1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: When you sit down at your desk in the morning, 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: what's the first task that you usually find yourself seduced by? 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: For most people, you sit down and can very quickly 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: find yourself answering emails, and before you know it, the 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: day has taken off. But is that really the best 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: way to enter your day? What if instead you were 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: to spend a few minutes pondering what you were going 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: to release, what you were grateful. 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: For, and what you were going to focus on. 10 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: This just so happens to be the morning ritual of 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: Michael bungay Steiner. He's the author of The Coaching Habit, 12 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: which has sold over one million copies worldwide, and spent 13 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: twenty years as the CEO of Coaching, an innovation consultancy, 14 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: Box of Crayons, and he's also the host of the 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: two Pages podcast. He is a huge advocate for doing 16 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: work that's not just good but great, which he covers 17 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: in his new book How to Begin, which you can 18 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: currently pre order ahead of its release in January twenty 19 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: twenty too. So how does Michael make sure that a 20 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: new project is worthy of saying yes to? Why does 21 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,559 Speaker 1: Michael set goals in six week chapters? And why should 22 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: you be creating an operating manual to use with new 23 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: colleagues or clients. My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm 24 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 25 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: And this is how I work, a show about how. 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: To help you do your best work. 27 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: Hey, Michael, So you've done so many podcast episodes over 28 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: the years. How do you use those few minutes before 29 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: you hit record, Like when you're trying to build rapport 30 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: really quickly with a guest. 31 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 3: You know, I scream at them and I say, if 32 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 3: you don't perform at a really high level in this podcast, 33 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 3: you're dead to me. That's what I do exactly. I'm like, 34 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 3: I'm terrified about how this podcast is going to go. 35 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: You know, I'm going to cut things I try and do. 36 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 3: And it's varied over the years, but for the podcast 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 3: that I have at the moment, I am trying to 38 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: disrupt the usual conversation that people have, particularly authors, because 39 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 3: if the author is on a bit of a podcast 40 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 3: tour because they're talking about a boat, they're kind of 41 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 3: locked and loaded into a couple of stories and a 42 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 3: couple of key messages. Yes, And I'm always interested in 43 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 3: trying to get something else from there. So my podcast 44 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 3: is called two Pages with MBS, and it's where brilliant 45 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 3: people read the best two pages from a favorite book. 46 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 3: And I know my first ten minutes of that podcast 47 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 3: is to try and get my audience to feel a 48 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 3: connection to that person, and then the rest of the 49 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 3: podcast is them reading the book and then us talking 50 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 3: about the ideas and that. So in that before we 51 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: hit record, I'm like, first of all, permission to permission 52 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 3: to muck up because it is a produced podcast, so 53 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 3: my producer can take out gaps and pauses and stumbles 54 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 3: and the like. And then I say, look, here's roughly 55 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 3: how the structure of the calls going to go, so 56 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 3: you'll you'll know roughly the kind of the milestones. You know, 57 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 3: ten to fifteen minutes, we moved from your story to 58 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 3: asking about the book. And then I go, look, I'm 59 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 3: really interested in the slightly unexpected. So if you see 60 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 3: a story, tell me the story. If there's a left 61 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 3: hand turn you can take in the conversation, take the 62 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 3: left hand turn, because I love trying to keep up 63 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 3: with you and engaging with you in the moment, because 64 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 3: for me, I'm trying to invite people in my podcast 65 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 3: who the type of people who if you sat next 66 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 3: to them at a dinner party, you'd be stoked. Sometimes 67 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 3: you sit next to people and a dinner party or 68 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 3: at a conference or something, and you're like, you know what, 69 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 3: it was a perfectly pleasant conversation, but I'm not feeling 70 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 3: totally nourished by it. And sometimes you get lucky and 71 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 3: you sit next to somebody and you're like, oh my god, 72 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 3: you are so interesting. I'm trying to get people to 73 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 3: be that person on my podcast. 74 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: That's so cool. 75 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: Now, if we were to start working together on a 76 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: new project, I know that there's something really important that 77 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: you would have me do and that you would do too. 78 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 2: Can you tell me what that is? 79 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? I call it building our operating Manual. So the 80 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 3: origin of this comes from a guy called Peter Block, 81 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 3: who if you're in the world of kind of organizational 82 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 3: change and stuff like that, you may have heard his name. 83 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 3: And he talks about something called a social contract, and 84 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 3: the bottom line is it's good to talk about how 85 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 3: we're going to work together before we talk about what 86 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 3: we're going to work on together. So this is a 87 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 3: conversation that's helpful if you're you know, you have somebody 88 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 3: new coming on your team, or you start working with 89 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 3: a vendor or a contractor or anybody. Really you got 90 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 3: a relationship where you like, we want this to be 91 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 3: really good. The temptation is always to go, let's talk 92 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 3: about the project, what needs to be built, what are 93 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 3: we starting, what are our KPIs, and what are our 94 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 3: es or whatever, And that pressure to an excitement to 95 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 3: get stuff done often kind of sweeps you into that 96 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 3: type of conversation. And you're in the honeymoon of this 97 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 3: relationship with this new person, just like you're awesome, and 98 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: I'm awesome, and where awesome? This project awesome? What could 99 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: possibly go wrong? And the thing is something will go 100 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 3: wrong every because it always goes wrong. It always goes 101 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 3: off the rails a little bit. So I'm really enamored 102 