WEBVTT - Should Australian Judges Work in Death Penalty Courts? 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:05.240 Welcome to Law the Podcast. I'm Lex Lazarie. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:06.240 I'm Greg Barnes. 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:10.280 So Greg, it's been a busy week in Victoria particularly. 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:13.360 Well, you know, it's not as bad as the UK 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.639 lex where they've had pretty class seven prime ministers in 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:19.840 ten years. That's true, it's actually counting up. We've only 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.959 had three in Victoria in the last twelve years, which 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.680 is by the standards these days, pretty good. 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.000 Yeah. Anyhow, we've got a new premiere and the first 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.800 thing he did in his press conference was to announce 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.960 the Royal Commission into the construction industry, and parallel with 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:39.800 that the appointment of a special prosecutor. 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:46.960 In my government, integrity will not be optional, whether in business, 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:52.640 politics or the union movement. There will be zero tolerance 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:58.160 for those that misuse their positions. My first action as 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:03.480 Premier well be to call a Royal Commission into the 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:04.520 construction sector. 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.080 So I'm sure people think that's a good thing, and 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:09.600 it probably is. But I don't know about you, but 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.400 my experience of Royal commissions is that they go on 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:14.960 for a very long time, they cost a very large 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.880 amount of money, and there are times when whatever they 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:19.440 find doesn't really come to anything. 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.759 Yeah, well, you've got experience like you did the Ambulance 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.960 Royal Commission over twenty years ago. Now, yes, that's right, 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:28.800 and of course you're involved in the costag and Royal Commission, 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:31.760 perhaps Australia's most famous. Yeah, Royal Commission. 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.520 I think that one was worthwhile. And what that commission 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.480 tells me is that this one, if they do it properly, 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.360 is going to be incredibly complex. Yeah, and we are 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:44.560 going to be sitting around for years waiting for something 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:46.120 to happen. And the question is what is it that 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.120 people want to see happen. Yeah, I presume they want 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:53.080 Daniel Andrews and Cindra Allen and the witness box being vilified. 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:56.640 Yeah. Well, I mean my problem with royal commissions and 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:01.800 I backs, etc. Iback's not as bad as IKAK is 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.440 that people think. I've had people say this to me, 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.320 what have they been charged with while they're giving evidence? 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:15.520 And in relation to IKAK in New South Wales they're guilty. Well, 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.440 there is no concept of guilt. There's a finding I 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:22.160 think you can make of corrupt conduct in New South Wales. 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:25.000 But on the other hand, I think this was inevitable. 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:29.120 I mean, just the nine newspapers the Age, Nick McKenzie. 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:35.960 It just never stopped, day after day of headlines and 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:39.440 I thought a royal commission was inevitable and she should 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.200 have done it, you know, just In Arellan should have 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:41.960 done it months ago. 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:44.960 I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Probably it's an 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:47.760 appropriate thing to do in the circumstances, given the allegations. 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.120 The Big Build in Victoria is a massive infrastructure scheme 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.280 largely financed by the public purse. It should be a 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:00.000 source of massive pride, especially for the Victorian labor Premier, 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.799 just Cinter Allen. Instead some massive scare, one of the 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:09.400 largest in Australian history, where gangland figures and other crooks 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:12.880 have ripped off billions of dollars from the taxpayer. 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.280 I think an outcome is a long way off, yeah. 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:18.920 I don't think people realize how far away an outcome is, yeah, 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:20.360 or how much difference to the outcome. 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.400 W What is it about building unions? You know the 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:26.880 cfmu's predecessor, Yeah, it was the BLF, which you had 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:31.880 something just for those who are much younger than us, 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:36.400 which is just about everyone. The BLF, the Builders Labors Federation, 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.800 was a union very militant union in around Australia, but 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:44.080 particularly in Victoria, led by a very colorful character called 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:49.400 Norm Gallagher, and it used to be it was, you know, 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.560 a rogue union, and the state government in Victoria and 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.480 the federal government went after at a variety of levels. 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.000 But even that, if you look at that, that took years. 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.040 I wound up connected with it because I was assisting 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:07.200 a man who was designated by the Cane government I 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:10.840 think as the custodian of the bolf's assets, because the 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.840 government seized the bolif's assets and then we had to 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:15.200 try to work out what to do with them or 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:19.680 distribute them to the membership, and we're very unpopular. When 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:21.719 it came to the union, didn't they turn up on 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:23.880 your door? They turned up on the doorstep. I looked 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.320 out the window one day and saw Channel ten parked 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.440 out the front, and the police officer it was assisting 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.160 said the union will be here soon, and sure enough 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.360 they turned up, with John Cummins leading the change. 