Speaker 1: Welcome back to TV Reload. My name is Benjamin Norris,
Speaker 1: and on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes
Speaker 1: with the biggest players in television today. On the podcast,
Speaker 1: I have Maz Farreley, whose credits include Executive Editor of
Speaker 1: Format Entertainment for BBC, Creative Strategists for BBC Worldwide Australia,
Speaker 1: and Director of Format Entertainment for Freemantle Media Australia. What
Speaker 1: Maz does best is putting people on screen that makes
Speaker 1: you want to watch. Chances are you've watched some of
Speaker 1: her work, or probably all of it, as she has
Speaker 1: made shows like X Factor Q and A Big Brother,
Speaker 1: Farmer Wants a Wife, Dancing with the Stars. Actually, if
Speaker 1: I was to list them all, we'd probably be here
Speaker 1: all day. So let's get started with some exclusive content
Speaker 1: as we find out how these shows get made.
Speaker 2: The most important thing in car Stang I go Australia.
Speaker 2: This is It's just to be you. This is Dancing
Speaker 2: with the Stars. You think about all the people that
Speaker 2: you love on TV. James, You're fired, They're different, this
Speaker 2: is Big Brother. If you are different, it is the
Speaker 2: greatest gift in your life, so celebrate it.
Speaker 1: How are you Matt's Are you good, darling?
Speaker 2: I am absolutely rock star, sensational, and thank you so
Speaker 2: much for having me on your podcast. The enormous number
Speaker 2: of people that you could choose, I'm delighted you've chosen me.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: You know I have admired you so much, and I
Speaker 1: know so many people in the industry have revered your career.
Speaker 1: But today what I want to do is give the
Speaker 1: people what they want, and that is how the hell
Speaker 1: do you get cast in television?
Speaker 2: You have to be super interesting and everybody is fascinating.
Speaker 2: This is absolutely true. Everybody has an amazing story. But
Speaker 2: sometimes people speak in cliches. I call it white noise.
Speaker 2: So I would say to people, I'm big brother, and
Speaker 2: I know the softba Parks have said it about seventy
Speaker 2: five thousand times. Tell me about you. Tell me why
Speaker 2: you should be on the show. You have one minute
Speaker 2: to tell us why you are better than everyone else outside.
Speaker 2: Don't tell me you're the life and stud of the party.
Speaker 2: You're a real poper. You really want to win that
Speaker 2: She's going to give it one hundred and ten percent.
Speaker 2: I'm nervous, but excited. Don't tell me that, because when
Speaker 2: you do you sound like everybody else? Tell me why
Speaker 2: you are different? And most people say, well, I'm a
Speaker 2: real people person. No stop, Remember I said, don't tell
Speaker 2: me that, because that makes you sound like everybody else.
Speaker 2: So the people that really stood out for me there
Speaker 2: was a girl, Constance Hall, and I love Constance and
Speaker 2: she said, do you know what, I'm not a people person.
Speaker 2: I really don't like people. I find them incredibly disappointing.
Speaker 2: You know, they say they're going to do something and
Speaker 2: then they don't, and I just find people really disappointing.
Speaker 2: I'm not a people person. Loved her. There was a
Speaker 2: guy called farmer Dave. He came in. I said, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're beautiful, and you've been to like one hundred countries
Speaker 2: and you know, he'd sent him pictures of him on
Speaker 2: a horse like mate, and he was just you know, wow,
Speaker 2: And I said, how is it possible you're single? And
Speaker 2: he said, it's hard to find a farmer's wife when
Speaker 2: you're looking for a man. Brilliant. And the other one
Speaker 2: was a girl, Geneva was her name. We put her
Speaker 2: on the show as well. She was brilliant. And he said,
Speaker 2: you know, tell me where you're different. What's different? About you.
Speaker 2: You're not life and soul blah blah blah. And she said,
Speaker 2: what's different about me? She said, basically, I'm a lesbian,
Speaker 2: but I can't seem to give up cock. Sorry, what
Speaker 2: did you say? And she said pretty much bad lesbian.
Speaker 2: I'm just a bad lesbian and we went, oh my
Speaker 2: holy lord wow. And you think you have one minute
Speaker 2: to impress everyone in the world. Producers, you know, if
Speaker 2: you're going for venture capital, if you're going for an interview,
Speaker 2: if you're you know, going on a date, The first
Speaker 2: minute you meet someone is so vital and you have
Speaker 2: to know who you are, what you do, and why
Speaker 2: you do it, say in an interesting way, otherwise you're
Speaker 2: dead on the water. You want to do this show
Speaker 2: so badly, you have to have your first minute prepared.
Speaker 2: You can't walk in there and say, you know, I
Speaker 2: really I just want Australia to love me. And you know,
Speaker 2: a people person, I'm the life and soul of the party.
Speaker 2: White noise cliches, can't hear it. White noise, just it's dead,
Speaker 2: dead sound. So know your story.
Speaker 1: But the thing in your book about that one minute
Speaker 1: is so vital. And I always say to people when
Speaker 1: you get in there. Just tell them the things that
Speaker 1: have happened to you in your life that makes you
Speaker 1: different to other people. And when I auditioned for the show,
Speaker 1: you know, at the time, my partner and I were
Speaker 1: both doing the exact same job, but we hadn't told
Speaker 1: my employer, so my partner at home with the same name, Ben,
Speaker 1: was doing the job from home. However, I was the
Speaker 1: person out on the road, so I told them I'm
Speaker 1: really really crap with attention to detail, but my partner's
Speaker 1: really good at it. But i love talking to people
Speaker 1: and hearing stories. So I'd go and meet people and
Speaker 1: then I'd get all the stories, ring my partner on
Speaker 1: the way home, ring him on the phone, and be like,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, she said this and this. I never
Speaker 1: would see them again. He would have all of the
Speaker 1: information and he would follow them up, run the campaign,
Speaker 1: talk to them on the phone. They never knew anything.