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 3: and try and have the discipline to have a conversation 103 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 3: about let's let's talk about our operating manual. And I've 104 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: just got a few questions or and I don't ask 105 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 3: all of them all the time, but a few questions 106 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 3: that I feel like help us having a conversation to go, 107 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 3: let me tell you how to get the best out 108 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 3: of me, and I want you to tell me how 109 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 3: to get the best out of you. So I'll say 110 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 3: things like, you know, Samantha, when you've worked with somebody 111 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 3: like me before and in a project like this and 112 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 3: it's gone really well, tell me what happened? What did 113 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: you do? And what did the other person do? And 114 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 3: then I'll answer the question myself. You know, when I 115 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 3: worked on somebody like you and Mantha on a project 116 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 3: like this and it went really well, here's some of 117 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 3: the stuff that happened, and I'll go and when you've 118 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 3: worked with somebody like me on a project that's kind 119 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 3: of been a bit of a disaster or just kind 120 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 3: of mediocre, what happened? You know, what did you do 121 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 3: and what did they do? And we're building up understanding 122 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 3: about one of the contexts in which we flourish and 123 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 3: one of the contexts in which we struggle. You know, 124 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 3: a great one is, and this is a question directly 125 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 3: from Peter Block, how do you feel about the amount 126 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 3: of power you have in this relationship? That's a that's 127 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 3: a really hard question to ask. It it's it always 128 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 3: takes people are back, but it's it's it's really good 129 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 3: at kind of going how who has control here? And 130 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 3: how do you feel about that? 131 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: I love that. 132 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 3: I'll give you one one more question and then we 133 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 3: can we can ask me about it if you want another. 134 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 3: One is when things go badly wrong or go off 135 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 3: the rails a little bit, because they always do, what's 136 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: your unilateral act? How do you respond? And you know 137 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 3: I can always tell people, Look, I'm not that great 138 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 3: a conflict, So you'll move into you'll just stop hearing 139 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 3: from me, and this is both and this is the 140 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 3: way to pull me out of that. So we actually 141 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 3: have a conversation about this is what I look like 142 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 3: when I'm behaving badly or under stress, and here's how 143 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 3: you can manage me best to get me out of 144 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 3: that doom loop. And I'll get them to tell me 145 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 3: the same. 146 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. 147 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: So at Inventium we have a very similar strategy. Whenever 148 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: we have a new starter on the team, we get 149 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: them completing We call it the OP on the one 150 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: page operating manual and screen. 151 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 152 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: For us, the way we think about it, it's like 153 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: software hardware. All that stuff comes with a manual about 154 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: how to use it. But I mean humans are far 155 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: more complex, but we don't come with manual, and so 156 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: we try to create one. So I'm really interested in 157 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: those questions that you ask. Something else that we ask 158 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: is what are your pief points? Like what are the 159 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: things that just really frustrate you? And we find we 160 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: get some interesting answers. What do you do though, if, like, 161 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: if you're working with someone and maybe there like their 162 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: insight into themselves and particularly you know, their shadow side 163 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: their weaknesses is. 164 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:27,119 Speaker 2: Not that good? 165 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: How do you draw those responses out more effectively? 166 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I try and do it in the 167 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 3: moment because for me it is the process of having 168 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 3: gone through this allows us to come back and have 169 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 3: this conversation again. So more important to me than the 170 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: answers is the fact that I've said this, by the way, 171 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 3: we have these type of conversations when we work together. 172 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: So would you then have those conversations at regular intervals, 173 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: like where you're not talking about the project and the 174 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: work per se, but you're talking about the relationship and 175 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: all the time relational things really all. 176 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 3: The time, like I would say with you know, on 177 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 3: my immediate team, so I have I kind of am 178 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 3: part of two companies at the moment. I own a 179 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 3: training company, that's run by a CEO, and I talked 180 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 3: to her monthly but formerly on her performance quarterly. And 181 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 3: then I have a little small kind of startup company 182 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 3: where I have one employee, and with Ainsley every six 183 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 3: weeks we'll have a conversation around has this going? And 184 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 3: it's not about the work, It's about how is it 185 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 3: going for you as a human being? How has it 186 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 3: going for me as the person who's your your nominal boss? 187 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 3: What do we need to do differently to do that? 188 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 3: One of the questions that both with Shannon who's the 189 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 3: CEO of Boxer Crayons, and Ainsley, who is kind of 190 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 3: she works at MBS dot works. One of the questions 191 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 3: that is most powerful in this is what needs to 192 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 3: be said that hasn't yet been said, because that just 193 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 3: creates space for us to go, ah, you know that 194 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 3: thing that's hard to talk about, or I've been looking 195 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: for the moment to sneak it into the conversation and 196 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 3: I haven't quite figured out how to say it because 197 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 3: it's a bit confronting to me or a bit confronting 198 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 3: to you or whatever. What needs to be said that 199 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 3: hasn't yet been said is just a permission to lay 200 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 3: down the as yet unspoken, and that is a great 201 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: cleanser and builder of resilience into the relationships. 