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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: the first of April.

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Speaker 2: I'm Emma Gillespie, I'm Zara Seidler. Happy April Fools, them,

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Speaker 2: Happy April Fools.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully no one's getting tricked this morning.

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Speaker 3: Difficult as a news outlet to do April fools. Well,

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Speaker 3: so we're just not gonna try.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to go there.

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Speaker 2: But good luck to everyone. Hats off to you.

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Speaker 1: Australia's most listened to radio show has breached decency standards,

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Speaker 1: according to the media watchdog. The Australian Communications and Media

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Speaker 1: Authority AKMA launched a formal investigation into the Kyle and

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Speaker 1: Jackie Oh Show last year after it received a listener

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Speaker 1: complaint in June. It has now found segments of the show,

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Speaker 1: hosted by Kyle Sandlans and Jackie O Henderson quote would

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Speaker 1: be considered offensive to any reasonable person listening to the broadcast. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to unpack everything you need to know about

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Speaker 1: this investigation, where it came from, what it found, and

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Speaker 1: what it means for this very popular breakfast radio duo.

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Speaker 3: And when I think of Carl and Jackio. I think

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Speaker 3: of this like omnipresent presence. When I went to school

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Speaker 3: on the radio every single day, you know, always being

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Speaker 3: talked about among kids in the school yard, that sort

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Speaker 3: of thing. But I recognize, of course that I grew

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Speaker 3: up in Sydney and that Carl and JACKIEO had this

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Speaker 3: real stronghold over Sydney. But if you grew up in

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Speaker 3: other parts of the country that wasn't necessarily the case.

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Speaker 3: So for listeners who haven't grown up with them in

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Speaker 3: the car or on the bus YEP, what do people

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Speaker 3: need to know about Carl and JACKIEO? And I guess

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Speaker 3: their presence in the Australian radio media scene.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think even if you aren't in Sydney, where

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Speaker 1: they've broadcast for so many years, you're probably familiar with

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Speaker 1: Kyl and Jackio through the lens of controversies, through the

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Speaker 1: lens of headlines. They do broadcast in Melbourne. Now we're

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Speaker 1: going to get recent a little bit into that exactly,

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Speaker 1: but before we dive in, I do think it's important

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Speaker 1: to understand the scale of Kyle and Jackie Oh, the

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Speaker 1: scale of this show. It's a commercial radio breakfast show.

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Speaker 1: Hosted by Kyle who.

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Speaker 2: Is now fifty three.

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Speaker 1: Jackie is fifty on the Kiss network every morning. Now,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, Zara, they are a mainstay of Sydney Radio.

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Speaker 1: They've been working together since two thousand and they've pretty.

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Speaker 2: Much broken in. I wonder it feels like they've been

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Speaker 2: at every point of my life. They literally have been.

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Speaker 2: We have grown up with them.

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Speaker 1: They've been on air for twenty five years this year

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Speaker 1: and they've broken pretty much every record there is to

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Speaker 1: break in Australian radio. They're the most listened to show

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Speaker 1: in the country. They are the highest paid media personalities

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Speaker 1: in Australia, above any television presenter. Ever, in November twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three, they signed a ten year deal, reportedly worth

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Speaker 1: two hundred million dollars, securing their place not only on

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Speaker 1: Sydney's Kiss until twenty thirty four, but also expanding their

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Speaker 1: reach to include Melbourne. Now, this is a really important

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Speaker 1: part of the story because Melbourne is where this complaint

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Speaker 1: that AKMA investigated actually came from.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so let's deal with the Melbourne part first, and

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Speaker 3: then with the AKMA complaint second. So we mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 3: it's fairly recent that Kyle and Jackieyo have been exported

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Speaker 3: as such to Melbourne because their Sydney base. They record

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Speaker 3: from Sydney. What do we need to know about why

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Speaker 3: they have launched in Melbourne and what it's been like

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Speaker 3: in that market.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so it's part of this broader plan to nationally

