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Speaker 1: Already and this is the daily Ars. This is the

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Speaker 1: dailiahs oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Daily Os. I'm zara, I'm billy.

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Speaker 1: Last week, a fourteen year old killed four people, two

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Speaker 1: students and two teachers at his school in the US

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Speaker 1: state of Georgia. He also injured another nine in what

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Speaker 1: was the country's three hundred and eighty fifth mass shooting

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Speaker 1: this year. In the days following the incident, the shooter's

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Speaker 1: father has been arrested for multiple charges, including involuntary manslaughter,

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Speaker 1: in relation to his son's killings. So should parents be

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Speaker 1: held legally liable for the actions of their child? In

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Speaker 1: today's deep dive, we will explore the precedent that has

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Speaker 1: been set in the US before that, though Zara. What

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Speaker 1: is making headlines today?

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Speaker 2: The federal government has confirmed there will be questions on

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Speaker 2: both sexual orientation and gender identity in the twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: sixth census. The government backflipped on its decision to not

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Speaker 2: include these questions in the next census, following criticism from

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Speaker 2: LGBTIQ plus advocates and some labour MPs. Speaking on ABC's Insiders,

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Speaker 2: Treasurer Jim Chalmers said the government had quote understood the

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Speaker 2: feedback it received and took it very seriously.

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Speaker 1: The UK government has launched an investigation into Ticketmaster following

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Speaker 1: complaints about the purchase process for the long awaited Oasis reunion.

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Speaker 1: The band, led by brothers Liam and Noel Gallagher, announced

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Speaker 1: last month they would reunite after decades away from the stage,

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Speaker 1: sparking huge demand for tickets. Now, the UK Competition and

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Speaker 1: Markets Authority its equivalent to Australia's ABLEC, is investigating ticket

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Speaker 1: Master's dynamic pricing. The feature adjust ticket prices based on

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Speaker 1: how many pe people are trying to buy them. It's

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Speaker 1: set to consider whether this was legal and if prospective

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Speaker 1: buyers were given enough notice that dynamic pricing would be

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Speaker 1: in place. The CMA said it wants customers to submit

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Speaker 1: proof or photos of their purchasing experience to assist the investigation.

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Speaker 2: The bus driver responsible for a crash that killed ten

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Speaker 2: people and injured twenty five others in the Hunter Valley

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Speaker 2: last year will face sentencing this week. Brett Andrew Butden

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Speaker 2: pleaded guilty to ten counts of dangerous driving causing death,

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Speaker 2: nine counts of dangerous driving causing grievous bodily harm and

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Speaker 2: sixteen counts of furious driving causing bodily harm. The families

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Speaker 2: and loved ones of the victims will be in caught

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Speaker 2: to deliver victim impact statements.

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Speaker 1: In today's Good News. In a potential breakthrough for the

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Speaker 1: future of medical imaging, researchers in the US have discovered

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Speaker 1: a way to use food dye to see through skin.

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Speaker 1: A team at Stanford University tested a blend of chemicals

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Speaker 1: in including common food dye, on mice, which allowed scientists

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Speaker 1: to see the animal's organs and blood flow. The mixture

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Speaker 1: washed off with water, leaving the mice unharmed. If this

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Speaker 1: process works on humans, researchers said it could replace X

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Speaker 1: rays and other scans, and even make laser tattoo removal easier.

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Speaker 1: Lead scientist Guassong Hoong said quote, if we could just

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Speaker 1: look at what's going on under the skin instead of

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Speaker 1: cutting into it or using radiation to get a less

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Speaker 1: than clear look, we could change the way we see

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Speaker 1: the human body.

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Speaker 2: So, Billy, in today's deep Dive, I know that you

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Speaker 2: want to explore this angle that we've seen in headlines,

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Speaker 2: and you and I have been speaking about a bit,

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Speaker 2: which is whether or not parents should be held criminally

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Speaker 2: responsible for their child's criminal actions. Before we explore that angle, though,

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Speaker 2: I did just want you to maybe take a step

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Speaker 2: back and lay out the facts as to why we're

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Speaker 2: actually talking about this story today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, on Wednesday last week, a fourteen year old

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Speaker 1: boy was arrested over a fatal school shooting in the

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Speaker 1: US state of Georgia. Now, authorities alleged that the fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old boy opened fire at his local high school,

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Speaker 1: and it's alleged that he killed two teachers and two

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Speaker 1: students before he surrendered two authorities. I think it's one

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Speaker 1: of the rare examples where the shooter is actually still alive,

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Speaker 1: and so he is in custody and he faced court

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Speaker 1: on Friday. Nine others were also injured in the shooting,

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Speaker 1: and at the time of recording, no motive has been identified.