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:36.960 John Cummons was one of their leaders. 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.280 They came into the building and John Cummins and I 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.760 had a very cordial discussion on national television about what 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:44.400 we were doing. 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.840 That's gold. It's fantastic now producer Matthew would tell us 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:48.800 that is gold. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:55.440 Is that right, Matte, Yeah, yeah, that's my case phrase. Anyhow, 0:04:55.520 --> 0:05:00.400 it was they were exciting times. But yeah, all those 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.240 royal commissions, anything to do with the BLF or the 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.320 c fm EU, they're going to be complicated, complicated and 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.040 it's going to take a long time. Well we've already 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:10.320 seen with the c fm EU. There was the appointment 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:15.400 of Mark Irving, who's a barrister by the Commonwealth Government 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:17.920 I think in relation to the c f U, and 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.320 he had two heart attacks in the job, you know, 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:22.440 I mean it really took it. 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:27.440 Out of him. But the CFMU has been, you know, 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:30.360 the most high profile union in Australia for a long 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.840 time for not always the right reason. Should we say that? 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:44.240 So it's going to be watch this space, all right, 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.040 Well let's can I we move on to a pit 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:46.839 issue of mine? 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.520 Why not? Lex? I mean, it's your show, lex I 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:50.160 just turn up. 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:54.000 Everywhere just a humble podcast or employee I think the 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.200 real employees. Does I mean we're making money? I don't 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.800 not yet, I don't think so. I made a speech 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:03.480 at the cast and Center for Human Rights about it 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:07.680 was really to do with judges. And I made a 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:10.800 speech at the Bali the Clan conference about judges sticking 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.000 up for them, but this is not so much sticking 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.760 up for them. So, as you know, I've been a 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.960 long time opponent of the death penalty, and in particular 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.760 the death penalty in Singapore since two thousand and two 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.680 when our client Van Uen was arrested and then executed 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.839 in two thousand and five. And I've been very critical 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.760 of the process, very critical of the way the system 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.960 works in Singapore, the unfairness of it. And of course 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:40.520 the death penalty in Singapore for drug offending is mandatory 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:44.400 over fifteen grams in relation to heroin, and that's the 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:47.080 fault of the government. But the court imposes the sentences, 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.440 and it's a very chilling situation to sit in a 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:54.000 court and see your client sentenced to death by a 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.760 judge who simply shrugs his shoulders and says, I have 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.760 no choice. The penalty is death and then walks off 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:04.599 the ba. Since World War Two, Singapore has executed something 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.440 close to six hundred people. Well that's a lot of people. 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.600 So the number of executions in Singapore now as of 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.920 two weeks ago is now fifteen for the year. They 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.560 are the only country, only one of four countries that 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:23.160 executes people for drug offending. The others are Qaight, China, 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:28.400 a couple of other countries. So the court, as you 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:32.200 would expect, it's not unlike our court system has a 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.440 Court of Appeal, has a High Court, has a General 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:39.160 Division and an appellate division. And there's this other division 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.680 of the Singapore Supreme Court called the International Commercial Court, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.720 which has a number of international judges. And the judges 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.480 on that court sit and hear commercial cases, either sitting 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:55.520 as arbitrators or as judges as at first instance. Now 0:07:55.640 --> 0:08:01.120 on that court there are five judges. You are Australian 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:07.840 Justice Baptist, Justice Bazanco, Justice Giles, Justice Jones and Justice 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:12.000 mah and on the appellate bench, Justice Also and Justice French. 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.920 So seven Australian judges sitting on the Commercial in the 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:21.520 Commercial Division of the Singapore Supreme Court. I say their 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:25.600 presence on that court is, among other things, to bring 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:29.240 respectability to the court system in Singapore. They're there because 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:33.640 they're Australian and Singapore Government can boast that these distinguished 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:38.640 judges are members of the court and bring the associated prestige. 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:44.120 But they are also there effectively bringing respectability to a 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:48.600 system that executes people. We are in Australia, we have 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.800 been since the nineteen nineties a part of a regime 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:57.280 against the death penalty, where signatory to the relevant United 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:01.000 Nations Protocol, we've declared that we are anti death penalty. 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:04.880 We've passed legislation to stop any jurisdiction in Australia bringing 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:08.080 the death penalty back in Australia. So my position is 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:11.000 these seven Australians should not be sitting on that court 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.360 because they bring a respectability to the court that it 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:17.079 doesn't deserve giving the given that it executes people. 