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Speaker 1: syndicate the show, to bring it to broader audiences, and

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Speaker 1: that's something that Kyle and jack Yo have been honest

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Speaker 1: about with kind of their ambitions that they want to

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Speaker 1: take the show two more cities. So Kiss in Melbourne

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Speaker 1: already had a breakfast show when this deal was announced,

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Speaker 1: that was the Jason Lauren Show and it was acted

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Speaker 1: from the network after two and a half years on air. Now,

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Speaker 1: there was a fair bit of backlash in Melbourne to

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Speaker 1: that anouncement at the time. Nova, a commercial station, eventually

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Speaker 1: signed Jason Lauren in Melbourne and since then they've actually

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Speaker 1: grown their audience really significantly. Jason Lauren, Jason Lawren exactly

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Speaker 1: with Nova, while Kyle and Jackyo have really struggled in Melbourne.

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Speaker 1: The first radio ratings of twenty twenty five dropped last

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Speaker 1: week and that gave us the kind of first taste

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Speaker 1: this year of how all the radio networks and programs

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Speaker 1: are performing now. The Kyle and JACKIEO Show in Melbourne

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Speaker 1: ranked six amongst the commercial stations, an eighth overall for

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Speaker 1: Breakfast Nova at the same time, which recruited Jason Laurn

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Speaker 1: from Kiss, has literally double the share that Kiss does

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Speaker 1: in Melbourne for Breakfast So that's the five point thirty

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Speaker 1: to nine am slot.

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Speaker 3: There's so much to be said just on this topic alone,

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Speaker 3: and you know that there are many reasons being put

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Speaker 3: forward as to why Kyl and Jacko haven't flourished, perhaps

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Speaker 3: as much as they.

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Speaker 2: Were expected to.

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Speaker 3: Also important to note it's still fairly early days, so yeah,

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Speaker 3: their fortunes could still shift there in the Melbourne market.

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Speaker 3: I know my partner who's Melbournie, and I have thought

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Speaker 3: about this on many an occasion. We won't get into that.

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Speaker 3: I do just want to compare though, the Melbourne versus

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Speaker 3: Sydney thing. Clearly, Carl and jack Yo are massive in Sydney.

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Speaker 3: Can you just paint the pictures to how massive they are?

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Speaker 1: So while we know that this is a show that

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Speaker 1: is struggling to secure that audience in Melbourne, just yet,

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Speaker 1: it's such a different story here in Sydney. Kyle and

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Speaker 1: jack Yo lead the commercial breakfast radio ratings by a

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Speaker 1: significant margin. So, for example, in the latest survey that

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Speaker 1: was dropped last week, Kiss has a thirteen point three

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Speaker 1: percent share of breakfast radio listeners. Its closest competitor is Goals,

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Speaker 1: owned by the same network arn on eight point nine percent.

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Speaker 1: And Kyl and jack Yo have won something like the

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Speaker 1: last fifty radio surveys as they're called radio surveys in

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Speaker 1: a row. So for fifty surveys back to back to

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Speaker 1: back to back, they have dominated, They have secured that

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Speaker 1: top spot, they have smashed every record, they have the

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Speaker 1: biggest share.

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Speaker 3: So the reason that we are talking about Kyl and

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Speaker 3: Jacko today is because there was a finding handed down

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Speaker 3: by AKMA, the media regulator, last week. And just to

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Speaker 3: set the scene as to where that finding kind of lands,

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Speaker 3: can you just talk me through some of the controversies

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Speaker 3: that Kyl and Jackio have found themselves embroiled in over

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Speaker 3: as you said, the last twenty five years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I mean, this could be its own episode

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Speaker 1: talking about each of these controversies. But broadly, all you

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Speaker 1: really need to know is that they typically center around

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Speaker 1: comments made by Kyle Sandalans rather than Jackie Henderson. He

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Speaker 1: has been at the center of all these kinds of

