1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: If you're a knowledge worker, the quality of your thinking 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 1: ultimately determines the quality of your work. So how do 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: you improve the quality of your thinking? 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: Well, that's a pretty big question now. 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: One person trying to answer that question is Tim Urban, 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: the author of the incredibly successful blog called Wait But Why. 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: Tim writes about everything from careers to the state of 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: American power, to Elon Musk's vision for the future, and 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: of course he writes about thinking and how we can 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: get better at it. Tim shares how to break big, 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: difficult ideas into smaller, more manageable components, and outlines how 12 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: he fights procrastination. 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: My name is doctor amanthe Immer. 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science 15 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: can so Inventium, and this is how I work, a 16 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: show about how to help you. 17 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: Do your best work. 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: One of Tim's most notable public appearances was his ted 19 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: talk about procrastination, which has been viewed by over sixty 20 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: three million people, and if you haven't seen it, if 21 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: you're not one of those sixty three million people, you 22 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: should check it out immediately because it's brilliant. I wanted 23 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: to know whether Tim had developed new strategies for beating 24 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: procrastination since he delivered that Ted talk several years ago. 25 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 3: My life's work is trying to conquer my own procrastination. 26 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 3: So yeah, I like that you said that they're working 27 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 3: because there's a lot of articles on how to beat procrastination, 28 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 3: a lot of advice. And what I find is that 29 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 3: most procrastinators, like myself, read one of those articles, we 30 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 3: get super inspired. 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 4: We think I'm doing this, this is it, I'm doing 32 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 4: that from now on. I'm all set. I just figured on. 33 00:01:58,240 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 4: And then maybe we do it for. 34 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: A day or two, or we don't even do it 35 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 3: at all. Uh, and then and then move back to 36 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 3: where we were right. So what actually works? I think 37 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 3: there's two categories of solution here. One is a picture 38 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 3: that your habits are kind of a boat that you're in, 39 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 3: and if you're a procrastinator, it means something about the 40 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 3: boat's not working well, like there's a there's a leak, 41 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 3: or there's something's broken. And so the two categories of 42 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 3: solution for something like this are you repair the boat 43 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 3: in a permanent way, like you actually fix the thing 44 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 3: and it's fixed, or you you put temporary duct tape 45 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 3: or something over the pole and it's not permanent. 46 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 4: It's not actually fixed. 47 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 3: The boat's still broken, but it's the leak isn't happening 48 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 3: right now because you've you've taped it up for a one. 49 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 3: And so what I've been trying for the obviously ideally 50 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 3: you're the first category where you're actually changing your habits 51 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 3: and you're growing as a human and you're you're not 52 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 3: the way you used to be anymore. And so for 53 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 3: that category, the it's I've been trying to. 54 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 4: A couple of things. I've been trying to remind myself 55 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 4: that even a. 56 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 3: Big you know, we have this idea in the US 57 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 3: at least that forty hours is a good work you know, 58 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 3: eight hour day is a good work day. 59 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,119 Speaker 4: It's like half the half the day. 60 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 3: You know, you have sixteen awaking hours, put in eight 61 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 3: good hours of working done a full day. If you 62 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 3: actually go into most people's offices or most people's workplaces 63 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 3: who say they work forty hours a week, can you 64 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 3: look at what they're actually doing and how much of 65 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 3: that is really on focusing deep focus, on real work. 66 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 3: The number is usually a lot less than forty. And 67 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 3: I would say I've found that I think as a writer, 68 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 3: at least if I put in three deep, focused hours, 69 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,839 Speaker 3: that's a huge that's a great day, like I I I, 70 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 3: but but but it's the psychology is weird where in 71 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 3: my head it's like if I wake up at you know, 72 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: eight thirty, and I think, if I just pulled my 73 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 3: lap up onto the bed and work till eleven thirty, 74 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 3: I'm done. Something about that doesn't It's like the perfectionist 75 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: to me is like, well, no, I have to work 76 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 3: all day. And what I find is that I'll spend 77 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 3: the whole day sitting around working, except I'm like in 78 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 3: this kind of gray areas where I'm supposed to be 79 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 3: working but I'm not, or that I am a little 80 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 3: and then I stop and there's a lot of breaks, 81 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 3: and so it's this kind of gray area, not really playing, 82 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 3: not really. 