202 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm gonna take that. 203 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: One that I stole it from somebody else. I can't 204 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 3: remember who, so steal away because it is it is 205 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 3: a beauty. On another note, a man, I end my 206 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 3: podcast at the moment that's the final question. I always 207 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 3: ask people, and it's it's great. Sometimes people go, I 208 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 3: got nothing. Some people times people go, that was a 209 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 3: good conversation, thank you, And some people go, here's the 210 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 3: thing I really wanted to tell you. I'm like, brilliant 211 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 3: and we'll have a bit of a chat. 212 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: That's cool. 213 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: Now, I know that you think a lot about what 214 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: to say yes to and what to say no to. 215 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: I mean, why is that such an important thing that 216 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: we should really think more deeply about. 217 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I haven't listened to absolutely every episode of 218 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: everything you've ever on this show, Amantha Michael. 219 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 2: I'm very disappointed to hear that. 220 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 3: I've had to say no to that. So I can 221 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 3: say yes to having a life. But I can't be 222 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 3: the first person who have mentioned this as just a 223 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 3: foundational thing to get clear on. And I believe that 224 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 3: at a certain point in your life you just get 225 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 3: more opportunities than you can actually cope with. And there's 226 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 3: a wiring that I've certainly carried on or taken with me, 227 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 3: and other people might have taken it too, which is 228 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: like when you start your career, you kind of say 229 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 3: yes to a lot of things because you're just trying 230 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 3: to build up experience and stories and to taste things. 231 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 3: It's like, do I like the taste of this? Can 232 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 3: I do it? You're trying to find that sort of 233 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 3: sense of this is who I am in the context 234 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 3: of work. Because I don't know about you, Manthon, but 235 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 3: the first two or three years I spent working, I 236 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 3: was just learning how to work. I was just learning 237 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 3: who am I in the work context because it was 238 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 3: different from being a university student or whatever. At a 239 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 3: certain point you can actually do, you know, technically, you 240 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 3: can do more than you actually have time for. So 241 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 3: now it's about going, well, what are the choices that 242 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 3: I can make that are thrilling to me and important 243 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 3: and that they serve a bigger goal. And in organizations, 244 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 3: there is a hunger for people to be more strategic, 245 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 3: you know, they're like, ah, we said we need we 246 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 3: really want people to be more strategic and everyone's like, yeah, 247 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 3: I need to be more strategic, and everyone's like, yall, 248 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 3: what does that mean? Because it's one of those anodyne 249 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 3: words that gets bounced around and can mean you know 250 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 3: everything and nothing. I think that one way to think 251 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 3: about what does it mean to be strategic and therefore 252 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 3: valued and therefore influential and an important person in a setting, 253 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: in a context is to have the courage to say 254 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 3: no to things? Who can say yes to what matters? 255 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 3: And it's scary, and it's confusing, and it's fear of 256 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 3: missing out, and it's what if I take the wrong choice, 257 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 3: and the guilt and the anxiety that comes with making 258 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 3: a choice. But it is also an adult act, and 259 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 3: it is a choice to say, look, I'm committing to 260 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 3: something that feels right. You can't control the outcome, but 261 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 3: a full commitment of the process gives you a better 262 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 3: chance of something amazing happening. 263 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 2: So what is your process for what you do say 264 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: yes to? 265 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 3: Well, it kind of happens on a range of different levels. 266 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:57,599 Speaker 3: So I have regular invitations to do things beyond podcasts 267 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 3: or contribute to a project one way or another, and 268 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 3: for those short term, kind of shorter, kind of one 269 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 3: off experiences. I have a number of different things. I 270 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 3: kind of test one as I just do a kind 271 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 3: of gut is it a hell yes or is it 272 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 3: a no? So people will probably know that from Derek Sivers, 273 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 3: and I think he's actually got a book out called 274 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 3: Hell Yes or No. Now it's just one really helpful 275 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 3: way of going, look, just work with my gut instinctive 276 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: says it hell yes or no. Second, I'll actually do 277 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 3: a little test for criteria, so, you know, to take 278 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,479 Speaker 3: an example that we're living at the moment. For podcast invitations, 279 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 3: I've got somebody in my team to do a tiny 280 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 3: bit of research around you know, what's the podcast about? 281 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 3: How many people listen to it? Do I know them? 282 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 3: And there's a kind of mix of a criteria I 283 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 3: might say yes or no to there. And then there's 284 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 3: the third point is me. It's a bit more existential, Amantha. 285 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 3: It's just me going why am I filling up my space? 286 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 3: And one am my you know, kind of one of 287 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: my running from and why am I so uncomfortable with 288 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 3: space and silence and you know, non busyness, and so 289 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 3: part of it is just to kind of check into 290 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 3: what the bigger the bigger things are that I do. 291 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 3: So I've got that as a kind of immediate response 292 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 3: to a request. Then there's a bigger context, which is 293 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 3: what's the big project that I'm working on at the moment. 294 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 3: So again, you know, Manthri, I stand on so many 295 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 3: people's shoulders to talk about this stuff. But a writer 296 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 3: called Kevin Kelly gave me the idea many years ago 297 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 3: of figuring out your death date. So basically, with with 298 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 3: statistical tables from actuaries, you can kind of figure out 299 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 3: statistically when you're likely to die. And I know my 300 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 3: death date. It's September fifteenth, twenty forty three, and Kevin 301 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 3: Kelly and you can look this up at kk dot 302 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 3: org if you're you're interested in finding this article. You guys, look, 303 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 3: you basicly got five big projects, one big project every 304 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 3: five years. So twenty twenty one, twenty forty three, I 305 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 3: basically got five and a half four and a bit 306 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 3: project left in me, which is quite sobering. It's like 307 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 3: to write a book and get it out into the 308 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 3: world and really kind of have that be a thing. 