 2: Then it will say you understand that to apply for
Speaker 2: this job, you have to use the email that's at
Speaker 2: the bottom of this advertisement and address it to Victoria
Speaker 2: and send an email directly, including a cover letter and
Speaker 2: this and that and whatever I'm asking for. Like recently,
Speaker 2: I've been hiring a copywriter, so I asked for a
Speaker 2: cover letter, a resume, and a portfolio of work, and
Speaker 2: then at the bottom I put my email. If you
Speaker 2: apply directly on LinkedIn, I don't even look at it
Speaker 2: because you did not follow the directions. And I mean,
Speaker 2: that's I guess, a very entitled way to recruit. But
Speaker 2: Glenn will be the same when we recruit. Because we're
Speaker 2: in media and because we are I guess so visible,
Speaker 2: we do get a high volume of applicants. And to me,
Speaker 2: that's a really easy way to go. I've already cut
Speaker 2: it in half, and I feel like that's real cheeky
Speaker 2: and I shouldn't have admitted that, But I love that.
Speaker 4: I love that. I think a lot of organizations who
Speaker 4: get a high volume of applications have a couple of
Speaker 4: little hoops that they want you to jump through and
Speaker 4: show that you've done and it's exactly what you said, Hi, Victoria.
Speaker 4: I don't like when people are like, dear hiring manager.
Speaker 4: I'm just like, that's a cut and copy cover letter.
Speaker 2: Don't like it, Yeah, unless there's absolutely no information provided,
Speaker 2: in which case it would be appropriate to do that. Like,
Speaker 2: I just think if you know that you're applying to
Speaker 2: my millennial money to work with Glenn and shall you
Speaker 2: know their names?
Speaker 5: You know the trick wire like I call them the
Speaker 5: truth wires.
Speaker 2: You've got them to I've never had an original experience.
Speaker 5: I thought you must have good England skills.
Speaker 8: No cover letter. I don't even open. I don't actually care.
Speaker 8: And then if people mention I've got good England, it's like, yeah, you.
Speaker 4: Get me, you are my people.
Speaker 2: I did it in my copywriting job. I put an
Speaker 2: error on purpose and then a few people mentioned it.
Speaker 2: I was like, ah, because they're like I also have
Speaker 2: really good attention to detail. I don't know if it
Speaker 2: was you trying to trip us up or you're trying
Speaker 2: to make us show that we have a good attention
Speaker 2: to detail. But you spelt this wrong and I was like, hey,
Speaker 2: so smart that. Otherwise all the people that skipped that
Speaker 2: just thought I was really dumb. And that's okay. You
Speaker 2: think whatever you think, Glenn. What's another absolutely no go
Speaker 2: that comes up in a resume for you?
Speaker 8: Just high level like and I think it's knowing the
Speaker 8: organization that you're applying to, like I've only hired like
Speaker 8: my last round of hiring, I think there was forty
Speaker 8: five applications. I sat down with three people, and I
Speaker 8: sat down with them based off the cover letter only Yep. Agreed,
Speaker 8: I'm hiring a person, not a position. I love that
Speaker 8: and that's kind of the That's why we got to
Speaker 8: know your audience. And if it's the government and bureaucracy,
Speaker 8: sure it's probably going to be templated and you know different.
Speaker 8: But if it's small business. The ones who said dear
Speaker 8: hiring manager, it was that instant, Well, they don't listen
Speaker 8: to the show. I really want someone who gets what
Speaker 8: we do.
Speaker 4: The research part of it is really important. Do your research,
Speaker 4: get on their socials, get on their website, read their
Speaker 4: annual report, do as much research as you can. That's
Speaker 4: how you stand out. Add all that stuff into the
Speaker 4: cover letter and me like, look at me, I know
Speaker 4: your business because if you use their language, even how
Speaker 4: they speak, so you use quite colloquial language, I'd be
Speaker 4: mirroring that in my cover letter because then for you, Glenn,
Speaker 4: as the employer, you're looking at that going I feel
Speaker 4: like they know me.
Speaker 5: Oh.
Speaker 2: I could not agree with that more.
Speaker 8: And it's a bit weird to read because it's like, oh,
Speaker 8: they really know me and I don't know them.
Speaker 2: But it's exactly what you're looking for, right And with
Speaker 2: this copywriting role, I found the same to be absolutely
Speaker 2: true because I'm hiring someone that can be fun and
Speaker 2: a little bit like us, and like I'm hiring for
Speaker 2: tona voice and the idea that I'm even asked. Yes,
Speaker 2: she's been asking for this copywriter role for more than
Speaker 2: twelve months. I haven't let go yet of doing it
Speaker 2: all myself because I'm like, how will it sound like me?
