1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 2: Now the things that motivate intrinsically, a feeling of I 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 2: can do this, I'm capable and competent, I like the 5 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 2: people that I'm there, A feeling of relatedness and I'm 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 2: choosing this for myself autonomy and. 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: Now here's the scars of our show my mum and 8 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: dad today. 9 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 3: Unfortunately this is Happy Families. 10 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 2: Kylie couldn't be with me, but I'm really grateful for 11 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,959 Speaker 2: a question that has come through from Aaron, who says, Hi, 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: Justin and team firstly love your work. Have been listening 13 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: for years now and you guys just keep on giving. 14 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,319 Speaker 2: We try to give as much as we can, Aron, 15 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 2: so thanks for noticing. The question though is as follows, 16 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 2: our family is on an earlish journey of an ADHD 17 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: diagnosis for our eldest son, eight years old. Erin says, 18 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: I'm a health professional myself and have been doing lots 19 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 2: of reading about the behavioral strategies for helping kids with 20 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 2: their ADHD challenges. So much of the material talks about 21 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: the effectiveness of rewards on the basis of the fact 22 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 2: that ADHD is a neurological condition which lacks some of 23 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: the chemicals in the reward circuitry of the brain. They 24 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 2: explain that tasks that require more effort and concentration and 25 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: persistence have a relative lack of rewarding feelings, so ADHD 26 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: kids often find these tasks difficult. This also goes some 27 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 2: way to explaining why kids with ADHD argue and push 28 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 2: back so much if they get a big response from someone, 29 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 2: because this reaction in itself is rewarding, even if it's 30 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 2: a negative reaction. So one of the strategies recommended is 31 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 2: to make non preferred tasks, that is, tasks someone doesn't 32 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 2: want to do more immediately rewarding, either via praise, encouragement, 33 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 2: conceptual rewards, or physical rewards like stickers and prizes. I've 34 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: listened to your opinions and Alfie Cohnes in your podcast 35 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: on rewards and punishment and fundamentally agree and very much 36 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: want for my children and this son in particular, to 37 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 2: find ways to be self motivated and fulfilled. But I 38 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: wondered what your educated opinion or what research might say 39 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: about whether in the circumstances of ADHD and a relative 40 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 2: lack of feel good intrinsic reward brain chemistry might mean 41 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 2: the playing field is somewhat different for these kids. Given 42 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: the previous interest in all your ADHD stuff, I hope 43 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 2: you could do a podcast episode on this one. Looking 44 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: forward to hearing from you, Erin so Erin really appreciate 45 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 2: the email. Let's go through a handful of things over 46 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: the next five to eight minutes and see what we 47 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: can come up with. The first thing that I want 48 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 2: to emphasize is, and you've labeled this correctly in your email. 49 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: You've said, I've been looking at the behavioral strategies that 50 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: people have written about the behavioral strategies, and so there 51 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: are different ways that we can come at things like 52 00:02:54,240 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: ADHD and autism and other neurodivergent experiences or realities that 53 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 2: we're dealing with. The first thing that I want to 54 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: highlight is your point about reading behavioral strategies, so we 55 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 2: can come at this from all kinds of different angles. 56 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 2: Behavioral strategies are the most popular. That's where most of 57 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: the research lies, and that's where most of the programs 58 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: and most of the therapy that you'll do sits. It's in 59 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: the behavioral realm with a focus on rewards. In other words, 60 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: what can I do to enhance intrinsic We're not going 61 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: to enhance intrinsic interest, so what can I do to 62 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: make something extrinsically rewarding since it's just not intrinsically rewarding 63 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: at all. My approach is non behavioral. That is, I'm 64 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: trying to move away from this focus on external rewards 65 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: because we're playing in the shallow end of the motivation continuum. 