1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: Hello there, it's Amantha. 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 2: I'm currently on a Christmas break, so I've handpicked a 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 2: bunch of my favorite episodes from the last year to 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 2: share with you. Okay, on with today's best of episode. 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 2: About four years ago, I was sitting in an airbanb 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: in New York, and instead of being out exploring the city, 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 2: I was curled on the couch reading a book called 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 2: Essentialism by Greg McEwan. You know when you read a 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: book and it transforms the way you think about something, Well, 10 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: that's what. 11 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: Essentialism did for me. 12 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 2: And when I think about that book, I think about 13 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 2: how it really made me prioritize what I choose to 14 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 2: work on. And it also turned me into a huge 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 2: Greg McEwan fan. 16 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: And when I found out that. 17 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: Greg had written a new book called Effortless, I was 18 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 2: beyond excited to read it. And I was even more 19 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: excited when Greg said yes to my invitation to be 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: on How I Work. So, if you have ever struggled 21 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: your way through a really tough project. 22 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 3: Or if you're maybe feeling like you're working harder than 23 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 3: ever before, but maybe you don't have the results to 24 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 3: show for it, I think you are going to love 25 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 3: this chat with Greg, we talk about some really practical 26 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 3: strategies to make hard work well effortless. My name is 27 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 3: doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder 28 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 3: of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this. 29 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: Is how I work a show about how to help 30 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 2: you do your best work. 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: So writing a book is hard work. 32 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: And I know this because I'm currently working on my 33 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: third one, which Greg and I actually talk about during 34 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: this interview. But I always keen to know from Greg 35 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 2: how did he go about writing his latest book effortless 36 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: and make that process effortless for himself? 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 4: Well, there were some things that I did that made 38 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 4: it a lot harder than it needed to be. An 39 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 4: example is is any day that I worked beyond let's 40 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 4: say three hours as a max. You know, if I 41 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 4: tried to do four hours or six hours or longer, 42 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 4: I didn't just hit diminishing returns, I'd hit negative returns. 43 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 4: So diminishing returns is where every unit of effort you 44 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 4: put in you're getting a little less back. But negative 45 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 4: returns arewhere for every unit of effort you're putting in, 46 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 4: you're actually getting. 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 5: A worse overall result. 48 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 4: So you know, the manuscript is getting worse than it 49 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 4: was before I started that day. You know, you're you're 50 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 4: you're going backwards. And so I learned that I needed 51 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 4: to get the pace right. So so I said, okay, 52 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 4: you know, every day, I'm going to work on it. 53 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 4: Five days a week. I will open the Google doc. 54 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 4: That's my minimum standard. I will go into it. But 55 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 4: the maximum, okay, never more than three hours. We're just 56 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 4: going to you know, resolve it that way. Similar upper 57 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 4: and lower bounds for the number of words written, you know, 58 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 4: never less than one hundred words, but never more than 59 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 4: five hundred words. You know, you're trying to make sure 60 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 4: that you don't use up more mental energy. Then you 61 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 4: can recuperate each day that you're not using up more 62 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 4: mental energy this week, then you can recuperate this week. 63 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 4: Why because you want to be able to sustain the 64 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 4: pace and get the you know, get the job done. 65 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 2: Talking about the upper and lower bounds idea which I 66 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: found really interesting in terms of going, okay, well, this 67 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: is the minimum I have to do in a day, 68 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: and this is also the maximum. How did you go 69 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: about setting those upper and lower bounds for yourself? 70 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 4: If you're trying to find the right pace, you just 71 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 4: have to create some self awareness as to what is 72 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 4: your optimal input on whatever project you're working on. So 73 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 4: for me, you know, I had to keep asking the question, 74 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 4: how can I make this as effortless as possible to 75 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 4: write a book that can have a significant impact. You know, 76 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 4: I'm not changing the goal, I'm not changing the aspiration, 77 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 4: but I'm trying to constantly challenge myself in finding a 78 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 4: better strategy. Another thing that I did was to try 79 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 4: to make sure that I had the right. 