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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now. Wind Down

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Speaker 1: includes aspects that help physiologically and psychologically. So yes, having

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Speaker 1: a dark room for sleep is important, but starting to

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Speaker 1: dim the lights in the household up to two hours

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Speaker 1: before bedtime can help enormously.

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Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show.

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Speaker 3: My mom and Dad.

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Speaker 2: It's so ironic that today I'm having a conversation with

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Speaker 2: two experts on sleep because for some reason, I have

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Speaker 2: no idea why. But last night, let's just say, I'm

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Speaker 2: looking shabby this morning. I couldn't get to sleep until

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Speaker 2: after midnight. I'm normally in bed by like eight thirty

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Speaker 2: or nine o'clock. I haven't had a shave because I've

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Speaker 2: woken up feeling a little dusty. And I don't drink alcohol.

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Speaker 2: There's no alcohol involved or anything like this. I just

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Speaker 2: couldn't sleep last night. Today's podcast is not about me

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Speaker 2: and sleep or you and sleep, although I think I'll

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Speaker 2: probably pick up a few lessons. But we are talking

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Speaker 2: to the authors of Generation Sleepless. Heatherturgent and Julie Wright

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Speaker 2: have written three books together. They're psychotherapists, in the United States,

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Speaker 2: one in LA one in New York, and we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about what it is to help our kids

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Speaker 2: to have healthy sleep when we're raising a generation of

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Speaker 2: kids who, with the advent of screens, especially when they're

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Speaker 2: sneaking them into their rooms, seem to have endless energy

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Speaker 2: for staying up late at night. Julie and Heather, it's

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Speaker 2: great to have you on the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for joining me, Thanks for having us. Thank you

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Speaker 3: so much.

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Speaker 2: Is this a new problem? I mean, when I think

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Speaker 2: back to what I was like as a teenager, I

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Speaker 2: never wanted to go to sleep. I want to stay

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Speaker 2: up forever, and I kind of tried to a fair bit.

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Speaker 2: Are we dealing with something specific and new to to

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Speaker 2: today's youth or has this always been an adolescent issue.

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Speaker 4: It has been always an adolescent issue for decades. I

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Speaker 4: would say since the nineteen nineties, teens have been sleeping

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Speaker 4: the worst of all of us. They are the most

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Speaker 4: deprived age group of all of us, but their sleep

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Speaker 4: has been going downhill ever since. So now, with the

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Speaker 4: advent of technology and early school start times and academic

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Speaker 4: overload pressure to get into college, the sleep of teenagers

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Speaker 4: is being squeezed on both ends. We describe it in

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Speaker 4: the book as a perfect storm, and yes, it is more.

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Speaker 4: It is more acute now than ever before.

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Speaker 2: So you've mentioned screens and technology and bedrooms. This is

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Speaker 2: one of those things that parents of teenagers are going

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Speaker 2: to be rolling the rising, going, oh my goodness, drives

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Speaker 2: me up the wall. But it's not just teenagers either, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean little kids. They're on their screens, playing with

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Speaker 2: their games or listening to their meditation apps or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and they're only three or four or five or six

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Speaker 2: years old. You've mentioned the academic pressure that's going on

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Speaker 2: as well. Correct me if I'm wrong. But from my

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Speaker 2: undergraduate psychology studies, I don't know how many years ago now, Julie,

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Speaker 2: I have this vague recollection that teenagers are actually biologically

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Speaker 2: wide to go to bed later and wake up later.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, their sleep clock is naturally later, and this

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Speaker 1: happens when puberty starts. So you know, we think of

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Speaker 1: teenagers as just you know, reluctant to go to bed

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Speaker 1: and just don't want to listen to us, but their

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Speaker 1: sleep clocks are actually delayed, so they might be you know,

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Speaker 1: in a natural state without technology and academic overload and

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Speaker 1: all of that, they they're going to be ready to

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Speaker 1: go to sleep about one to two hours later than

