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Speaker 1: Already and this is the daily.

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Speaker 2: This is the daily, This is the daily ours. Oh

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Speaker 2: now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to the

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Speaker 2: Daily Ours.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lucy Tassel, I'm Emma Gillespie.

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Speaker 2: Late on Monday night, the lead prosecutor at the International

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Speaker 2: Criminal Court made a major announcement. He was applying for

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Speaker 2: arrest warrants for three Hamas leaders and Israel's Prime Minister

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Speaker 2: Benjamin Netna. Who and Defense Minister?

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Speaker 3: You have gallant, no foot soldier, no commander, no civilian leader.

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Speaker 3: No one can act with impunity. Nothing on earth can

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Speaker 3: justify wilfully depriving human beings, women and children, babies, the

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Speaker 3: old and the young, of the basic necessities required for life. Nothing,

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Speaker 3: nothing on earth can justify hostage taking or the targeting

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Speaker 3: and killing of civilians.

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Speaker 2: Today we'll explain what this all means and what could

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Speaker 2: happen now. But first, Emma, what's making headlines.

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Speaker 1: Foreign Minister Penny Wong says Australia has been approved to

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Speaker 1: evacuate Australian citizens and other tourists from New Caledonia. Violent

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Speaker 1: protests are continuing in the French territory after proposed changes

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Speaker 1: to local voting laws Minister Wong said the Department of

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Speaker 1: Foreign Affairs and Trade received clearance from French authorities on

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Speaker 1: Tuesday for two Australian Government assisted departure flights, and that

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Speaker 1: the government was working to secure more evacuation flights in

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Speaker 1: the region. Wong said Australians in New Caledonia were being

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Speaker 1: prioritized on a needs basis.

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Speaker 2: The domestic aviation industry has almost fully recovered to pre

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Speaker 2: pandemic levels, according to new data from the Australian Competition

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Speaker 2: and Consumer Commission thea Triple C. IT recorded four point

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Speaker 2: nine nine million domestic passengers in March twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 2: around one percent below March twenty nineteen figures. However, the

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Speaker 2: competition watchdog is calling on the government to do more

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Speaker 2: to support domestic competition, particularly for regional travel.

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Speaker 1: UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunac has apologized to those impacted

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Speaker 1: by Britain's infected blood donation scandal, which passed on infections

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Speaker 1: like HIV and hepatitis, killing around three thousand people and

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Speaker 1: estimated thirty thousand patients in the UK were infected with

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Speaker 1: contaminated blood between the nineteen seventies and nineteen nineties. Speaking

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Speaker 1: at a parliamentary inquiry into the incident. Sunak addressed victims

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Speaker 1: and their families, saying he was truly sorry on behalf

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Speaker 1: of this and every government stretching back to the seventies.

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Speaker 1: SUNAC vowed to compensate those impacted.

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Speaker 2: And today's good news a new network has been launched

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Speaker 2: to connect to Australians around the country to cancer services.

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Speaker 2: The Australian Comprehensive Cancer Network ACCN will work with cancer

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Speaker 2: care centers, academic organizations, community services and other health facilities

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Speaker 2: to provide better health outcomes for Australians with cancer. The

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Speaker 2: government body will also focus on improving outcomes for people

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Speaker 2: in rural and remote regions, as well as First Nations communities.

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Speaker 1: We got an announcement on Monday that's been a long

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Speaker 1: time coming. Karim Khan, the top prosecutor at the International

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Speaker 1: Criminal Court or ICC, is seeking arrest warrants for the

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Speaker 1: leaders on both sides of the Israel hamas war.

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Speaker 3: As I have repeatedly underlined those who do not comply

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Speaker 3: with the law should not complain later when my office

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Speaker 3: takes action based upon solid evidence. That day has come.

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Speaker 1: That said, now that it is here, we've got a

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Speaker 1: lot to wrap our heads around. So Lucy, can you

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Speaker 1: start by explaining what the ICC actually is.

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Speaker 2: The ICC came into being in the early two thousands

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Speaker 2: and it was developed as a third party court to

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Speaker 2: prosecute individual people for very very serious crimes. So that

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Speaker 2: is in comparison to the International Court of Justice, which

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Speaker 2: prosecutes cases in between countries. The ICC is a UN

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Speaker 2: body and it's set up under a treaty that one

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Speaker 2: hundred and twenty four countries are parties to, which means

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Speaker 2: they agree to follow its rules, and that'll be relevant later.

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Speaker 2: That's a majority of the countries in the UN, but

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Speaker 2: by no means all of them.