80 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 5: Team working with me. 81 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 4: People that I had a high trust relationship with, so 82 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 4: I trust their work, trust their research. An editor who'd 83 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 4: worked with me on Essentialism before effortless, you know, working 84 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 4: with her again, I trust is so high she can 85 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 4: go in and work on it. There were times when 86 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 4: we'd be working in this same you know, shared dot together, 87 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 4: or the same time a researcher Jonathan Cullen, who would 88 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 4: be bringing. 89 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 5: In stories specifically that. 90 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 4: I'd asked him to go and gather Italia. My editor 91 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,559 Speaker 4: would be working on a section that I'd previously written 92 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 4: the day before, and it was almost like a Harry 93 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 4: Potter esque scene where you could see everybody working seamlessly together. 94 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 4: And there were so many moments like that through the 95 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 4: process that I thought, this is effortless. You know, it's 96 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 4: effortless on effortless, it's just amazing to watch this team 97 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,679 Speaker 4: working together and to enjoy it so much. 98 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: Now, what's the question that you recommend asking when you're 99 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 2: feeling overwhelmed by what you have to work on to 100 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: help sort of raset our thinking. 101 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 4: Well, I think that you can invert the typical overachiever. 102 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 5: Mindset. 103 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 4: So let's set some context here. I wrote this book 104 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 4: for what my brother Justin calls the hit squad. This 105 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 4: is for people who are hard working, intelligent, talented, right, 106 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 4: that's the hit squad part of it. 107 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 5: This is who the book is for. 108 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 4: And you know that's who's listening to this conversation right now. 109 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 4: These are people who want better results continually. In fact, 110 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 4: probably nobody listening to this would mind if they could 111 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 4: have ten x results, ten x results in their career, 112 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,799 Speaker 4: in their relationships, in their business, if they're running a business, 113 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, that would be fine. They aspire 114 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 4: to significant breakthrough results. The complication is that there's not 115 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 4: one of them, not one person listening to this can 116 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 4: work ten times harder. And it's that contradiction or that 117 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 4: creates this challenge because if you want better results, but 118 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 4: you're already running out of space, already pushing yourself to 119 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 4: the limit or sometimes well past it, and then you say, well, 120 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 4: I'm not getting the results I want, therefore I need 121 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 4: to push even harder. Then what you do is burn 122 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 4: out and you still don't get the results that really 123 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 4: matter so much to you. Now, contrast that with what 124 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 4: I'm arguing in Effortless, which is, you know, what if 125 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 4: you could make the trivial things in your life harder 126 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 4: but the essential things significantly easier, well, the value proposition 127 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 4: there is. 128 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 5: That you. 129 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 4: That you could achieve the results you want, the breakthrough 130 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 4: results you want, but not only without burning out, but 131 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 4: also with an upgrade in your lifestyle that you enjoy 132 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 4: the experience more all. 133 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 5: Along the way. 134 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 4: You know, that's who Effortless is for, and that's why 135 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 4: I wrote it. 136 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: And what's that key question that you talk about it 137 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: in the book in terms of something we can ask 138 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: ourselves to help reset our thinking when we are feeling 139 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: really overwhelmed by what we're working on. 140 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 4: I think the question you're pointing to is just how 141 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 4: can I make this effortless? How can I make this easy? 142 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 4: It's not something that I would advocate everybody ask. If 143 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 4: somebody is not putting in any effort at all, then 144 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 4: there's a lot of upside to just you know, getting up, 145 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 4: getting off you behind and going and getting on with 146 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 4: the job at hand. I mean, there's a lot of 147 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 4: results you can improve. I'm fully in. 148 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 5: Favor of effort. I believe in it myself. 149 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 4: I believe in it for my children, I believe in 150 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 4: it for the businesses I've worked with and built. Nevertheless, 151 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 4: as I already said that, there's this limit. So one, 152 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 4: when we ask a better question, we get a better answer. 153 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 4: And so simply by inverting the question we normally ask, 154 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 4: which is how can I get better results by working harder? 155 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 4: You say, how can I get better results by making it, 156 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 4: you know, as easier? What? 157 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 5: What if? What would this look like if it was easy? 158 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 4: And I remember working with someone in you know, perfect 159 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 4: example of someone in the hit squad, who is the 160 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 4: type of person she said, who's up till four in 161 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 4: the morning photo shopping for a youth activity at church 162 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 4: the next day and no one's asking her to do that, 163 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 4: But that's you know, she's just wanting better results and 164 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 4: thinking the only way to it is relentless self sacrifice. 