1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily OS. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 2: This is the Daily OS. 3 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Oh now it makes sense. 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Odds. It's Friday, 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 3: the twenty third of January. 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 4: I'm Lucy Tassel, I'm Emma Gillespie. 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 3: For the second time in less than a year, the 8 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 3: Nationals have walked away from the Federal Coalition. This time, 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 3: the exit was sparked by one of the two bills 10 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 3: the government brought to a special sitting of Parliament this week, 11 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 3: but ended up centering on the inner workings of the 12 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 3: coalition and the parties that make it up. Today, we'll 13 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 3: take you through the whole story from the beginning, explaining 14 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 3: everything you need to know about the coalition's latest breakup. 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 4: Lucy, I've got a bit of deja vous this week 16 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 4: with these headlines. You said you would explain this one 17 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 4: from the beginning, but when is that a exactly Well. 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 3: I had a lot of thinking to do about where 19 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 3: this technically starts. Do we start when the coalition formed 20 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 3: for the first time, which was in nineteen twenty three. 21 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 3: Do we say in nineteen eighty seven when they reformed 22 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 3: for good after a short break after running separately in 23 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 3: the Federal election and losing very badly to Bob Hawk's 24 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 3: Labor for the third time in a row. After that election, 25 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 3: they got back together and they were together all through 26 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 3: until last year, including in government and opposition last year. 27 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 3: Of course, May twenty twenty five. The last time we 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 3: talked about the coalition's history and formation was after the 29 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 3: most recent federal election, and that's when National's leader David 30 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 3: Littelproud said the party couldn't secure guarantees about several policy 31 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 3: positions as the coalition was kind of considering its place 32 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 3: post election loss. 33 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 4: So as in he couldn't secure guarantees about where the 34 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 4: Nationals would stand on liberal policy positions. 35 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, he basically because the coalition acts together. The Nationals 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 3: wanted certain things to be coalition policy, and he couldn't 37 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: secure guarantees from the Liberals, the senior partner, and the 38 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 3: coalition that those things would be agreed to. 39 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: Okay. 40 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 3: Now, At the time, Liberal leader Susan Lee said that 41 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 3: this was because every policy was up for review post 42 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 3: election and she wouldn't commit to anything specific because they 43 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 3: were still working through that process. 44 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: Okay. 45 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 3: When they split last time, it lasted eight days. When 46 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 3: they got back together. That reunion didn't resolve everything, as 47 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 3: we now see, and one of those things that was 48 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 3: left unresolved, which i'll just foreshadow, is called shadow cabinet solidarity. 49 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 3: That reared its head again this week as Parliament sat 50 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 3: to pass two emergency bills. Now, Emma, you were on 51 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 3: the pod earlier this week to explain the context of 52 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 3: those bills, so maybe you can give us a quick rundown. 53 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, so very complicated, but I'll try to keep it simple. 54 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 4: As I explained earlier in the week, there were two 55 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 4: bills before Parliament this special sitting in the wake of 56 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 4: the anti Semitic Bondi terror attack. Initially that was one 57 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 4: piece of legislation, then it was split. We won't get 58 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 4: into that. One of the bills was to tighten gun 59 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 4: ownership rules and one was around hate speech. Now, the 60 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 4: gun reform Bill you've probably heard about. It includes a 61 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 4: national buyback scheme, a new condition requiring firearm license holders 62 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 4: to be Australian citizens, and some other reforms there. While 63 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 4: the Hate Speech Bill, much more controversial piece of legislation, 64 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 4: it has to be said, had a few aspects, but 65 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 4: probably the most relevant one to this discussion. Based on 66 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 4: what I've read at least was around a new national 67 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 4: framework allowing the government to formally list prohibited hate groups 68 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 4: similar to how terrorist organizations are listed. So, Lucy, the 69 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 4: Coalition was involved in amending these bills. It said that 70 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 4: it had certain sticking points that it wanted to see 71 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 4: resolved in order to support the bills. What do we 72 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 4: know about what the Nats wanted changed on. 73 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 3: The Hate Speech Bill, which, as you said, is the 74 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 3: most relevant to us today. The most contentious Opposition leader 75 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 3: Susan Lee has said the Coalition had worked to quote 76 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 3: narrow the scope of this bill to deal with anti 77 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 3: Semitism and tackle radical Islamist extremism. Now Lee's version of 78 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 3: events is that the Shadow Cabinet, so that's her team 79 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 3: of senior ministers from across the coalition, met on Sunday 80 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 3: night to look over the government's proposed bills and to 81 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 3: work out any issues they wanted to raise before they 82 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 3: were brought to Parliament, then to discuss those with the government, 83 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 3: which they then did, and then the bills came to 84 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 3: Parliament assumedly with the support of the Coalition. Then after that, 85 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 3: according to reporting by Paul Sakhal at The Sydney Morning Herald. 