Speaker 2: How will it sound like she's on the money if
Speaker 2: it's not me? And so this idea that people can
Speaker 2: show me that at the very start, I was like
Speaker 2: very drawn to a few people just because of that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, one other tip, don't be afraid to go a
Speaker 8: little bit further, Like it could be a little video
Speaker 8: like Hi, you know, I just wanted to say this
Speaker 8: is who I am, Like, it's not going to be appropriate.
Speaker 5: Job.
Speaker 6: That's what I did.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's doing that thing.
Speaker 8: You've just got to do what other people don't do
Speaker 8: one hundred percent, but to your comfort level.
Speaker 5: Like some people aren't like that, and I would. You're
Speaker 5: like Jess also.
Speaker 2: A fully edited, fully curated, and choreographed YouTube.
Speaker 6: Video, not a dance. I thought you're gonna say choreograph
Speaker 6: dance and I was like, I didn't.
Speaker 2: Do that, No, no she didn't. But it was properly
Speaker 2: edited and like I had a cover tile and literally
Speaker 2: every photoshop. But if you're not comfortable with that, absolutely
Speaker 2: don't do that, because that'll just show that you're not comfortable.
Speaker 8: But shell, if we go to the other side of
Speaker 8: the coin, and it is a role that is heavily
Speaker 8: corporate or government, we really want to get to the
Speaker 8: point with experience and actually ideally we're looking for xyzed
Speaker 8: just bam bam, bam, because you just want to get
Speaker 8: in the door.
Speaker 4: You've got to curate your experience. Because you only have
Speaker 4: two pages on your resume. Do not go over two pages.
Speaker 4: Keep it short and sharp, and curate your experience to
Speaker 4: what's relevant to that role. So you don't need to
Speaker 4: put everything in there, but make sure you're hitting on
Speaker 4: the core requirements that are expressed in that job.
Speaker 8: At Live will send you a book and in the
Speaker 8: book things a QR code with templates, cover.
Speaker 4: Letter, and resume.
Speaker 2: That's cool.
Speaker 7: Before we go to a really quick break, I have
Speaker 7: one more question that I really want to get everybody
Speaker 7: to weigh in on, because there's been a lot of
Speaker 7: discourse recently in the community of that word it do you.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, very fun. Victoria ruffled some feathers. So this
Speaker 7: question comes from Melissa. She said, when in an industry
Speaker 7: where pay can't be negotiated, let's say, for example, teaching,
Speaker 7: how can we make ourselves seem a step above others
Speaker 7: when looking for opportunities. I feel like these fields can
Speaker 7: seem quite limiting in regard to salary progression without having
Speaker 7: to increase qualifications. And this came off the back I
Speaker 7: think of the comment that VD made recently around pay
Speaker 7: rises and inflation and how if you're not getting a
Speaker 7: pay rise you're on the back foot.
Speaker 5: Which how are we talking about that today?
Speaker 2: We let Victoria blowing the Internet up and making them angry.
Speaker 2: I was saying to Jess, like, I know I did
Speaker 2: something because my dms are so nasty.
Speaker 7: Wow, it made some people angry, And I think there
Speaker 7: was a real sentiment I think from people who work
Speaker 7: in careers where they have maybe EBAs in place and
Speaker 7: things of that nature, where they're like, I don't even
Speaker 7: really get to negotiate. So I feel like Alissa's question
Speaker 7: is really relevant because there is a whole chunk of
Speaker 7: people who maybe aren't in a position like someone like
Speaker 7: me where you can go, oh, I feel like things
Speaker 7: are changing. Let's have a conversation about it. So what
Speaker 7: would you recommend for those kind of people?
Speaker 4: So you really need to think about your long term career.
Speaker 4: If you're a teacher or you're in nursing and you
Speaker 4: have a fixed level of increase, and once you get
Speaker 4: to the top of that after four years you maxed out,
Speaker 4: You've got to think, how can I increase my pay
Speaker 4: if that's what you want to do now, not everyone wants.
Speaker 5: To do that.
Speaker 4: But let's say your goal is to increase your pay.
Speaker 4: It's what Glenn said before. You need to find a
Speaker 4: way of changing your career or maybe you look for
Speaker 4: a management role. So in teaching, you might look for
Speaker 4: an assistant principal role, like what do I need to
Speaker 4: get to an assistant principal level? And you plan that out,
Speaker 4: and you might need to plan it out five years
Speaker 4: ahead to try and go, well, what are the skills
Speaker 4: that assistant principles have, what are the things that differentiate them?
Speaker 4: And therefore, what can I do now in the lead
Speaker 4: up to that to position myself to stand out. The
Speaker 4: other thing I'd say for anyone who's in this spot is.
Speaker 2: Talk to people who are.
Speaker 4: Further along and they're in the position that you want,
Speaker 4: or they're getting the equivalent pay that you want in
Speaker 4: your industry, and get their advice on what they did
Speaker 4: in their career that you can mirror. Because often we
Speaker 4: feel stuck when we're in that enterprise bargaining agreement kind
Speaker 4: of world where we've got this really fixed, rigid way
Speaker 4: of getting pay increases. But there are ways around it.