165 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 4: And she even feels if she eats lunch that she 166 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 4: feels guilty. And so I said, well, look ask this, 167 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 4: you know, invert, invert this, break out of that paradigm, 168 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 4: out of that mindset. Let's see if there is you know, 169 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 4: what would happen if you asked that question? How can 170 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 4: this be effortless? You want a great result, but how 171 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 4: can you do it in an easier way? And she 172 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 4: gets a call then from a professor she works at 173 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 4: a university who wanted her to record a semester worth 174 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 4: of his class, and she just almost automatically jumped into 175 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 4: the overachiever of mindset. I'm going to get three different 176 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 4: cameras in the room, so we'll get different angles. We'll 177 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 4: edit it all together, we'll have intros and outros, graphics, slides, music, Well, 178 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 4: we'll just wow him. And then she remembered the coaching 179 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 4: and she said, okay, invert this. Can I get the 180 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 4: result that he wants with it in an easier way? 181 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 4: And so then she started asking questions around that. Well, 182 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 4: in just a few minutes of talking with him, she 183 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 4: discovered that This was really for one student who just needed, 184 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 4: you know, to have a few of the classes because 185 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 4: he's going to be missing them for an athletic commitment. 186 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 4: And the solution they came up with was just have 187 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 4: another student record it on their iPhone and send it 188 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 4: to him whever he was going to miss. The professor 189 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 4: was delighted. He hadn't thought about that because he was 190 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 4: over complicating it. 191 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 5: And she puts hangs up. 192 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 4: From the phone and she says, I just saved four 193 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 4: months of time for an entire team for the sake 194 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 4: of ten minutes with this inverted question. So that's the question, 195 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 4: how can I make this essential thing effortless? 196 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: I love that. 197 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 2: Now in the book you talk about how Richel's habits 198 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 2: that we've put our. 199 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: Thumb print on, and I love that way of thinking 200 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 1: about rituals, and. 201 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: I want to know what are some of your work rituals. 202 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 4: One ritual that I picked up from another entrepreneur is 203 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 4: that if I'm going to have a lot of phone 204 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 4: calls to make with people, you know, I may just 205 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 4: literally go and sit in the hot time and call 206 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 4: them all back. You don't have to be you know, 207 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 4: you don't have to be so formal about it all, 208 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 4: and it turns what could just feel a bit like 209 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 4: drudgery into something that's funny, and I tell people and 210 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 4: it's not a secret, and we just laugh about it 211 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 4: and we get the job done still, but it's in 212 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 4: a more enjoyable environment. And so you know, that's the 213 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 4: idea is to splice together something that previously you thought, well, 214 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 4: it's essential, but it's drudgery, and you say, well, well 215 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 4: what if you could combine it with something enjoyable you 216 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 4: want to do anyway, and you create a ritual from it, 217 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 4: so then you actually look forward to doing it. 218 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: I love that hot tub example. 219 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 2: What are some other things like I'm thinking of email 220 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 2: for example, that is definitely a non enjoyable task for 221 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: many people. Have you cracked making email more enjoyable. 222 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 4: I have a friend who's amongst the most highly productive 223 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 4: people I have you know, I've ever met. I don't 224 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 4: even quite know how he does. Everything he accomplishes is 225 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 4: pretty remarkable. And one of the things he does when 226 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 4: he is he's very responsive in email. If I respond, 227 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 4: if I email him, he might email me within two minutes. 228 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 4: He's very responsive, but he'll be very, very succinct in 229 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 4: his answer, So he's not carrying the burden. You know, 230 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 4: when somebody sends you an email and you're like, oh, 231 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 4: I don't know what to say about that. Yes, right, 232 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 4: and then you hold on to that and it sits 233 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 4: in your inbox. 