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Speaker 1: So we've got this treaty. One hundred and twenty four

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Speaker 1: countries have signed forms the ICC. Why did those countries

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Speaker 1: agree to set this thing up?

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Speaker 2: Throughout the twentieth century, as everyone would know, there were

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Speaker 2: a series of genocides and mass war crimes around the world.

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Speaker 2: In response to each incident of those, on many incidents

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Speaker 2: of those, there were kind of temporary international courts that

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Speaker 2: got set up to try people involved, So like the

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Speaker 2: Nuremberg trials of Nazi officials after World War II, or

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Speaker 2: there was a UN court that was set up following

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Speaker 2: the conclusion of the Rwandan genocide in the nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 2: and eventually it became clear and there became an agreement

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Speaker 2: that they needed to be a permanent fixture for these

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Speaker 2: kinds of cases.

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Speaker 1: In terms of the jurisdiction of the ICC, does this

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Speaker 1: sort of act as a replacement for countries' own courts

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Speaker 1: or is this a higher court? How does that all work?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting to note it's not set up to

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Speaker 2: be a replacement for country's own courts. They are still

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Speaker 2: meant to, if possible, try people within their own countries

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Speaker 2: for crimes. But the ICC eventually will get involved. It

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Speaker 2: says when countries are quote unable or unwilling to try

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Speaker 2: their own genocide and war crimes cases, and it's prosecutors

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Speaker 2: carry out investigations, they assemble evidence, and then they will

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Speaker 2: present the case against a person, who of course has

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Speaker 2: their own defense lawyers as well.

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Speaker 1: So we've heard about the kind of you know, international

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Speaker 1: war crimes and courts set up to try people throughout

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century. That big example. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people know about the Nuremberg trials of Nazi officials

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Speaker 1: after World War Two, since the ICC was established. What

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Speaker 1: kinds of cases has it tried?

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Speaker 2: So the cases that it prosecutes are generally those committed

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Speaker 2: in the context of a war, but it can also

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Speaker 2: prosecute people accused of genocide. Some examples of convictions include

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Speaker 2: Bosco Taganda, who was a military leader from the Democratic

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Speaker 2: Republic of Congo who was convicted on multiple counts of

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Speaker 2: war crimes and crimes against humanity. His associate, Thomas Lubanga,

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Speaker 2: was convicted of using child soldiers, and in more recent years,

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Speaker 2: President Vladimir Putin actually has an active warrant out for

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Speaker 2: his arrest from the ICC over alleged war crimes committed

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Speaker 2: in Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think for a fair few of our listeners, maybe

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Speaker 1: the ICC is a body that was not on their

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Speaker 1: radar until even those crimes in Ukraine, when Putin was

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Speaker 1: famously named in this warrant for his arrest. You have

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Speaker 1: mentioned war crimes before we get any deeper into this, though,

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to understand what that actually means. Lucy.

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Speaker 1: How do we define a war crime?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting kind of definition, and certainly it

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Speaker 2: wasn't something that I had ever thought about before that

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Speaker 2: Putin story. I remember very well the day that that

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Speaker 2: news broke, and we had to kind of figure out

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Speaker 2: what has Putin been accused of and what is the

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Speaker 2: actual legal meaning of this. What it turned out is

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Speaker 2: that there's no one document with a definitive list of

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Speaker 2: what a war crime is. Our understanding of them is

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Speaker 2: based on a collection of different international laws and treaties

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Speaker 2: and UN conventions. That includes the Hague Conventions, which focus

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Speaker 2: on rules of combat, and it also includes the Geneva Conventions,

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Speaker 2: which you've probably heard of, which focus on protecting people

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Speaker 2: who are not active combat participants, so that's civilians and

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Speaker 2: prisoners of war. The ICC's definition of war crimes includes

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Speaker 2: breaches of the Geneva Conventions. That's things like killing civilians, torture,

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Speaker 2: taking hostages, depriving rights to prisoners of war, and it

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Speaker 2: includes other kinds of violations like attacking non military buildings

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Speaker 2: like churches and universities, and degrading treatment. That's another thing

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Speaker 2: to remember for later.

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Speaker 1: So with all that context in mind, that brings us

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Speaker 1: to this week the announcement that the ICC's top prosecutor

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Speaker 1: is seeking arrest warrants of leaders in Israel and Hummas.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about that announcement.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll start with Hummas, which Karim Khan's statement starts with.

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Speaker 2: So Karim Khan is the head prosecutor at the ICC.

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Speaker 2: He announced he's seeking arrest warrants basically a way to

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Speaker 2: force people to appear at court for three Hamas leaders.

