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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, so I would actually be looking for ways to

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Speaker 2: create an element of camping in an environment that feels

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Speaker 2: so much safer and so much more familiar.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Every week on the Happy Families Podcast, we answer your

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Speaker 2: questions and we have a question that I think is

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Speaker 2: going to be on the minds of a lot of

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Speaker 2: parents as school camps get closer. Hello, my name's doctor

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Speaker 2: Justin Colslan here with my wife Kylie under our six kids.

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Speaker 3: Kylie, let me read this one to you.

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Speaker 2: It's from somebody who wanted to stay anonymous to protect

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Speaker 2: I guess, their family and their little guy. The question

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Speaker 2: says this, Hi, I love the podcast, recent convert and

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Speaker 2: trying to listen to some of the backstories as well.

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Speaker 2: One question I have is about anxiety and young boys.

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Speaker 2: My ten year old is a sensitive little guy in

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Speaker 2: year five. He's always been afraid of alpha males and

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Speaker 2: around himself with girlfriends.

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Speaker 3: Now that they're in year.

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Speaker 2: Five at school, his first ever camp is coming up

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Speaker 2: in five months time. He's expressed to me that He's

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Speaker 2: scared about the prospect of sleeping in the dark in

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Speaker 2: a cabin with a bunch of boys, and he doesn't

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Speaker 2: want to be away from us. He also struggles when

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Speaker 2: we go away on holidays and sleeping in a new place,

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Speaker 2: so I think part of it might have something to

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Speaker 2: do with the unknown, and he's not good with new

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Speaker 2: things like food. For the record, he has had sleepovers

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Speaker 2: at my parents' house, but nowhere else, and he had

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Speaker 2: two little friends sleepover when he was in Grade one.

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Speaker 2: Tho were both girls and that went well at the

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Speaker 2: time when we have cuddles in bed after reading and

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Speaker 2: before going to sleep, he's been in tears about the

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Speaker 2: pending camp, so I think that they're talking about it

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Speaker 2: at school a little more in the last few weeks.

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Speaker 2: I've said to him that we can work on the

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Speaker 2: dark thing, at least by reducing the brightness of the

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Speaker 2: night light gradually and hopefully working towards no night light

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Speaker 2: and a closed bedroom door by camp time. I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure how I can help him with the separation anxiety,

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Speaker 2: except that I brought his old comforter so that he

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Speaker 2: can bring that along when the time comes, and I've

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Speaker 2: promised him that he can bring a pillow in his

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Speaker 2: favorite sleeping bag from home, where a very nuclear family,

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Speaker 2: two parents, two kids. His younger sister is eight and

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Speaker 2: pushes them around a lot. And my husband Li are

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Speaker 2: both very involved with the kids. And you can hear that,

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Speaker 2: can't you When you listen to this email. It's such

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Speaker 2: a I just love how much parents love their kids

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Speaker 2: and want them to do well. But Kylie, school camp,

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Speaker 2: leaving home, sleeping in the dark with a room full

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Speaker 2: of boys, quiet, sensitive kid, Kylie. There's a whole lot

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Speaker 2: of things that we can do to help any families

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Speaker 2: whose son or daughter might be heading away on a camp.

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Speaker 2: We've been through this with our kids, never really had

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Speaker 2: any major problems with it, right, Our kids were pretty

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Speaker 2: keen to get away, they were excited about the prospects,

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Speaker 2: and they didn't have the same kind of response.

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Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean that we can't be helpful. So

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Speaker 3: a handful of things stand out for both of us.

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Speaker 2: You took a great, big, deep breath, like you are

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Speaker 2: ready to dive straight in. What was the first thing

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Speaker 2: that was on your mind?

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Speaker 4: I just think ten is really young age. It's hard

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Speaker 4: enough to go and stay at grandma's as a ten

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Speaker 4: year old, or gone and staying at your best friend's place,

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Speaker 4: like these are places that are actually your children are

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Speaker 4: familiar with. But to actually go on a camp with

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Speaker 4: your entire class and often an entire grade, which means

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Speaker 4: multiple classes, say in a you know that all of

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Speaker 4: the things that he's worried about is completely normal that

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Speaker 4: as a young ten year old you would have all

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Speaker 4: of those concerns. Some kids like you obviously loved it.