Speaker 1: So I say to people, even if it is a
Speaker 1: little bit sinister, even if it could be perceived as being,
Speaker 1: you know, not that likable, if it's your truth and
Speaker 1: that story is available to you, you should tell that story.
Speaker 2: The most important thing in casting and frankly in life
Speaker 2: and I can say this because I'm seven hundred years
Speaker 2: old now. Is just to be you. You are the
Speaker 2: best version of you. There is no one better at
Speaker 2: being you than you. And the things that make you
Speaker 2: different are the things that are utterly beautiful about you
Speaker 2: and what you don't want to be. And anyone who's
Speaker 2: young who's listening to this, you do not want to
Speaker 2: be vanilla gray, because when you are, I can throw
Speaker 2: a dart into a crowd and hit anyone and you're
Speaker 2: all the same. If you're different, that it's the greatest
Speaker 2: gift you can have. You think about all the people
Speaker 2: that you love on TV and in music, they're different,
Speaker 2: they're different. If you are different, it is the greatest
Speaker 2: gift in life. So celebrate it. Whatever is different about you,
Speaker 2: make it your thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Before I worked in TV, I as a stylist and
Speaker 2: I loved people who looked different. I remember Kate Moss
Speaker 2: coming to see me and she was small, you know,
Speaker 2: she's probably about five five five six, and all the
Speaker 2: other models were six foot. She was different and she
Speaker 2: had a really different look. Her eyes were strange and
Speaker 2: her face was a bit strange, and it worked so beautifully.
Speaker 2: I booked her for a beauty gig, and you know,
Speaker 2: there were loads of people who looked like Cinda Crawford
Speaker 2: and you know, she's extraordinarily beautiful. But Kate Moss was different.
Speaker 2: And you know, I tell you Kate Moss is you
Speaker 2: know who she is?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, what an icon. It allowed people to relate
Speaker 1: to her. It made people feel like I could be
Speaker 1: a model. You know, I'm not classically this, I'm not
Speaker 1: classically that, but I could aspire to that. And that's
Speaker 1: the that's where I think we've lost a bit of
Speaker 1: the magic with television these days, is it should be aspirational.
Speaker 2: So there's a guy called Dave Trot who's an advertising genius,
Speaker 2: and he says this, in a room of one hundred people,
Speaker 2: if you look like everyone else, how much of my
Speaker 2: attention do you have?
Speaker 1: None?
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you look different to everybody else, you jump
Speaker 2: to fifty percent because there's you and then there's everyone else.
Speaker 2: So suddenly, just the fact that you're different. If I'm
Speaker 2: the only woman in the room, I have fifty percent
Speaker 2: of the attention, which is brilliant. If I'm the only foreigner,
Speaker 2: that's wonderful. Any person from you know, so anything that's
Speaker 2: different about you is your greatest gift. And whether it's
Speaker 2: physical or you know, it's part of your nature, your
Speaker 2: you know, your personality, absolutely grab it, develop it. And
Speaker 2: Melby is Melby is honest. That is her thing. It
Speaker 2: makes her really different. She's really confident, she's you know,
Speaker 2: she's not the most beautiful, she's not the smartests, not
Speaker 2: the cleverest. But what she is is she has a
Speaker 2: disarming honesty. She is, you know, absolutely insanely honest, and
Speaker 2: we love her for it. That's her thing.
Speaker 1: Zach No, I don't think you've got a bad voice
Speaker 1: at all. I don't.
Speaker 2: I think that you'd really overstang that and it was
Speaker 2: actually really annoying your interpretation of it.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't doubt.
Speaker 2: That you can say, oh, be quiet, gay, it's okay,
Speaker 2: it's okay.
Speaker 1: I love that you just mentioned Melby because I think
Speaker 1: she's great. But it's just one of the many reality
Speaker 1: shows that you've worked on. I know this is a
Speaker 1: bold question to ask because most people shy away from it,
Speaker 1: but Mas, I know you well enough to know you'll
Speaker 1: give you the answer. What is the best and the
Speaker 1: worst reality TV gigs you've worked on? Not that they
Speaker 1: failed or they succeeded, but in your mind the best
Speaker 1: and the worst.
Speaker 2: So I have a few bests. I like shows where
Speaker 2: people really succeed. So the X Factor was great because
Speaker 2: you see people going off and having great careers, and
Speaker 2: that is a beautiful thing to see because you really
Speaker 2: want them to succeed. I like Farmer Wants a Wife
Speaker 2: because they go off and they fall in love and
Speaker 2: they get married and they have kids. I love Big
Speaker 2: Brother because I am a very nosy, curious, inquisitive. Like
Speaker 2: I say to people, I'm like a street fighting psychologist.
Speaker 2: I have spent my life watching people, and it's because
Speaker 2: I love it. I'm fascinated by how people behave and
Speaker 2: why they behave in a certain way. I'm so wildly interested.
Speaker 2: The worst show I think would be a dancing show
Speaker 2: that we made when I was at Fremantle and it
Speaker 2: was called Everybody Dancing Now, and we called it Nobody
Speaker 2: Watched Now because nobody watched it, and nobody watched it
Speaker 2: because it wasn't very good.
Speaker 1: It's audition time. Our dance master is no talent.
Speaker 2: When they see.
Speaker 3: It, Kelly Rowland and Jason de Wola decide who will
Speaker 3: make it through to the Big Arena.
Speaker 1: Everybody Dares Now starts Sunday, August twelfth.
Speaker 4: On ten.
Speaker 2: So yeah, pretty much every show I've made has either
Speaker 2: been number one, won award, or been recommissioned, except that one.
Speaker 2: I think it lasted four nights, which was probably three
Speaker 2: nights too long.