86 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 3: The Nationals then met as a party separately on Monday 87 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 3: and Tuesday and came to a different position with the 88 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 3: input of backbencher Matt Canavan, who was concerned the hate 89 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 3: group listing part of the bill might end up including 90 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 3: quote mainstream political and religious groups. 91 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 4: Okay, to recap, the coalition leadership from what we know, 92 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 4: had agreed to a position, or the Liberal Party says 93 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 4: the coalition leadership had agreed to a position. It's agreed 94 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 4: to support the Hate Speech Bill if the Government agrees 95 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,559 Speaker 4: to some changes. So the coalition says, these other things 96 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 4: we need to change. We're all aligned on that. If 97 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 4: that changes, we support this bill. And the Government then 98 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 4: does make those changes to allow the bill to pass. 99 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 4: Then the Nationals, including those who are in the shadow cabinet, 100 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 4: so senior leadership, they meet to discuss other issues away from. 101 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: The Liberal Party. 102 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 4: What happened once the bills came to Parliament in a 103 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 4: form that I'm assuming the Liberal Party thought the Nationals 104 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 4: would support. 105 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, So when the bills went to the lower House, 106 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 3: the House of Representatives, one Nationals MP abstained from voting 107 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 3: for the bill, so they didn't vote one way or another. 108 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 3: The one who voted for it was backbencher Michael McCormack, 109 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 3: who is the former leader of the Nationals. He was 110 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 3: Deputy PM under Scott Morrison for a few years and 111 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 3: he told AAP he didn't want to let the perfect 112 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 3: be the enemy of the good. Those were his words. Okay, 113 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 3: this didn't particularly matter in the lower House because Labor 114 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 3: has a huge majority as we remember from the May election, 115 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 3: so it didn't need anyone else's support in that part 116 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 3: of Parliament. But then in the Senate things look different. 117 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 3: Labor needed the support of the Coalition or a group 118 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 3: of independents or the Greens, or they need to basically 119 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: form support using different variations of the other parties in 120 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 3: the Senate every time they want to get something through. 121 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 3: Late on Tuesday night, around twenty minutes before the Hate 122 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 3: Speech Bill was set to come up for a vote 123 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 3: in the Senate, Little Proud posted a statement on x 124 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 3: and he said the Nationals had decided they could support 125 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 3: the bill. He said the Nationals wanted to move amendments 126 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 3: to quote guarantee greater protections against unintended consequences that limit 127 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 3: the rights and freedom of speech of everyday Australians and 128 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: the Jewish community, and he said that if their amendments 129 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: didn't pass, the Nationals would vote against the bill in 130 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 3: the Senate. So they've abstained in the House. Later that 131 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 3: day he's released his statement it's coming up for a vote, 132 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 3: and then that is what they did. There are three 133 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 3: Nationals in the Senate, plus there's Susan McDonald who is 134 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 3: part of the Queensland Combined Liberal National Party. You probably 135 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: heard about them last we talked about the coalition because 136 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 3: we were saying, like, what happens now to the Combined Party? 137 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 3: Nothing at the state level, but at the federal level, 138 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: some stuff happens. So Susan McDonald, Bridget McKenzie, the aforementioned 139 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 3: Matt Canavan and Ross Cadell voted against the bill. McDonald, 140 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 3: McKenzie and Cadell were all members of the shadow cabinet, 141 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 3: so this was very significant for them to vote against 142 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 3: the bill. 143 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 4: Can you explain, Lucy, why it was so significant that 144 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 4: we had these senior Nationals leaders vote against the bill 145 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 4: and presumably against their Liberal counterparts in the Senate. 146 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 5: Yeah. 147 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 3: So when a party forms government or it forms an 148 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 3: official opposition, they set up a cabinet of ministers to 149 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 3: advise their leader and to manage matters of importance agriculture, 150 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 3: like the Minister for Women, the Shadow Minister for Women, 151 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: the treasurer, the shadow Treasurer. In the coalition, members of 152 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 3: the cabinet or the shadow cabinet are bound to vote 153 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 3: together and to not publicly disagree on party policy based 154 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 3: on the position they agree to behind closed doors, and 155 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 3: their cabinet or their shadow cabinet draws on the Liberal, 156 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: the National the Liberal National, the Country Liberal parties, all 157 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 3: of these different small parties that make up the coalition. 