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Speaker 2: So that's Yaya Sinhwa, who's Hamas's leader in Gaza, Mohammad

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Speaker 2: diab Ibrahim al Masri who's Hamas's military leader, and Ismail

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Speaker 2: Hanie who is Hamas's political leader.

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Speaker 1: So what specifically are these Hamas leaders actually accused of

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Speaker 1: in this instance?

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Speaker 2: There are three main groups of accusations. The first is

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Speaker 2: around the killing of hundreds of civilians in Hamas's attack

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Speaker 2: on Israel on the seventh of October twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 2: The second is around the taking of hostages on that day,

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Speaker 2: and the third is around the treatment of those hostages.

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Speaker 2: The first group of allegations includes a word that I'd

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Speaker 2: never seen in illegal context before, which is extermination, which

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Speaker 2: is a war crime defined as the intentional destruction of

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Speaker 2: part of a population. And those allegations also include murder

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Speaker 2: as a war crime and sexual violence as a war

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Speaker 2: crime in the attack that killed those hundreds of people

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Speaker 2: on seven October. The second group of accusations is around

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Speaker 2: taking hostages, like literally just that idea of taking hostages

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Speaker 2: is a war crime. It's not really in dispute that

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Speaker 2: about two hundred and forty five people were taken on

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Speaker 2: October seventh by Hamas, and it's believed around one hundred

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Speaker 2: and thirty three still remain in captivity. Khan said returning

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Speaker 2: these hostages was quote a fundamental requirement of international humanitarian law.

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Speaker 2: The third set of allegations is that hostages in captivity

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Speaker 2: have been subject to sexual violence, rape, torture, and quote

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Speaker 2: outrages on personal dignity. So that would be that sort

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Speaker 2: of degrading treatment that we talked about earlier by Hamas.

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Speaker 1: So Hamas is an organization, right, and you know in

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Speaker 1: Western democracy is seen as a terrorist organization, but specifically

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Speaker 1: in Gaza, HAMAS is, pre October seven, the organization that

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Speaker 1: runs a lot of governmental function in Gaza. So given

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Speaker 1: that this is an organization, why are these three people

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Speaker 1: specifically being held responsible, what do we know about them?

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Speaker 2: So Khan alleges that not only did these three men

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Speaker 2: plan the October seven attack, they also made quote personal

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Speaker 2: visits to hostages acknowledging their responsibility for those crimes. And

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Speaker 2: in this statement they're named as both perpetrators of these

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Speaker 2: crimes and leaders responsible for the actions of those under

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Speaker 2: them perpetrating crimes. The investigation into Hamas's behavior involved Khan

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Speaker 2: visiting the sites of attacks, speaking to eyewitnesses and survivors,

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Speaker 2: and verifying footage, and Khan said that his visits to

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Speaker 2: the sites of attacks and interviews with survivors showed that

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Speaker 2: quote the deepest bonds between a parent and a child

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Speaker 2: were contorted to inflict unfathomable pain through calculated cruelty and

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Speaker 2: extreme callousness. So really some very strong allegations there.

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Speaker 1: So those are the allegations against the three Hamas leaders

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Speaker 1: who Kan is seeking an arrest warrant for. We know,

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Speaker 1: of course as well that Khan is seeking to arrest

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Speaker 1: some of Israel's leadership. What are the allegations made against Israel.

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Speaker 2: So the allegations made against net Yahu and Galant are

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Speaker 2: also you can separate them into three key groups, and

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Speaker 2: some of the allegations are the same for both Hamas

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Speaker 2: and Israeli leadership. I should say so that charge of

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Speaker 2: extermination as a war crime has been laid against both

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Speaker 2: Hamas and Israel's leadership. So the first set of allegations

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Speaker 2: against Israel, they're really the key one, I think, is

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Speaker 2: that its leaders are intentionally starving and mistreating Palestinians in Gaza, quote,

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Speaker 2: depriving the civilian population of objects indispensable to human survival.

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Speaker 2: And Khan alleged that Israel's closure of three border crossings

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Speaker 2: into Gaza and quote arbitrary restriction of essential supplies art

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Speaker 2: crimes against civilians caught up in this war. Secondly, there

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Speaker 2: are allegations that Israel has quote intentionally directed attacks against civilians,

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Speaker 2: and Khan listed examples including alleged attacks on people queuing

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Speaker 2: for food and on aid workers. And the third big

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Speaker 2: allegation I think is persecution. So that's targeting a group

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Speaker 2: based on national, ethnic, cultural, or religious or gender grounds.

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Speaker 2: Again similar to the allegations laid against the Hammas leaders.