Speaker 1: Wow, were you aware that this show wasn't going to work?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so, I think in my heart. And
Speaker 2: I spoke to my boss about it, and he said,
Speaker 2: you know, I think you're being negative, and I don't
Speaker 2: think I am. And you know, I said to you,
Speaker 2: I'm a bit of a street fighter, you know, I
Speaker 2: kind of am. I'm very intuitive, and you know I've
Speaker 2: done this a lot. You know, I'm not an expert
Speaker 2: in budgeting or housekeeping. I'm a shocking girlfriend, but I
Speaker 2: am extraordinarily good at making content. It is my superpower.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I just didn't think it would work. And
Speaker 2: we did the best with it. You know, we did
Speaker 2: our best, but it wasn't good enough, which is really hard.
Speaker 2: It's very hard to work on the show that you
Speaker 2: think isn't. You can do everything you can to make
Speaker 2: it work, but it just simply didn't work. The format
Speaker 2: didn't work. It just didn't make sense.
Speaker 1: A bit of a MythBuster that we can have for
Speaker 1: the audience that's listening now. You know a lot of
Speaker 1: people have auditioned for reality shows before, and there's a
Speaker 1: bit of a misconception that you walk into a room,
Speaker 1: meet a producer and they shake your hand and put
Speaker 1: you into the you know, onto the stage or into
Speaker 1: the house or and there's there's a very long process
Speaker 1: that happens, you know, finding the right cast that matches together.
Speaker 1: What's the average time from when a person walks in
Speaker 1: and meets you then to them being on television.
Speaker 2: Probably about because probably about three months, four months. It's
Speaker 2: quite a long time a because there are lots of
Speaker 2: things that you have to do. You send them off
Speaker 2: to be psych tested, you do police checks, do health checks.
Speaker 2: You can't have twelve people who are identical. So you
Speaker 2: find someone. So this is how I do it. You
Speaker 2: find someone that you think is the glue and the
Speaker 2: other person everyone's going to like, and then you build
Speaker 2: a cast around them. So you'd be the glue. On
Speaker 2: the Celebrity Apprentice, it was Julia Morris. You know, people
Speaker 2: like FITZI and the glue. You know, it's impossible not
Speaker 2: to like fitsy, it's just a really good bloke and
Speaker 2: you meet him, you go, you know, you've got a
Speaker 2: really fair crack at winning this. And then you build
Speaker 2: and you build a cast around them, and you know yourself,
Speaker 2: if you're having pals over, you don't invite. You know,
Speaker 2: six friends were exactly the same. Yeah, you have six
Speaker 2: friends were exactly the same. You know. We like variety,
Speaker 2: so you cast it sort of like a drama. So
Speaker 2: if you were writing it as a drama, you would
Speaker 2: cast those people. But it is a really long process,
Speaker 2: and we want to be sure that you're emotionally robust
Speaker 2: enough to do it. So I give people what I
Speaker 2: call my talk of doom. And interestingly, someone well, maybe
Speaker 2: this isn't interesting at all. I think it's interesting. Someone
Speaker 2: sent me my friend Lucien sent me a link to
Speaker 2: Luis Throux's podcast and it was with a guy called
Speaker 2: god what's his name, Raylan rylan Lan Yes, and he said,
Speaker 2: I think he's talking about you. And I listened to
Speaker 2: it and I went, oh, yeah, he's talking about me.
Speaker 2: And he said, So I went into the audition and
Speaker 2: there was this woman there and she talked to me.
Speaker 2: He said something like she talked to me like shit,
Speaker 2: and I thought, I don't think that was but then
Speaker 2: when he said what I'd said, absolutely it was me.
Speaker 4: And there was this woman and she spoke to me
Speaker 4: like shit, but on purpose, because she told me that
Speaker 4: you will probably be hated. You will probably get voted
Speaker 4: out first, you won't earn any money, and when you
Speaker 4: come out, you will not be famous. But you won't
Speaker 4: be able to go and work in a shop because
Speaker 4: people will keep coming up to you, going and you
Speaker 4: that idiot from Big Brother? Are you that this? Are
Speaker 4: you that that? And it will take you a long time.
Speaker 4: And back then it was really scary. I now understand
Speaker 4: why that's done because at that stage people do go, oh, no,
Speaker 4: I'm not doing it. Then I'm not doing it. I
Speaker 4: don't want to do it.
Speaker 2: And he said. This woman said to me, look, you
Speaker 2: know you think everyone's going to love you, They probably won't.
Speaker 2: And you'll be too famous to go back to your job,
Speaker 2: but not famous enough to be famous. So when you
Speaker 2: go back to try and work in the shoe shop
Speaker 2: and people are walking and pointing at you not buying shoes,
Speaker 2: the owner will get rid of you. So you probably
Speaker 2: won't have a job everyone that you've ever dated will
Speaker 2: sell this story. You think that you'll be the person
Speaker 2: off the telling that everyone loves you, probably won't. How
Speaker 2: many times have you been in the bar and you go,
Speaker 2: there's that idiot off the telly. You don't think that
Speaker 2: idiot will be you. It will be I promise you.
Speaker 2: And by the way, you'll think that we've shown you
Speaker 2: in a way that is detrimental to you. You think
Speaker 2: that we've shown you in a way that isn't true,
Speaker 2: and that you know, why would I do that. I
Speaker 2: don't care who wins, because it's not me. I'm not
Speaker 2: winning the money. I don't care who wins. If you
Speaker 2: don't kiss someone, I can't show it. If you don't
Speaker 2: fight someone, I can't show it. If you do it,
Speaker 2: we'll show it because it's reality and it's honest. And
Speaker 2: he repeated all of this, and I'm like, oh, that
Speaker 2: that is me. And then he said something. It was lovely,
Speaker 2: he said, and I see why she did it, because
Speaker 2: she wanted me to know what fame is like and
Speaker 2: what it's going to be like.