Speaker 4: And we interviewed for the book someone who is in
Speaker 4: nursing who told us about they went back. They did
Speaker 4: go back and study, they got their master's degree and
Speaker 4: then they ended up as a transition from a nurse
Speaker 4: to a nurse unit manager and they got quite a
Speaker 4: significant pay rise that came with their new expectations of
Speaker 4: the role. So that's some of the ways around it.
Speaker 4: And I mean, Glenn, what's your take, because you've got
Speaker 4: a really good perspective on this.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 8: I actually interviewed somebody who was a nurse and they
Speaker 8: actually did i think four days a week permanent and
Speaker 8: then one day a week as a casual in the pool.
Speaker 8: So by just being a little bit creative, they increase
Speaker 8: their salary.
Speaker 5: And you know, it's also nuanced.
Speaker 8: But I think it all comes down to, yeah, it's
Speaker 8: a career discussion, not a job discussion. And then secondly,
Speaker 8: depending on your life stages, if you love what you're doing,
Speaker 8: you know, I'll be really radical here because I heard
Speaker 8: about this example the other day. I know someone moving
Speaker 8: to Melbourne and they're going to be working four days
Speaker 8: a week with the government. It's the same paysation and
Speaker 8: it's with the Victorian government four days a week and
Speaker 8: it's the same salary as New Southwest Government five days a.
Speaker 5: Week in Melbourne did come back up.
Speaker 8: We got there and Melbourne rent and house prices a
Speaker 8: little bit more affordable than Sydney.
Speaker 2: Sydney's insane.
Speaker 5: So look that's a drastic measure as well.
Speaker 8: You might bring Location is a big I mean, I'm
Speaker 8: not going to pick up and leave my friends and family,
Speaker 8: but other people might be up for an experience with
Speaker 8: their career. Doesn't have to be forever. You might have
Speaker 8: to transfer to Upskill. All I would say is your
Speaker 8: career is not linear. Is that what you say?
Speaker 5: I say one of us, I don't know you. She
Speaker 5: added that talk about yeah, we don't.
Speaker 4: We've kind of got the idea of just blow up
Speaker 4: the career ladder. One of the guys on our podcast,
Speaker 4: Moment and your Career, Ben Carl's, he said, the career
Speaker 4: ladder is dead. It's a career jungle gym.
Speaker 6: Fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how just has been treating it?
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally like go across, fall off the jungle gym,
Speaker 4: like get back off the shell out.
Speaker 2: This podcast is over, just like the Alright, I have
Speaker 2: so many more questions for you guys, and we'll get
Speaker 2: to them right after this break all right, well you're back,
Speaker 2: and I feel like, Glenn, the one thing that we
Speaker 2: were missing on the flip side there was your advice
Speaker 2: that says, at the end of the day, if you
Speaker 2: don't like the pay, you can move careers. And I
Speaker 2: mean it's very dramatic advice to be like, well, if
Speaker 2: you don't like it, leave and that feels really rude.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, it's kind of like if
Speaker 2: you're signing up and I don't mean this in an
Speaker 2: awful way, and I think the teachers and nurses and
Speaker 2: everybody in those I guess provider type roles should be
Speaker 2: paid more. This is not the conversation for that right now.
Speaker 2: But if you're in a position where as you're saying before, Shelle,
Speaker 2: it's an eba role, you know what you're getting yourself
Speaker 2: into when you sign up to do that career and
Speaker 2: then you're deeply unhappy about it. Maybe that's not the
Speaker 2: career for you. Maybe we need to pivot it, Maybe
Speaker 2: we need to shake it on its head and go
Speaker 2: all right, well, maybe a full time tutoring role where
Speaker 2: you control what you charge and you control the narrative
Speaker 2: is going to work better for you. Maybe working in
Speaker 2: a different sector might work, and I know that that's
Speaker 2: not I guess the advice that a lot of people
Speaker 2: want from us because often what they want from us
Speaker 2: is the answer that they can go to their employer
Speaker 2: and be like, actually, you do have to pay me
Speaker 2: more for what I'm currently doing. Sadly that's not always
Speaker 2: the case though, right.
Speaker 8: I would say, just on that comment, like with all
Speaker 8: the financial principles that you teach, you know, if you
Speaker 8: keep out of consumer debt, have an emergency fund, you know,
Speaker 8: run a lean budget, do the best you can with
Speaker 8: what you've got. That gives you more options to change
Speaker 8: if you don't like it in the medium or to
Speaker 8: the long term.
Speaker 5: Really, and also think a little bit differently.