158 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 4: Okay, So while the National Party and the Liberal Party 159 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 4: are separate parties on their own, when they come together 160 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 4: as a coalition under the leadership of a shadow cabinet, 161 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 4: that shadow cabinet is meant to be aligned on all policy. 162 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 4: Whatever goes on behind closed doors, maybe they will disagree, 163 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 4: have heated arguments that we don't hear about, but they 164 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 4: are then publicly facing and in the Parliament saying this 165 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 4: is where we're at on this. 166 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 3: Thing, united front. This is interesting because it's different to Labor, 167 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 3: where that rule applies to the entire party. They can 168 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 3: disagree on things behind closed doors, but not so much 169 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 3: publicly disagreeing on policy, but they have to vote together 170 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 3: one hundred percent of the time, unless it's a conscience 171 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 3: vote where they're allowed to vote based on personal beliefs. 172 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 4: Which is why you will more often see a Liberal 173 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 4: or National MP crossing the floor. 174 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: That's the way that it's referred to. 175 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 4: They may cross the floor on a piece of legislation 176 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 4: and vote against their party, but that is very rare for. 177 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 3: A Yeah, and in the coalition. You really shouldn't do 178 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 3: that if you're in the cabinet, if you want to 179 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 3: keep your cabinet post. Historically, speaking now, back in May 180 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 3: after the federal election, Susan Lee said, one of the 181 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 3: issues that led to that split was that the Nationals 182 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 3: wanted to do away with cabinet solidarity. 183 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: That's what it's called. 184 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 4: That first split of the Nationals and Liberal Party coalition. 185 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, she said at the time that this was an 186 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 3: issue and this was a subject of some dispute. As 187 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 3: you'll hear in this clip from Sarah Ferguson on the 188 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 3: ABC's seven thirty interviewing Nationals Senator Bridget McKenzie again, one 189 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 3: of those cabinet members who voted against the bill at 190 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 3: the time. 191 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 5: Are you saying, Susan Lee is not telling the truth 192 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 5: when she says one of the key issues was a 193 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 5: request from the Nationals that they not be obliged to 194 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 5: maintain shadow cabinet solidarity. 195 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: So Sarah, I can tell you because I was in 196 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: the National Party party room that made this decision, the 197 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 2: decision which was then conveyed the Liberal leader, and that 198 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: was not part of our consideration. 199 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 5: Now, as that interview played, We've just received a note 200 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 5: from Susan Lee's office saying it is not correct to 201 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 5: suggest that shadow cabinet solidarity was not a sticking point, 202 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 5: and they, that is Susan Lee's office, have that in writing. 203 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 3: In the end, the Nationals did agree to cabinet solidarity 204 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 3: and the coalition got back together. But we see now 205 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 3: that the issue might have been resolved in word, but 206 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 3: not so much indeed in action, because these shadow cabinet 207 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 3: members voted against the bill and against their solidarity obligation, 208 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 3: and all three of those who are shadow cabinet members 209 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 3: handed in their resignations on Wednesday. 210 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 4: So three National Senators who are in the shadow cabinet 211 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 4: vote against the Liberal Party, breaking that rule of cabinet solidarity, 212 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 4: and as a result they hand in their resignations from 213 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 4: the cabinet, right, not from their roles altogether. 214 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, not as senators, but as shadow cabinet members. 215 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. 216 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 4: How did opposition leader Liberal Party leader Susan Lee react 217 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 4: to all of this? What has she had to say 218 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 4: about this huge shift within her party? 219 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 3: In a statement on Wednesday afternoon, Lee said, quote, shadow 220 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 3: cabinet solidarity is not optional. It is the foundation of 221 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 3: serious opposition and credible government. And she outlined all those 222 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 3: points that I've attributed to her throughout this episode, her 223 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 3: version of events that she says the shadow cabinet agreed together. 224 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 3: And she added that she had spoken to Little Proud 225 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 3: several times on Tuesday, the day that it was before 226 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 3: the Senate, to make it clear that quote, members of 227 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 3: the shadow cabinet could not vote against the shadow cabinet position. 