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, he didn't get cast on that civilian series
Speaker 1: of Big Brother. He then went on to do X
Speaker 1: Factor and then from X Factor got selected to be
Speaker 1: on Celebrity Big Brother and he won Celebrity Big Brother.
Speaker 1: But he said something in the podcast which is the
Speaker 1: true magic of this story, and that is that he
Speaker 1: wasn't ready. He needed that chat you as a producer.
Speaker 1: And this is where people need to be kinder about
Speaker 1: reality television at the moment. I know there's a lot
Speaker 1: of negativity in that space, but I can I guarantee
Speaker 1: you from my experience and knowing you and knowing the
Speaker 1: women that are working in these roles like Amelia Fisk
Speaker 1: and Keeley, who genuinely care about the casting process and
Speaker 1: about who they're going to put on the show. They're
Speaker 1: not going to ruin you. They're going to help you
Speaker 1: to be exactly who you are and have a good experience.
Speaker 1: Do people see themselves on the screen and they say
Speaker 1: that it's bad editing, But a lot of people have
Speaker 1: a really strong disconnect as to who they.
Speaker 2: Really are, totally, Benjamin. No one sees themselves twenty four
Speaker 2: hours a day, and reality TV is an enormous mirror
Speaker 2: that is placed right in front of you. And when
Speaker 2: we did The Celebrity Apprentice, the Fabulous Danny Hines called
Speaker 2: me and she said, look, I think you know I'm
Speaker 2: not being portrayed in a really great way. You know
Speaker 2: that I look like I'm fighting everyone what you were
Speaker 2: fighting everyone. I said that cal Julia Morris and cool
Speaker 2: Max Markson ask them if it's honest, and that you
Speaker 2: were like that, and I said, back in an hour
Speaker 2: if you completely disagree, we'll talk about it. And she
Speaker 2: caught me back in an hour and she said, they
Speaker 2: said that was much worse. I think your word, Earling, Yes,
Speaker 2: And I love Denny. Denny's another one. What you see
Speaker 2: is what you get. She was just honest. If she
Speaker 2: was cross, she was cross, and she didn't pretend she wasn't,
Speaker 2: which is quite confronting for people. So yeah, I think
Speaker 2: you have to have a real duty of care. And
Speaker 2: my old boss on my first ever Big Brother, a
Speaker 2: guy called Philka Jones, the loveliest, sweetest human in the world,
Speaker 2: and he gathered all of us together. He said, the
Speaker 2: most important thing on this show is this, and we're
Speaker 2: all waiting for you know, the highest ratings or you know,
Speaker 2: police don't sleep with each other, and he said, the
Speaker 2: most important thing is these people feel safe and looked
Speaker 2: after and then we make a TV show. But number one,
Speaker 2: they have to trust us, and that's why there's such
Speaker 2: a big process. And you do send people off to
Speaker 2: be psych tested to make sure they're strong enough to
Speaker 2: do it, and you make sure that you do please checks.
Speaker 2: So I don't know when you have a criminal record
Speaker 2: or not, but I do need to know because if
Speaker 2: you've bashed in, you know, an old lady, or you've
Speaker 2: been selling drugs to kiddies, I don't want you to win.
Speaker 2: It's not great, you know, or bashing your partner. So
Speaker 2: we do, you know, as much as we can, and
Speaker 2: we also have a duty of care to make sure
Speaker 2: that the people who are on are robust enough to
Speaker 2: do it and you know that they can cope with it.
Speaker 1: Do you think we need to do more in the
Speaker 1: space of looking after these contestants coming out of these shows.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think so. I mean I made it seventy
Speaker 2: four thousand years ago when social media wasn't really the
Speaker 2: thing it is now. But I think what would be
Speaker 2: great is if there was an independent company that looked
Speaker 2: after all reality stars, reality people for all networks and
Speaker 2: you could call them, you know, any time, and there
Speaker 2: was psyche you know, where the sych was available to you.
Speaker 2: I think that would be great.
Speaker 1: Reality television is really interesting no matter who you are,
Speaker 1: and you might think you'll be the Chrissy Swan or
Speaker 1: the FITZI. Everyone goes back to exactly who they were
Speaker 1: when they auditioned for the show. I truly believe this.
Speaker 1: You know, I was always wanting to do red carpet
Speaker 1: and interview people, and I was always on the precipice
Speaker 1: of that, but had never really achieved great success. I'm
Speaker 1: still there. I went back to that same spot. Reality
Speaker 1: TV is not going to save you. It's just going
Speaker 1: to be an experience, like a summer holiday that you
Speaker 1: can go, Wow, that was cool.
Speaker 2: I try to arm people before they go in. I think.
Speaker 2: I mean, my greatest advice to everyone is switch off
Speaker 2: your social media. You know, if it starts to get negative,
Speaker 2: just switch it off and don't look at it. I
Speaker 2: know it's really hard to do that, but it's the
Speaker 2: opinion of people who don't know you, and you know,
Speaker 2: people would write terrible things about my shows, and I think,
Speaker 2: you know what, you couldn't make it. It's really hard
Speaker 2: to do this, So I'm not going to listen to you.