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:21.200 I'm with you. I think that you know, sitting on 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:25.640 courts of countries which and let's face Singapore is a 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:31.400 foe democracy. It's a democracy in name only. But you've 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:36.040 also got, for example, in Nahru, a very problematic corrupt 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:40.080 regime with Australian judges sitting there in Hong Kong. 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.720 And Hong Kong is another one in fact penalty situation 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:43.320 in Hong Kong. 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.120 But no, but some judges have left, I mean some 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.280 as have said we won't be part of this, Yeah, 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.040 and left and some have stayed and some have stayed, 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:54.839 and I think the ones who've left have done the 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:58.320 right thing. I mean, that's not to attack the integrity 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.480 of these judges, but what it is to say is 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:05.800 that I think it's a bad call on their part. 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.000 Well, it makes it with Singapore, it sort of makes 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.559 it look as though there's some kind of seamless relationship 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.120 between our court system and theirs, and there just isn't. 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:16.520 They just no, they can't be. 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.480 No, you can't have a seamless relationship with the jurisdiction 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:21.760 that it pays as the death penalty if we're serious 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:22.880 about our opposition to it. 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.160 Yeah, no, I agree. And the thing about the death penalty, 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:31.679 of course, is that it is always unjust. Always there 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.880 is no situation in which the death penalty is justified. 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:39.959 In my opinion, it's not just these countries, but it's 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.400 also in some ways a reflection of Australia's foreign policy, 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.680 and this is moving into other areas that we're prepared 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:52.560 to cut deals, very cozy deals, military, legal, otherwise, with 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:56.880 countries that are ra arch exponents of the death penalty. 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.760 Well, the president of the United States, Yeah, is an 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.840 art supporter of I mean we just ignore that. 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.600 We're just pretending that if your skin was brown. Yes, 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.800 you know, I think, you know, it reminds me a bit. 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.880 You know, when apartheid was the rule in South Africa, 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:17.360 that is, the whites being privileged and treated in a 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:21.160 particular way as opposed to blacks. No Australian cricketer would 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:23.320 go over there. Well they did in the eighties, but 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.600 there was a ban, and there was a ban I 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:30.760 think on a range of exchanges with South Africa. And 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:35.760 you know, I think in relation to Singapore, the whilst 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.120 these judges are independent, I think the government ought to 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.720 be sending a message that it's not particularly helpful. 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.680 I think that's right. I agree. I think the government 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:48.000 should persuade senior judges in Australia not to take appointments 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:49.120 in Singapore. 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:50.960 I mean, there are plenty of other appointments to take. 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:53.640 You know, there's a Royal commission coming up as a 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.120 royal committee's always work here. 0:11:57.800 --> 0:11:59.600 No, No, you'll get a headline out of that lexic 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:01.920 looking for head Well, you're going to get one because 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.440 it's a it's a it's a view that I think, 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:07.440 good on you for being courageous enough to say it, 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.120 because there'll be a lot of those in the law 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.640 who'd be a bit timid about saying something like that. 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:14.760 But I'm assuming you're not going to appear in front 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:15.600 of any of these I. 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.440 Don't think I will, look, I don't, I don't. I 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.840 want to make it clear. I'm not trying to impugne 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:25.520 there the personally, and I understand why they're there, and 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.920 I mean, these are these are these are very high level, 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.080 very smart, but very intelligent people. I just from the 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.320 life of me, cannot see why they can't see that 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:38.920 there's a most unpleasant connection to all this and they're 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.520 part of it. You can't. You can't segment it from 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:44.400 the reality of what happens in Singapore. 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:45.760 Yeah, I agree, I agree. 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.040 We talking about politics. 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.360 One issue I wanted to raise was we had the 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:54.960 recent ALP conference, which, of course, like all these conferences 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.360 these days, is useless because it's just stage managed, wasn't it. 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.280 Particularly and now on you hear ed Husick trying to 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:06.200 move a meaningful motion on Israel. But the ALP, traditionally 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.800 around Australia has been opposed to mandatory sentences, so in 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.080 other words, that you have to send a person to jar, 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:13.120 whether you like it or not. 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.120 For those who are not particularly familiar, a judge can 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:19.080 find themselves in a case where they're having to sentence 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.240 somebody and there's a piece of legislation that says the 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:26.320 minimum sentence you can impose is x us. The best 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:29.760 example is probably the Northern Territory where for murder the 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:34.080 man Tree sentence is life yep, and the Mantree minimum, 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:39.840 particularly if you murder a domestic partner, is twenty five years. Yeah. 