234 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 5: I've been guilty of this. 235 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 4: I've had email sit in my inbox for days, weeks, 236 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 4: months sometimes and you process it ten times, twenty times 237 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 4: sometimes because you keep seeing it. 238 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I've got it. 239 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 4: I don't know what to do about it, and then 240 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 4: you move on to something else, and then eventually, oh, sorry, 241 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 4: I didn't get back to you, you know, and you 242 00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 4: don't say it, but dot dot dot, I haven't known 243 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 4: what to say all this time. It's and you take 244 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 4: that email task and you make it ten times harder 245 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 4: than this friend of mine deals with it. He deals 246 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 4: with it instantly. And so since since my last exchange 247 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 4: with them, I thought, yeah, I've got to process email 248 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 4: differently in the next Literally, since then, I've just made 249 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 4: I've just been decisive about every single thing and just 250 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 4: responded quickly. And I thought there's something quite nice about 251 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 4: about getting a quick response from someone and not just 252 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 4: having it disappear and never know whether you're going to 253 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 4: hear back from them again and I found it. You know, 254 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 4: it's a hyper efficient way of dealing with email. 255 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: Hey there, Amantha here. 256 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: We're going to get back to Greg in a moment, 257 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: and in the next part of this interview, Greg gives 258 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: me some advice on how to make a big project 259 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: that I am working on much much easier. And if 260 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 2: you're enjoying how I work, make sure you connect me 261 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: on these socials because I post quite a bit of 262 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 2: extra content there. So hunt me down on LinkedIn, look 263 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: for Amantha Inverra I think I'm the only one. Or 264 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: follow me on Twitter at Amantha or on Instagram, which 265 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 2: I'm getting back into for various reasons, and you can 266 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 2: find me there at Amantha Eye. You talk about reducing 267 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: the lag indicator for essential activities and a reward. 268 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: Can you give an. 269 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: Example of how you've applied that concept to your work, 270 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: whether it be with your writing or consulting or something 271 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: like that, maybe even with writing the book like because 272 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: that can be you know, fairly grunt work ish, day 273 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 2: after day hitting a word count. I'm right in the 274 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: middle of that process. 275 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 4: Myself, so with rating. 276 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm working on my third book at the moment 277 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: and on a fairly tight deadline. 278 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 4: And you're feeling and you're feeling the stress of it. 279 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 2: I am like, I've I've got a calendar on my 280 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: whiteboard that literally says how many words I want to 281 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: have written by the end of each week in order 282 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 2: to hit my deadline in October, And. 283 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: Like every day like I enjoy the writing. 284 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: But then some days it's like, oh, I'm doing this 285 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: just so I don't fall behind. 286 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: And I'd love to know, like maybe if you have 287 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: any advice for. 288 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 2: Me on how I can you know, either like reduce 289 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: the lag indicator, because suddenly, come October, I'm going to 290 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: be feeling really happy because I'm going to be submitting 291 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: a complete manuscript. 292 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: But right now I'm in the thick of it, and I've. 293 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: Got all these things that I need to do and 294 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: research and write about, and I feel overwhelmed and like 295 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,239 Speaker 2: it doesn't feel terrible, but it doesn't yet feel effortless, 296 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: and like, you know, I feel good when I hit 297 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: my word count for the day, but it can feel 298 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 2: like hard work on some mornings. 299 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: So what should I do? Greg? 300 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, I got to ask a couple more questions about it. 301 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 4: How are you on a scale of one to ten 302 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 4: on your like your energy level right now, like your 303 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 4: overall physical fatigue. I'm good, I'm good, yes, sleeping well, 304 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 4: very resting, well, you're relaxing well. Yeah, So then you 305 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 4: come to do the job. Which part is hard? Is 306 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,959 Speaker 4: it the thought about writing? Like you go, oh, I've 307 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 4: got to do that again. 308 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: I think it's the idea that I have to write 309 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: this book, but I also have to do my job 310 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: in terms of my full time job. My hours have 311 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 2: not increased in terms of what I do within my 312 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: consultancy inventium, but now all of a sudden, sixty thousand 313 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 2: words have to appear from nowhere by October nineteen. 314 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 4: So I write. 315 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 2: I write every day as part of my job, and 316 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 2: so you know, I enjoy the process of writing most days, 317 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 2: although some days I'd prefer to be doing something else. 318 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: And so it's just kind of going, oh, gosh, I've 319 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 2: got this huge extra project that I have to do 320 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: along with everything else that I'm working on, and sometimes 321 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 2: that can feel a little bit overwhelming. 