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Speaker 1: accusations of insensitive content, vulgar content. We've seen advertisers withdraw

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Speaker 1: their support for the show over certain controversies, and we've

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Speaker 1: also had multiple standards investigations by AKMA which have found

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Speaker 1: breaches of decency standards on several occasions, including some stories

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Speaker 1: that made headlines on the show about discussions around empos,

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Speaker 1: discussions and comments about the Virgin Mary, Kyle Sandalan's asking

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Speaker 1: a fourteen year old about her sexual experiences. Many of

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Speaker 1: these I'm sure will ring bells for listeners to the

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Speaker 1: podcast today. But last year it all kind of came

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Speaker 1: to a head. We heard from Green Senator Sarah Hanson

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Speaker 1: Young in Parliament accusing the Communications and Media Regulator AKMA

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Speaker 1: of failing to investigate content breaches by Kyle and Jackie O.

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Speaker 1: And in that context, the head of AKHMA was facing

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Speaker 1: questions during Senate hearings. Here's a little bit of what

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Speaker 1: Hanson Young said at the time, which I think paints

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Speaker 1: its own picture.

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Speaker 4: Just a snapshot since September, jokes about people being gay,

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Speaker 4: jokes about one of the producer's Asian housemates, jokes about

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Speaker 4: dating men who are not quote white, jokes about the

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Speaker 4: sexual and racial profiles of other journalists from other stations.

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Speaker 4: Divisive and violent language about women and sex. This is revolting, sexist, racist, misogynistic,

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Speaker 4: divisive stuff on free to air radio from six am

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Speaker 4: in the morning to ten am in the morning, and

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Speaker 4: you haven't investigated it.

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Speaker 3: This really became quite a campaign of Senator Hanson Young's

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Speaker 3: and you know she was talking about it quite a

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Speaker 3: bit in Parliament. But what we did see happen was

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Speaker 3: that there was actually an AKMA investigation.

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Speaker 2: Right correct.

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Speaker 1: So AKMA launched a formal investigation into the Kyle and

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Speaker 1: Jackie OO Show after it received a listener complaint in June.

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Speaker 1: Now that related to a Melbourne listener who had filed

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Speaker 1: that complaint about the content of the Kyle and Jackie

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Speaker 1: Ooshow on the seventh of June. I'm going to read

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Speaker 1: you a little bit about the complaint that was made

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Speaker 1: to AKMA using that listener's words, and just a heads up,

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Speaker 1: there are some expletives coming up, some strong language in

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Speaker 1: this complaint. So now is your chance to turn it down.

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Speaker 1: If you've got some young people listening with you. In

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Speaker 1: the first ten minutes, this listener said, Kyle and JACKIEO

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Speaker 1: mentioned and these were their exact words, sucking koch, licking vagina,

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Speaker 1: and eating each other out, this person told Akhma. Another

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Speaker 1: segment that morning included discussions of sexual activity by listeners,

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Speaker 1: such as one man's description of quote the smell and

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Speaker 1: cleanliness of used sex toys displayed in his bedroom. So

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Speaker 1: that is a snapshot of what this listener complained to

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Speaker 1: Akma about. And I suppose a snapshot of the content

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Speaker 1: that appears.

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Speaker 3: On the show. Yeah, okay, And so there was this investigation.

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Speaker 3: Obviously you've just talked through the nature of the complaint itself.

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Speaker 3: Did we hear from Kiss, which is obviously the station

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Speaker 3: that Kyle and Jacko appear on.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So Kiss responded directly to Akma in light of

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Speaker 1: this investigation. It said the discussions in question were quote

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Speaker 1: aligned with the expectations and preferences of the audience, including

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Speaker 1: their contemporary attitudes to sex.

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Speaker 2: Fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Now, I think this is also really interesting because the

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Speaker 1: argument or the defense that we hear from Kyl and

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Speaker 1: Jacio often is that this isn't new, this is what

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Speaker 1: their audience wants, and they continue to maintain their popularity,

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Speaker 1: and so they're just meeting their audience where those expectations lie.