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Speaker 4: Any chance to get away.

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Speaker 2: And you know, yeah, I'm not the quite retiring type

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Speaker 2: like this little boy seems to be.

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Speaker 4: And I also the one thing I will say is

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Speaker 4: at ten years of age, if you don't feel your

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Speaker 4: child is actually ready for that schoolcap's not compulsory.

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Speaker 2: No it's not, but a lot of memories are made.

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Speaker 2: And I also want to emphasize that avoidance reinforces anxiety,

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Speaker 2: and this is an opportunity for a child to I guess,

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Speaker 2: step up. Let's go through a couple of things very briefly.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about in my book The Parenting,

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Speaker 2: I talk about three basic psychological needs that kids have.

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Speaker 2: They need to feel a sense of closeness and bonding

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Speaker 2: with those around them. They need to fill a level

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Speaker 2: of competence and capability, and they need to have a

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Speaker 2: sense of control.

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Speaker 3: So what's going on.

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Speaker 2: With a situation like this is we've got a little

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Speaker 2: boy who doesn't have great friendships with the boys that

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Speaker 2: he's going to end up stuck in a room with

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Speaker 2: and spending a whole lot of time with, so that

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Speaker 2: need is not being met. It makes sense therefore that

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Speaker 2: he would be nervous about it. Secondly, though, because of

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Speaker 2: the sense of I'm going to say a low level

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Speaker 2: of competence. That is, he doesn't feel safe and capable

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Speaker 2: of sleeping in a dark room without his parents and separating.

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Speaker 2: That competence need is not being met, so it feels

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Speaker 2: low and he feels like it's being forced to go.

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Speaker 2: So this is a perfect storm, a perfect recipe for

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Speaker 2: some negative and challenging experiences if we can't set things up.

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Speaker 2: The great thing is we've got a mum who send

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Speaker 2: us a note five months early.

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Speaker 4: And that's the great thing. There's time that so much

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Speaker 4: can change in five months. So when I think about

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Speaker 4: this situation, the first thing that stands out to me

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Speaker 4: is who are the boys that he would most likely

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Speaker 4: be able to build friendships with? Where is the commonality.

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Speaker 4: How can we join a handful of boys together to

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Speaker 4: help create a safety net for him?

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Speaker 2: And this is one of the great challenges with school camp.

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Speaker 2: And anyone who's a school teacher and who has tried

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Speaker 2: to organize who's going to be in which cabin knows

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Speaker 2: exactly what we're talking about. I know that no parent

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Speaker 2: wants to be that parent that gets in the face

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Speaker 2: of the teachers and says, but my child has these

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Speaker 2: needs and you need to do this, this and this

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Speaker 2: whole my child can't go to camp.

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Speaker 3: But I absolutely think that I don't.

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Speaker 4: Think you need to do that. Though with five months

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Speaker 4: I would my personal take on it, I would be

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Speaker 4: going to the teacher and just saying, look, my son's

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Speaker 4: really struggling with his friendships with his male peers. As

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Speaker 4: a teacher, when you look at the classroom, is there

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Speaker 4: any child you know or children that you feel, with

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Speaker 4: a little bit of a nudge, my son could make

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Speaker 4: friends with.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's all I was going to say.

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Speaker 2: We're not getting overly involved, but we are highlighting this

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Speaker 2: is something we're a little bit nervous about. What are

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Speaker 2: you seeing Who can we build relationships with outside of

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Speaker 2: the school.

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Speaker 3: I see it.

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Speaker 4: Once you've got those names, then you actually create opportunities

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Speaker 4: for some play dates one hundred percent meet the family,

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Speaker 4: spend time with them, and over five months, if you

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Speaker 4: can do enough of that, you actually have a chance

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Speaker 4: that he's going to be excited because he's got you know,

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Speaker 4: he can hang out with Johnny.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So we've got the relationship building thing happening there. Something

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Speaker 2: else that might be fun, depending on what your rulers

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Speaker 2: around sleepovers, is maybe now's the time to organize for

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Speaker 2: a sleepover or a camp in the backyard. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I know that our kids have loved it when we've

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Speaker 2: stuck a tent in the backyard on the grass and

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Speaker 2: they've been able to have one or two friends over

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Speaker 2: and they've all slept in the tent overnight and it's

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Speaker 2: been such an adventure for them. They're really close to

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Speaker 2: the house, they've got access to bathroom facilities, they've got torches,

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Speaker 2: there's light, but they're doing.