322 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I can imagine. Is that sounds like that. It's 323 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 4: the I mean, even what you just said that the 324 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 4: sixty thousand words that alone just feels like, Oh, my goodness, 325 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,959 Speaker 4: I'm really going to get sixty thousand words done. So 326 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 4: what do you do now? Tell me your current process. 327 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 2: What I do now is the very first thing I 328 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 2: do on almost every workday, unless I've got a commitment 329 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: like a keynote or or something that is not movable 330 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 2: in terms of time, is that I will write but 331 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 2: between one thousand to fifteen hundred words per day, and 332 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 2: I will do that five days a week. 333 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 5: There's a lot of words. 334 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: It's it's quite a lot of words. 335 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 2: But having said that, a lot of the research has 336 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 2: been done, so that makes it a lot easier. 337 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 4: The hardest thing just oh, I've done this for a while. 338 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 4: I'm in the Is it that you're sort of in 339 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 4: the you of the motivational curve where you're halfway done 340 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 4: with it, and so you've already put in a lot 341 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 4: of work which you're not actually close to the end. 342 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 4: It is that the experience you're having. 343 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's it. I absolutely do. Yeah, I 344 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: think I'm right in the middle of it. 345 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: And funnily enough, I'm at about the halfway point of 346 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 2: the first draft. Like I haven't gone through my own edit, 347 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: you know, Littlelone submitted it to my actual editor. 348 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 4: But yeah, I feel, yeah, I. 349 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: Feel like right in the trenches at the moment. 350 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 4: Yes, there's you know, the U curve motivation for those 351 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 4: who don't know about it, is that you feel you 352 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 4: feel more motivated at the beginning of a project and 353 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 4: at the end of a project, and as you get 354 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 4: as you get close to halfway, that's the that's the lowest, 355 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 4: the lowest EBB in any project because you can still 356 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 4: see how much is left to go, but you don't 357 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 4: have the evidence of success because it's not actually finished. 358 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 4: And so so I think it. I think you might 359 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 4: want to construct some sort of reward system for like 360 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 4: the next literally the next two weeks. You know something 361 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 4: that you say, Okay, like what's what's a reward that 362 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 4: you just something that would just be really enjoyable for you. 363 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 5: What do you love to do? Regardless of this, I. 364 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 2: Love to read fiction, and I right now would love 365 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 2: to get a message that would be really nice. That 366 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 2: is not something I've had done in quite a while. Yes, 367 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 2: there are two things that come to mind. 368 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 4: Okay, here's here's you could do this. You say, Okay, 369 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 4: we have ten days worth of work, so not completing 370 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 4: the manuscript, but ten days of hitting your goal. I'm 371 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 4: going to say, for you a thousand words, I'm reducing 372 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 4: your goal, for you a thousand words a day, and 373 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 4: every day you've done a thousand words, count it off. 374 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 4: And I want this graphically in your office so you 375 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 4: can see it. You're like, you're a you know, child 376 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 4: in primary school, and you're marking off each day. And 377 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 4: at the end, you know, okay, at the end of 378 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 4: ten days of doing this, I get a massage. 379 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 5: Okay. 380 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 4: That is one thing that I think you literally could do. 381 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 4: I think on the fiction, I wonder whether even like 382 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 4: you schedule your time to write your book, whether you 383 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 4: don't say, okay, as soon as I hit five hundred words, 384 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 4: I read a chapter of a book that I love. 385 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 4: Right now, just give my brain a little bit of 386 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 4: a break, so you do, like, let's say, how long 387 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 4: does it take you to do your hundred thousand words? 388 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 2: Oh, I'd say sort of nineteen minutes to two hours, 389 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 2: I'd say. 390 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 4: So maybe you say, actually, fine, you do it like that. 391 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 4: You say I'm doing a ninety minute sprint. You don't 392 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 4: even have to call it a sprint. We do a 393 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 4: ninety minute segment, and then I read for ten minutes 394 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 4: out of a book that I am really looking forward to. 395 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 4: So you could have that right on your desk. You 396 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 4: set your time, you say ninety minutes from now, I'm 397 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 4: reading that. Well, you know, I'm just going to keep 398 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 4: going on this with a cycle. There's some really interesting 399 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 4: research that I came across in writing Effortless, which is 400 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 4: done by Anders Eriksson, that he was curious about the 401 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 4: sleep rhythms that we all know about, these ninety minute 402 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 4: rhythms that you have. 403 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 5: Each of us to have a good night's sleep need 404 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 5: three of these cycles. 