Speaker 2: I'm just your opinion is not valid to me unless it's,
Speaker 2: you know, a really a smart, critical opinion. But you know,
Speaker 2: people would write terrible things and you kind of go,
Speaker 2: I just don't care. I mean, I did this show
Speaker 2: Reality Check and it was on the ABC, and my
Speaker 2: friends would send me tweets of things that people have
Speaker 2: said about me, and I used to find it really
Speaker 2: funny because you think you've got to have a sense
Speaker 2: of humor about it. And someone had said, this woman
Speaker 2: looks like Nancy sponge AND's mum, and Nancy Spungeen was
Speaker 2: punk who dated Sid Vicious, and that week, to be fair,
Speaker 2: I did. And another week I was wearing a piece
Speaker 2: of jewelry and someone tweeted, this woman looks like a
Speaker 2: kid made a jewelry. I mean, you know, God forbid,
Speaker 2: I should have children. But it did look like it
Speaker 2: had been made by a seven year old. And you're
Speaker 2: fair enough. And I rape to both of them and said, absolutely,
Speaker 2: you're absolutely right. My rules for anyone who's criticizing me
Speaker 2: on social media you have to use correct grammar, and
Speaker 2: it has to be funny. And if you troll me
Speaker 2: and you're funny and the grammar is correct, then I
Speaker 2: will engage, but I think just switch it off, you know,
Speaker 2: don't listen. It's the opinion of people who don't know you,
Speaker 2: who are a bit angry about their own lives, and
Speaker 2: just don't eGain.
Speaker 1: You know who's a gorgeous woman is Lisa McSweeney. And
Speaker 1: she was like a housemate minded that looked after all
Speaker 1: the housemates, and she said to me, Ben, there's all
Speaker 1: these people that are saying all this nasty stuff, but
Speaker 1: just remember they're actually talking about themselves. You know. What
Speaker 1: they're saying about you usually is an opinion they have
Speaker 1: of themselves. So when I got that piece of information
Speaker 1: and then was really heavily trolled after the show, anytime
Speaker 1: someone said something really disturbing, I didn't take it personally.
Speaker 1: I thought I immediately clicked with that information and thought,
Speaker 1: that's how they must feel about themselves, that they're ugly,
Speaker 1: or they don't like their voice, or you know, whatever
Speaker 1: it is. These things they just emulated that.
Speaker 2: If you're happy, you're not going to troll people. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm a happy little soul. I don't feel any need
Speaker 2: to go online and be awful about people. I can't
Speaker 2: see the point. And also it's just not very kind,
Speaker 2: be kind. I want to do a workshop that's one
Speaker 2: hundred days of kindness that you just you ban. You know,
Speaker 2: people do drive your line January and you think, let's
Speaker 2: do January where you're just really kind and you don't lie,
Speaker 2: and you don't beep anyone, and you know, you pay
Speaker 2: for coffee for the person behind you, and you tell
Speaker 2: three people that day how beautiful they look, and you
Speaker 2: help someone who looks like they might need it instead
Speaker 2: of you know, buying a bottle of wine, buy a
Speaker 2: cheaper one, give that money to someone, Surprise people with
Speaker 2: some act of kindness. And I think we do lots
Speaker 2: of negative stuff. I'm going to give up. I'm going
Speaker 2: to stop dot dot dot. And you think, no, why
Speaker 2: don't you do the opposite and start doing something amazing.
Speaker 2: Imagine imagine what it be like. It'd be amazing, So
Speaker 2: let's do it.
Speaker 1: One of the interesting things I was wanting to talk
Speaker 1: to you about is the lack of diversity that's on
Speaker 1: reality television at the moment. You know, we've come a
Speaker 1: long way, but we're only starting to get there.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: The truth behind you know, seeing a lack of diversity
Speaker 1: on screen is because a lot of people of color
Speaker 1: don't apply because they think, oh, that's not for me,
Speaker 1: that's you know, middle class white people go on those shows.
Speaker 1: But I think the more and more that we can
Speaker 1: create that space so that diversity can be seen, maybe
Speaker 1: then we will see, you know, like a person of
Speaker 1: the Bachelorette or the Bachelor.
Speaker 2: I think it's difficult. I can't be it if I
Speaker 2: can't see it. And all the shows that I've made,
Speaker 2: I've made an extraordinary effort to be as diverse as possible,
Speaker 2: and sometimes on shows it's really really, really really hard.
Speaker 2: And I did a show in the UK and I
Speaker 2: really wanted to have a black family because everyone who
Speaker 2: applied was white and middle class. And I said to
Speaker 2: my team's you know advertising, the West Indian Times and
Speaker 2: the African Times and go to you know, this club
Speaker 2: and that club and this sports place and this place,
Speaker 2: and go to this town and this you know church
Speaker 2: and this everything. And I think we managed to get
Speaker 2: one family. But it took us, you know, probably a
Speaker 2: week of work. Whereas you put an ad up, you know,
Speaker 2: for four seconds and you say families needed and you
Speaker 2: get you know, So it's about actually making a little
Speaker 2: bit more of an effort and you have to. And
Speaker 2: I feel very not proud, but I feel very pleased
Speaker 2: that in the UK on Big Brother we had a
Speaker 2: very diverse cast and I really really like that. So
Speaker 2: we had I think we had the first transgender person.
Speaker 2: Now I think we had two transgender pers one in
Speaker 2: the UK and one here and a guy who won
Speaker 2: one year had tourets And you think, imagine applying for
Speaker 2: Big Brother and you have tourettes. I mean, it's just phenomenal,
Speaker 2: isn't that.
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting? Reality TV has really changed. What
Speaker 1: is the biggest significant change about making it from when
Speaker 1: it started, you know, because you were there for the
Speaker 1: really the inception of it, to how it's being made now.
Speaker 2: So there are two things. One, I think that we've
Speaker 2: become a little bit lazy as an industry. And I
Speaker 2: think that is because the same producers go from one
Speaker 2: show to the next, and it's like the same chefs
Speaker 2: going from one restaurant to the next. All the restaurants
Speaker 2: suddenly taste the same. And I would say to my
Speaker 2: teams were not allowed to use cliches. So there's a
Speaker 2: lovely woman, Caroline Spencer Spence, she calls them no shit
Speaker 2: sharelocks that you go no shit sharelock. So it's a
Speaker 2: bit like you're interviewing Yoursain Bolt in the Olympics on
Speaker 2: the start line. Then you'd say, do you think you're
Speaker 2: gonna win this? You know, do you want to do
Speaker 2: you want to win this? They kind of go, well,
Speaker 2: of course I want to win it. I'm I'm in
Speaker 2: the Olympics. Of course I want to I mean, of course.