309 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: Is about a five year project. Maybe that's a bit long, 310 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 3: but it's about right. It's a good useful rule of thumb. 311 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 3: So for me, there's also the bigger picture around, so 312 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 3: what's my worthy goal right now? That's the language I 313 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 3: use around how do I set that big project that 314 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 3: I want to commit to that feels like the best 315 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 3: expression of something that lights me up, something that serves 316 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 3: the world, something that stretches and grows me. And then 317 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 3: against that It's not as complicated as it sounds. I 318 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 3: work in these kind of six months six week cycles around. 319 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 3: I do a burst of work and then I stop 320 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: and I pause and I kind of re evaluate where 321 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 3: I am and re orient and decide what the next 322 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 3: six weeks are going to be. And that structure also 323 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 3: helps me figure out what I'm saying yes to and 324 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 3: what I'm saying though to. 325 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 2: Hmmm, wow, okay, there's so much that I want to 326 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 2: dig into. 327 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 3: There, so much there. 328 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: So it's like because I'm I'm sort of an interesting 329 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: point at the moment, and I know that your new 330 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: book how to Begin really takes the reader through this, 331 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: But I've my big project at the moment, which I 332 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: guess a book is probably about a three year project. 333 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: I find and I find this when I talk to 334 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: writers of business books, there's kind of there's the the 335 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: year of research and prep, there's a year of writing 336 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: and editing, and then there's a year of promoting it, 337 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: and you know, and obviously like you still just ter. 338 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 3: There's a six month period of self loathing in there 339 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 3: as well, but that's often overlapping the other. 340 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: Parts, possibly longer than six months. 341 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 3: But it's three years. It's three years of self loathing. 342 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 3: That's okay, that's right. 343 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: And so I'm at the part of the process where 344 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: literally a week ago today, I submitted the final draft 345 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: of the manuscript to my editor and so now. 346 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. 347 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: And it's weird because we're in lockdown in Melbourne, I think, 348 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: where we've just passed two hundred and fifty days or 349 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: something crazy. 350 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 3: Like world record. 351 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 2: I hear, I know, I. 352 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: Know, something to not be proud of. And I and 353 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: someone said, hey, are you going to celebrate? I'm like, 354 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: that hasn't even crossed my mind. But in the next 355 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: few months they'll be editing and stuff. But I feel 356 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: like the bulk of the work is done. 357 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: If you like it. 358 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: Now, I'm like, okay, I've got quite a lot of 359 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: free time because it took a long time to write 360 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: seventy thousand words, and I'm kind of hunting around for 361 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: what will that next creative project be that I'll sink 362 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: my teeth into. 363 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 2: So how should I go about working that out? 364 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 3: Michael, You know, the first thing I would say is 365 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 3: just to allow yourself some time not to figure that out. 366 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 3: I wish I could follow this advice as easily as 367 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 3: I give it, because I'm not that great at doing it. 368 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 3: But if this feels like it's done, and honestly, having 369 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 3: having written a few books myself, even having got that 370 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 3: final draft into your editor, there's still quite an immersive 371 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 3: amount of work to be done if you want to 372 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 3: make it. A part of your focus around well how 373 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 3: does this book end up looking and going through the 374 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 3: type setting and then getting it out into the world 375 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 3: and then committing to marketing it and stuff. 376 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: So absolutely yes, and I acknowledge that definitely yes. 377 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 3: But I think for particularly for people who are smart, ambitious, 378 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 3: and have a track record of success, so in otherwise 379 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,479 Speaker 3: you that there can be a little bit of pressure 380 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 3: to go or let's say it, I've had twelve hours 381 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 3: off since I submitted my book, I should I should 382 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 3: have my next project underway, and what's wrong with me? 383 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 3: I don't want to be slacking. I don't want I'm 384 00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 3: trying to be a role model to my team here 385 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 3: and a role model to myself. And I'm like, you 386 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 3: know what it is worth being fallow for a little 387 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 3: bit to kind of go what matters to me now 388 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 3: and to kind of open yourself up to the to 389 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 3: the world to go, how can you bump into stuff 390 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 3: that might spark you and have you think about new 391 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 3: possible projects. Because the process of kind of figuring out 392 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 3: a project, I can talk about it and I will 393 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 3: talk about it in just a second, but there is 394 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:35,959 Speaker 3: an experience that it's like the recency effect, which is 395 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 3: we we're so influenced by what we've just recently done 396 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 3: that sometimes it can be hard to shake off what 397 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 3: the next project might be. That's not just kind of 398 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 3: like it's just it's almost it's kind of the same 399 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 3: as the last big project that you finished, because you're 400 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 3: still walking the value of writing a book and writing 401 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 3: a book about you know that particular topic. I read 402 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 3: an article in The Guard on the weekend by Tim Minchin. 