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Speaker 3: It on their own.

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Speaker 2: They're sleeping outside and having that adventure. So I would

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Speaker 2: actually be looking for ways to create an element of

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Speaker 2: camping in an environment that feels so much safer and

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Speaker 2: so much more familiar. He's going to start to get

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Speaker 2: a sense of how it feels to sleep outside the

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Speaker 2: house or sleep in an enclosed space with some other

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Speaker 2: people who is developing relationships with.

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Speaker 4: Another thing that we've done in the past is during

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Speaker 4: the holidays, I've actually hosted like a kid's hangout day. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and we've just done activities. Not because it's a birthday party,

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Speaker 4: but just it gives them an opportunity to socialize outside

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Speaker 4: of the school and have something in common.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels really good when the kids get to

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Speaker 2: have that creating memories. Totally, Totally so building relationships, Kylie.

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Speaker 2: When I consider some of the other challenges that are

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Speaker 2: associated with this situation, We've got a little boy who's

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Speaker 2: just kind of nervous, and I want to go back

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Speaker 2: to this idea that avoidance reinforces anxiety. My general take

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Speaker 2: on these situations is, no matter how uncomfortable it is

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Speaker 2: for your child to go away on the camp, my

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Speaker 2: sense is that more often than not, in the vast

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Speaker 2: majority of cases, the experiences that kids have on the

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Speaker 2: camp will build their sense of competence, their self efficacy,

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Speaker 2: their belief in themselves. So they might be saying, but

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Speaker 2: I can't do it. I'm too scared. This is too

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Speaker 2: much for me. Then they go and they actually do

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Speaker 2: the camp, they have the time away from the family,

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Speaker 2: they do the separation bit, and they come back feeling

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Speaker 2: like they've grown half a meter in height. They come

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Speaker 2: back feeling six feet tall because they've.

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Speaker 3: Done something hard. They've developed that competence.

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Speaker 2: And I really think that if we step into an

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Speaker 2: avoidance mentality, we reinforce all of the fears and anxieties

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Speaker 2: that they have, Whereas if we step forward and say,

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Speaker 2: when you do hard things, how does it feel, what

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Speaker 2: we actually do is boost their resilience and we boost

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Speaker 2: their sense of competence. So as hard as it is

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Speaker 2: for parents to let go and to I guess have

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Speaker 2: that slightly firm a line in almost all cases, I

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Speaker 2: would say it's worth pushing it.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: There are some cases where you've got a childho's dealing

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Speaker 2: with some clinical psychological challenges where you may choose otherwise,

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Speaker 2: and talking with the school, talking with your mental health

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Speaker 2: professionals who know your individual circumstances, that's going to be

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Speaker 2: the best place to go to get guidance around that.

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Speaker 2: But as a general rule, I'd be saying push through this.

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Speaker 3: It's worth it.

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Speaker 2: Allay your own fears and anxieties and get comfortable with

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Speaker 2: the idea that from time to time your children are

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Speaker 2: going to be uncomfortable. As horrible as that is for

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Speaker 2: us as parents, we just don't want our kids to

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Speaker 2: feel those things. They're a necessary part of being human,

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Speaker 2: and our children will do better in life if they

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Speaker 2: develop the skills to regulate those emotions and push through

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Speaker 2: those challenging things. So there are a couple of other

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Speaker 2: points that are worth making when we consider kids going

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Speaker 2: away to camp. The first one is that this is

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Speaker 2: five months away. The build up can be anxiety producing.

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Speaker 2: So I would say, don't make too big of a

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Speaker 2: deal about it. Give your kid a hug, let him

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Speaker 2: know that you know, ask if there's anything you can do,

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Speaker 2: and then let it be. I wouldn't be making this

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Speaker 2: a topic of conversation every single day for the next

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Speaker 2: five months.

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Speaker 3: Or we can build it into something that is really,

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Speaker 3: really big.