Speaker 2: But in reality people would say things like, I really
Speaker 2: want to win this, but of course it's a competition.
Speaker 2: You're idiot, of course, you know, but it's bad producing.
Speaker 2: Or they'll say, how are you today, I'm nervous but excited.
Speaker 2: That's everybody in every reality show in the history of
Speaker 2: reality shows says exactly the same thing. I'm nervous but excited.
Speaker 2: Everyone says it. Now. I say to my team, ask them,
Speaker 2: why why are you nervous? Well, I've never sung in
Speaker 2: public before. Why because my mum wants me to be
Speaker 2: a lawyer. And says to my dad because my dad's
Speaker 2: a lawyer, and says my uncle and says my brother
Speaker 2: and says my granddad. Ah, right, okay, So are they
Speaker 2: here today?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Do they know you're here. No, right, okay, where are they?
Speaker 2: Just out there brilliant. So you get a camera on
Speaker 2: the parents and you say, we're just talking to some
Speaker 2: audience members. Why are you here today? Well, you know,
Speaker 2: our kid got as tickets? Oh as your kids sing? No,
Speaker 2: my kid's a lawyer. Oh right, okay. Do they want
Speaker 2: to sing? Have they ever sung? Have you ever seen
Speaker 2: them sing? No? No, no, no, no no no. Where
Speaker 2: are they today? They're at work? Oh okay. And you
Speaker 2: have the kid walk on stage, you have the parents
Speaker 2: go yikesy, and suddenly you have a beautiful, beautiful story.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter whether the kid can sing or not.
Speaker 2: If they can sing, it's wonderful. If they can't sing,
Speaker 2: you know, you just end it by saying, you know
Speaker 2: the jury is out, you're runner or whatever, but you
Speaker 2: know it's really good. Producers are curious people, and if
Speaker 2: you are one of those producers says they've said nervous
Speaker 2: but excited, tick, then you're never going anywhere. But if
Speaker 2: you are interested in people and you think differently, then
Speaker 2: you will always come up with the story. People are fascinating.
Speaker 2: But it's our job to find that fascinating story because
Speaker 2: sometimes you have to really scratch and dig to find it,
Speaker 2: and it's your actual job. So I'd say to my
Speaker 2: teams they go, oh, there's nothing interesting about this person.
Speaker 2: They go, of course there is, but it's your job
Speaker 2: to find it. It's your job. That's why I employ you.
Speaker 2: It's to go and find that amazing story. It's actually
Speaker 2: your job.
Speaker 1: What do you think about pre recorded reality TV? We've
Speaker 1: seen it, you know, Survivor was pre recorded, and then
Speaker 1: Big Brother is now pre recorded. We've just seen I'm
Speaker 1: a Celebrity pre recorded, and you know, the cost is
Speaker 1: really down. Do you think we're heading into a space
Speaker 1: where nearly all reality television is going to be pre recorded?
Speaker 2: I love Survivor. I think Survivor is probably my favorite format,
Speaker 2: and it's because it's an extraordinarily honest format. It's your
Speaker 2: job to be conniving and win, and everyone does that.
Speaker 2: Of course, everyone on every show is conniving to win.
Speaker 2: It's just people pretend they're not. You know, I'm not
Speaker 2: really here to win. I'm just here to have a
Speaker 2: good time. No, you're not, because you've worked too hard
Speaker 2: to get onto that show. If you didn't spend four
Speaker 2: months trying to get onto a show that you're not
Speaker 2: bothered about winning, So just be honest about it. Just
Speaker 2: be honest on Survivor, it's your job to connive and.
Speaker 1: Throw people under the bus blindside.
Speaker 2: Yes, so I really like that. I love Big Brother Live.
Speaker 2: I really like it live because I think it's a
Speaker 2: more exciting show when it's live, and I like that
Speaker 2: audiences can influence the show enormously, and I think we're
Speaker 2: all in it together. You know, you see it in
Speaker 2: the papers and you know. And also I do one
Speaker 2: of the funny things about Big Brother though it's my
Speaker 2: I hate starting a sentence with this is interesting or
Speaker 2: this is funny, because whenever anyone does it with me,
Speaker 2: I always say, I'll be the judge of that. Thanks.
Speaker 2: But David Brown was the publicist on Big Brother, I
Speaker 2: love dB, and he would come with the pilot press
Speaker 2: and he'd say, this is interesting. There's an article here
Speaker 2: that says, you know, we have a jail being built
Speaker 2: in the middle of the house, and you go, that's
Speaker 2: a good idea, should we build one? And one year
Speaker 2: we did actually build a naughty room, like a glass
Speaker 2: room in the middle of the house that people went
Speaker 2: into when they were naughty, because we'd read it in
Speaker 2: the paper, which I's a really good idea. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: ideas come from everywhere, and sometimes they come from the
Speaker 2: Daily Mail or the Mirror or the Sun or the
Speaker 2: Age or yeah, so thank you journalists. Yeah. I stopped
Speaker 2: doing it because I actually thought I have no ideas left.
Speaker 2: And the final idea that I had that I still
Speaker 2: think it was a good idea, which we never did,
Speaker 2: was to put an intruder in the house with a
Speaker 2: treasure hunt and you'd put them inside a box, bury
Speaker 2: them in the garden with you know, full scuba suit
Speaker 2: and whatever, and you would give the housemates clues and
Speaker 2: they would have to find the housemate. And you know,
Speaker 2: my boss was saying, but what if they don't find them,
Speaker 2: you know, if they die in the garden. Now, of
Speaker 2: course we'd give them like loads of We're not going
Speaker 2: to give them ten minutes of oxygen, are we. But
Speaker 2: that was that was the day when I thought, if
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of ideas like this, I should probably stop
Speaker 2: doing this show.