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Speaker 3: I do think just this is such a tangent, but

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Speaker 3: I do think that it would be really interesting the

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Speaker 3: distinction between a radio show and a podcast, a podcast

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Speaker 3: being something you actively go out and seek, yeah, versus

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Speaker 3: turning on the car and the radio. You know, you

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Speaker 3: can be a passive listener like I wonder if that

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Speaker 3: would change things. I imagine it would.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, the broadcast standards and regulations that

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Speaker 1: are enforced on live radio are very different to what

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Speaker 1: podcasting is subject to now. According to data submitted to

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Speaker 1: AKMA by Kiss by the radio network, around twenty percent

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Speaker 1: of Kyle and Jacko listeners in Melbourne are aged ten

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Speaker 1: to seventeen. Wow. This is slightly lower in Sydney. Interestingly,

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Speaker 1: sixteen percent the audience is in that ten to seventeen category.

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Speaker 1: But Kiss has defended this content saying its core audience

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Speaker 1: are quote broad minded adults.

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Speaker 3: I find that surprising that one in five Melbourne listeners

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Speaker 3: are underage.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it really speaks to the medium of

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Speaker 1: radio and that passive listening. As you mentioned, radio I

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Speaker 1: think is something that people listen to in more communal

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Speaker 1: kind of context, like the school drop off environment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is really really interesting there. So what then

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Speaker 3: were the findings of the investigation.

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Speaker 1: So AKMA found the segments in question breached the commercial

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Speaker 1: radio Code of Practice, that's that framework that commercial radio

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Speaker 1: has to adhere to in its content because they quote

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Speaker 1: offended generally accepted standards of decency with regard to the

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Speaker 1: demographic of the audience. Now that's where that kind of

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Speaker 1: young listener demo comes into play. AKMA found the discussions

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Speaker 1: were quote lude and explicit, sustained, and vulgar despite their

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Speaker 1: lighthearted tone. AKMAN didn't identify a breach of a separate standard, though,

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Speaker 1: so it did investigate a potential breach, which is about

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Speaker 1: a ban on programs about sex airing between six am

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Speaker 1: and seven pm. It accepted Kiss's defense that the content

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Speaker 1: in question was a few minutes of a four hour

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Speaker 1: program and that this means it wasn't a program primarily

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Speaker 1: about sex airing at the wrong time.

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Speaker 2: Fascinating, very interesting.

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Speaker 1: The head of AKMA. AKMA chair narrator o'lachlan said the

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Speaker 1: segments would be considered offensive to any reasonable person listening

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Speaker 1: to the broadcast and that they were not in line

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Speaker 1: with broad community standards.

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Speaker 3: So despite AKMA finding that Carlin Jackyo did breach these standards,

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Speaker 3: Carlin Jackyo still remain very much on the air. What

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Speaker 3: penalties or what sort of ramifications are there for something

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Speaker 3: like this.

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Speaker 1: This is a really interesting one because the consequences of

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Speaker 1: these findings pretty much have been put on hold at

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Speaker 1: the moment, and that's because in addition to Friday's findings

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Speaker 1: from AKMA, it's currently running to other investigations into the

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Speaker 1: Kyle and Jackie OO Show. So these are continuing inquiries

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Speaker 1: examining quote, possible systemic issues with the Kyle and JACKIEO Show,

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Speaker 1: so taking a kind of broader look at the way

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Speaker 1: the show works, the content that it's regularly discussing, as

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Speaker 1: opposed to the more specifics of an individual listener complaint.