228 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 3: So you can see Little Proud has abided by that 229 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 3: in abstaining not voting against but not the senor the 230 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 3: other senior Nationals. Lee accepted their resignations, and then on 231 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 3: Wednesday night it was reported that the Nationals were having 232 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 3: a crisis meeting, and later that night all of the 233 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 3: Nationals who were still in the shadow Cabinet all resigned 234 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 3: from the Shadow Cabinet a. 235 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: Total of eight Nationals MPs. 236 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 3: Right Lee said at the time that quote no permanent 237 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 3: changes will be made to the Shadow Ministry at this time, 238 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 3: giving the National Party time to reconsider these offers of resignation. 239 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 3: And that then brings us to eight thirty am Thursday morning, 240 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 3: just as I walk into the office with my coffee, 241 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 3: ready to start a day that I thought could possibly 242 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 3: involve a coalition split, but I wasn't one hundred percent sure, 243 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 3: and I turned on the office TVs to see David 244 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 3: Little Proud at a press conference saying the Nationals were 245 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 3: walking out of the coalition again. 246 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 4: Okay, we have obviously heard loud and clear Susan Lee's 247 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 4: version of events. What has David Little Proud said, as 248 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 4: Leader of the Nationals to explain what's gone on here? 249 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: How has he responded? 250 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's basically outlined a kind of different version of events. 251 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 3: He said the Nationals had to old the Shadow Cabinet 252 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 3: meeting on Sunday that they supported the parts of the 253 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 3: bill that related to giving the Home Affairs Minister more 254 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 3: power to refuse or cancel people's visas, but that the 255 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 3: Nationals had quote serious reservations about the freedom of speech 256 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: and the hate organizations. We wanted to make sure that 257 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 3: we got the right mechanism that didn't impinge on honest 258 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 3: Australian's rights to speak. He said. The Nats had been 259 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 3: working on Monday and Tuesday on the amendments, which he 260 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 3: said they had flagged they wanted to do, and he 261 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 3: said Lee told him to let the Nationals raise those 262 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 3: amendments and quote if they failed, then consider voting a 263 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 3: different way. So that's Little Proud's characterization. But then Little 264 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,479 Speaker 3: Proud said, when Lee said this, the House of Representatives 265 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 3: was on the point of voting for the bill. So 266 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 3: with no time left, he said he abided by his 267 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 3: solidarity requirement by abstaining from the vote. 268 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 4: Okay, so the Nationals wanted amendments to the bill, there 269 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 4: was no time to discuss or get those amendments sorted 270 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 4: before it ended up being voted on in the Lower House, 271 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 4: and as a result, the Nationals, with this kind of 272 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 4: unresolved list of amendments, decided not to vote rather than 273 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 4: vote for or against. 274 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly because he, as a member of the Shadow Cabinet, 275 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 3: didn't want to break that rule. As he says that 276 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 3: meant that the amendments had to go in the Senate. 277 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 3: That's the last place that they could go. When they 278 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 3: did go and they failed, Little Prowd says this meant 279 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 3: the senators voted against the bill quote as the will 280 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 3: of the National Party party room. When they resigned after this, 281 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 3: Little Proud said he told Lee that if she accepted 282 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 3: their resignations, the rest of the Nationals in the shadow 283 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 3: cabinet would walk because it quote would not be appropriate 284 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 3: considering the circumstances we had. And he ended up sort 285 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 3: of blaming the government for the situation, calling it a 286 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 3: rushed process. 287 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 4: Okay, we've got the leader of the NACE, David little Proud, 288 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 4: saying that government has pushed forward this legislation too quickly. 289 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 4: There hasn't been enough time for proper due diligence. These 290 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 4: sort of extraordinary circumstances of Parliament being recalled early in 291 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 4: the wake of the horrific Bondi terror attack. Then you've 292 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 4: got Little Proud saying that Susan Lee wanted the Nationals 293 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 4: to figure out these amendments and raise them. Those amendments 294 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 4: were raised in the Senate by the three National senators 295 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 4: who are also in shadow cabinet, the amendments fail, the 296 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 4: Nationals don't support the hate speech bill, and those three 297 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 4: National senators resign. Am I right in thinking Little Proud 298 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 4: is then upset with Susan Lee for accepting those resignations 299 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 4: and as a result stands in solidarity with his party 300 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 4: room and the entire presence of Nationals in the shadow cabinet. 301 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: Resign from shadow cabinet. 302 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 3: That's basically the gist of it. 303 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, thank you, sorry, a lot of moving parts. 