Speaker 8: I interview to another lady on the show the other day,
Speaker 8: and this was awesome. She was in HR, like literally
Speaker 8: managing people in HR. She moved to the IT industry
Speaker 8: and is in HR software now so and she picked
Speaker 8: up fifty or sixty grand work from home like Flexible,
Speaker 8: Loving Life, and I'm just like, Yeah, this is what
Speaker 8: it's all about. And I just think, particularly you know,
Speaker 8: chapter one, Shell spends so much time on working your values,
Speaker 8: like what do you value? Because I like to say
Speaker 8: that it's two edged sword. You know, it's all rainbows
Speaker 8: and unicorns over here, and that's awesome. We want that.
Speaker 8: But on the other side, all the money in the
Speaker 8: world isn't going to keep you were a toxic workplace. Yeah,
Speaker 8: So it's not always about the money, but it comes
Speaker 8: to a point where it is. So I think it's
Speaker 8: just having, you know, good financial foundations behind you and
Speaker 8: if you're not right there now, hang in there and
Speaker 8: go okay. Over the next twelve months, I'm working on
Speaker 8: my emergency fund, I'm paying down debt because I'm going
Speaker 8: to make a career pivot.
Speaker 2: I think that's so important. It actually leads into a
Speaker 2: question from Dione, who's obviously going to get one of
Speaker 2: Glenn's books as well, and she asks, are there career
Speaker 2: counselors for adults? How do you find them? How much
Speaker 2: should you be paying, and what can we expect from them.
Speaker 2: I think that's such a good question to answer here
Speaker 2: because it kind of goes you know, Glenn, you were
Speaker 2: talking about pivoting, but how do we do that if
Speaker 2: we don't know what we're looking at it? We're overwhelmed
Speaker 2: and like care's counselor at school. That was really cool.
Speaker 2: Is that a thing for adults? Shell, please?
Speaker 4: It's so funny we had them at school because when
Speaker 4: we're at seventeen years old, we have no idea what
Speaker 4: we want to do. No, you know, we definitely need
Speaker 4: career counselors and career coaches later in life. There absolutely are.
Speaker 4: There's a lot on LinkedIn, so I'd encourage you to
Speaker 4: jump on LinkedIn search up career coach. You'll find a
Speaker 4: stack of people who do it. There's also I believe
Speaker 4: is it Badass Careers. She's in New Zealand, she does
Speaker 4: some cool stuff. There's some people out there doing some
Speaker 4: good work in this space, So jump on LinkedIn search
Speaker 4: career coach and you'll find good people. Pretty sure. It
Speaker 4: costs like around three point fiftyer session on average, that's
Speaker 4: my guess.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's pretty reasonable.
Speaker 7: I think to give you enough clarity to kind of
Speaker 7: go forward and do what you've got to do with
Speaker 7: your career and figure out where you're going. It's obviously
Speaker 7: not a small sum of money, but if you look
Speaker 7: at it as an investment in yourself and in your future,
Speaker 7: like maybe that's worth it for you.
Speaker 4: Well, if that career coach gets you a five grand
Speaker 4: pay rise.
Speaker 6: Super worth the money well spent.
Speaker 7: All right, I'm going to be a little bit selfish
Speaker 7: and ask some employee centric question. Thats going to steal
Speaker 7: the mic for a second, if that's okay. I want
Speaker 7: to start with a question from Zoe, and she said,
Speaker 7: my boss said to me recently, people get more work
Speaker 7: opportunities when you're in the office more, not so much
Speaker 7: when you work remotely.
Speaker 2: Thoughts on that comment, Oh, this is a banger.
Speaker 7: I feel like there's a lot of discourse again out
Speaker 7: there right now on this, and it does sometimes feel
Speaker 7: like employeers tend to lean one way and employees tend
Speaker 7: to lean the other.
Speaker 4: So I'm will guess what's your vibe.
Speaker 7: I think I'm a champion for flexible work. I always
Speaker 7: have been. I've worked in roles with literally zero flexibility,
Speaker 7: and I said post COVID never again, like if a
Speaker 7: role doesn't off me flexibility in the future, and I'm
Speaker 7: very thankful that right now mine does. But if a
Speaker 7: role didn't off me flexibility, I actually wouldn't take it
Speaker 7: at this point in my career. I don't think that
Speaker 7: it should be a reflection. I think that if you're
Speaker 7: working hard and doing what you need to do, if
Speaker 7: you're not pulling your weight, as you were saying earlier, Glenn,
Speaker 7: surely that's showing up like things aren't getting done, or
Speaker 7: things are being missed to deadlines aren't being met, like
Speaker 7: someone's seeing that you're not doing what you need to
Speaker 7: do even when you're not sitting.
Speaker 6: At a desk.
Speaker 7: But I do also think that there is that age
Speaker 7: old thing of sometimes the people who progress fastest or
Speaker 7: highest in a company or an industry are ones who
Speaker 7: are not doing so necessarily because.
Speaker 6: They're the best at their job. It's because they have
Speaker 6: built relationships with people. It's because they're a networker or
Speaker 6: a connector.
Speaker 7: They're providing values or vibes, if you will, in other ways.