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Speaker 2: Nanyahu and Gallant are named in this warrant because Khan

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Speaker 2: believes they are the quote most responsible for what's happened.

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Speaker 1: So that's Gland as the Defense minister and Ntya who

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Speaker 1: as the Prime minister.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So following the Hamas attack, Netnya, who formed what

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Speaker 2: he's called his War Cabinet, which is kind of an

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Speaker 2: emergency decision making body at the heart of the Israeli government,

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Speaker 2: and Galant is a key part of that. Again, just

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Speaker 2: like with the harmas charges, Khan and his office collected

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Speaker 2: evidence by speaking to witnesses, survivors. They spoke to doctors

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Speaker 2: and aid workers. They verified footage, including satellite images, and

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Speaker 2: based on that can't said the evidence showed quote the

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Speaker 2: effects of starvation are acute, visible and widely known. They

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Speaker 2: include malnutrition, dehydration, and profound suffering. Once karnt his office

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Speaker 2: had collected all of the evidence, they presented it to

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Speaker 2: an independent panel to evaluate if arrest warrants should be issued,

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Speaker 2: and that panel included former ICC judges and human rights

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Speaker 2: law experts who agreed unanimously that Khan should proceed with

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Speaker 2: seeking arrest warrants.

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Speaker 1: So extremely from the sounds of it, kind of thorough

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Speaker 1: investigation from the ICC into both sides, and I think

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Speaker 1: the fact that there has been sort of these allegations

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Speaker 1: leveled at both sides speaks to that. But what's the

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Speaker 1: response being like now that this is out there in

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Speaker 1: the world. Have we heard from Israel? What of must say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Natanna, who called the ICC's actions quote a moral

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Speaker 2: outrage of historic proportions and a travesty of justice. He

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Speaker 2: absolutely refused any comparisons between the quote democratically elected leaders

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Speaker 2: of Israel and Hamas's leaders. A senior Hamas official told

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Speaker 2: Reuters that the ICC's move equates the victim with the executioner,

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Speaker 2: and US President Joe Biden actually echoed Netnyahu's comments. He

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Speaker 2: said that the request for warrants was quote outrageous, and

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Speaker 2: he rejected any equivalence between Israel and Hammas.

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Speaker 1: I think also worth pointing out there, you know, having

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Speaker 1: heard such strong comments from Biden in response to this

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Speaker 1: ICC statement, that the US is not actually a member

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Speaker 1: of the ICC. So, given that close relationship, the allyship

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Speaker 1: between Israel and the US, if this arrest warrant were

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Speaker 1: to be granted, netna who could hypothetically free travel between

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Speaker 1: Israel and the US without being arrested? Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And also it's important to note that

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor's application for arrest warrants doesn't mean like these

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Speaker 2: people are arrested tomorrow. First, the application has to be

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Speaker 2: approved by a panel of three judges and Israel isn't

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Speaker 2: a member of the ICC either, so any warrant, if approved,

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Speaker 2: would have no effect within Israel's borders or the US's borders.

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Speaker 2: As you've said, Katar is not a party which has

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Speaker 2: been involved in negotiations between Israel and Hamas, so that

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Speaker 2: won't stop anyone on either side from traveling to and

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Speaker 2: from those negotiations. But if any of those leaders were

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Speaker 2: to enter an ICC party country like Australia or the UK,

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Speaker 2: Australia and the UK would have to arrest them under

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Speaker 2: their obligations to the ICC.

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Speaker 1: And in terms of a real time example of that

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Speaker 1: playing out, you know elsewhere in the world. That's why

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Speaker 1: we've kind of seen Putin since more in Ukraine. He's

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Speaker 1: very careful with his movements. He doesn't travel to ICC countries,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't leave Russia often at all. Yeah, and that's

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Speaker 1: because if he goes to the quote unquote wrong country,

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Speaker 1: he would be arrested because those member parties would be

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Speaker 1: compelled to bring him into custody.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And one last thing I think I should

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Speaker 2: note is that the proceedings of the International Criminal Court

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Speaker 2: are famously slow. Judges and lawyers have a huge amount

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Speaker 2: of evidence to weigh, and that's assuming they can even

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Speaker 2: get the accused to court in the Netherlands. Like we've

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Speaker 2: just explained, and Kh't made it clear his investigations are

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Speaker 2: still ongoing and more people could have arrest warrants issued

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Speaker 2: for more allegations.

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Speaker 1: Lucy, thank you so so much for updating us. That

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Speaker 1: was incredibly helpful for me, and I'm sure many many

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Speaker 1: of us listening also learnt something. If that was you

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Speaker 1: but until then, have a fabulous day.

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