304 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 4: Just wanted to make sure we were on the same 305 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 4: page totally. What's interesting to me, Lucy, is that Susan Lee, 306 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 4: as Opposition leader, was calling for Parliament to be recalled 307 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 4: urgently to deal with anti Semitism, to have legislation of 308 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 4: this nature tabled in the days immediately following the Bondi 309 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 4: terror attack. This is what we had heard from her. 310 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 4: She wanted parliament to be recalled before Christmas. So there 311 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 4: has been some criticism or confusion, I suppose around the 312 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 4: line from both the Liberal and National parties that this 313 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 4: was rushed and too quick a process, when that is 314 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 4: what the opposition leader wanted, wasn't it. 315 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, both before and after Christmas. In the first 316 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 3: weeks of January, Lee was saying Parliament had to come back. 317 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 3: She was saying that as early as the seventeenth of December, 318 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 3: with the attack having occurred on the fourteenth of December, 319 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 3: and in the first week of January, she said there 320 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 3: had been enough time between the attack and Christmas. She 321 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 3: said that was a quote fair timeline. Now Little Proud 322 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 3: said the Nationals would have the third Parliament come back 323 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 3: to vote on just the migration aspect of the bill, 324 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 3: so just the Home Affairs aspect, and divert the rest 325 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 3: to committees to discuss in more detail. Finally, the final 326 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 3: thing that he said that I think we should touch 327 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 3: on is he said, quote the Nationals cannot be part 328 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 3: of a shadow ministry under Susan Lee. 329 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 4: So very direct and clear in his language there. Yeah, 330 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 4: there have been I suppose question marks around Susan Lee's 331 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 4: leadership ever since these cracks first emerged between the Liberal 332 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 4: and National Parties as a coalition. 333 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. What has the response to all of. 334 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 4: This been from Susan Lee, the opposition leader and as 335 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 4: well as the Prime Minister Anthony Albinezi as the person 336 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 4: leading the legislation himself. 337 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, so all of this was happening on the National 338 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 3: Day of Mourning for the victims of the bond Eyed 339 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 3: terror attack. Lee sent out a statement at nine am, 340 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 3: right after Little Proud finished his presser. She said, quote, 341 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 3: today the folks must be on Jewish Australians, indeed all 342 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 3: Australians as we mourn the victims of the Bondai terrorist attack. 343 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 3: My responsibility as leader of the Opposition and leader of 344 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 3: the Liberal Party is to Australians in mourning. And at 345 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 3: the time of recording, we've also heard similar things from Albanezi, 346 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 3: who was involved in events for the day throughout all 347 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 3: of Thursday. 348 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 4: Okay, so both leaders there focused on the day of 349 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 4: Mourning on Thursday rather than discussing the ins and outs 350 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 4: of this political turmoil. 351 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 3: Yes, we did hear from ex National and erstwhile National 352 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 3: Party leader Barnaby Joyce. He told reporters in his electorate 353 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 3: in Tamworth on Thursday that Little Proud had quote besmirched 354 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 3: the proper role of what is supposed to happen in 355 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 3: a parliament where the government puts forward legislation and the 356 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 3: opposition forensically goes through it. Coalition is a marriage and 357 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,719 Speaker 3: this is more marriages than a weekend at the Gold Coast. 358 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 3: It's just not working. He added that it seemed like 359 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 3: a quote recruitment drive for his new party, One Nation. 360 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 4: And this all comes, of course, hot on the heels 361 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 4: of One Nation. A historic result in the latest polling, 362 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 4: yes having more support amongst the Australian electorate than the 363 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 4: coalition itself. 364 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. In the News poll which is run for the 365 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 3: Australian they were one percent ahead of the Coalition. The 366 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 3: question being if the election were held tomorrow, who would 367 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,360 Speaker 3: you rank number one on your ranked ballot? 368 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 4: So fascinating to see, Lucy. There are so many unanswered 369 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 4: questions in terms of what comes next, but no doubt 370 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 4: the conversation about Susan Lee's leadership will continue to be 371 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 4: debated and we'll keep a close eye on it. Thank 372 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 4: you for listening to today's episode. That's all we've got 373 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 4: time for for today's Deep Dive, but we will be 374 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 4: back a little later on with your evening news headlines. 375 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: Until then, have a great day. 376 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 6: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Adunda 377 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 6: Bunjelung Kalkottin from Gadigol Country. The Daily Oz acknowledges that 378 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 6: this podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadigol 379 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 6: people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest rate 380 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 6: island and nations. We pay our respects to the first 381 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 6: peoples of these countries, both past and present.