83 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 4: Working zone that I spend a ton of time. 84 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 3: And I call it the dark playground where you're you're 85 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 3: kind of in leisure time you're not supposed to be 86 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 3: in leasure time. I will, i will put in a 87 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: huge amounts of hours each week, and then I'll find 88 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 3: that in the end, if I really were honest about 89 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 3: how many of those are real hours, it adds up 90 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 3: to about three hours a day at a really good week. 91 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 3: So the point is what I'm trying to get better 92 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 3: at is less of this permanent gray area between work 93 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 3: and play and more like, I am going to get 94 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 3: my three hours done, and the psychology of that to 95 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 3: be like instead of you know, thinking I have this 96 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 3: whole work day ahead. No no, no, If I just wait 97 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 3: three hours, I'm free for the whole day. But really 98 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 3: doing it. Doing those three hours because it compiles that's 99 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 3: fifteen hours a week, that's sixty real hours a month. 100 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 4: You can fly through projects and then genuinely on the 101 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 4: other side of it having time. 102 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 3: So it's turning grades to black and white where you're 103 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 3: not just doing one side of the yin yang, but 104 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 3: you're actually doing the other two. You're genuinely playing when 105 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 3: you're you're not giving yourself guilt free off time where 106 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 3: you're doing high quality stuff and you're having fun in 107 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 3: guilt free fund. 108 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 4: That's it recharges your battery for the hardcore work. 109 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 3: Zone the next day. So it's either going to be 110 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 3: a hardcore work zone or nothing at all. That's where 111 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 3: I'm trying to get That is much more effective than 112 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 3: kind of sitting here all day not. 113 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 4: You know, kind of working. So there's a bunch of things. 114 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 4: I have a bunch of strategies like that. 115 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 3: Now the second pile of strategies is the duct tape, right, 116 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 3: And so what I'm trying to do is while I 117 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 3: build that habit, for example, is I'm trying to duct 118 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: tape the boat into that habit. I have colleague Alisha, 119 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,679 Speaker 3: and she is the wise manager of lots of things, 120 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 3: the one week of why employee, and she does like 121 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 3: a million things. 122 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 4: And one of the things that her job entails is dealing. 123 00:05:55,080 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 3: With my uh flaws and like procrastination. And that's why 124 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: my procrastination has very much become her problem. And so 125 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 3: one of the things one of the things that we've 126 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 3: been doing, which has been great, and again it's treating 127 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 3: myself like a baby, but it sometimes that's what you 128 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 3: need to do, is we have as either in person 129 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: or on slack video nine thirty to twelve thirty, you know, 130 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 3: these three hours in the morning, the three hours I 131 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 3: want to be deep focusing at minimum. We have her 132 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 3: either sitting next to me or she can see my 133 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 3: screen or I share my screen with her on zoo 134 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 3: and she's working on her own stuff. She's not just 135 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 3: staring at my screen, but I me knowing that she 136 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 3: might be looking at my screen, it's enough external pressure 137 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 3: to be like, well, I'm not going to go dick 138 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 3: around right now like someone's watching me, and then I 139 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 3: find get my work done. I mean, she knows exactly 140 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 3: what's supposed to be in my screen and what's not. 141 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 3: I'm not going to go start texting when she's looking 142 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: at my screen. 143 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 4: So I'm just going to work. 144 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 3: And it's not like procrest enters often you don't have 145 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 3: to drag them, you know, clawing and fighting to work. 146 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 4: You just have to give them like a little. 147 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 3: Push when they're like I don't want to It's like, 148 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 3: oh okay, fine, right, So that to me is enough 149 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: of a push to get me to do those three hours. 150 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 3: So again, that's duct taping the boat because I still 151 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 3: if Alicia's not there, then I won't do it. Probably 152 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 3: fixing the boat means I don't need her anymore. I'm 153 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 3: just going to do this because that's what I do, right, 154 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 3: So that's what I'm aiming for. But in the meantime, 155 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 3: I'm having someone who is going to make me feel 156 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 3: ashamed to not be working when it's supposed to be working, 157 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 3: and people do other kinds of duct tape. They'll have 158 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 3: a friend, they owe a friend will they'll pay a 159 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 3: friend some money and that money that that friend's going 160 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 3: to donate that money to a cause they. 161 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 4: Hate if they don't get their stuff done right. 162 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of ways you can kind of 163 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 3: you know, duct take the boat in the meantime, and 164 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: that's that's mostly what I'm doing now. 165 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 4: But I'm my goal in life is to not need 166 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 4: the duct tape anymore. 167 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: Working on let's talk about how do we fix the 168 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: boat so you don't need the duct tape. What are 169 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: some of the strategies that you're working on there to 170 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: get to that utopian work life. 171 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, if you read on you know, books 172 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 3: on habits, you know there's real it's some you know, 173 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 3: this is not some mystery thing. Your brain is a 174 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 3: machine that has automated program that's running at all times. 175 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 3: And that's kind of like sometimes have to go I 176 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 3: will It'll be I'll woken up, come out out into 177 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 3: the kitchen and I'll say, did I brush my teeth? 