Speaker 1: If I'm thinking of ideas that are going to kill
Speaker 1: the housemates, then maybe it's time to do Dancing with
Speaker 1: the Stars or something else.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's time to go and do a cooking show.
Speaker 1: Now, I'm scared about you doing cooking because you'll end
Speaker 1: up burning them on series.
Speaker 2: Eight, Take the Knives Away.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of interest these days as well in
Speaker 1: finding out the secrets behind these shows being made. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you're aware of it, but you know
Speaker 1: now that they're being pre made. How to producers protect
Speaker 1: these stories that are happening with inside the show? And
Speaker 1: can they do that? Because we've seen leaks from I'm
Speaker 1: a celebrity, We've seen leaks from Big Brother. People are
Speaker 1: trying to get photos of it. As a producer, how
Speaker 1: would you try and stop that information getting out to
Speaker 1: the public before the show goes live?
Speaker 2: Uh, you do your best. Sometimes leaks are brilliant for
Speaker 2: you because they give you rating spikes, and sometimes you know.
Speaker 2: I did one Celebrity Apprentice and the one of the
Speaker 2: camera men had posted something that obviously got the day
Speaker 2: wrong and said that isn't it wonderful Dicko wins Celebrity
Speaker 2: Apprentice last night? And we went no, the final was
Speaker 2: actually going out tonight. So and it was front page
Speaker 2: of all the papers, and it was someone with someone
Speaker 2: at the network, and I was saying to them, it's
Speaker 2: human error, and that's fine because people make mistakes all
Speaker 2: the time, and actually it's probably going to do us
Speaker 2: a world of good. So I ask my team to
Speaker 2: act honorably, and I said, we're all in this together.
Speaker 2: We all want the show to work. On Celebrity Apprentice,
Speaker 2: I would say to the stars, if you do interesting
Speaker 2: stuff off screen, you're disrespecting our viewers and you're kind
Speaker 2: of killing the ratings. And actually you want this to
Speaker 2: rate because you're on it, and when you aren't upfront,
Speaker 2: people know that you're lying. I mean, people would sound
Speaker 2: big brother. Of course, I love Benjamin. You think we
Speaker 2: have cameras on you all the time. We know you
Speaker 2: don't know that you sit in the corner with Fred.
Speaker 2: Benjamin's a nightmare. And you know, if we're in the
Speaker 2: outside world, I would, you know, dob him into the
Speaker 2: authorities and I'm arrested. But you know, people will say no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I really like them, So it's really hard. The hard
Speaker 2: one was, you know, things like farm want's wife. That's hard.
Speaker 2: So we would put all the wives in the hotel
Speaker 2: in Bahrain, and we would put the farmers in a
Speaker 2: hotel in Paris practically, and they would still manage to,
Speaker 2: you know, and we take their phones away and we
Speaker 2: wouldn't let you know, and we'd say to the local
Speaker 2: cab company, don't pick them up, you know, if they
Speaker 2: want to, you know, just don't. Producers would be in
Speaker 2: both hotels and you know, they'd still try and meet up.
Speaker 1: You.
Speaker 2: People are like it was like the says you, how
Speaker 2: is it possible that you can find each other? So yes,
Speaker 2: if you ever want anyone to be found a missing person,
Speaker 2: ask someone on a reality TV show, because they'll find
Speaker 2: them for you. Don't you worry. It's something that is
Speaker 2: just the hazard of the job, and you do your
Speaker 2: best and you hope that people will act honorably, and
Speaker 2: most of the time they do.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. They're doing a new Big Brother, which finished
Speaker 1: filming on the twenty first of December, and I know
Speaker 1: everyone that's in the show, and I know the order
Speaker 1: that they get eliminated in and all this information. And
Speaker 1: I don't ask for it, but it just comes to
Speaker 1: me and people will send it to me on Instagram.
Speaker 1: The housemates when they get evicted are disgruntled, so they've
Speaker 1: contacted me. And my partner says to me, is like,
Speaker 1: how do you know all of this stuff, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm like a vortex, Like I basically never asked the question.
Speaker 1: I never add anyone. It all just comes to me.
Speaker 1: So it's so weird.
Speaker 2: There are so many people working on shows that if
Speaker 2: you do a spoiler, it's just a little bit unkind
Speaker 2: to everyone working on the show. And I don't like gossip.
Speaker 2: I don't gossip in life. It's you know, when I
Speaker 2: was very young, my mother said to me, remember these
Speaker 2: two things. One never run after a man. Okay, that's fine,
Speaker 2: And as she said, And also, if someone wants everyone
Speaker 2: to know their business, it's their business to tell them,
Speaker 2: not yours. Never repeat anything anyone's ever told you. And
Speaker 2: in reality TV people are Alex would call me the Vault.
Speaker 2: They just make fun of me because they say, no
Speaker 2: point in asking hers. She won't tell you, And I think, no,
Speaker 2: I won't. And I think in life and at work,
Speaker 2: be the person everyone can trust, because if you are,
Speaker 2: isn't that a beautiful place to be in your life?
Speaker 2: You know, you have to have your moral code and
Speaker 2: you have to keep it. We don't have to, but
Speaker 2: it's beautiful if you do. And if you don't have
Speaker 2: for moral code, who are you and what do you
Speaker 2: have in life? Because I don't know that you have anything.
Speaker 1: Really. I think that is just amazing and so accurate
Speaker 1: for people out there. You know, it's a really good
Speaker 1: message to the people that are working on these shows,
Speaker 1: to the cast that go on them, and that is
Speaker 1: to protect their brand. You know. I made the mistake
Speaker 1: last year of being told the cast of Big Brother,
Speaker 1: and I released two of them early to the media,
Speaker 1: and then I had the whole cast, and I had
Speaker 1: media offering me money to release more of them, and
Speaker 1: then I made this conscious decision at that time to
Speaker 1: not do it. And the reason why I chose not
Speaker 1: to do it was because I thought, you know, people
Speaker 1: were telling me that this piece of information is really vital.