403 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 3: It's an interesting article about ambition about how he made 404 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 3: his name as a comedian and then stop being a comedian, 405 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 3: and people may not have fully noticed it, but he's like, 406 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 3: I didn't want to get sucked into that label. And 407 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 3: he's he talks about his ambition now to be unpigeonhole able, 408 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 3: if that's even a word, and I personally admire that 409 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 3: because it's like he's been a willingness to kind of 410 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 3: slow down and go let me stay open to what 411 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 3: shows up, and let me stay open to what other 412 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 3: projects he might not just move towards success, but actually 413 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 3: be something that stretches and grows you in an unexpected way. 414 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: We'll be back with Michael in a moment, hearing about 415 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: why he recommends setting goals in six week chapters and 416 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: how he gets himself back on track when he's not 417 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: feeling his best. And if you're keen to consume more 418 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: of the stuff that I'm putting out into the world, 419 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: more tips and tactics and tools. I release a lot 420 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: of stuff through social media, So you can find me 421 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: on LinkedIn. Just search for Amantha Imba. I think I'm 422 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: the only one there, and you can also find me 423 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Amantha and on Instagram at Amantha. 424 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 2: I you talk. 425 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: About setting goals in six week chunks or I think 426 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: you use the language six week chapters. 427 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: I believe that's right. 428 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: Can you tell me, like why six weeks? Why is 429 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: that a good amount of time? 430 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 3: Well, you know, people are learning. I'm a bit of 431 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 3: a magpie, so I'm always on the lookout for other 432 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 3: people who had good ideas, who've tested stuff, and I 433 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 3: came to the region that went this is particularly helpful 434 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 3: in the conversation of setting out a worthy goal. And 435 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 3: this worthy goal, which is part of this book how 436 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 3: to Begin, It's like you want a goal that is 437 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 3: thrilling and important and daunting, so something that is a 438 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 3: bit nerve wracking as you take it on. You know, 439 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 3: I was talking to Liz Wiseman the other day, who 440 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 3: has a new book out, and she's like, it's like, 441 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 3: you know how to start the project, but you don't 442 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 3: know how to finish it, Like exactly, there's a goal 443 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 3: like that, So the kind of right weight to it. 444 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 3: And this isn't something that you've done before. You might 445 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 3: not have done it technically, or you just might not 446 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 3: have done it at this scale or at this level 447 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 3: of ambition or something. So it's there's unknown, and it 448 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 3: means that you can't just map out a you know, 449 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 3: a three year project of a water fall going this 450 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 3: and this and this and this. It is emergent. It's 451 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 3: going to evolve. Even what might be the goal, the 452 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 3: bigger goal that you have made, change and evolve as 453 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 3: you begin the work on it. So this idea of well, 454 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 3: here's another metaphor. It's not like you set you find 455 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 3: your worthy goal and then you go right, I'll just 456 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 3: type in the Destiny Nation addressing to my Google maps, 457 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 3: and you know, it's like seventeen minutes, five corners eighteen 458 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,719 Speaker 3: minutes if you stop at the coffee shop. You know, 459 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 3: it's more like you. You're in front of you is 460 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 3: a kind of misty valley, and on the on the 461 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 3: other side of the valley is that kind of a 462 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 3: peak which you think is your peak, but you're not 463 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 3: entirely sure, and you've got to find your way forward 464 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: and you've got to navigate your way through the wilderness 465 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 3: that's in front of you to get to your destination. 466 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 3: So you know, I can claim inspiration from something like orienteering. 467 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 3: So you're like map and compass, You're like, okay, this 468 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 3: is where I'm trying to go. So you set your 469 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 3: compass and you set a destination. I've got to get 470 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 3: to that gum tree, and then you run to that 471 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 3: gum tree and then you pull out your map and 472 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 3: you re orient and you get your compass out and 473 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 3: you get to the next gum tree or rock or whatever. 474 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 3: But it's the same pattern you see in things like 475 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 3: Agile in terms of how they think about working in bursts. 476 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 3: They figure out what the important thing is, they work 477 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 3: hard on it, and then they stop and they go, now, 478 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 3: what if we've done this or we' to do this, 479 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 3: where do we what feels most important now? And it 480 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 3: also is a process talked about by the former chief 481 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 3: tech officer of base Camp, and he's got a book 482 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 3: called I can't remember what the book is called, but 483 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 3: it's basically about how they ship product in base Camp. 484 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 3: And he says said, look, we tested it, and it 485 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 3: seems that six weeks is long enough to make real 486 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 3: progress on something, but short enough that if you've just 487 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 3: been spent six weeks working on the wrong thing, the 488 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 3: opportunity cost isn't that great, So you can get really 489 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 3: committed to it, you can go far. And also, if 490 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 3: it's been a complete bust. It's only six weeks in 491 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 3: the big scheme of things. So I was like, you 492 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 3: know what, that's a good thing. That's I'm going to 493 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 3: steal that. So six weeks it is. 494 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: Now, can you tell me about the session that you 495 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: did with Aaron Wig, which I believe was to help 496 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: you find your way forward? 497 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 3: Yeah? Aaron Weed? So wait, how do I spell that? 498 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 3: It's literally like a weed weed? 499 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 2: Got it? 500 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 3: So like not a flower but a weed. But she 501 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 3: is a total flower. So two years ago or a 502 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 3: little longer now, I stopped being the CEO at Box 503 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 3: of Crayons. Now, this was a company that I'd founded 504 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 3: twenty years earlier or thereabouts, and it had, to my surprise, 505 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 3: grown into a pretty big, pretty successful learning and development company. 