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Speaker 1: And basically, any penalties relating to that June show from

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Speaker 1: that Melbourne listener's complaint won't be announced until all the

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Speaker 1: investigations are kind of wrapped up. But to give you

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Speaker 1: an idea of what might be ahead, we can look at,

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Speaker 1: you know, previous consequences that kiss and Kyle and jack

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Speaker 1: Yo have faced over ACME investigations, and that includes in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, there was an inquiry into comments that

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Speaker 1: Kyle Sanderlans had made about the Tokyo Paralympics. Those comments

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Speaker 1: were found to be insensitive and disparaging, and Kiss was

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Speaker 1: required to hire an additional person to monitor the show's

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Speaker 1: content for two years. I should say here that prior

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Speaker 1: to that there was one full time censor on the

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Speaker 1: desk of the show.

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Speaker 2: The show is broadcast.

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Speaker 1: In a sixty second delay, so this is interesting. This

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Speaker 1: is very interesting.

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Speaker 2: Want to just quickly explain for our listeners what that means? Yes,

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Speaker 2: for sure.

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Speaker 1: So what this means is that the Kyle and Jackie

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Speaker 1: O audio that you hear on the radio, they've said

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Speaker 1: that into a microphone sixty seconds earlier. Now there is

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Speaker 1: a person a sensor on a desk listening live not

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Speaker 1: in that delay, and it's their job to pick up

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Speaker 1: on any potential content breaches and to then censor them

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Speaker 1: from going to air. So let's say something unsavory is said,

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Speaker 1: they might go out of that as live listen into

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Speaker 1: the delay and bleep that out at the time. They

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Speaker 1: also have the capacity to dump the show, which means

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Speaker 1: to take it off air for sixty seconds to kind

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Speaker 1: of recalibrate if something really is risky. So now we

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Speaker 1: know since twenty twenty one there was an AKMA finding

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Speaker 1: that meant there is a second person, a second safeguard,

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Speaker 1: performing those responsibilities. I also, just really briefly before we

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Speaker 1: wrap up, Zara wanted to touch on another element of

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Speaker 1: this controversy, which has to do with a social justice group,

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Speaker 1: a group of activists called Mad Effing Witches. You might

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Speaker 1: have seen them on social media MFW. They have been

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Speaker 1: behind this boycott under the hashtag Vile Kyle, and it's

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Speaker 1: become a really major campaign targeting advertisers who currently support

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Speaker 1: the Kyle and JACKIEO show program. The group has been

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Speaker 1: extremely vocal about contacting these advertisers, sometimes multiple times a day,

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Speaker 1: but at least on a weekly basis, to voice their

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Speaker 1: kind of objection to these advertisers supporting the show. Kyle

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Speaker 1: and JACKIEO have criticized that action. In recent weeks. They

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Speaker 1: made a statement on air saying that it's unfair that

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Speaker 1: it's not listeners who are taking that action, that these

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Speaker 1: kind of grabs that are unsavory are cherry picked. Had

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Speaker 1: some other kind of media organizations weigh in. Sarah Harris

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Speaker 1: on the project spoke about this a couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: It is a really interesting conversation. But I think if

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Speaker 1: there's anything that we should take away from this group,

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Speaker 1: it's that they are not going anywhere and they seem

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Speaker 1: determined in their fight against Kylan Jackioh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look so many angles here and media.

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Speaker 3: Talking about media is never a dry moment, but clearly

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Speaker 3: these findings are significant and what happens next is suddenly

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Speaker 3: something that we will keep an eye on.

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Speaker 2: So thank you for explaining that, Eam.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for putting up with me, and thank you

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Speaker 3: for joining us for another episode of The Daily os.

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Speaker 3: As I mentioned last week, we have just wrapped up

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Speaker 3: our biggest month of podcasting ever and that is thanks

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Speaker 3: to you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for your support.

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Speaker 3: If you want to send this episode to a friend,

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Speaker 3: that is what helps us grow. So thank you in

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Speaker 3: advance and have a great day. My name is Lily

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Speaker 3: Madden and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Kalkotin woman from country.

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Speaker 3: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 3: the lands of the Gadigal people and pays respect to

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Speaker 3: all Aboriginal and torrest rate island and nations. We pay

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Speaker 3: our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both

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Speaker 3: past and present.