405 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 4: And he just questioned, like, what if that isn't a 406 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 4: sleep phenomenon, what if it's a human phenomenon, that isn't 407 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 4: just a nighttime thing, but it just a life thing 408 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 4: that we're all just rhythmic beings that they continue into 409 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 4: the day. And he found as he continued this research 410 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 4: that it did continue into the day. And so the 411 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 4: ramification of that is that we should prioritize three pieces 412 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 4: of work in the morning in ninety minute approximately ninety 413 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 4: minute cycles, so that you do your ninety minutes and 414 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 4: you take a break for ten minutes, ten even many 415 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 4: as fifteen minutes you go for a walk. In this case, 416 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 4: you read it fictional. You know, your fiction book, not 417 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 4: at the end of the day only. Okay, well I've 418 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,239 Speaker 4: saved up all day. Now I can read a bit 419 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,959 Speaker 4: of fiction. But you build that into your schedule so 420 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 4: that you take that ten minutes, give your brain a rest, 421 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 4: and you are signaling to yourself going forward, like, hey, listen, 422 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 4: I write, and then I have this enjoyable ritual almost 423 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 4: immediately following it, well, immediately following it. How does that 424 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,719 Speaker 4: sound to you? Does that sound like a nice ritual 425 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 4: for you? 426 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: It does, it does, Greg. I'm excited. 427 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 2: I've been taking notes as you've been talking, and I'm 428 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 2: going to do that from monday. 429 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: I'm loving the sound of that. Yes, thank you. 430 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 4: Yeah. And just to connect the dots here is what 431 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 4: we're trying to do, you know, like, rituals are habits 432 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 4: with a soul. Habits are what we do. Rituals are 433 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 4: how we do them. And if you can create the 434 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 4: right ritual, you enjoy the experience of doing it. I'm 435 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 4: still trying to think for you about what would make 436 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 4: that first ninety minutes, you know, itsself more enjoyable. 437 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 5: Let me ask you this, What. 438 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 4: Are there some days you say, some days you really 439 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 4: enjoy it versus other days it feels more drudgery, right, 440 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 4: which makes sense. I mean there's ups and downs for 441 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 4: all of us. But what is it on the days 442 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 4: that you have enjoyed the experience, what's different for you? 443 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 2: I think one of the things, and I've had this 444 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 2: advice from a couple of guests on the show. I 445 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: think it was Adam Grant and Rachel Botsman, and they 446 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 2: both talked about how they would essentially end their work 447 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: day with this concept of parking on a downhill slope, 448 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: like they would finish work, you know, like if it 449 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: was writing work, it would be mid sentence or mid paragraph. 450 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: And I think when I've kind of when i start 451 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: the day and I've got that momentum, like I've actually 452 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 2: started writing the chunk that I'm going to be working 453 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 2: on the following day, and I've started that the day before, 454 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 2: then it does it kind of feels effortless, like I 455 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 2: can get into flow much more quickly. So that's definitely 456 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 2: something I've noticed. 457 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 4: That puts me in mind. So of course you can. 458 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 4: That's a specific thing you could put into a ritual. 459 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 4: I'd probably encourage you to write up a ritual like 460 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 4: a recipe for you with writing, because yours will be 461 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 4: different to mine, will be different to Adams, like everyone 462 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 4: has their own rituals. And but if you can pay attention. 463 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 5: To your what works for you or you add that 464 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 5: in it. 465 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 4: So we've we've obviously this is now sort of on 466 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 4: our third specific piece of of the the ritual for 467 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 4: you know, for you that you have this on a 468 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,479 Speaker 4: list so that you can keep coming back to it 469 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 4: and tweaking what really works and what and what doesn't. 470 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 4: I think I think that that's that's part of this, 471 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 4: you know, creating a ritual. I John Acuff would be 472 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 4: a great guests at your show if you want to 473 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 4: have him on. He wrote a book recently called Soundtracks, 474 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 4: and he's terrific and and one of the things that 475 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 4: he said is that in his wife came to him 476 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 4: and said, you are you're miserable to be around through 477 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 4: the two years that you write a book. And then 478 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 4: she said, and you're and then you're you're really miserable 479 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 4: to be around for the two years marketing the book afterwards. 