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Speaker 1: before this. So that's the first thing, and that's something

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Speaker 1: we don't we can't change. That's biological. But when you

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Speaker 1: add to that piles of homework, and you add too

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Speaker 1: many activities that you know preceded getting their homework done,

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Speaker 1: and then you add to that the advent of technology,

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Speaker 1: which takes that natural delay, all of those things take

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Speaker 1: that natural delay and extend it even further, especially because

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Speaker 1: at that point in the evening they really want to

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Speaker 1: have a little fun and connect with their friends. So

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Speaker 1: it is a perfect storm, and it is it is

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Speaker 1: a big problem, ladies.

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Speaker 2: I have six daughters. My oldest is well, she's moved

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Speaker 2: out and married, and I've now got my fifth child

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Speaker 2: entering adolescens. And so the kids, they're just getting going

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Speaker 2: at eight thirty, and we kind of look at them

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Speaker 2: as parents and we're struggling to keep our eyes open.

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Speaker 2: Our tempers are afraid, we're exhausted. We've got pressure about what's

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Speaker 2: going to happen tomorrow, and we know that tomorrow morning,

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Speaker 2: the children are going to be hard to get out

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Speaker 2: of bed because they're saying that it's eight thirty and

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Speaker 2: I'm not tired Dad, I don't need to go to

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Speaker 2: bed yet. I could go for ages, And you're like, no, no,

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Speaker 2: you can't go for ages. You're killing me. Talk to

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Speaker 2: me about this generation sleepless challenge and what parents are

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Speaker 2: supposed to do to navigate, whether they're teenagers or little kids,

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Speaker 2: how do we get them into a healthy sleep routine,

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Speaker 2: especially when they're so resistant.

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Speaker 4: So what you're describing is what we would call the

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Speaker 4: second wind, and it really has an underlying biology to it,

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Speaker 4: which is your your circadian system, the sleep clock that

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Speaker 4: governs your sleep. It gives you a last boost of

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Speaker 4: energy before your bedtime. So it's natural for kids to

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Speaker 4: wind up before they wind down. That's really natural. But

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Speaker 4: the other thing is that they are more susceptible because

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Speaker 4: they have you know there, because of the way their

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Speaker 4: eyes are developing, because of their brains, they're more susceptible

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Speaker 4: to light than we are. So light delay is your

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Speaker 4: sleep and young adolescents are very susceptible to that delay.

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Speaker 4: So melatonin is suppressed, drowsiness is suppressed much more easily

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Speaker 4: than it is for us, which means and sort of

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Speaker 4: both of those things combined mean that having a wind

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Speaker 4: down time is super important, you know, for all of us,

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Speaker 4: but especially for older kids and young teenagers.

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Speaker 2: So can we unpack that a little more, because everybody

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Speaker 2: knows that we're supposed to wind down, and as adults,

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Speaker 2: we don't have any problem with that at all. Where

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Speaker 2: did wind down from? About five pm? Right? Okay, let's

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Speaker 2: slow things down. But the children, like you said, they

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Speaker 2: get that energy burst. And let's be honest, a lot

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Speaker 2: of mainly dads, kind of see bedtime as an opportunity

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Speaker 2: to rile the kids up a little bit. Let's have

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Speaker 2: a wrestle, Let's have a tickle, let's have some fun.

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Speaker 2: If you were to put together the and I know

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Speaker 2: that there's going to be a lot of individual differences,

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Speaker 2: but if you were to talk through some really useful

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Speaker 2: wind down strategies, maybe for little kids and then for

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Speaker 2: big kids, what would you suggest, Bearing in mind, of course,

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Speaker 2: the sleep hygien stuff like having a dark room and

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Speaker 2: having not not too much noise and the right temperature,

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Speaker 2: all those kinds of things, what else would you put

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Speaker 2: in there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such a good question.