Speaker 7: And so if you are working remotely, it's much harder
Speaker 7: for you to do that. But it's harp because they
Speaker 7: don't think that that necessarily should be the case.
Speaker 4: You know, you're so spot on two big things. Visibility matters,
Speaker 4: So your visibility in the organization matters, and that's why
Speaker 4: I think there's quite a lot of bias towards people
Speaker 4: working in the office. So leaders, it probably makes their
Speaker 4: job easier in some ways. And it's this whole thing
Speaker 4: of if I see you, you must be performing total crap, right,
Speaker 4: But there's an assumption around that of if you're there,
Speaker 4: you must be working hard. And I think that's why
Speaker 4: there's this bias and tendency towards let's get everyone back
Speaker 4: into the office, because we're all here, we all must
Speaker 4: be working. Yeah, And the thing I think we need
Speaker 4: to talk about more is, well, how do we be
Speaker 4: visible when we're remote working? How do I get proximity
Speaker 4: to the boss who's making decisions about promotions when I'm
Speaker 4: working remotely? So we need to be active on zoom, Like,
Speaker 4: if you're working remotely, turn your camera on.
Speaker 6: Don't be that person who never turns it on.
Speaker 4: So show up now. I know there's reasons sometimes maybe
Speaker 4: people don't turn the cameras on, and that's fine, But
Speaker 4: what I want you to do is how do I
Speaker 4: become more visible here? How do I stand out? And yes,
Speaker 4: going into the office kind of helps you do that.
Speaker 4: I'm a big, big believer in full time remote work,
Speaker 4: like I work remotely full time or for it, but
Speaker 4: I understand why leaders want people to come back into
Speaker 4: the office. So there's two sides to that coin. I
Speaker 4: guess my main thing is how do you, to your point, Jess,
Speaker 4: build relationships, build equity in that business socially build those
Speaker 4: networks because they're the things that are going to help
Speaker 4: you when that promotion opportunity comes up. You want to
Speaker 4: be front of mind for the decision maker. And the
Speaker 4: way that you do that is you've been visible, You've
Speaker 4: demonstrated your credibility, and those things together mean that you
Speaker 4: land the job.
Speaker 8: I think as well, the craft or the trade or
Speaker 8: the occupation that you do that needs to take care
Speaker 8: of itself, Like that's the hygiene factor. You're really good
Speaker 8: at your job. Yeah, and that whole front of mind thing.
Speaker 8: If it is a remote team, the front of mind
Speaker 8: stuff will probably more be happening on the social side, like, hey,
Speaker 8: we all work remote here. I reckon at least once
Speaker 8: every two weeks. We just come into the city. Whoever
Speaker 8: can have a coffee. I think the being noticing it
Speaker 8: doesn't have to be work noticed, it can be social. Yeah,
Speaker 8: because the hygiene factory is that you've good at your job.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I agree, Like it should just be a given.
Speaker 7: How do you manage it? Because your team is pretty
Speaker 7: much entirely remote and obviously you're on the employer side, like, yeah.
Speaker 8: So I've made the call that at least twice a
Speaker 8: year we come together.
Speaker 6: I love that.
Speaker 8: Every Thursday afternoon, because we do a four day work week,
Speaker 8: we do our afternoon chat. We call it two good
Speaker 8: Things and everyone goes around and says, what are two
Speaker 8: good things that have happened this week that are in
Speaker 8: line with one of our values and why so we
Speaker 8: do that and then yeah, we do a mid year
Speaker 8: together and then a Christmas party together. Yeah, increact because
Speaker 8: it is expensive to fly everyone into gather.
Speaker 7: They're around the country and not all in the same
Speaker 7: state where you can kind of all get on a
Speaker 7: train or get in a car.
Speaker 8: It definitely would be But I honestly don't think sometimes
Speaker 8: the fact that you're a remote worker, like the boss
Speaker 8: that said that to the questioner, you can be present
Speaker 8: and be a remote team and get those opportunities.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I like that, changing the old school mindset. Next,
Speaker 7: I've got one from Melanie who said, when should I
Speaker 7: move on from a job when I'm not learning more,
Speaker 7: when I can't get any more pay rises, et cetera.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great question. I've been thinking heaps lately,
Speaker 4: Jess about this idea of grit or quit, Like when
Speaker 4: do you like stick it out and show some grit
Speaker 4: and stay with an employer and when do you quit?
Speaker 4: Because it's a really hard thing to know. So there's
Speaker 4: a couple of signs that you need to stick it
Speaker 4: out and show some grit. The first thing would be
Speaker 4: if you haven't quite mastered the role. So if you
Speaker 4: haven't developed that sense of mastery in the role, I
Speaker 4: think there's more room for you to learn and grow.
Speaker 4: So do that sense check of how have I developed here?