66 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: But we've got external motivation at one end and intrinsic 67 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: motivation at the other end, and there's a whole lot 68 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: of stages along the way. All of these behavioral approaches 69 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: much much about saying, how can we manipulate the environment 70 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: so that it's externally go to orient kids towards doing 71 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: something even though they still don't really have any desire 72 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: to do it. And Aaron, that's really at the heart 73 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 2: of your question, because you wrapped up by saying you 74 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: trying to find ways to compensate for a relative lack 75 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: of feel good intrinsic reward brain chemistry. So that brings 76 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: me to the second point to highlight, and this is 77 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 2: whether you've got an ADHD child or not, And that 78 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 2: is that there is stuff in life that we all 79 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,559 Speaker 2: have to deal with that is not intrinsically feel good. 80 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 2: Doing the dishes is not intrinsically feel good. Getting up 81 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: on time for work not intrinsically. 82 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 3: Feel good sort of stuff. 83 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 2: The things that we do for their own sake, they 84 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: are intrinsically motivating. Things we do because we know that 85 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 2: we should, or because we value them and we know 86 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 2: that they're important and we appreciate having them in our lives. 87 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: They fall into other places on that motivation continuum. I 88 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 2: guess what all of this means is when we're dealing 89 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: with the child with ADHD, or with any any other 90 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: neurodivergent condition, or times when you're just dealing with a child, generally, 91 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: we've got to look at what we can do to 92 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: satisfy the needs that they have to move them in 93 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: the direction where there's going to be a level of 94 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: motivation that doesn't rely on us pushing and rewarding. So 95 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 2: self determination theory is the name of the theory that 96 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: sits squarely at the center of my approach to dealing 97 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 2: with ADHD. 98 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 3: That theory says. 99 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: That we will have high levels of motivation that is 100 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: intrinsic motivation, or at least a deeper level of motivation 101 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: than the superficial external I'm doing it because you're dangling 102 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: a carrot or brandishing a stick motivation. What we want 103 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: to do is we want to move kids along that 104 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 2: continuum from what's called external motivation to something called interjected motivation. 105 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: That's not really healthy, but it's better than external motivation. 106 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 2: Interjective motivation is where you're doing it because you know 107 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: you're supposed to, but nobody's making you. And that's a 108 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: better form of motivation generally than external but something that's 109 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: even better than interjected motivation. As we move along, motivation 110 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 2: continuum to some slightly deeper water is what you would 111 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 2: call identified motivation. This is when your child or you say, 112 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: this is an important thing. 113 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 3: To do, and I value it. It matters. 114 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 2: The next level of motivation as we go into even 115 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 2: deeper motivation waters is what we call integrated motivation. This 116 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: is where we do it because we know that we 117 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: value it. It's integrated into our identity. I do this 118 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: because I want to be healthy. I do this because 119 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 2: I value cleanliness. I do this because it's part of 120 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: me being a good person. It's part of who I am, 121 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: And then we get to intrinsic motivation, where we say 122 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: I do this because of the joy of doing it, 123 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: because it in and of itself is an end for me. 124 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 3: That's kind of complicated, but. 125 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: It's really important when we're dealing with neurodivergence because while 126 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: ever we're operating at the reward level, which is where 127 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: most behavioral strategies are focused, we're focused on that shallow 128 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: end of the continuum. So what moves us along the 129 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 2: continuum into the deeper motivational waters. 130 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 3: Three things. The first is a sense of autonomy, and 131 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 3: I think as I consider our own experience with our 132 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 3: child who has some of these additional needs, I think 133 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 3: that that may be the most important thing of all. 134 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: We've learned that the more we step back and the 135 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: more that we let her I guess, not dictate terms 136 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: so much, but work within some reasonable frameworks at her 137 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: own pace, in her own way, we found that she's 138 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: motivated to do most things most of the time, so 139 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 2: long as we can be patient with her and let 140 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: her do it her way. Autonomy is at the heart 141 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 2: of this. Every time we start to get coercive, every 142 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: time we start to get controlling, every time we start 143 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 2: to push that little eight year old