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Speaker 2: The last thing I guess that we've got to talk

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Speaker 2: about here. We've dealt with being away from you, the separation, anxiety,

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Speaker 2: and the building relationships, but there's also the sleeping in

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Speaker 2: the dark idea, and when it comes to this particular challenge,

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Speaker 2: you might find that there is an option to plug

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Speaker 2: a tiny little night light in the cabins that the

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Speaker 2: kids are going to be sleeping in, or you might

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Speaker 2: find that this process of slowly but surely reducing the

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Speaker 2: amount of light in the environment at home is a

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Speaker 2: really nice way to move things towards what's going to

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Speaker 2: happen at the camp. The other option is just that

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Speaker 2: he goes on the camp and this is what happens,

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Speaker 2: and surprisingly a lot of kids adapt to this sort

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Speaker 2: of thing really really well. Again, I don't think this

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Speaker 2: is the sort of thing that we need to make

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Speaker 2: a big deal about. More preparation, more focus can actually

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Speaker 2: exacerbate it, blow it up, magnify it, rather than just

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Speaker 2: making it something that people do. You're looking at me funny,

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Speaker 2: like you don't like my perspective on this.

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Speaker 4: I just still stand by the fact that ten's really young, and.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah it is. It is, especially in the world

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Speaker 3: that we live in today.

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Speaker 4: There's going to be plenty of years where school camp

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Speaker 4: is going to play a significant part in kids' lives.

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Speaker 4: And if at ten I didn't feel like my kid

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Speaker 4: was ready, I just I actually wouldn't send them. And

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Speaker 4: I know you're saying that avoidance creates more, but I

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Speaker 4: actually think that with another year or two, their sense

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Speaker 4: of competence and their connections with their friends increases and

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Speaker 4: the anxiety diminishes as a result.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to agree with you and disagree with you.

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Speaker 2: In cases where the challenge is significant, then you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: But what happens next year is we've reinforced how good

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Speaker 2: it felt to stay home and not have to go.

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Speaker 4: But I don't think it does. I actually think in

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Speaker 4: most cases, children who miss out on those opportunities feel

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Speaker 4: like they've missed out because the kids all come back

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Speaker 4: and they talk about the experiences and that child that

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Speaker 4: didn't go, they're not actually part of it. And I

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Speaker 4: think that often the I'm going to use the word

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Speaker 4: consequence of not attending is that you recognize that you

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Speaker 4: actually missed out on something that was really good. And

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Speaker 4: so for me, we've got this really tender young child.

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Speaker 4: Whether it's a boy or girl, it doesn't matter. And

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Speaker 4: I just feel like having been in situations as a

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Speaker 4: young child myself where I wasn't ready for them and

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Speaker 4: I didn't feel like I had connections the experiences I

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Speaker 4: had were actually more traumatic because I was picked on,

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Speaker 4: I was bullied, teachers didn't see things, I didn't say anything,

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Speaker 4: And for a little kid in this situation, there is

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Speaker 4: the real challenge of dealing with that. So they've already

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Speaker 4: gone into it anxious that things aren't going to work

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Speaker 4: out well, and then they're ostracized because they're the little

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Speaker 4: kids sitting in the cabin with a torch on, or

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Speaker 4: you know, they hide out because they too scared, or

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Speaker 4: in some cases they're the kid crying in the corner.

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Speaker 2: And so this perspective that you're sharing is precisely why

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Speaker 2: this mum is saying I'm really stuck. In fact, there

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Speaker 2: was a PostScript to her email that I didn't read,

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Speaker 2: where she basically said, I'm really conflicted. My husband thinks

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Speaker 2: I'm being too soft on him, and so I'm not.

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Speaker 3: Quite sure of the right way to go.

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Speaker 2: And this is the challenge, isn't it, Because in one way,

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Speaker 2: staying away can reinforce the anxiety, it can reinforce this

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Speaker 2: sense that I need to be coddled, and it can

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Speaker 2: reinforce the child. All I have to do is cry

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Speaker 2: and say I don't want to and my parents will

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Speaker 2: relieve me of all the fear. And there's also the

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Speaker 2: chance that the child will just develop through it and

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Speaker 2: grow up and have the fear of missing out and

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Speaker 2: really wish that they could go next year. So it

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Speaker 2: is really complicated. The reality is, I think it really

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Speaker 2: depends on the individual circumstances.