178 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 4: And I literally don't know. I have to go and 179 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 4: check it. 180 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: The tooth brushes wet because brushing my teeth in the 181 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 3: morning is so automated that my conscious brain doesn't even 182 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 3: have any knowledge whether it happened, just unconsciously, I was 183 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 3: thinking about something and I did it, and you. 184 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 4: Know you usually answers, yes, oh yeah, I did, but 185 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 4: I only remember because it was so it's so unconscious. 186 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 3: Right, So that can be good, or that can work 187 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 3: in our favor or against us. Right, if we have 188 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 3: good habits, that's incredible. Like for example, like I never 189 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 3: have to never procrastinate in brushing my teeth. I never 190 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 3: miss a debt. It's not hard. I don't put any 191 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 3: willpower into it because the automated program hasn't come. And 192 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: so when we have good habits in general, our brain 193 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 3: doesn't put it much resistance. 194 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 4: We just do it. It's just it's just not even 195 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 4: a question mark. 196 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 3: You know, of course we're going to do it, and 197 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 3: just do it and it's over and you don't think 198 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 3: about it. It's it's when you don't have the habit 199 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 3: you have to put in willpower. Now, especially when usually 200 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 3: when you don't have the habit, it's because you have 201 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 3: a bad habit. For a procrastinator, that habit, but you 202 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 3: sit down in the computer to get to your work, 203 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 3: and as soon as you look at the work and 204 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 3: it's this is icky, without even thinking about it, your 205 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: hand will just keyboard shortcut over to the chrome window 206 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 3: or to your texts, and you'll start doing something else 207 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 3: without even thinking about it or you know, like so 208 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 3: you'll just be in a habit of procrastinating at the 209 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 3: beginning of your work block, which then might you know, 210 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 3: when you start procrastinating, it becomes even harder. 211 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 4: The longer you go, the harder it is. See it 212 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 4: out of that and get get to work. 213 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 3: So so I would say that, like, that's what you're 214 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 3: trying to do, is you're trying to have as many 215 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: of the automated programs in your head working in line 216 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 3: with your long term goals as possible. So I think 217 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 3: that if you can get this is part of what 218 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 3: I'm trying to do with. 219 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 4: Alisha is just train my brain to like think, I wake. 220 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 3: Up and procrastination like isn't happening right now, Like fun 221 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 3: is not it's not what's on the menu. 222 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 4: It's not even an option. 223 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 3: Like I'm just like obviously i wake up and I'm 224 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 3: like it sucks, but I'm in workmode and then suddenly 225 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 3: I'm free in the afternoon and get my beau because 226 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 3: you know, before I got into this routine, it would 227 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 3: be the opposite. 228 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 4: I wake up and I love waking up. Ah, there's 229 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 4: my phone and all the things to look. 230 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 3: At on my phone, and then like the way to 231 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 3: make coffee and then maybe take a walk, maybe I'll 232 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 3: call a friend. Like it would seem like oh so much, 233 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 3: and it's like no, no, no, I want to train my 234 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 3: brain to think this is that's later. None of that 235 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 3: stuff happens now. This is this is serious time. So 236 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 3: I think, yes, you want to And when you build 237 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 3: those habits, you don't need the willpower anymore, right, and 238 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 3: so it becomes a lot easier. So it seems like, oh, 239 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 3: this is impossible to maintain these, you know, this kind 240 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 3: of good schedule at first. If you've done it for 241 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 3: a month straight, you will find often that it's kind 242 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 3: of just happening now. 243 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 4: It's not as hard as it used to be. Now 244 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 4: to go one notch a deeper. 245 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 3: Here's like the to me, like the true like long 246 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,719 Speaker 3: term underlying strategy underlying all of this is you have 247 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 3: to change your identity from a procrastinator to a non procrastinator, 248 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 3: you have to change your storyline. You have to convince 249 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 3: yourself that you are someone who doesn't fuck around during 250 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 3: your work block. 251 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 4: I'm the kind of person who just does this. 252 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 3: And I know that not because I think I am, 253 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 3: because I know I am, because I just look at 254 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 3: the last ten weeks, look at the last year. 255 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 4: I'm just just just what I did right now. I 256 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 4: don't have to convince myself I'm someone who brushes my 257 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 4: teeth every morning. 258 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 3: Because I actually am, and I have full confidence, self 259 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 3: confidence that I'm going to do it again tomorrow, and 260 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 3: I'm going to When it comes to will I procrastinate tomorrow? 261 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 4: Will I will? 262 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 3: I will? I work in my work zone right the 263 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 3: way I want to. It's less of a I don't 264 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 3: feel as confident in it now. I view it as 265 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 3: like there's kind of this awareness in your head that's watching. 266 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 3: I call it the spectator, and it's watching everything that 267 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 3: happens and a picture that spectator is betting on, whether 268 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 3: you know. I always think of the you know, the 269 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 3: procrastinator's mind as a rational decision maker and an instat 270 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 3: gratification monkey. 