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Speaker 1: Wind down includes aspects that help physiologically and psychologically. So yes,

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Speaker 1: having a dark room for sleep is important, but starting

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Speaker 1: to dim the lights in the household up to two

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Speaker 1: hours before bed time can help enormously. It can help

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Speaker 1: your kids actually feel sleepy as it gets closer to bedtime.

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Speaker 1: So we help parents with using lamps with dimmers, and

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Speaker 1: you know, warm colored light bulbs, turning off bright overhead lights.

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Speaker 1: If it's summer, you know, you might be even closing

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Speaker 1: some blinds or some curtains, so you're starting to simulate sunset.

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Speaker 1: That helps really smelotonin and prepare the body for sleep.

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Speaker 1: So that's one aspect of wind down. For younger kids.

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Speaker 1: Wind down almost always includes turning screens off.

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Speaker 3: All screens in.

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Speaker 1: The home, including moms and dads. Everybody screens for at

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Speaker 1: least an hour before bedtime. And then another aspect of

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Speaker 1: it for younger children is to.

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Speaker 3: Just give them the feeling. And you can do this

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Speaker 3: for teens too. I mean, if it's a family movement

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Speaker 3: towards sleep, you get give them the feeling.

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Speaker 1: I think it's easy when your kids are older and

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Speaker 1: you definitely go to bed before they do, but just

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Speaker 1: giving your kids the feeling that the whole household is

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Speaker 1: winding down, so they don't feel like they're missing out

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Speaker 1: on something that's hard with technology because they're getting all

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Speaker 1: this input. So then the trick is to shift to

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Speaker 1: doing something together as a family, maybe watching a TV

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Speaker 1: show for thirty minutes, which is fine to you, you know.

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Speaker 3: Or taking a walk with the dog, or doing.

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Speaker 1: Something together, or you know, letting them listen to some

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Speaker 1: music or listen to an audiobook as they start to

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Speaker 1: wind down. So there are tons of things and every

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Speaker 1: person has to find the wind down that works best

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Speaker 1: for them.

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Speaker 2: It sounds idyllic, it's actually making me feel a little

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Speaker 2: bit relaxed. I was speaking with Hebeturgen and Julie Wright.

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Speaker 2: They are the authors of The Happy Sleeper and a

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Speaker 2: new book, Generation Sleepless, which has been out for just

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Speaker 2: a few weeks now. Generation Sleepless helps us to uncover

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Speaker 2: the greatest threats to our teenager's physical and mental health

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Speaker 2: around sleep deprivation. After the break, we're going to have

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Speaker 2: a conversation about the new South Wales government's plans to

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Speaker 2: rejig school start times for our teenagers to make life

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Speaker 2: well apparently more flexible. It's a curious idea and it's

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Speaker 2: going to have an impact on the way kids respond

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Speaker 2: to well, the way the way kids are getting their sleep.

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Speaker 2: We need to understand that research. And I'm going to

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Speaker 2: ask for some advice to find out if some of

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Speaker 2: the advice that I've been giving is actually good advice

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Speaker 2: at all, because these sleep experts probably know more about

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Speaker 2: it than me. The twenty first century is a tricky

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Speaker 2: time to be a teen girl. Alcohol, drugs, mental health concerns,

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Speaker 2: body image issues, technology, sex. Our daughters face all these

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Speaker 2: and more. The Happy Famili's Misconnection Summit brings together the

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Speaker 2: best modern day experts on teen girls to show you

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Speaker 2: how to stay connected with your daughter and help her

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Speaker 2: face these challenges head on. Available online via video at

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Speaker 2: the Happy Families webshop. It's the Happy Families Podcast, the

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Speaker 2: podcast for the time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now we're talking about generations sleepless. What is going on

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Speaker 2: with these kids who are so excited at bedtime with

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Speaker 2: their screens and with their friends, with everything else is

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Speaker 2: going on that they just don't want to go to sleep.

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Speaker 2: Heapatogen and Julie Wright are the authors of the best

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Speaker 2: Sellerup The Happy Sleeper and Generation Sleepless is their latest

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Speaker 2: book looking at the latest scientific research around our most

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Speaker 2: sleep private population in human history, our teenagers, Julie and Heather.