480 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 4: And it really challenged him to think, well, how am 481 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 4: I thinking about this work and and you know, many 482 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 4: many writers have read the idea, well, it's easy to write. 483 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 4: All you have to do is, you know, is to 484 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 4: pull up a typewriter and bleed that kind of language, 485 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 4: and the idea that writing is one of the hardest 486 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 4: things you'll ever do, and all that thinking that is 487 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 4: a paradigm, that is a way of thinking, and he 488 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 4: recognized it as such, and he suddenly said, well, I'm 489 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 4: going to choose a new soundtrack. I'm going to choose 490 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 4: a new way of thinking, a new mantra. And the 491 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 4: phrase he pulled was light and easy. That he was 492 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 4: going to try to make writing as light and easy 493 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 4: as possible, and that that's what he'd keep thinking about. 494 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 4: And as soon as he started getting. 495 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, that's right, it's hard, so. 496 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 4: Happy afterwards, but get hard right now, he'd go, hold on, 497 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 4: stop that that's the one way of thinking about this. 498 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 4: What about light and easy? And one of the things 499 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 4: he did in his ritual is he went and bought 500 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 4: a pair of the Nike. 501 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 5: Shoes that were used. 502 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 4: In the the very famous now two hour marathon. You know, 503 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 4: they make big headlines around the world to get it. 504 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 4: The first person who ever ran a marathon under two hours, 505 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 4: and he was wearing these particular shoes they'd created for him, 506 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 4: and you know, they are, of course light and easy. 507 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 4: They're as light as possible, and he wore those every 508 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 4: day that he wrote as a symbolic reminders to reinforce 509 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 4: this new soundtrack, not miserable and you know, blood, sweat 510 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 4: and tears to get this done. 511 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 5: Light and easy. 512 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 4: And so you know, I'm not saying you have to 513 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 4: go buy those shoes. I've never done that, but I've 514 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 4: enjoyed the mantra the soundtrack light and easy. 515 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 2: It reminds me of what you wrote about, but talking 516 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: about what are the minimum steps required for completion? 517 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: And I really loved that concept. 518 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 2: Are you able to talk about how you've applied that 519 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: idea with processes in your work life? 520 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, just to set that up just for 521 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 4: a second, you can. There's all sorts of examples of 522 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 4: this in business. But I interviewed Mike Evangelist, who that's 523 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 4: his real name, but he worked at a DVD burning company, 524 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 4: and this was when DVD burning was brand new by 525 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 4: one of these machines that cost thirty five thousand dollars. 526 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 4: The manual alone was a thousand pages long, you can imagine. 527 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 4: And Apple comes along and says, well, we'd like to 528 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 4: buy that because we want the software that you've built, 529 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 4: and we've got to put that standard on the new Mac. 530 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 4: So they're given a couple of weeks to prepare a 531 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 4: slim lined, streamlined I think as the term, I'm looking 532 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 4: for version of what they've had before. And they just 533 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 4: keep stripping this away, that is stripping it away and 534 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 4: stripping it away, and they're so proud of what they've 535 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 4: been able to do in a couple of weeks. And 536 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 4: they they're ready for the presentation to Steve Jobs, and 537 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 4: he comes into the room. Before they get to the presentation, 538 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 4: he walks up to the whiteboard and he draws the 539 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 4: rectangle and he draws this little you know, square within 540 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 4: it that says burn. And he says, this is. 541 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 5: The app we're going to build. 542 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 4: You just draw, take what you want to burn, you 543 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 4: put it here, and then you click that button. That's 544 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 4: the whole app. And as soon as he did that, 545 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 4: they all felt embarrassed about the deck that they'd prepared. 546 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 4: They never shared the presentation because compared to what he'd 547 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 4: just shown, it looked so complex. There's so many steps 548 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 4: and pieces to it. And that was when he learned 549 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 4: what he thought was a really sort of lifelong, valuable lesson, 550 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 4: which is that Steve Jobs was starting with zero. It 551 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 4: wasn't taking complexity and whittling it down. He was starting 552 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 4: with zero and saying, you know, can I achieve it 553 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 4: in one step? 554 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 5: You know? 555 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 4: And if not one, can I do it in two steps? 556 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 4: But that's the idea, And so from that the goal 557 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 4: is can you solve a problem entirely by having in 558 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 4: a one step thing? Can we remove the steps entirely 559 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 4: instead of streamlining your process, you're saying, let's start from zero. 560 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 4: Can we do the whole thing in one step? So 561 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 4: that's the principle. It's a particular way to approach simplification. 