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:44.079 So it means, regardless of the circumstances of the case, 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.400 that's the minimum sentence you have to impose. Yeah, And 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:49.480 a lot of judges would look at that and just say, well, 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.080 it's how can you possibly do that? How can you 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:53.079 general just like that? 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:57.280 So it's unjustin the ALP's position, although of course the 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.640 ALP was one of the first in fact act in 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.559 ninety the nineteen nineties, I think there were proposals by 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.840 the ALP in Western Australia who introduced mandatory sentencing. Having 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:13.000 said that, it's mainly been conservative governments, but the ALP's 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.080 platform used to say that it was opposed because it 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.920 didn't reduce crime. And also interfered with judicial independence. They've 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:24.560 now watered that down to essentially say, well, we observe 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:28.200 that it does that. I mean, you could say in 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.120 a way that reflects the reality of labor governments that 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.560 they're no different to the Conservatives now when it comes 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:36.480 to lord order campaigns, but because they're governed by the 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.440 tabloid press. Yeah, but this is a reflection I think 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:45.240 of the fact that the only political party now that 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:50.360 opposes mandatory sentencing explicitly is in terms of the major parties, 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.600 is the Greens. I think they're the only ones left. 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.680 But you know, and there are a lot of good 0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:00.600 statements out about it. Robert Tichner, former labor in the 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:03.520 Hawk and Keyting governments, now runs the Justice Reform Initiative. 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.560 He came out and spoke against it. I know that 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.640 within the ALP talking to a couple of people that 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:14.600 I know were very disappointed in the attitude. But whilst 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:18.880 party platforms don't bind governments, it just means now there's 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.480 less of a pressure point on governments to think twice 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:24.360 about introducing mandatory sentencing. 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.080 The thing about it, Greg is that, I mean, it's 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.760 very insulting to the judiciary, yeah, because when you think 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.640 about sentencing a judge. When a judge is sentencing someone, 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.400 they're supposed to examine all the circumstances of the case, 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.920 every detail for and against the accused, every aspect of 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.280 the consequences for the victims, the circumstances of the offense. 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.960 The sentencing sets out the whole list of what you 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.360 have to take into account, and then, as they say, 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:54.640 come to an intuitive synthesis on what the sentence should be. 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:58.400 A fair and reasonable sentence given the circumstances that prevail 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.800 in that particular case. Sounds it's pretty fair and logical 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.200 to me. Governments are saying, well, that's not good enough. 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.680 If you take everything into account and impose a fair sentence, 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.360 it won't be enough. Therefore, we will impose a manatory 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.440 sense for this all that offense. Yeah, it's just basically 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.880 saying the judges, we don't trust sentencing. 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:25.200 It's a serious incursion into an erosion of the separation 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:27.600 of powers. It is, and you know. 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:29.360 We now just accept it, We must accept it. 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.000 No. No, But people in the community say, oh, well, 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.120 you know, judges are too soft. I think I might 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.440 have mentioned in a previous podcast, but I'll mention it 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.800 again because it's interesting. There's a some academic work done 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.560 by Kate Warner who was an academic from Tasmania and 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:50.280 became governor of Tasmania, and she interviewed jurors who sat 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:54.600 on criminal trials and said, what sentence would you have imposed? 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:56.760 He's what the judge imposed, what do you think? And 0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:00.400 they'd heard all the case and in over fifty percent 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.400 of cases they said, I would have been less. And 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.679 I think you know, those people would have started, they 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:09.800 would have heard at the prosecution side and said, oh, 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:11.680 this guy's got to go to jail for a long time. 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.040 But once they hear the whole thing, they change your view. 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:18.160 So you know, one of the problems I think for 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:23.639 discussion about sentencing in our community is that well, I 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:31.320 think irresponsible media, irresponsible politicians. But I think I think 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:33.720 and it's I've been a bugbear of mine, But you 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.160 and I are media savvy. A lot of lawyers aren't. 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.480 But I think chief justice, as chief judges, chief magistrates 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.720 ought to be getting into the media not to talk 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:46.000 about cases, but to explain how the system works. They 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:50.640 do it periodically, but I think in South Australia, John 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.720 Doyle who was Chief Justice twenty years ago, had a 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:57.680 regular gig on the ABC The Morning Show, and I 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.800 think Wayne Martin in Western Australia used to do it regularly. 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.680 And I think it's really important, Yeah, because the humanizes them. 