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Speaker 2: My question for you now revolves around a recent series

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Speaker 2: of news articles over the last couple of months coming

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Speaker 2: out of New South Wales, our most populous state. Here

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Speaker 2: in Australia, the government, based on what's happened over the

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Speaker 2: last two years with COVID, the government's starting to say

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Speaker 2: we can make work more flexible and school has not

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Speaker 2: been thought, has not been rejigged for like one hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty two hundred years. I wonder what it would

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Speaker 2: be like if we started school earlier. So in Australia

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Speaker 2: we generally have high school starting somewhere between eight thirty

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Speaker 2: and nine. That's pretty well standard, and they're talking about

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Speaker 2: moving it forward. You talk in your book about a

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Speaker 2: whole lot of research that suggests this may not be

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Speaker 2: good for our kids. Can you help us to understand

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Speaker 2: a bit more about that.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it is because of what Julie was describing about

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Speaker 4: the sleep clock of adolescens.

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Speaker 3: It shifts leader.

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Speaker 4: So the melatonin at a very legitimately at a biological level,

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Speaker 4: teenagers are not tired as early as they once were,

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Speaker 4: and they are also not ready to wake up at

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Speaker 4: a time that they once were, so having to wake

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Speaker 4: up really early for school, it's almost an impossible math

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Speaker 4: that we're expecting of them. And one of the dangerous

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Speaker 4: things is that they miss the morning sleep time, which

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Speaker 4: is when they have their dreams. It's when rem sleep

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Speaker 4: occurs in the last two hours of the night is

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Speaker 4: when most of our dreaming happens, and that is extremely

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Speaker 4: important for emotional health. So if we cut off that time,

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Speaker 4: we are essentially cutting off like what we call it

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Speaker 4: overnight therapy. We're cutting off that time. And because of

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Speaker 4: what we've been describing, you can't just tell your teenager

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Speaker 4: to go to bed extra early to make up for

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Speaker 4: that sleep. So early school start times are really really

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Speaker 4: robbing teenagers a valuable brain construction time and really important sleep.

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Speaker 4: So here the American Academy of Pediatrics here recommends eight

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Speaker 4: thirty or later for high school, and there are different

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Speaker 4: states that are trying to make that shift to eight thirty,

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Speaker 4: but that is kind of the earliest that you can

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Speaker 4: reasonably expect most teenagers to be able to get eight

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Speaker 4: hours of sleep. Let's say on average.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to explore something around this, because to me,

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Speaker 2: it's logical, even though you've just refuted it. It's logical

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Speaker 2: to say, well, if you need to get that number

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Speaker 2: of hours of sleep, let's just bring your sleep earlier.

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Speaker 2: Let's get you up two hours earlier, which means that tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: And this is kind of the question that I wanted

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Speaker 2: to ask anyway about the advice that I give to

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Speaker 2: parents when their kids just won't get up because they

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Speaker 2: just won't go to sleep. The advice that I'll often

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Speaker 2: give is, so let's just let them know they can

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Speaker 2: stay up as long as they want, but they still

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Speaker 2: have to get up at seven o'clock, for example, or

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Speaker 2: six thirty or whatever time it is. If you know

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Speaker 2: that you've got to get up at that hour and

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Speaker 2: you are expected to get up and not be grumpy

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Speaker 2: and not make the whole house miserable because we've gotten

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Speaker 2: you up because we said seven o'clock is wake up time,

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Speaker 2: what I would imagine should happen is that the kid's

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Speaker 2: body clock will reset over a period of two, three,

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Speaker 2: four days, where if you're getting them up at seven

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Speaker 2: o'clock every day, even if they are staying up to

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Speaker 2: midnight or one or two, because if you've decided not

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Speaker 2: to force them to go to bed, within two or

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Speaker 2: three days, they will be exhausted and they will be

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Speaker 2: ready to go to bed at nine o'clock, which means

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Speaker 2: that the next morning they'll wake up at seven and

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Speaker 2: then hey, pristo, their body is their body clock is

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Speaker 2: back on song and everything's working right. You're laughing at

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Speaker 2: me while I'm saying this, But it makes logical sense, right, It.