Speaker 4: How have I grown? And the second thing would be
Speaker 4: do you enjoy it? Do you like the job? Because
Speaker 4: if you like the job, when you like the people
Speaker 4: you work with, and you're thinking maybe I need to
Speaker 4: make a career ladder move, well I challenge you on
Speaker 4: that because sometimes the whole thing with the career ladder
Speaker 4: makes us feel like we need to be climbing when
Speaker 4: really we're happy where we are, but there's this artificial
Speaker 4: pressure externally that makes us feel like we have to
Speaker 4: be getting the next promotion, learning the next pay rise.
Speaker 4: When if you enjoy the place that you work out,
Speaker 4: if you enjoy the people that you work with, if
Speaker 4: you've got a good To me, they're all massive ticks,
Speaker 4: and I would be really thinking whether you know you
Speaker 4: should be leaving if those are the things you've got.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 4: On the flip side, when should you quit a job.
Speaker 4: There's a few signs. Number one, you've stopped growing. So
Speaker 4: if you've stopped growing, you're not learning. Those are signs
Speaker 4: that it might be time to move on or find
Speaker 4: a different job. The other sign is if you're not
Speaker 4: getting considered for opportunities. So let's say you're putting your
Speaker 4: hand up for promotions maybe internally, and you keep getting
Speaker 4: knocked back. That's a signal that maybe there isn't that
Speaker 4: room for you to progress there and in which case
Speaker 4: maybe a move externally is right. The other thing would
Speaker 4: be if it's a toxic culture. So signs of a
Speaker 4: toxic culture would be things like gaslighting, gossip, really a
Speaker 4: lot of ego deceptive behaviors. Any of those signs, those
Speaker 4: to me are things where you need to be waving
Speaker 4: the big red flag and going okay, if management don't
Speaker 4: want to hear the feedback on the culture, probably some
Speaker 4: signs that you need to move on.
Speaker 7: But Actually it's really nicely into the next question, which
Speaker 7: was from Analyse, which said, how do I navigate being
Speaker 7: overlooked as a young female. I'm often infantilized, underestimated, and
Speaker 7: uncredited and it's frustrating.
Speaker 5: That speaks to me about culture.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
Speaker 8: Yeah, because that's ridiculous. I mean, just on that last question,
Speaker 8: then Shell can answer an Lisa's question. I really think
Speaker 8: it's important. Like another one is like you're bored. Like
Speaker 8: I'm being bored lately. It's rotten. I'm doing other things to,
Speaker 8: you know, stimulate myself. But I think it's so important
Speaker 8: to run to something, not from something.
Speaker 6: I like that a lot.
Speaker 8: So really, you know, dig into the values. You know,
Speaker 8: chapter one of the book all about values. Go back
Speaker 8: to your bedrock.
Speaker 5: What do I value?
Speaker 8: They might not be in the place that could be
Speaker 8: making you not fit because you know, I'm an introvert
Speaker 8: and they want me to dance on the desk every day.
Speaker 5: Make sure you're just running to something, not from something.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is such good advice. I agree you should
Speaker 4: writ a book about that. So to an Lisa's question, yeah,
Speaker 4: you're right. Glenn speaks to culture sometimes I was talking
Speaker 4: to someone the other day. They work in construction industry,
Speaker 4: young female, and they had had some challenges I guess
Speaker 4: with this similar dynamic of not feeling heard in a
Speaker 4: very male dominated industry and feeling like there's a bit
Speaker 4: of condescension. And one of my I guess recommendations was
Speaker 4: sometimes we need to be quite overt in challenging behaviors
Speaker 4: that I think are not.
Speaker 6: Okay, call it out, sis, call it out.
Speaker 4: So I would be specific and go, hey, when you
Speaker 4: said that that made me feel like my opinion wasn't valued.
Speaker 4: Or the other day in that meeting, I noticed that
Speaker 4: you interrupted me, and I feel like my ideas aren't
Speaker 4: heard here. Can we talk about that? Yeah, because we
Speaker 4: need to challenge the behavior and often people haven't received
Speaker 4: that feedback. And I would encourage this person. If you're
Speaker 4: feeling condescended or like your opinion isn't valid because of
Speaker 4: your age, your voice matters and we want to hear you.
Speaker 4: And actually, organizations need to hear from their gen Z employees.
Speaker 4: They need to hear from these younger voices who have
Speaker 4: great perspective, who have fresh ideas and new insights. They
Speaker 4: need that and they're missing out by not hearing your perspective.
Speaker 4: Think we need to look at how do we present
Speaker 4: ideas in a way that sets them up to be received.
Speaker 4: So maybe watch in your organization for those social cues
Speaker 4: in meetings and see whose ideas get heard the most
Speaker 4: and why, and understand what are some of the dynamics
Speaker 4: that are going on. Just observe and see what that
Speaker 4: tells you about the culture, because that can give you
Speaker 4: insights into Okay, is it the way that I'm presenting
Speaker 4: the idea or is it simply that these people aren't
Speaker 4: going to hear me, in which case probably don't want
Speaker 4: to stay their long term.