271 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 4: And that's what I talked about in the Ted talk, 272 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 4: and these two. 273 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 3: Characters are battling for control of the wheel and the 274 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 3: procrastinators everyone has that. But the procrastinator's problem is that 275 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 3: the monkey is winning the wrong times. But I don't 276 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 3: think you're either of those. I think that you truly 277 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 3: are behind them. Your spectator is watching this, and if 278 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 3: that spectator thinks the monk he's going to win, the 279 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 3: monkey's probably going to win. That spectator believes no, no, no, 280 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 3: Like I think that the rational, the grown up in 281 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 3: the head, is going to win out here, Probably the 282 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 3: grown up will because that spectator's belief is like self confidence, 283 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 3: and that feeds into what's going to happen. So this 284 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 3: is why I think self fulfilling prophecies are very real. 285 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 3: Like whatever the spectator believes is going to happen usually 286 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 3: does because that's where your confidence lies, and. 287 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 4: The spectator isn't Again, it's just rational. 288 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 3: It's just looking at, well, what happened before, Like if 289 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 3: I procrastinated money through Thursday, the spectator I wake up 290 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: in the morning, and that spectators on Friday thinking this 291 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 3: is you know, deep down, no way, no way am 292 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 3: I going to. 293 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 4: Actually do what I'm supposed to do today. Right there, 294 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 4: When you have that thought, you're probably going to mess 295 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 4: it up. 296 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 3: You're probably not going to do what you're supposed to 297 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: do that day because you don't believe it yourself. 298 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 4: So how do you change that? 299 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 3: Right? How do it? That's this this vicious cycle. That's 300 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 3: why procrastinators get stuck for years. The vicious cycle is 301 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 3: because you believe you're going to fail, so you do, 302 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 3: which enforces the belief that you're going to fail, so 303 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 3: you do again. Right, you have to David has to 304 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: beat Goliath somehow, Right, you have to. 305 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 4: See. 306 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 3: That's why I'm using, for example, my colleague Alisha as 307 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 3: a kind of an assistant in this. I'm trying to 308 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 3: create ways to help David beat Goliath. A few times upset, 309 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 3: and then the spectators start to think, huh, well, maybe 310 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 3: actually here, maybe I've changed, Maybe this is a different 311 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 3: person now, Maybe I am not the procrastinator I used 312 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 3: to be. That's the kind of thinking that can lead 313 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 3: to genuine like I really don't do it anymore. 314 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 4: I just stop doing it one day. 315 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of jumble thoughts because I'm like 316 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 3: I think about this all the time, obviously, but I 317 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 3: think It's like things like you know, you can talk 318 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 3: about habits and stuff all day, but deep down, it's 319 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 3: like you have to just do it enough you start 320 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 3: to believe that I am someone who has changed, and 321 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 3: then you actually will be someone who has changed. 322 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: I'm intrigued that you go straight to habits as opposed 323 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: to purpose when we talk about procrastination. I remember a 324 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: while ago when I had Adam Grant on the show 325 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: and he talked about how he will reward himself after 326 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: doing a chunk of deep focused work, which social media, 327 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: and then I asked him, well, what brings you back 328 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: to your work, Like how do you not get lost 329 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: in that social media spiral? And he says, well, I 330 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: want to work. I'm really clear on why I work 331 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: and I love it and I feel that way about 332 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: my work too. But I procrastinate a lot, and I'm 333 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: curious what role does loving what you do? I mean, 334 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: you write and draw for a living that is most 335 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: people in many people's dream job, and you get to 336 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: do it, yet you're still procrastinating. So where does purpose 337 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: and loving what you do fit in? 338 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 3: My work has a ton of purpose to me? Right, 339 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 3: I feel like you don't feel very lucky to get 340 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: to do what I do, and I feel like it matters. 341 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 3: And so I do feel that way, right, and like 342 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 3: you that that's not enough. 343 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 4: Because here's the thing. The work I had, the work. 344 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 3: I do has a lot of long term meaning, right, 345 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 3: it has macro meaning finishing a blog post and putting 346 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 3: it out feels amazing. 347 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 4: Right, It's this reward you get. But that's not so. 348 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 3: The instant gratification monkey in your head can't think launch. 349 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 4: I can't see that big picture. 350 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 3: So the rational decision maker is this is this prefrontal 351 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 3: cortex part of our brain that can see the big 352 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 3: picture and plan I had. It's this amazing thing that 353 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 3: separates humans from so many other animals. The instant gratification 354 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 3: monkey is much more of an ancient part of your 355 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 3: brain that is shared with a lot of animals that 356 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,359 Speaker 3: wants to that is not in the world it evolved into. 357 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 3: It's like a software program that evolved to live in 358 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 3: a world that we don't live in anymore. So this 359 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 3: idea of writing, working on writing that sometime fourteen months 360 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 3: from that is going to be published as a book, 361 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 3: that part of my brain just like doesn't it can't 362 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 3: get excited about it now a tweet. On the other hand, 363 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 3: I tweet a ton because the tweet is instant gratification. 