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Speaker 4: I do too. I do too, and that's why I

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Speaker 4: can't stand behind the blanket rule. We've just got to

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Speaker 4: push through it because each child is going to be different.

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Speaker 4: In some cases, you're exactly right, sending them off is

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Speaker 4: going to be the best thing you could possibly do,

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Speaker 4: and they are going to come back and feel like

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Speaker 4: they've conquered Mount Everest. But the odd case they're not.

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Speaker 4: And so being a tune enough to recognize whether or

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Speaker 4: not this is a necessary step in helping your child

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Speaker 4: build that sense of confidence, whether this is actually going

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Speaker 4: to be detrimental, that's the challenge, and that's where she's

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Speaker 4: out right.

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Speaker 2: I keep on going back to Huckleberry Finn. So you've

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Speaker 2: got these young kids who are exploring the world. They're

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Speaker 2: going up and down the river, they've got their own

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Speaker 2: little island, They're doing all these crazy things, making rafts,

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Speaker 2: and I think about what childhood was in the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighties, nineteen sixties, those kinds of romanticized notions of

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Speaker 2: children with freedom, playing outside and having all of that experience.

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Speaker 2: But the world today is not that, and while some

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Speaker 2: children respond really well to it, this idea that ten

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Speaker 2: year olds should be out and about lie leaving home

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Speaker 2: and leaving the safety net that we I mean, homes

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Speaker 2: and families are different today than they were twenty thirty,

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Speaker 2: forty years ago. And I'm really sympathetic to your view

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Speaker 2: that the expectation that a ten year old would leave

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Speaker 2: home and go away for a few nights and have

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Speaker 2: this encounter. I get that it's challenging.

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Speaker 4: So in most cases those younger camps, they are only

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Speaker 4: going away for a night. And if that's the case,

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Speaker 4: then you know, maybe it is a possibility to kind

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Speaker 4: of push it.

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Speaker 2: So the duration matters as well, in the distance from

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Speaker 2: home and all those kinds of things. I mean, you

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Speaker 2: could even, depending on how close it is to home,

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Speaker 2: and depending on how far you want to take this,

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Speaker 2: you could even show up at the camp and have

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Speaker 2: looked around so that the child feels familiar. But ultimately this

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Speaker 2: comes down to relationships. It comes down to trust and

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Speaker 2: a feeling of safety. And I think that those ideas

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Speaker 2: that we shared at the start of the podcast are

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Speaker 2: absolutely critically important.

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Speaker 4: I actually just remembered we had a child who was

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Speaker 4: struggling and didn't know if they wanted to go to camp.

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Speaker 4: We spoke with the teacher and just asked whether or

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Speaker 4: not she could make a phone call at nighttime to

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Speaker 4: say good night to us. And that was the difference

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Speaker 4: between our child feeling like they were able to leave

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Speaker 4: with the confidence that they would at least be able

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Speaker 4: to say good night to us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I can imagine some teachers would have said, oh,

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Speaker 2: come on, forget it. This fairyss cotton walling sort of

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Speaker 2: stuff is ridiculous, But that was what it took to

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Speaker 2: get our child over the line, and she went and

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Speaker 2: she had a perfectly good time.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 2: I guess the other thing to emphasize, I feel like

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Speaker 2: I'm turning the corner here, I'm coming full circle. But

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Speaker 2: you can grow up to be a completely capable, competent,

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Speaker 2: and fully functioning adult without without having been on school camp.

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Speaker 2: So it's not the end of the world. I hope,

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Speaker 2: I hope that the ideas that we've shared in this

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Speaker 2: episode have been useful for our anonymous listener. I love

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Speaker 2: our listeners' emails. I love the questions that we get

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Speaker 2: to grapple with and the messiness and now untired in

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Speaker 2: this and the fact that there isn't always a clear solution,

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Speaker 2: there's not always a way forward. But when we stay

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Speaker 2: focused on the goal of meeting our kids' psychological needs,

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Speaker 2: we tend to do a better job. The Happy Families

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Speaker 2: podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from Bridge Media. Craig

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Speaker 2: Bruce is our executive producer. For more about making your

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Speaker 2: family happy, please visit us at happy families dot com,

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Speaker 2: dot a U and grab a copy of The Parenting

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Speaker 2: Revolution