562 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 4: It says Agile talks about it in the manif Agile Manifesto. 563 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 4: It's to maximize the steps not taken. If you can 564 00:31:55,160 --> 00:32:00,959 Speaker 4: do this, you start to remove from yourself the knee. 565 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 4: No matter how easiest step is, it's still harder than 566 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 4: taking no step. In fact, when I was first starting 567 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 4: in the podcast, I remember the team, that production team 568 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 4: sent me a list of instructions that I could send 569 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 4: to guests, and there's like, you know, fifteen steps to it. 570 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 4: I remember reading it myself just going, oh my goodness, 571 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 4: that is overwhelming number of steps. I just thought, there's 572 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 4: no way I can send this out to guests. It's 573 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 4: just too much for them to handle if I can't 574 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 4: even read it. And so I said, okay, what you know, 575 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 4: start from zero was the minimum number of steps someone 576 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 4: would need to take to chat with me on Zencaster. 577 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 4: And once I had the answer, the process was literally 578 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 4: and what I sent to people who said all these 579 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 4: fifteen steps was one click on the link that I'm 580 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 4: going to email you before the interview too. 581 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 5: I'll start and end the recording it. So all you 582 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 5: need to do is chat. That was the instruction. 583 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 4: And so it's a very liberating question to ask, like 584 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 4: just okay, how can we start from zero? How can 585 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,239 Speaker 4: we do this at a minimum number of steps? You 586 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 4: start to realize all the stuff that other people think 587 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 4: needs to happen, including yourself in the past, don't need 588 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 4: to happen. 589 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: That's awesome. 590 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 2: Now time has flown, Greg, and I need to release 591 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: you to the world. So I have one final question 592 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: for people that want to learn more about you and 593 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: get their hands on Effortless, which I highly recommend, such 594 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 2: a great book as well as Essentialism. I still remember 595 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 2: when I read that, I was actually traveling in New 596 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 2: York and I have such a clear memory of reading 597 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 2: that book and fundamentally shifted my thinking on many things. 598 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: So how can people consume more of what you're doing? 599 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 4: Greg Well, I love that you just shared that about essentialism. 600 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 4: These really go together, right. This is like the Paul 601 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 4: McCartney and John Lennon, but both of those artists created 602 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 4: music separately, but it was the magic happened when they 603 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 4: went together. And you know, essentialism is about in one 604 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 4: question is what's essential? You know what is essential and 605 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 4: if it's not essential, don't even do it effortless? Says okay, 606 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 4: how can you take that the essential few and make 607 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 4: those essential few things effortless? And so it's together that 608 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 4: they really I think that the magic can happen. You know, 609 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 4: I would recommend that people come to essentialism dot com. 610 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 4: There's a twenty one day challenge people can take there 611 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 4: which takes you know, the essential things and breaks them 612 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 4: down into small micro adjustments that make this, you know, 613 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 4: easier to do what matters most. There's the What's Essential Podcast. 614 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 4: I just love for your listeners to subscribe to What's 615 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 4: Essential Podcast if they've enjoyed this conversation and come, you know, 616 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 4: come join the party there. And beyond that, I would 617 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 4: just encourage people to maybe maybe listen to the audiobook 618 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 4: version of Effortless so that it can kind of get 619 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 4: a quick overview of the whole arc of the book 620 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 4: and the design of it. And those are a few 621 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 4: options for people. 622 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: Amazing. I will link to all that in the show notes. Greg. 623 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: It has been an absolute joy and privilege chatting to 624 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 2: you and also getting your advice on. 625 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: My book as well. I was very appreciated, so thank you. 626 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 4: So looking forward to the book when it comes out, 627 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 4: and it's been a pleasure being with you, Amanta. Thank you. 628 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: Hello there. That is it for today's show. 629 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 2: If you enjoyed today's episode, why not share it with 630 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: someone else that you think would benefit and maybe get 631 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 2: some useful tips to improve the way that they work. 632 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 2: How I Work is produced by INVENTINGM with production support 633 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 2: from the Dead Set Studios. 634 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: And thank you to Martin Nimba who does the 635 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 2: Audio mix for every show and makes everything sound so 636 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 2: much better than it would have otherwise, see you next time.