364 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 3: So and when I tweet, I try to write meaningful 365 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 3: stuff too. The purpose exists there too, and it's much 366 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 3: easier to do and not procrastinate because you get immediate 367 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 3: feedback and mediate reward. Is the rational decision maker knows 368 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 3: about how much purpose and meaning there is, But the 369 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 3: instant gratification monkey isn't that meaning to me? Usually it 370 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 3: comes I don't like the doing the actual work very much. 371 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 3: I love putting the work out there. I love when 372 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 3: I hear that the work resonates with other people, right. 373 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 3: I love when the work connects my brain to other brains. 374 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 3: That doesn't happen while I'm working there. That's just me alone, 375 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 3: And so then the reward's not there yet. The reward's 376 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: all coming later. And so the purpose I can know it, 377 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 3: you know rationally in my head that there's purpose, but 378 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 3: I don't feel it in that primal part. And that's 379 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: the reason that I will go on the internet and 380 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 3: start sticking around as a five minute break, and now 381 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 3: it's four hours later, because it. 382 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 4: Becomes this the instant gratification. 383 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 3: Monkey just wants to resist something that you have to 384 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 3: actually work hard on that's not perfectible. You know, I 385 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 3: once was wondering, I've spent so much time crushing these 386 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 3: hard crossword puzzles, you know, New York Times Saturdays and Fridays, 387 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, why don't I procrastinate on that? Right? 388 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 3: Why is that somehow fun? It's hard? It's a challenge, 389 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 3: right Versus then working on this Microsoft word doc when 390 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 3: I'm trying to figure out how to outline this next section? 391 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 4: Isn't that also a puzzle? 392 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 3: And I think the answer is that it's it's not perfectible. 393 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 3: You know, there's some there's some kind of thing, primal 394 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 3: thing that the crossroad puzzle taps into that the that 395 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 3: you know, working on long term, more abstract stuff just 396 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 3: doesn't that, you know, it doesn't. 397 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 398 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: We will be back with Tim soon where we talk 399 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: about his process for visualizing ideas. And if you have 400 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: read any of Tim's incredibly popular blog posts, you will 401 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: know how amazingly talented Tim is at visualizing ideas to 402 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: make them stick. If you're looking for more tips to 403 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: improve the way that you work, I write a short 404 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered 405 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: that helped me work better, ranging from software and gadgets 406 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: that I'm loving through the interesting research findings. You can 407 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: sign up for that at Howiwork dot code That's how 408 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: I Work dot co. 409 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: I want to dig into the. 410 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: Three hour workday which he just described where you're sharing 411 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: your screen with a lee shot and I love the 412 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: sound of that strategy. What are you doing with the 413 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: other five hours? Like, are you making that more black 414 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: and white? Because you were saying the problem is that 415 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: it's gray and it's this dark playground. 416 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: So what do you do with that other five hours 417 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 2: of the workday. 418 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 4: Well, first of all, there's just always a lot of 419 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 4: stuff to do. 420 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 3: When I say deep focus, I mean it's like to 421 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 3: deep focus on the thing that's most important, right, and 422 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 3: sometimes that's. 423 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 4: Something that's not urgent. You know, have you've heard of 424 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 4: the Eisenhower matrix? 425 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: Yeah? 426 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 4: Right, So it's. 427 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 3: Arranging everything by how urgent it is and how important 428 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 3: it is. You make a square, right, so important is 429 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 3: the top, and then it gets less important as you 430 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 3: go down, and it gets more. 431 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 4: Urgent as you go to the left. 432 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 3: The point is that a lot of times we spend 433 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 3: a ton of our time gets sucked. 434 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 4: Up doing the stuff that's urgent but not important. 435 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 3: So that's emails, that's meetings often you know, sometimes there 436 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 3: you know, it's errands, it's paying bills, it's taking care 437 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 3: of your dogs or your kids. Again, it's not that 438 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 3: this stuff isn't important, but it's stuff that has to 439 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 3: happen urgently and and and the definition of important here 440 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 3: is does it contribute to your long term goals, values 441 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 3: or mission. And usually we spend a lot of this 442 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 3: time doing this urgent stuff. It doesn't actually contribute to. 443 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,479 Speaker 4: Our long term goals, values and mission. 