506 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 3: But not to my surprise, I just found out that 507 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 3: I just wasn't a great CEO. Like I didn't suck, 508 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 3: but nor was I really wonderful at it, and nor 509 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 3: was I super excited about that as a job. So 510 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,959 Speaker 3: how to coach? I kind of hired or no, I 511 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 3: kind of tapped Shannon, who's working for the company. I said, 512 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 3: you're around, next CEO. We spent a year preparing for 513 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 3: the handover, and then on a certain date I stepped aside, 514 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 3: she became CEO, and we had another year being coached 515 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 3: to basically stopped me screwing up the founder transition because 516 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 3: founders always medal and their beard and their prima donnas 517 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 3: and blah blah blah. So it's basically to keep me 518 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 3: out of the kitchen. So that all went pretty well. 519 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 3: But I'm on the other side going, and you know, Mantha, 520 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 3: this kind of connects to your you know, what's my 521 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 3: next project question from earlier on. I'm going, well, who 522 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 3: am I? 523 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: Now? 524 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 3: What am I doing? And you know, am I am 525 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 3: I anything? Now that I'm not the CEO of Box 526 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 3: of Crayons? And it wasn't exactly an existential crisis, but 527 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 3: I was really struggling to figure out what the next 528 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 3: thing to do because I had literally spent like fifteen 529 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 3: years investing time and money and everything into being known 530 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 3: as a guy who talked about curiosity and coaching and 531 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 3: the coaching habit and all of that stuff. And now 532 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 3: that wasn't my thing to talk about anymore. That was 533 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 3: Box of Crowns and I was going to be separate 534 00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 3: from that. So somebody mentioned erin we work to me. 535 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,239 Speaker 3: She calls it the dig dog, and she's like, well, 536 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 3: here's what happens over two three hour processes. You will 537 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 3: tell her your story, she'll listen to it, and in 538 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 3: real time, she will create your your ecosystem, your kind 539 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 3: of operating system using language. It'll be you know, somewhere 540 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 3: between one and five different words. And Amanda, I can't 541 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 3: tell you how skeptical I was about this. I was 542 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 3: just like, you know, first of all, I'm a pretty 543 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 3: good facilitator, and I'm like, Okay, you're gonna have to 544 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 3: be a really good facilitator because I'm very impatient with 545 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 3: poor facilitators and I'm not that good with the kind 546 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 3: of woo woo stuff either. So I'm like, ah, man, 547 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 3: this sounds like it's it's a combination of bad facilitation 548 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 3: and woolness. But I was a bit stuck. And you know, 549 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,719 Speaker 3: she actually there are two people who've gone through her 550 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 3: process that I knew and admired. I was like, well, okay, 551 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 3: she's got social proof that is actually of value to me. 552 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 3: So I caught her up and we did this remotely 553 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 3: because there was COVID times or maybe it wasn't. Maybe 554 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 3: well it doesn't matter, did it remotely? And Manta, it 555 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 3: was amazing because I was so sure what my three 556 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 3: my words were going to be. They're going to be 557 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 3: something around possibilities and curiosity and coaching and questions and 558 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 3: creativity and making a bit zany or whatever. And I 559 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 3: just was like, I know, I know what this is about. 560 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 3: And the three words that came back were actually none 561 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:39,959 Speaker 3: of the above. One was confidence, one was forward as 562 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 3: in kind of looking forward and progress. And the root word, 563 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 3: the kind of the core word, and my setup is power, 564 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 3: particularly disrupting power kind of how do I how do 565 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 3: I play a role to disrupt and decenter the norms 566 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,719 Speaker 3: of power that show up. I was very excited to 567 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 3: get those three words because I because they offered me 568 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 3: a way out of the box that I built myself, 569 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 3: the box of crayons kind of definition and cloak that 570 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 3: I was finding it hard to shed. And you know, 571 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 3: the power word became the kind of the origin of 572 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 3: what the work that NBS do works is about, which 573 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 3: is to help people be a force for change, where 574 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,959 Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm going to help other people give them 575 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 3: the tools and the confidence and the resources in the 576 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 3: community to claim power and disrupt power in whatever their 577 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 3: sphere happens to be. So as yeah, it's super exciting. 578 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 3: I was surprised, and you know, I know, I actually know. 579 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 3: Eron's just starting to launch a course now I think, 580 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 3: so if people are interested in their state, can go 581 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 3: check her out. I really recommend it. 582 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 2: That's so cool. 583 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: Now, I want to know, if you're not working at 584 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: your best, how do you get yourself back on track? 585 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 3: Well, the first thing I try and do is I 586 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 3: just try not to beat myself up for not working 587 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 3: at my best, because there's nothing more miserable than going, 588 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 3: what's wrong with me? I'm not being able to work 589 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 3: at my best? And then you kind of get into 590 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 3: this Shane spiral of what you know, I'm a you know, 591 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 3: I'm a privileged white man and I'm at my peak, 592 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 3: which is not actually true, but let's pretend it is. 593 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 3: And I'm like, why can't I grind it out or 594 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 3: blah blah blah. So there's a way to be to 595 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 3: be kind of kind about it. I try and follow 596 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 3: the science, Amantha, and that means nap and go for 597 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 3: a walk and get into nature a little bit. And 598 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 3: I'm not always convinced that I can tell the difference 599 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 3: that it feels better, But I'm just trusting that actually 600 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 3: I'm just the same as everybody else, and that lying 601 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 3: down and taking a twenty minute nap or going for 602 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 3: a thirty minute walk outside is just going to help 603 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,239 Speaker 3: me help me get better. And you know, there's all 604 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 3: the good stuff we know about you know, make you know, 605 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 3: doing the tasks that you feel that are appropriate to 606 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 3: your level of energy right now. So there are sometimes 607 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 3: I'm like, man, I couldn't create a creative spark if 608 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 3: if my life depended on that. So I'll say I'm 609 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 3: just going to go, right, I'm just going to see 610 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 3: if I can do forty minutes and get my inbox 611 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 3: down to less than twenty eight thousand inbox messages or 612 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 3: something something like that. So there's there's a way of 613 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 3: kind of setting context around that. But you know that, 614 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 3: I think probably the final standard I give myself it's 615 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 3: says to go, well, what is good enough? Because there 616 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 3: I find what's really pernicious Amantha is a driving level 617 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 3: of quality that is not always required. So a big 618 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 3: thing is says to go, if I had to guess 619 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 3: what good enough was for this little piece of work, right, 620 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 3: now what would that be and is that within reach? 