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Speaker 1: We do know that he seemed to have this real

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Speaker 1: interest around mass shootings, but we don't know too much

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Speaker 1: more about that. Authorities are still investigating that. What we

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Speaker 1: do know is that it was the state of George's

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Speaker 1: deadliest school shooting in its history, and we also know,

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Speaker 1: according to analysis by The Washington Post, that the boy

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Speaker 1: is the youngest Mas school shooter in about twenty five

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Speaker 1: years in the US. Now, the fourteen year old was

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Speaker 1: charged with four counts of felony murder, and authorities have

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Speaker 1: announced that they have charged him as an adult, not

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Speaker 1: as a minor, which is allowed in the state of Georgia.

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Speaker 1: Now why we're talking about it today is that on

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Speaker 1: Thursday night, authorities held a press conference and they announced

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Speaker 1: that the father of the fourteen year old boy has

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Speaker 1: also been arrested and is facing his own charges in

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Speaker 1: relation to his son's actions. And you could really tell

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Speaker 1: during the press conference, which was, like I said, just

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Speaker 1: held two days after the mass shooting, just how raw

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Speaker 1: the devastation still was.

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Speaker 3: We're heartbroken. A young person brought a gun into a school,

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Speaker 3: committed an evil act, and he took lives, and he

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Speaker 3: injured many other people, not only physically but mentally.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, obviously the investigation into the shooter and

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Speaker 2: what motivated him and why he did what he did

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Speaker 2: is ongoing, So we might just park that there for

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Speaker 2: a second. But what I find so interesting is that

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Speaker 2: you mentioned the father has been arrested.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it goes around this idea that just because the

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Speaker 1: father didn't pull the trigger does that mean that he

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Speaker 1: can't be held legally liable for his son's actions?

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Speaker 2: What has he been charged with? Because I imagine that

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Speaker 2: that's quite a complex legal area to explore.

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Speaker 1: So he was arrested and charged with four counts of

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Speaker 1: involuntary manslaughterer, two counts of second degree murder, and eight

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Speaker 1: counts of cruelty to children.

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Speaker 2: Can you just step listeners through what those charges actually mean?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know that we didn't get a whole

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Speaker 2: heap of information, but just in a general sense, what

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Speaker 2: do those mean?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the authorities did decline to explain the charges further. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you quickly what those different charges usually mean.

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Speaker 1: So involuntary manslaughter essentially means the illegal killing of someone

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Speaker 1: without malice and without intent, and then second degree murder

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Speaker 1: means the killing was unplanned or it was impulsive. Now,

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Speaker 1: the only thing that authorities did say in relation to

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Speaker 1: these charges is that the father allegedly knowingly allowed his

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Speaker 1: son to possess a weapon. And when I was doing

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Speaker 1: research for this, I saw that sources had spoken to

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Speaker 1: CNN who had said that the shooter's father actually bought

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Speaker 1: the gun that was used in the mass shooting. As

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Speaker 1: a holiday present for his son in December of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three. Now that's just what sources are saying. It

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Speaker 1: hasn't been confirmed by the authorities, but I think it

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Speaker 1: does kind of paint a picture of kind of the

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Speaker 1: environment that this boy was possibly living in.

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Speaker 2: I also saw headlines about the fact that authorities seem

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Speaker 2: to have had prior contact with the father before this incident.

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Speaker 2: Can you just provide a bit more information there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so they had contact with the father and also

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Speaker 1: the boy. So last year, Colt Gray, that's the name

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Speaker 1: of the fourteen year old boy. He posted online a

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Speaker 1: comment that said, quote shoot up a middle school. And

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Speaker 1: so that was posted on discord under a pseudonym, a

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Speaker 1: username that wasn't his direct name, and that caused someone

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Speaker 1: who saw it to reach out to authorities to investigate

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Speaker 1: if that was a real threat. Now I should say

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Speaker 1: that at the time they didn't know if it was

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Speaker 1: definitely him. So authorities went to the boy's house and

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Speaker 1: they spoke to him. He was then thirteen years old,

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Speaker 1: and they also spoke to his father, and the boy

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Speaker 1: denied that it was him who posted that threat. Who

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Speaker 1: posted that comment, and at the time Colt's father also

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Speaker 1: told authorities that his son quote knows the seriousness of

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Speaker 1: weapons and what they can do and how to use