444 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 3: Now, ideally, of course the important stuff would also be urgent, right, 445 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 3: so then you're forced to do the importance. But for 446 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 3: most of us, the really important long term work we 447 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 3: need we want to work on, you know. And you know, 448 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 3: whether it's improving as a person or getting better at 449 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 3: you know, building a new skill, or working on a 450 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 3: book that you've always wanted to write, or trying to 451 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 3: get good at the guitar because you want to put 452 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 3: out an album and that really, we deeply would affect 453 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 3: our happiness if we could just do it. Those things 454 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 3: usually don't have deadlines, on right. Those things often are 455 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 3: very important, but they're not urgent. 456 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: You know. 457 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 3: That can also extend outside work, seeing your family enough, 458 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 3: you know, you know, spending quality time with your your 459 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 3: your family, or going to the gym whatever, that's that's 460 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 3: this this this this important but not urgent pile of stuff. 461 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 3: And that's kind of the thing I think a lot 462 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 3: of us need to be spending that three hours, you know, 463 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 3: just like stuff where it's like this is a sacred 464 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 3: space for whatever. 465 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 4: The most important project. 466 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 3: Is the stuff that's really itchy, to stuff that's really 467 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 3: hard to do, the stuff that like matters that in 468 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 3: thirty years I'll look back and like this will be 469 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 3: part of something that mattered and I'll still know that then. 470 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 3: Right now, if you can do that for three hours, 471 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 3: five days a week, that's huge, right, that's a ton 472 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 3: of time. 473 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 4: Sixty hours a month. I mean, you will make incredible progress. 474 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 3: You can write a whole book just with those three hours, 475 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 3: five days a week in one year, right, even less 476 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 3: for some people. 477 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 4: Outside of that. 478 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 3: Is all the other stuff, right, there's so there's a 479 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 3: huge everyone if you just live in a civilization today, 480 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 3: we have a huge amount of this emails, there's texts, 481 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 3: There's there's bills and errands and things that need to 482 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 3: get done. 483 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 4: There's just your to do list, right, and a lot 484 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 4: of stuff at work. 485 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: You know. 486 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 4: Sometimes it's just you're trying to you want to reorganize 487 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 4: your all your folders. 488 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 3: You want to like, you know, you know, meet with 489 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 3: the developer who's going over your new website. 490 00:20:58,119 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 4: You know, you want to have a. 491 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 3: Meet all that stuff. It's it matters, and it's work 492 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 3: you have to do. But but the three hours is 493 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: reserved for something that if you could just make. 494 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 4: Progress on it, your whole life would be totally changed. 495 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 3: And if you don't make progress on it, like you'll 496 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 3: really build up long term regrets. 497 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 4: It's this really important project. 498 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 3: So now I'm saying this as if like every day 499 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 3: I do my three hours of like you. 500 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 4: Know work for me. 501 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 3: That for me, the really important thing right now is 502 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 3: finishing this book I've been working on and getting you know, 503 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 3: writing right, writing and putting out making content, creating you know, 504 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 3: the content that I want to put it. That's the 505 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 3: most important stuff. This is a plan, This is a 506 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 3: work in progress, right. I often hear some mistakes on me. 507 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 3: Sometimes I will We'll do it for a while, and 508 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 3: then I'll have a couple early meetings, so then we 509 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 3: won't do it for a couple of days, and then 510 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 3: I find like a week later, oh and then Lisha's like, 511 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 3: you want to get back on the nine thirty three, 512 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 3: and I'm like, yes, but it's easy to kind of 513 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 3: just let it slip. Secondly, it's easy too if I 514 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 3: have made a good a lot of progress to power 515 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 3: through and keep working, which isn't not not isn't necessarily 516 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 3: a bad thing. But I find that it's very hard 517 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 3: to have a streak of good days if I have 518 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 3: one like great, great day, you know, as weird as 519 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 3: that sounds. If I like power through and I work 520 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 3: like six hours, it's really hard to come back the 521 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 3: next day and just do those three. So I'm trying 522 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 3: to stop after three, but I often find myself not stopping. 523 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 4: But yeah, I think I think the way to think 524 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 4: about it. 525 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,959 Speaker 3: Is what this is for me, at least three hours, 526 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 3: five days a week of is sacred time that no 527 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 3: one else And this means when I say deep focus. 528 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 4: I mean you're not on your phone. 529 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 3: Maybe you take a five minute break, you know, each hour, 530 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 3: something that's planned. But like you're not cooking food, you're 531 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: not taking phone calls, you're not checking your email or 532 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 3: anything like you are like, it's like, think of it 533 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 3: as a final exam. You know, you know the zone 534 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 3: you're in when you're you go and do a final 535 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 3: exam right in college or whatever, and you're there and 536 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 3: you're like, you know, it's just like hardcore and you finish, 537 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 3: you're like, ah, done, time's up, right, that's the goal. 538 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 4: That's where you want to get. 539 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 3: Where you're in, like final exam of the three hours, 540 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 3: which means you've all your your whole schedule, your calendar. 