Speaker 8: And I would say to all the you know, business
Speaker 8: owners that are listening, because you've got a lot of
Speaker 8: people that we do own businesses and employee people. A
Speaker 8: lot of the times, people who run businesses, we're just
Speaker 8: steamrollers by nature, right. And what I did was, you know,
Speaker 8: got Shell into facilitate a session with my team. And
Speaker 8: I was just one of the team.
Speaker 2: So I shut my trap, and you did.
Speaker 8: One of our employees. You know, they're meet quiet, and
Speaker 8: you know that person got to say some really gold
Speaker 8: stuff that might not have come out if Michael.
Speaker 6: Scott or they like, it can be intimidating.
Speaker 7: As an employee, it can definitely be intimidating raising things. Now,
Speaker 7: culture is no matter how supportive somebody.
Speaker 5: But if you've got a something and Shell can probably
Speaker 5: speak so. But like.
Speaker 8: You've got to slowly practice in your career to not
Speaker 8: one put up with crap and that takes a bit of.
Speaker 5: Time and courage and courage.
Speaker 8: And you know, the question I would say, if it
Speaker 8: is appropriate, can you talk with your boss even if
Speaker 8: it's over a coffee or go for a walk, so
Speaker 8: it's on mutual territory and go, hey, I got to
Speaker 8: ask you something really awkward, like is it just me?
Speaker 8: I don't know, Like we're not saying I don't know,
Speaker 8: I just communication and Shell, We've got.
Speaker 4: A really good episode that I point you to or
Speaker 4: my millennial career. It's having tough conversations with your boss.
Speaker 4: And so it's how do we do those conversations well
Speaker 4: upwards because they're challenging and we feel nervous to bring feedback.
Speaker 4: But again I'll say, your voice matters and we actually
Speaker 4: leaders need to hear this truth.
Speaker 8: So and the truth is, you know that questioner could
Speaker 8: work for some misogynists. Who doesn't you her and she
Speaker 8: needs to get out of there yesterday? Yeah, well that's also.
Speaker 6: It is absolutely a chance.
Speaker 7: And if you are a business owner and you do
Speaker 7: want to get someone out, Shallie's fantastic and very welcoming.
Speaker 7: So we'll have the link in the show notes so
Speaker 7: you can check out and reach out if that's maybe
Speaker 7: something you want to facilitate, like Glendid with his team.
Speaker 7: Before we head off, the last question I have, I
Speaker 7: think is going to kind of tie everything off in a.
Speaker 6: Nice little bow.
Speaker 7: It comes from Jasmine and she wants to know how
Speaker 7: have you, guys fostered positive team environments that motivate people
Speaker 7: to get the job done, want to turn up and
Speaker 7: want to contribute to the good team culture and have
Speaker 7: a little bit of fun. Do you do quizzes or trivia.
Speaker 6: In the mornings?
Speaker 7: Toolbox meetings, gratitude walls, What helps to make your team
Speaker 7: feel special and wonded?
Speaker 4: Okay, couple of things, and these are so basic that
Speaker 4: far out people don't do this. Number one give positive feedback. Yeah,
Speaker 4: for sure, you know what I keep thinking. Positive feedback
Speaker 4: is one of the most powerful forces. I can be
Speaker 4: quite cynical by nature. So I've had to learn this
Speaker 4: as a skill I reckon. In my early days of
Speaker 4: being a leader, I was the worst of this, Like
Speaker 4: I'd always be about what are all the things you
Speaker 4: need to fix? But really one of the things I've
Speaker 4: learned is we need to understand each other's strengths and
Speaker 4: we need to call them out and praise people for
Speaker 4: the good things that they've done. Ping pong tables don't care,
Speaker 4: beanbags don't give.
Speaker 5: A shit, but it's a cool startup.
Speaker 4: Honestly, no amount of pizza parties is going to fix
Speaker 4: the toxic culture. What will have a huge impact is
Speaker 4: if you find the strengths of your employees, you call
Speaker 4: them out, you encourage them on it. You call out
Speaker 4: your team's strengths. And the other thing that I would
Speaker 4: encourage you to do is have regular one on one
Speaker 4: catch ups. Regular one on one catch ups are one
Speaker 4: of my all time favorite things. That could just be
Speaker 4: fifteen minutes. Get to know people personally on your team.
Speaker 4: Don't think of it as a transactional relationship. The more
Speaker 4: relational equity you've invested into that role, the stronger the culture,
Speaker 4: the stronger the dynamic, the more you feel seen more
Speaker 4: they'll feel seen. The best thing ever.
Speaker 7: Yeah, if you feel like you know the people around you,
Speaker 7: you're more likely to like them and get on with
Speaker 7: them and relate with them better.
Speaker 6: It can be hard.