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Speaker 1: them and not use them. And that's according to a

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Speaker 1: transcript of the conversation that was obtained by The New

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Speaker 1: York Times. Investigators ultimately decided after that conversation with Colt

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Speaker 1: and his father that they couldn't conclusively prove that Colt

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Speaker 1: was behind the account that posted that threat, and so

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Speaker 1: they basically just left it at that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's so much there, and I'm sure there's

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Speaker 2: so much that's going to be combed through to understand how,

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Speaker 2: you know, they got from there to the incident that

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Speaker 2: happened last week. But it's clear that the shooter's father

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Speaker 2: was already in some sort of conversation with authorities. As

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Speaker 2: you said, that didn't really go anywhere. But broadening out

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Speaker 2: from just this case, is there a precedent for a

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Speaker 2: parent actually being held legally liable for the actions of

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Speaker 2: their child.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So the Georgia Bureau of Investigation was actually asked

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Speaker 1: that exact question during their press conference on Thursday, and

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Speaker 1: they said that they weren't aware of any precedent for this,

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Speaker 1: but they hadn't looked into it. Clearly it wasn't a

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Speaker 1: priority at the time, but if we look elsewhere in

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Speaker 1: the country, there is precedent for this, and there's quite

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Speaker 1: recent precedent for this. So earlier this year in the

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Speaker 1: US state of Michigan, the parents of a teenager who

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Speaker 1: murdered four students at a school in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: they were found guilty. So the parents were found guilty

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Speaker 1: of involuntary manslaughter and they were sentenced to at least

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Speaker 1: ten years in prison.

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Speaker 2: I'm just clarifying voluntary manslaughter is the same charges that

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Speaker 2: this father is facing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's included in the slate of charges that the

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Speaker 1: father is facing, but he's also facing other ones as well. Now,

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Speaker 1: the names of these parents were James and Jennifer Crumbly,

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Speaker 1: and their guilty verdict represented the first time parents in

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Speaker 1: the US had been held criminally responsible for a mass

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Speaker 1: shooting by their child.

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Speaker 2: I think that it's pretty astounding, given I think we

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Speaker 2: mentioned that we were above three hundred and fifty mass

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Speaker 2: shootings just this year alone, just in the US, that

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Speaker 2: it was only this year for the very first time,

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Speaker 2: that that precedent was set for a parent to be

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Speaker 2: held criminally responsible for the actions of their child. What

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Speaker 2: were the prosecutor's arguments in that specific case talking about

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Speaker 2: their James and Jennifer Crumbley.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So the prosecutors argued that the parents had ignored

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Speaker 1: quite clear warning signs and that they also missed cries

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Speaker 1: for help from their son, who was quite open about

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Speaker 1: the fact that he was struggling with his mental health.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of evidence about him drawing pictures

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Speaker 1: that said help me. So the prosecutors were saying that

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Speaker 1: they just completely ignored that. One of the prosecutors said

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Speaker 1: in their closing argument, referring to the dad here quote,

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Speaker 1: James Crumbly was presented with the easiest, most glaring opportunities

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Speaker 1: to prevent the deaths of these four students, and he

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Speaker 1: did nothing.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: They also said that the father had actually bought the

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Speaker 1: gun for his son as an early Christmas present for

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Speaker 1: him four days before the mass shooting occurred in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one.

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Speaker 2: Almost eerie. How yeah, how similar some of the storylines

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Speaker 2: here are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, the current case that we're talking about

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Speaker 1: is only allegations, so we can't say conclusively that there

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Speaker 1: are direct parallels, but just reading about it, you can't help.

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Speaker 1: But just think how similar these two cases do seem.

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Speaker 1: And the prosecutors also said that the parents failed to

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Speaker 1: secure the gun, so failed to put it in any

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Speaker 1: safe place that would have avoided their son using it

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Speaker 1: without their supervision. Now, that was the main focus from

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Speaker 1: the prosecutors on the father, that he had literally bought

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Speaker 1: the gun that his son used to kill four people,

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Speaker 1: and that he made no effort to prevent his son

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Speaker 1: from carrying out this dangerous crime. But for the mother

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Speaker 1: it was a little bit different. They presented a different

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Speaker 1: argument and different evidence for her. They provided evidence that

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Speaker 1: they said, suggested that she was negligent and detached as

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Speaker 1: a mother, and that, like I said before, she ignored

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Speaker 1: warning signs that prosecute you say, we're clearly there. And

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Speaker 1: in both cases, the prosecutors were successful in arguing that