541 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 4: Takes this into account. 542 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,719 Speaker 3: Like that is you might as well be you're just 543 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 3: off the map for those hours and you plan everything 544 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 3: around that. And then when that's done, you could say okay, 545 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 3: and now you could say the rest of the day, 546 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 3: you know, you can work on the rest of your life. 547 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 4: Maybe you fail at that and you just procrastinate. It 548 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 4: doesn't matter. 549 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 3: The days already success you already want. And likewise, the week, 550 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 3: even if the week you didn't get all the other 551 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 3: little things done, you got behind your to do list, 552 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,959 Speaker 3: for what really matters, the week is a success. 553 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: I want to talk about visualizing ideas. I feel like 554 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: it's something that you're incredibly well known for, and I 555 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: feel like some of the ways that you've visualized ideas 556 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: in your blog posts, it just I feel like. 557 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 2: They're images that are etched in my head. 558 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: Like I think about the tail end blog post that 559 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: you wrote quite some time ago, and I feel like 560 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 1: I will, you know, semi regularly think about the way 561 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: you illustrated the course of a life and how much 562 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: time we have. What's your approach to firstly deciding what 563 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,959 Speaker 1: concepts you're writing about deserve worthy of an illustration. 564 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's always a question mark, is when to 565 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 3: use writing versus. 566 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 4: Visuals to get a point across. 567 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 3: There's there's certain times for both, right, There's obviously writing 568 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 3: needs to take the meat of the stuff for me 569 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 3: at least, and there's something that writing can do that 570 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 3: visuals can't write like writing you can. There's just you know, 571 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 3: language has has a lot of ability to get certain 572 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 3: things across that that that. 573 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 4: You can't do in a visual. 574 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 3: But if there's certain times when like nothing is like 575 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 3: a good visual Like so for example, with this how 576 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 3: much time you have in your life? I could describe it. 577 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 3: I could say here the number of weeks you have. Here, 578 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 3: the number of months you have, But big numbers were 579 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 3: not very you know, in writing, big numbers don't really 580 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 3: have as much impact if you can, you know, so 581 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 3: like I can say you have forty five. 582 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 4: Hundred weeks the life. 583 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 3: Okay, that kind of sounds like an endless number, and 584 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 3: I'm not endless, but that's like forty five hundred okay whatever. 585 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 3: You know, it doesn't sound that different than if I 586 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 3: said forty five thousand. It's just kind of like some 587 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 3: big number, right. But if I suddenly illustrate it and boom, 588 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 3: you're looking at them all there they are, that's it. 589 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 3: And especially I'll test it out sometimes I would do 590 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 3: something like that and look and say, that looks like 591 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 3: that looks like what the number sounds like. So what's 592 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 3: the point of putting the visual in there. The wording 593 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 3: is going to get the same is going to have 594 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 3: the same effect. But when I've made that particular one, 595 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 3: I looked at it and I said, wow, that is 596 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 3: so much smaller than the number sounds. So that's a 597 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 3: perfect time to do it, right. So I think sometimes 598 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 3: there can be something that's funny, a like a comic 599 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 3: can can be funnier than wording a lot of the time. 600 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 3: Sometimes it can be more sticky and more memorable. So 601 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 3: like I can talk about the instant gratification monkey and 602 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 3: the panic monster and the rational decision maker all I want, right, 603 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 3: But if it's just these long words, these terms versus 604 00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 3: a visual boom, it can stick. 605 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 4: Okay. 606 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 3: So so a visual can help it be, can help 607 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 3: something come through that that it's not going through writing. 608 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 3: It can help make things clearer, and it can help 609 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 3: it be more memorable. So for me, I'm always there's 610 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 3: no formula as I'm writing. I'm always thinking about you know, 611 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 3: I don't want to do a visual just for the 612 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 3: sake of doing it. Would would a visual help here? 613 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 3: What a visual will help a lot here? Would it 614 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 3: make things better? Can this whole paragraph, this whole section 615 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 3: just be is one good visual. 616 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 4: Can be better? I've also made mistakes before. 617 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 3: I've done a visual that is kind of convoluted or 618 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 3: doesn't accomplish that much, and I often and I will 619 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 3: later come back and just look at it and think 620 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 3: like this didn't pop, Like actually I would have just 621 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 3: described this concept. I tried to get too cute here 622 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 3: with like a visual that has like four dimensions and 623 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 3: like has all this stuff, and I'm looking and I'm like. 624 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 4: This just didn't work. 625 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 3: And so I'm always trying to get better at that 626 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 3: and like, you know, yeah. 627 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: How does one get better at visualizing things? 