Speaker 1: You know, you could use this information to get somewhere
Speaker 1: and all this sort of stuff. But at the end
Speaker 1: of the day i'd been on Big Brother. No one
Speaker 1: ruined it for me, so I didn't want to ruin
Speaker 1: it for someone else, so I just stopped doing it.
Speaker 2: It's not your nature. When I ran Big Brother in
Speaker 2: the UK, I was offered I can't remember it was
Speaker 2: a huge amount of money by one of the tabloids
Speaker 2: to release the housemates, and it was a large amount
Speaker 2: of money. It would have paid off my mortgage. And
Speaker 2: I thought, I'm just not that person. I am not
Speaker 2: that human. And as a guy in the UK TV
Speaker 2: host called Chris Evans and he did something mean to me,
Speaker 2: and he told one of my friends that it was
Speaker 2: because I'd collaborated on a book about him, and I said,
Speaker 2: please go back to him and say, hey, it's not
Speaker 2: my nature. And b if I was going to collaborate
Speaker 2: and talk about him, I would call him and tell
Speaker 2: him that I was doing it so he would notice me.
Speaker 2: I would do it behind his back. I'm very much.
Speaker 2: You know, if you're going to be stabbed by me,
Speaker 2: absolutely go, I'm going to come over tomorrow at three
Speaker 2: o'clock and stab you. You're right with that, yeah, brilliant,
Speaker 2: you know, and I think you kind of you're either
Speaker 2: that person or you're not. And if you are going
Speaker 2: to be in this industry, you cannot be that person
Speaker 2: because no one will ever trust you. And even in life,
Speaker 2: just don't be that person. You know, have a moral
Speaker 2: code and you know, stick to it as much as
Speaker 2: you can. And I'm not saying that, you know, I
Speaker 2: get everything right. I would say, ninety nine percent of
Speaker 2: the things I do are completely and utterly wrong, but
Speaker 2: I try for the other one percent to do my
Speaker 2: best to you know, be kind and ethical, and I
Speaker 2: get it right very rarely, but I do think about.
Speaker 1: It before I let you go. Maz. My last question
Speaker 1: is what is your funniest go to story that you
Speaker 1: say over dinner conversation when you look back at all
Speaker 1: the reality shows that you've been on. You've told us
Speaker 1: some amazing stories today, but what the go to story
Speaker 1: for dinner conversation being that you've worked on all these shows.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I tell you the most one of
Speaker 2: my favorite moments is it's not funny particularly, but it's
Speaker 2: just really interesting because you know, I'm fascinated by people,
Speaker 2: and I think when we first met, you were going
Speaker 2: to be an intruder on Big Brothers. Now, intruders do
Speaker 2: a really serious job. We call them grenades. You know,
Speaker 2: a good intruder is like a housemate times ten, because
Speaker 2: you're going into a family that's already established and you're
Speaker 2: the child that no one really wants to be there,
Speaker 2: and that's really difficult. You've got to be really strong.
Speaker 2: And we were auditioning people for the part of an intruder.
Speaker 2: And this guy came in and sometimes, you know, we
Speaker 2: talked about this earlier. People will tell you whatever they
Speaker 2: think that you want to hear, so they won't really
Speaker 2: be honest. They'll just tell you stuff that they think
Speaker 2: you want to hear, and it never really works because
Speaker 2: I don't know. And I said to this guy, I
Speaker 2: don't know if you're telling me stuff that I want
Speaker 2: to hear, because he was saying, you know, I sleep
Speaker 2: in my car. I pretend that I'm a millionaire and
Speaker 2: that I'm drunk and I can't drive home to my
Speaker 2: beachfront penthouse, so I get a lot of action and
Speaker 2: I just sleep with you know, chicks in the car.
Speaker 2: Because I was saying to how did you get action
Speaker 2: if you're living in a car, And he was this
Speaker 2: beautiful guy, really interesting, well educated, but it's just very
Speaker 2: hard times lived in a car in a nightclub park,
Speaker 2: car park. And I said to him, I'm borderline with you.
Speaker 2: I really like you, but I feel like you're feeding
Speaker 2: me lines that you think I want. And he said,
Speaker 2: you know, well, it's easy for you to sit there
Speaker 2: and ask the questions, isn't it. That said, Okay, ask
Speaker 2: me one question, one question that really gets to the
Speaker 2: heart of me. You have one question to ask me.
Speaker 2: He waited about this long, and he said, if someone
Speaker 2: hurts someone in your family really badly and you could
Speaker 2: kill them and get away with it, would you do it? Oh?
Speaker 2: My god, whate interesting fascinating question. What an interesting human
Speaker 2: you are fascinating. He didn't have that question in his
Speaker 2: back pocket. It just came out. We put him into
Speaker 2: the house. He was straight back again, asould imagine, but
Speaker 2: that was probably my favorite, one of my favorite moments.
Speaker 2: And as he walked out the door, he turned around
Speaker 2: and he said, what's the answer?
Speaker 4: You go?
Speaker 2: Man? That is so interesting, isn't it so interesting?
Speaker 1: Well? That is amazing. I just want to say thank
Speaker 1: you so much for your time, and it's just been
Speaker 1: such an insight. I can't wait to see which shows
Speaker 1: you work on next. You are brilliant. You're a brilliant mind,
Speaker 1: You're an empathetic person, and I can't thank you enough
Speaker 1: for being able to sit here and ramble on with
Speaker 1: me for the afternoon.
Speaker 2: Absolute pleasure. It's an absolute honor to be on your show.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I think you're very clever and a beautiful human, so
Speaker 2: thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1: Thanks, Thanks Mez