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Speaker 1: the parents should be held legally liable for their actions

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Speaker 1: of their child, and that case has certainly set a

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Speaker 1: precedent for the country. It was a really historic decision

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Speaker 1: made by the jurors and it will be interesting to

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Speaker 1: see how it does set precedent for future cases.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this as you have said, that seem

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Speaker 2: to be quite a few similarities in the cases, and

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Speaker 2: it'll be interesting to see what the criminal process looks

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Speaker 2: like from here. Clearly there is this I don't know

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Speaker 2: if movement is the right word, but there is this

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Speaker 2: effort to try and broaden the understanding of how and

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Speaker 2: why these mass shootings are occurring at the rate they are,

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Speaker 2: and that partly the role of parents is being looked

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Speaker 2: at and examined and coming under question. Are their arguments

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Speaker 2: against this logic? What is the other side of the

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Speaker 2: coin when it comes to who should be held criminally responsible?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I looked into this and I read a few different

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Speaker 1: opinions from academics who explained why some could be against

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Speaker 1: this criminal justice approach, or not necessarily against it, but

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Speaker 1: maybe just cautious about maybe over relying on it. So

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Speaker 1: one opinion I read was just posing the question, you know,

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Speaker 1: where do you draw the line in holding one person

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Speaker 1: responsible for another person's actions.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's interesting because that would probably

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Speaker 2: fall down in this case when we're talking about a

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Speaker 2: fourteen year old. Yeah, I feel like that logic, can

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Speaker 2: I guess hold up when we're talking about an adult,

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Speaker 2: But a fourteen year old, I think it's different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I guess what this academic was saying that,

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Speaker 1: you know, if your child shop lists, for example, is

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Speaker 1: that something like now, because we have this president, is

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Speaker 1: that something that now you can hold the parents legally

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Speaker 1: responsible for a less severe crime. I guess it was

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Speaker 1: the argument there. Another article I read was by academic

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Speaker 1: Victoria Kane for Time magazine, and she was basically saying

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Speaker 1: that there isn't actually proof that going down this route

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Speaker 1: could actually reduce youth crime. So she said, quote, the

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Speaker 1: biggest problem with such laws is that they have never

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Speaker 1: been proven to prevent crime. Blaming individual parents for children's

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Speaker 1: crimes lets communities ignore more difficult and divisive tasks eliminating poverty,

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Speaker 1: curbing child abuse, providing mental health care, and limiting children's

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Speaker 1: access to guns. She also continued, quote, as Americans lean

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Speaker 1: on parental responsibility laws to prevent crime and exact retribution,

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Speaker 1: they should be careful that they aren't letting the broader

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Speaker 1: community off too easy.

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Speaker 2: So so interesting. It reminds me. In your twelve in

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Speaker 2: legal studies, we were learning about the purposes of punishment,

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Speaker 2: and you know, one of them is retribution, which is

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Speaker 2: that you pay for your crimes. That there is punishment,

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Speaker 2: but another is rehabilitation, and another is deterrent. So it's

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Speaker 2: like each of these leavers is being pulled. And what

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Speaker 2: is actually happening broadly across society when this sort of

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Speaker 2: precedents are being made.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's about, you know, do you pay for the

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Speaker 1: crime or do you try to address the source of

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Speaker 1: the crime, And both are super important. So that's those

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Speaker 1: who question it. But there are, of course many advocates

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Speaker 1: for this path, including President Joe Biden. He said last week,

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Speaker 1: you've got to hold parents accountable if they let their

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Speaker 1: child have access to these guns. So there are many

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Speaker 1: people who are for it. Obviously the prosecutors in the

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Speaker 1: cases that I have mentioned. President Joe Biden is for it,

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Speaker 1: but they did think it was worth mentioning those who

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Speaker 1: were questioning it.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, just on an ending note, to have

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Speaker 2: the president of one of the most powerful countries in

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Speaker 2: the world say it's about parents being accountable for letting

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Speaker 2: their children have access to those guns, when perhaps on

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Speaker 2: the other end, people are arguing that nobody should have

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Speaker 2: access to those guns opens up a different can of worms,

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Speaker 2: and one that the US will continue to debate, I

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Speaker 2: think till the end of time. Thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for listening to today's episode of The Daily os and.

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Speaker 1: Before we go, we are currently running a survey for

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Speaker 1: e is a link for that is in today's show notes.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening, and we will be

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Speaker 1: back again tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Dunda

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Speaker 3: Bungelung Kalgotin woman from Gadighol Country.

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Speaker 1: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 1: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

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