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Speaker 1: Makes logical sense when you think about how we adjust

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Speaker 1: to jet lag when we change time zones, and how

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Speaker 1: our bodies do adjust over time.

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Speaker 2: Great example.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but the problem with teenagers is this biological sleep

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Speaker 1: based delay combined with their you know, their academic overload

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Speaker 1: and their technology use and the fact that teenagers can

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Speaker 1: absolutely survive and function. They're not functioning well and they're

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Speaker 1: not feeling great, but they can function and way less

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Speaker 1: than optimal sleep. The reason we wrote the book was

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Speaker 1: because we uncovered a really alarming crisis where teenagers are

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Speaker 1: something like ninety percent are getting way less sleep, like

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Speaker 1: two hours a night less sleep than they need. And

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Speaker 1: it's not a coincidence that anxiety and depression are on

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Speaker 1: the rise.

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Speaker 3: At least in our country.

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Speaker 1: I think it's true around the world, So it's really

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Speaker 1: not something too in our opinion to even contemplate making

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Speaker 1: school start times earlier. If you guys have this around

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Speaker 1: eight thirty start time, you are, you're in good shape.

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Speaker 3: Where this country.

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Speaker 1: Is trying so hard to turn that around, because our

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Speaker 1: teens are really sufferings.

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Speaker 3: It's a crisis.

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Speaker 1: And if only that would convince them to go to

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Speaker 1: bed at a reasonable time, it doesn't work that way

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Speaker 1: for teenagers.

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Speaker 2: Fascinating, if parents are going, well, how many hours my

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Speaker 2: kids are functioning? Falling on six and a half seven

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Speaker 2: hours sleep a lot. They're working hard, they're committed, they're

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Speaker 2: having fun with their friends, they're doing all the right stuff.

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Speaker 2: But they're getting six or seven hours sleep a lot.

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Speaker 2: Is that enough and they're supposed to be getting more?

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Speaker 2: What do you think, based on the American Academy of

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Speaker 2: Pediatrics and all the other scientists that are out there

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Speaker 2: making noise about this, what would you say parents need

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Speaker 2: to know around the amount of sleep those kids need

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Speaker 2: to be getting.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 1: First of all, it's really good to know that during

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Speaker 1: the teenage years and enormous amount of restructuring and remodeling.

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Speaker 3: It's going on in the brain, and.

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Speaker 1: It's actually a time when they need a lot more

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Speaker 1: sleep than people think. So teenagers sleep an average of

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Speaker 1: about nine and a quarter hours in a natural setting

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Speaker 1: with no artificial cues.

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Speaker 3: So what we write in the book is we.

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Speaker 1: Would love to see all teenagers get at least eight hours,

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Speaker 1: but the optimal is about nine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Wow, interesting, Well, what a delightful and important comment. Thank

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Speaker 2: you so much to the two authors of Generation Sleepless,

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Speaker 2: Heather Turgeon and Julie Wright. If you'd like more info

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Speaker 2: about their book, we will link to it in the

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Speaker 2: show notes. Ladies, thanks so much for the great work

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Speaker 2: that you've done, and I hope that this book is

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Speaker 2: able to reach and help so many parents of kids

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Speaker 2: who just need that little extra shut eye.

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Speaker 4: Thank you thanks for having us.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families Podcast, as always, is produced by Justin

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Speaker 2: Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 2: And for more info on making your family happier, you

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Speaker 2: can pick up Heather and Julie's books, The Happy Sleeper

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Speaker 2: and Generation Sleepless. That's their latest one, from wherever your

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Speaker 2: favorite bookseller exists, and you can also Visit happy Families

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Speaker 2: dot com dot au for more.