to. 144 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 3: Do things our way and to do them. 145 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: Now, what we find is that motivation decreases, and so 146 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: toutors compliance, and subsequently so does well being. The second 147 00:07:53,960 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: central element is competence. Now, competence needs a fragile When 148 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: a child doesn't do things well, they shy away from 149 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: doing them at all. Why because no one likes to 150 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: be hopeless at stuff. When a child does things quite well, 151 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 2: their motivation will be high. Why Because they can do it. 152 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: They approach it rather than avoid it. They feel good 153 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: about doing it. Our job, therefore, as parents with a 154 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: child who has ADHD, is to say, how can we 155 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 2: create structures here that provide you with the support you need? 156 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: There's going to be accountability, but there has to be support. 157 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: How do we help you to get this done? 158 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: And the last basic psychological need is relatedness. That is, 159 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 2: the more I like the people that I'm going to 160 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 2: be hanging around with while I do this thing, the 161 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: more likely it is that I'm going to go and 162 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 2: do it and do it reasonably well. The things that 163 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: motivate intrinsically, or at least at an integrated or identified level, 164 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: those things are a feeling of I can do this, 165 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: I'm capable and competent. I like the people that I'm there, 166 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: a feeling of relatedness and I'm choosing this for myself autonomy. Now, 167 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 2: my new book, which comes out in April, is called 168 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: The Parenting Revolution, and Erin the entire book is all 169 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 2: about this style of parenting, need supportive parenting. In addition, 170 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: in the Happy Family's web shop, we have a handful 171 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: of products all about ADHD, a couple of webinars that 172 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: I've done that have been very, very popular, and newsflash, 173 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: in the next few weeks, keep an eye on your 174 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: email because we're going to be letting you know about 175 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 2: a brand new course all about ADHD that helps to 176 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: move away from the behavioral approach and move towards a 177 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: need supportive approach that will help your child to find 178 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: motivation and well being even in things that they might 179 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 2: not have otherwise been motivated for. 180 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 3: Unless they could get an external reward. 181 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 2: That's what the whole course is all about, and it's 182 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: going to be really helpful. Erin. I hope that this 183 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: podcast has given you a little bit of food for thought. 184 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: The ideas that I've shared take a lot of trial 185 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: and error. They require us as parents to really be 186 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: on our game and to make sure that we're setting 187 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 2: the environment up in a way that. 188 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 3: Works for our child. 189 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,599 Speaker 2: But hopefully with the little bit that I've shared with 190 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: you just now to move you in the right direction 191 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: and help you to start to think about, experiment with, 192 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 2: and play with. 193 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: Some of these ideas. 194 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 2: In April next year, the book comes out sometime in 195 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: the next month or so, keep an eye on your 196 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: email for the ADHD course. I think you're going to 197 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: love it and hopefully with all of that, we've answered 198 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: your question and helped to make your family a little 199 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: bit happier. Tomorrow, on The Happy Family's Podcast, I have 200 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: a chat with dr Anthea Rhodes talking about the latest 201 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 2: findings from the Royal Children's Hospital Health Poll Kids summer 202 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 2: water safety. It's a really important conversation. I'm looking forward 203 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: to that, and later in the week we're going to 204 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 2: talk about balancing family values and routines with visiting grandparents 205 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: who have different ideas about what the kids can and 206 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: can't do, pro tacking the big issues. On The Happy 207 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: Families Podcast, we appreciate Justin Rowland from Bridge Media. He's 208 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: our producer. He does a great job in making the 209 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 2: podcast sound great. Thank you, Justin. We also appreciate Craig Bruce, 210 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: our executive producer, for more and fo about the stuff 211 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: that we've talked about today. Keep an eye on your email, 212 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 2: drive to the Happy Family's newsletter, or visit us at 213 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 2: doctor Justin Carson's Happy Families on Facebook. 214 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 3: Back tomorrow with more on the Happy Families podcast.