621 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 3: Right now? 622 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: I've heard that you do something call and I hope 623 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: I'm getting this name correct. That this not that exercise. 624 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that? 625 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 3: I can? And sorry, I do do this. Yeah. This 626 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 3: is also what I do is I forget some of 627 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 3: the tools that my dispose. 628 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 2: Of until a podcast host reminds you. 629 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you, Mantha. You did it very very 630 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 3: graciously as well. So one of my early jobs was 631 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 3: in the world of kind of branding and particularly new 632 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 3: product development. And you know, some a company would go, 633 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 3: you know, Michael and your your organization, we need you 634 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 3: to invent a new thing for us, but it has 635 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 3: to be it has to fit with our brand. And 636 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 3: the challenge is that it's really hard to get people 637 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 3: to talk about what a brand is and what it 638 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 3: really means beyond just kind of the obvious. So you 639 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 3: have to come up with a way of thinking about 640 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 3: describing a brand. And I first came across as tool 641 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 3: this not in the context of describing a brand, and 642 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 3: then I moved it into the world of personal development 643 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 3: and self growth and self management. So here's how I 644 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 3: think about it. I come up with pairs of words, 645 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 3: somewhere between five and seven pairs of words, and I'm 646 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 3: trying to articulate what I'm like at my very best 647 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 3: and also what I'm like not when I'm at my worst, 648 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 3: but when I'm just when I'm off my game, you know, 649 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 3: like I'm ten percent off my game or fifteen percent 650 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 3: off my game. And I find that's a really helpful Chok. 651 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 3: So let me give you an example of some of 652 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 3: the pairs of words. Step forward, not step back, hold 653 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 3: it lightly, not take it seriously, be generous, don't be greedy. 654 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,439 Speaker 3: And the way I manage it, Amantha, is if I'm 655 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 3: feeling understress, and I particularly feel this if like I'm 656 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 3: I'm about to give a speech in front of a 657 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 3: kind of important audience, or I'm having a meeting with 658 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 3: somebody and it feels like there's a lot on the 659 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 3: line and I want my best public version of myself 660 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 3: to show up. This is particularly when I use this tool, 661 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 3: because what I will often do is I will notice 662 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 3: how I am playing small or shutting down or kind 663 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 3: of manifesting some of those behaviors that are in the 664 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 3: not that column, and I'll need to go into the 665 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 3: this column to remember what I'm like at my very best. 666 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 3: So as an example, I was down in Detroit, you know, 667 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 3: the home of all the big car manufacturers, some years ago, 668 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,240 Speaker 3: and I was giving a talk and it was basically 669 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 3: a whole bunch of senior folks from like all the 670 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 3: big car manufacturers, and it was just like this gathering 671 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 3: of alpha males. I mean, honestly, they were all six 672 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 3: foot four. They all had white teeth and short gray hair, 673 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 3: and gray suits and white shirts and red ties and 674 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 3: really firm handshakes. And this isn't my natural setting at all. 675 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 3: And I could just feel myself shrinking because I'm like, 676 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 3: oh man, these are my people, this is my audience. 677 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 3: And you know, my usual speech or workshop thing is 678 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 3: kind of a bit provocative, a bit performative, a very interactive, 679 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,240 Speaker 3: and I could just have I have all these doubts, 680 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 3: you know, like, oh man, this is bad. I should 681 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 3: shut it down. I should behave I should conform to 682 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 3: what's going to be expected of me. And then I 683 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 3: noticed that and I was like, oh, and one of 684 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 3: my pairs of words is provocative, not sycophantic, you know, 685 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 3: sycophantic meaning basically sucking up to somebody. And I could 686 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 3: just feel myself becoming sycophantic, and I'm like, Okay, I'm 687 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 3: going to remember that. Actually part of me at my 688 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 3: best is to be a little bit provocative. And it 689 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 3: kind of gave me permission and got me reconnected to 690 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 3: how I wanted to be on stage with these people, 691 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 3: how I wanted to be the best version of myself. 692 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 2: That's great. 693 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: Something I've noticed, like, you're so well spoken, Michael, And 694 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: I've noticed when I ask you a question, I feel 695 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: like you're sort of taking a deep breath in and 696 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: then you'll like come up with these incredibly wise words. 697 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 2: What is your process? 698 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: I'm really I'm curious about what's going on for you, 699 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: Like when you're sort of taking that breath in and 700 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: then responding. 701 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 3: I appreciate you you noticing that. You know, some years ago, 702 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 3: I read a book called The Advice Trap, and the 703 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 3: message and the advice trap is your advice is not 704 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 3: nearly as good as you think it is. And I 705 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 3: was like, you know, authors often write books for themselves. 