Speaker 7: Like I'm quite introverted, and I've worked in big office
Speaker 7: teams and spaces before, which I did not love. But
Speaker 7: I remember whenever you had someone that you both went
Speaker 7: for the same football team, or you both had the
Speaker 7: same hobby, or watch the same TV show and it's
Speaker 7: just something that had come up in an incidental conversation
Speaker 7: or it had to come up in a one on
Speaker 7: on with a manager, and then when you saw them
Speaker 7: during the week, be.
Speaker 6: Like, oh, just catch a new episode, like what did
Speaker 6: you think? Like I'm dying.
Speaker 7: It makes it feel like a little bit more than
Speaker 7: just I'm an employee and you're my boss, Like it
Speaker 7: gives you something that makes you feel connected.
Speaker 4: I guess the connection that's the point.
Speaker 8: Yeah, And I think Jasmine, she may be a team leader.
Speaker 8: I would say a couple of things bring the team
Speaker 8: on the journey. Yeah, like, hey, we want to make
Speaker 8: this a little bit more engaging. Let's have a catch
Speaker 8: up and let's all just put some ideas on what
Speaker 8: we can do, and everyone we can write them down
Speaker 8: anonymously one or two things will put them in a
Speaker 8: box or whatever, Like if everyone's like extrovert and party
Speaker 8: time awesome, just do all that. But I think it
Speaker 8: is just understanding your team getting that buy in. I
Speaker 8: know on my team there's someone who you could not
Speaker 8: praise that person enough publicly where someone else might.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I just think take your team with you.
Speaker 7: It's a relationship. Like even if you are an employee
Speaker 7: and yes, your job and yes it's paying the bills.
Speaker 7: Like ultimately, if you can feel like you enjoy what
Speaker 7: you do and if you feel like you have buying
Speaker 7: or you believe in what you're doing, I think that
Speaker 7: makes the experience more enjoyable for everybody.
Speaker 8: And I would just say to anyone that's still listening, like,
Speaker 8: we spend so much time at work and in our
Speaker 8: career and our job. If it's not ideal right now today,
Speaker 8: you might not be able to change your job, your career,
Speaker 8: your life tomorrow, but please take one step. And that
Speaker 8: could be just thinking, well, in three years time, would
Speaker 8: I be happy that I didn't put up with this
Speaker 8: crap and I started to look elsewhere? Or what advice
Speaker 8: would you give your best friend about your situation. Just
Speaker 8: let's start just thinking, because you know, all the financial stuff.
Speaker 8: It is tired, It is tired out there. Yeah, just
Speaker 8: always look back from a couple of years. So we're
Speaker 8: not having regrets and we're not you know, Oh, I's
Speaker 8: been it two years too long and I'm sick of this.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: There's that Daniel Pink quote that we talk about in
Speaker 4: the book, and it's such a nice way to round
Speaker 4: out this conversation. And it's the biggest regrets in life
Speaker 4: of the failues of boldness. So if you're thinking right now,
Speaker 4: I should make a change, I should make a change.
Speaker 4: And that's been something on your mind for ages. The
Speaker 4: biggest regrets aren't the things that we did do, the
Speaker 4: biggest regrets of the things we didn't do.
Speaker 2: Wow, guys, it has been an absolute pleasure. Shelle, thanks
Speaker 2: for joining us, Glenn, thanks for coming along.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Honestly, I could talk about career stuff all day, but
Speaker 2: as I always say, unfortunately that is all we have
Speaker 2: time for today. Please come back, Please come and hang
Speaker 2: out on our show again. I feel like career content
Speaker 2: is so important for our community to grow and learn
Speaker 2: and be better I guess in life, but also just
Speaker 2: in their careers, like you deserve to have a happy career.
Speaker 2: You deserve to not be stressed about things and not
Speaker 2: you know, lose sleep at night when you're stressed about
Speaker 2: having a conversation with your manager that you definitely shouldn't
Speaker 2: lose sleepover. So I think it's one so important. But Shelle,
Speaker 2: let's do a little shameless plug. You wrote arguably an
Speaker 2: entire book where I'm going to put my affiliate link
Speaker 2: to your book in my show notes so that I'm
Speaker 2: benefiting from this. So if anybody wants me the benefit
Speaker 2: of Shell and Glenn's book, that's how. But where can
Speaker 2: we find it? Where can we find more of you?
Speaker 4: So you can find the books or your career out
Speaker 4: wherever you get good books from. And you can find
Speaker 4: me on LinkedIn or go to our podcast, my Millennial
Speaker 4: Career and Instagram use yep bold side.
Speaker 6: I love following you guys, It's really helpful.
Speaker 4: You have the best shares. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2: We'll see you guys on Friday, but we'll see Glenn
Speaker 2: and Shell hopefully very soon. Bye bye. The advice shared
Speaker 2: on She's on the Money is general in nature and
Speaker 2: does not consider your individual circumstances. She's on the Money
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