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.800 They're not just the Chief Justice there, Bill or christ 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.000 or whoever they are. But they can talk about things 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:16.720 and there's no reason why they can't take questions from 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.120 the audience because they're screened. You know, we can't talk 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.760 about particular cases, but if you've got a question. And courts, 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.560 I think even though they've spent money, as your court 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:31.760 did on media teams, I don't think it's having any 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:37.360 impact really when it comes to being judges being available 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:41.520 to talk chief the leaders of courts. I just think 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:43.840 it should be a regular thing. They should come on 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:44.520 our podcast. 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.240 Funny you should say that, because I did leave a 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:52.200 message with the executive Assistant to the Chief Justice here 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.719 in Victoria yea as he's a good guy, Yeah, asking 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.879 Justice Nile, Chief Justice Nile, asking him to consider coming on. 0:18:59.920 --> 0:19:03.879 I haven't funded it up, but I mean he's an articulate, 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.480 clever man who I think people would be interested to 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:07.800 hear from. 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.240 And I think that The Doyle experiment went pretty well 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:14.359 because he didn't talk legal es. You know, he can 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:19.720 communicate with people, and my memory was that he would, 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:23.560 for example, they would say, well, this case is finished, 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:27.000 but here's the sentence. Can you tell us now, he 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:31.679 would very rightly stick to the script. Well here's you know, 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.240 here's what the judge said, and here's why the judge 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.920 said it, and that's why this is relevant and that's 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:42.680 not relevant and explain it because you know, people don't read, 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.760 they don't go around to read sentencing remarks. They rely 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:53.320 effectively on media TikTok. You know, pseudo celebrities like christ 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:58.640 chardy X footballer's wife. Beck's who the Herald some seems 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.600 to think is a go to per on criminal justice issues. 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.680 Crime in Brighton, crime in crime in Brighton. For those 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:08.640 who don't live in Brighton, that's the how you're sat 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.600 well in Sydney, it's just Brighton or Sands. I think 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:15.440 in South Australia is just Brighton, but not in Victoria. 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.720 But let's just you know, we talked about we had 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.720 Abbi Raj Kumar on to talk about, yes, the Northern 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.160 Territory and she was fabulous And for those who haven't listened, 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.399 please listen, because she really exposed what's going on up there. 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.000 But it got me thinking. You know, Western Australia, which 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:38.200 has a huge Indigenous population, so does Queensland, and it's 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:41.679 equally depressing in terms of the number of Indigenous people 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:45.919 in their jail system. The fact that they also have 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:51.080 mandatory sentencing really harsh laws, which I know having to 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:53.720 talked to some Western Australian judges, they are pretty uncomfortable with. 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.400 You know, we've got this federal government policy of closing 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:00.720 the gap. We can talk about health in each everything else, 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.760 but when it comes to criminal justice, you know, we've 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.159 still got deaths in custody, as we talked about with 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.320 Abby and including in w WA, some really horrific cases. 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:16.879 We've got in Queensland now this adult crime adult time 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:24.480 laws which are affecting disproportionately Indigenous kids, but even smaller 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:28.360 things such as you know, during COVID in New South Wales, 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:31.280 the surveys that were done showed that there was a 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:36.679 disproportionate number of Aboriginal people who were fine for not 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:39.199 wearing masks or being out on the street when they 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:43.680 shouldn't have been. It's just it's not just the territory, 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:45.160 it's out Australia. 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:48.040 No, Yes, that's right. I mean we've got a Curry 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:51.199 Court here in Victoria. Yeah, which I think works pretty well, 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:54.760 doesn't it. So the Curry Court, I've appeared there. 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.679 It's an amazing experience where you go to court with 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:01.359 your client as an Aboriginal clients, and the judge comes 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.159 down from the bench and sits at the table, and 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:08.560 the two Aboriginal elders there and I've seen young Aboriginal kids, 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:13.399 you know, nine twenty sit there and the elders speak 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.600 with them and it's so powerful, much more powerful than 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:18.440 what I could say to them or the police could 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:20.840 say to them, more a judge could say. But I 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:24.040 noticed that. I think that the Curry Court, which was 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:27.200 started by Rob Holes who was Attorney General in Victoria, 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:28.600 I think we're going to get him on one day. 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.800 I don't think it's been fully replicated in other jurisdictions 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:35.960 around Australia, which is a pity. 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:38.480 Yes, I must say in defense of the judiciary and 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:41.440 the Northern Territory. From what I saw while I was 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.920 up there, judges of the Northern Territory Supreme Court were 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:49.239 extremely conscious of the need to try to emulate that 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:53.120 kind of performance. A lot of them have an understanding 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:58.280 of Indigenous language. They've made it their business to know 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:00.679 where people are from and to know that details of 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:03.920 that part of the country. They can talk to them 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:06.520 in terms that they can understand. Yeah, and I think, 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:07.760 you know, if you're going to be a judge in 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:09.840