706 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 3: I'm like, Michael, this one's for you. Your advice is not 707 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 3: nearly as good as you think it is. And I've 708 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 3: just tried to build a practice of you know, taking it, honestly, 709 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 3: taking a bit of a breath to think, what's the 710 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 3: best answer to this that I might be able to offer, 711 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 3: rather than what's the first answer that comes to mind? 712 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 3: Because I'm now, you know, I'm in my somebody once 713 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 3: said that I'm in my early mid fifties. So I've 714 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 3: just been around long enough now, I just I know stuff, 715 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 3: and I know alternatives, and I know options. You know, 716 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,959 Speaker 3: I've just been around enough that enough settlement has sunk 717 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 3: to the bottom of this particular lake, and I'm like, 718 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 3: how do I how do I find an answer that 719 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,959 Speaker 3: feels most decisive right now that could be of best 720 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 3: service to the audience right now rather than just the 721 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 3: first thing that comes to mind. 722 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 2: I like that a lot. 723 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: My natural inclination when I'm being interviewed somewhere or doing 724 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: Q and A off the back of a keynote or 725 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 1: something is to feel that silence. The silence is so scary. 726 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: I feel like, you're incredibly good. It's just been comfortable 727 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,720 Speaker 1: with that silence. And it's been interesting for me as 728 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: interviewing you, and I mean, you know, we've we've met, 729 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: we've hung out up before. 730 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 2: It's been a really interesting experience. I'm as sign Michael, 731 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:06,760 Speaker 2: thank you. 732 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 3: There's a great there's a great example of me sounding 733 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 3: like I'm comfortable with silence whilst not being comfortable at all. 734 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 3: A couple of months ago, I was on Brene Brown's podcast, 735 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 3: which was a big treat. You know, I was super 736 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 3: excited to get invited to be part of that, but 737 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 3: I didn't know. She didn't give me any preparation for 738 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 3: what it was like. I didn't have an interview with 739 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 3: a producer or anything, so I had no idea what 740 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 3: we were going to be talking about. And forty minutes 741 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 3: into it, forty five minutes into it, she guys, okay, 742 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 3: so coach me. I was like, oh my god, I'm 743 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,879 Speaker 3: coaching Brene Brown. Try not to panic. And I would 744 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 3: ask Brene a question and there just be this silence. 745 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 3: And I'm not sure how long that it goes on for, 746 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 3: because I'm not that good at listening to myself and me, 747 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 3: but it felt like it was like a twenty minute 748 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 3: silence up between me asking a question, her answering at 749 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,919 Speaker 3: and inside my head is like, oh my god, fill 750 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 3: the silence, fill the silence, ask another question. But you know, 751 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 3: experience was like you know what, just hold the silence 752 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 3: because it's such a precious gift to give people a 753 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 3: bit of space to think. 754 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: It. 755 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 3: Also, you know, if you're asked a question and you 756 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 3: take a beat or two to figure out a good 757 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 3: answer and somehow shows a respect to the question and 758 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 3: also gives a weight to the answer that might not 759 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 3: come with a really fast response. 760 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 2: So true. 761 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: Now for people that want to consume more of what 762 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:38,359 Speaker 1: you are putting into the world, Michael, and also get 763 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: their hands on a copy of How to Begin. What 764 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 1: is the best way for people to do that? 765 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 3: Thank you? How to Begin It's pub date is January eleventh, 766 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 3: But if you go to how to Begin dot com, 767 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 3: you know you'll get access, you'll get ways to buy 768 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 3: the book if you want that. You also there's a 769 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 3: kind of free staff and download. So how to Begin 770 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 3: dot com is a place for the book. If you 771 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 3: want a more general introduction to the work that I do, 772 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 3: MBS dot Works is where you'll find my podcast few 773 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 3: pages With MBS, We've got this wonderful free year long 774 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 3: course called The Year of Living Brilliantly, which was meant 775 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 3: to be like a marketing thing. You know, I get 776 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,839 Speaker 3: people into this course and upsell them to stuff. But 777 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 3: it's a terrible marketing thing because it's literally a year 778 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 3: of brilliant teachers teaching people new stuff, like a new 779 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,240 Speaker 3: six minute video every week. So by the time people 780 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 3: are done, they're like, we're exhausted. There's been so much 781 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 3: good work here that we don't want to buy anything. 782 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 3: So terrible marketing idea, but a great course if people 783 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 3: are interested in that. 784 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:41,240 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Michael. 785 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: I've just loved this chat. I feel like I've taken 786 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 1: so many notes and it's been one of those interviews 787 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: where it's like, I'm going to go back and listen 788 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: to this like a few more times because there's yeah, 789 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 1: I can't wait to share it with listeners. 790 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 2: So thank you so much for your time. 791 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 3: Meantha, thank you. You're a wonderful host. It's hard to 792 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 3: believe this has been an hour. It's gone really quickly. 793 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: I hope you liked my chat with Michael. I just 794 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: feel like whenever I catch. 795 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,839 Speaker 2: Up with Michael, I learn so much. 796 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: This is one of those episodes where I will be 797 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: going back over and taking even more notes. 798 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 2: Now. 799 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: If you are not a subscriber or follower of how 800 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: I work, now might be the time to do so, 801 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 1: because next week I have got playwright David Williamson on 802 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: the show. David Williamson is someone who I absolutely idolized 803 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 1: as a teenager and throughout my twenties when I was 804 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: a massive theater geek, so I was so excited to 805 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 1: get the chance to chat to David. How I Work 806 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. 807 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: The producer for this episode was Jenna Kota, and thank 808 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: you to Martin Nimba, who does the audio mix for 809 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: every episode and makes everything sound better than it would 810 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: have otherwise. 811 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:54,839 Speaker 2: See you next time.