628 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,120 Speaker 4: Well, honestly, like I have a again, I'm lucky. 629 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 3: The way my work works is that I try something, 630 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 3: then I publish it, and then if it's not good, 631 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 3: three hundred people are going to tell me how bad 632 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 3: it is, and likewise, and likewise if something's if something's good, likewise, 633 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 3: I can tell which drawings really clicked because I see 634 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 3: them on Twitter. You know, people repost them, people want them, 635 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 3: you know, people talk about. 636 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 4: Them years later. That's the best way I know. 637 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 3: If if a year later, you know, or multiple years later, 638 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 3: I'm still seeing people talk about the visual, I know 639 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 3: that it worked right, it was it did what I 640 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 3: wanted to do. And then other visuals, there's visuals like 641 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 3: there's so that the tail end was like kind of 642 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 3: the second version of a post I did. The first 643 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 3: one was called life and Weeks, which was just the 644 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 3: week's thing before I started talking about time with people, 645 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 3: and I did this, you know, fifty two week by 646 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 3: ninety year grid right, and that I know has clicked 647 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 3: because people have bought poster that I've made with it, 648 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 3: people have bought t shirts and if people talk about it. Meanwhile, 649 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 3: late in that same post, there's this other visual where 650 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 3: I have this like really convoluted ven diagram, and I 651 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 3: have never once heard anyone mention it again or talk 652 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 3: about it or appraise it or tweet it. I've never 653 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 3: And I looked at it and I barely remembered it 654 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 3: was that there you go, So right there, I'm getting 655 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 3: feedback and learning what's good and what's working what's not 656 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 3: in real time by feedback. 657 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 4: So that's huge. 658 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 3: Now, some people obviously don't have that particular thing. Maybe 659 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 3: they write, but they don't have comments on their blog 660 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 3: or whatever. You know, there's a lot of reasons that 661 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 3: you wouldn't be able to get feedback, and I think 662 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 3: it's just experience. 663 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 4: I think, like it's doing a lot of visuals. 664 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 3: Each one you often have an idea of what it 665 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 3: should be, and then as you do it, it evolves 666 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 3: into something different and you just learn so much about 667 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 3: your own skills by doing that. You just you know, 668 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 3: sometimes you stumble upon as you're making a visual upon 669 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 3: like a new idea that you could use with the 670 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 3: visual and then. 671 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 4: You can repeat that in the future. 672 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 3: But you never would have learned that just by like 673 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 3: you know, so I think just a lot of repetition, 674 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 3: and ideally repetition with feedback, yeah. 675 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 4: Helps them. The same thing goes for writing, of course. 676 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 3: I mean the best way to be good at writing 677 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 3: is to write a lot, especially if you can write 678 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 3: a lot. 679 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 4: And get feedback as you go. 680 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 3: I mean, but even just writing a lot in a 681 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 3: journal alone, like, it's just it'll it'll improve, like anything 682 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 3: shooting a basketball a million times, like you'll get better 683 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 3: at shooting the basketball. 684 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: Tim, I wish, I wish I had like all day 685 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,959 Speaker 1: with you because it's it's just been so absolutely inspiring 686 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: connecting with you after having followed your blog for so 687 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: many years. 688 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 2: So thank you so much for your time. For listeners 689 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: that want to consume more Tim Urban and wait for why, 690 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 2: what is the best way for people to do that? 691 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 3: Just my blog way dot com and the email list 692 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 3: is where you like can go to know that a 693 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 3: new post is up, because otherwise I post very sporadically 694 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 3: and it's really annoying to just check the site for 695 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 3: a new post. So go to the site and you 696 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 3: can sign up for the email list there. And then also, 697 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 3: I'm with wy on Twitter. I tweet a lot because 698 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 3: that's what I do, and I'm procrastinating. 699 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: Amazing. Thank you so much, Tim, and thank you for 700 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: spending this last hour with me. 701 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 4: Yes, thank you so much for RepA. 702 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: One of the highlights of this chat with Tim for 703 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: me was his accountability strategy with his assistant Alisha. So 704 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: I recently hired a new assistant who has just started 705 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: working with me, and I'm very keen to give this 706 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: strategy a go. I know that I personally find it 707 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: so helpful to know that I'm accountable to someone other 708 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: than myself when I am. 709 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: Trying to plow through hard, deep work. 710 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventim with production support 711 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. 712 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 2: The producer for this episode was. 713 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: Liam Riordan and thank you tomt Nimba, who the audio 714 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: mix for every episode and makes everything sound so much 715 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: better than it would have otherwise. 716 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 2: See you next time.