1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Have you ever found yourself sitting in a meeting and 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: feeling too afraid to speak up and voice your idea, 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: only to realize later the outcome would have been ten 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: times better if it's spoken up. For the last four years, 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: Tim McKinnon has been the managing director of eBay Australia, 6 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 1: and today he provides some practical tips on helping to 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: find your voice, as well as how to have impact 8 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: as a leader, and also why he felt like throwing 9 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: up when his name was announced as the new leader 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: of eBay Australia. My name is doctor Amathe Imba. I'm 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 12 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: and this is how I work, a show about how 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. On today is 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: my favorite tip episode? Will you go back to an 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: interview from the past and I pick out my favorite 16 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: tip from the interview. In today's show, I speak with 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: Tim McKinnon and this extract starts with Tim talking about 18 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: how leaders need to find the right balance between being 19 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: approachable and authentic but also having authority. 20 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: There's two dimensions. There's people who are leaders who struggle 21 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: with being authentic. There's a balance in life between having 22 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: authority and being approachable, And so there's people at both 23 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 2: ends of the spectrum, and they're more senior leaders, and 24 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: we get frustrated at our politicians and American CEOs is 25 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 2: not being authentic. 26 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: Right. 27 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 2: The other side of the problem, which is more common, 28 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 2: is people who are more themselves but actually don't know 29 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: how to be a leader, and they don't know how 30 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: to behave and to speak up and to take authority. 31 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: And I'd say there's a core job of my job 32 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: is not just to be authentic myself, but create the 33 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: conditions for everyone at work to be authentic. And I 34 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 2: know that people can't be one hundred percent say whatever 35 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: they think for one hundred percent. I can think that 36 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: idea is, you know, we all we all have kind 37 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: of versions of ourselves that we show to people, even 38 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 2: to the people we're closest to. But I mean, like 39 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: our job is to is to help people in their 40 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 2: workplace actually their work self and their home self not 41 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: be that different, like if there's a massive dichotomy between 42 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: those as a real problem, and secondly, to help them 43 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: be leaders. Like I think everyone on my team are 44 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: amazing leaders, and my job is to create the conditions 45 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: where they feel comfortable speaking up and expressing their view. 46 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: So I guess I'll start with it like practical tips 47 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: for people. If the first case, if you're a leader 48 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 2: and you're struggling with authenticity, or if you've been given 49 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: that feedback, my first question you should ask yourself is 50 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: is this an environment where I can I really feel 51 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: like it supports me for who I am? Or is 52 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: there just too much it's just they're just too different. 53 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: And if it's if it's not that environment, you don't 54 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: feel like you can be yourself and you can see 55 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: no way to being yourself because of the culture, it 56 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: might not be the best environment for you. But the 57 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 2: other part of it is, well, how do you change 58 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: the environment to make it so that people can be 59 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: themselves more? And then what it starts with you? So, 60 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 2: I mean the first thing to being authentic is being vulnerable. 61 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: I think that's like the key. You know, it's just 62 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: people admitting that they don't have it all under control, 63 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: for people saying I don't know the answer to that, 64 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: I don't know what to do here, I'm struggling. If 65 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: you start with that, people will reach out and that 66 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 2: really builds trust and I mean anyone who's accused of 67 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: being fake or not authentic, as someone who is not 68 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: genuinely vulnerable about what's going wrong because nobody has got 69 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: it all under control, like no one. And then obviously 70 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: like as you develop that capability as developing your self 71 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: awareness is really important and generally and self reflection can help. 72 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: And I'm still going to do a lot more of that. 73 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: You know, while you're getting too that getting feedback from people, 74 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: like there must be people you can trust it can 75 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: just tell you just be honest with you and say, 76 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: especially as you get more senior, people are less likely 77 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 2: to tell you the truth, So you've got to seek 78 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: it out, and you've got to find people who give 79 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 2: it to you straight and talk to them a lot. 80 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 2: Whenever someone's leaving the company, I always try to chat 81 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: to them and get feedback because you know they're going 82 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 2: to be honest in that situation because they don't have 83 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: to think about working with you in the future. And 84 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 2: then the last thing is probably just you know, creating 85 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: every opportunity to fuse your personal life and your work life. 86 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 2: So talk about your life outside of work a lot 87 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: at work so people understand that part of you and 88 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 2: that feels natural, and I think that really helps. And 89 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 2: so incorporate talking about your family or your hobbies, or 90 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: your fears, or your history, or your hopes or your holidays, 91 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: and then you'll start to see that barrier breakdown for 92 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: the second class of people that struggle to speak up 93 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: to be leaders, people like an imposter syndrome. I think 94 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 2: everyone suffers from that. I remember distinctly when I was 95 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: made the managing director of EBO Australia. We had an 96 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: all hands and my then boss was about to announce 97 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: my name and I was sitting there and I had 98 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: this overwhelming feeling of wanting to vomit on the carpet, 99 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 2: Like I just felt nausey that I'd never felt in 100 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 2: my life before. And I stood up and I really 101 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 2: really really had to had to contain myself from doing 102 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: like a massive projectile vomit over everyone, which would have 103 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 2: done a really bad start. Because I'd never thought of myself, 104 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: I'm not this guy, like, I'm not that kind of 105 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 2: personal I've never had aspired to be a CEO. I 106 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 2: grew up and my idea of who a leader is 107 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: is completely different, and I had to remind myself, well, actually, 108 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: like I've managed to do things and lead and achieve 109 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: notwithstanding that, notwithstanding I never fit this mold. And so 110 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 2: to people who struggle, I'd say, you have to remember 111 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: that what has got you to where you are is 112 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 2: good like and you are a leader, and you kind 113 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 2: of need to, you know, find people that believe in you. 114 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 2: It might just be your parents, and just reinforce you 115 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: and say you can do this and start to speak up. 116 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: There was a colleague at eBay who who wasn't comfortable 117 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: speaking up when he wrote down every decision that was 118 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 2: getting made in these meetings and what he would have decided, 119 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: and he went back. He wrote this over like twelve months, 120 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: and he went back and found that he was actually 121 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: making the right decisions eighty percent of the time, but 122 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 2: he wasn't actually expressing his view. And if you don't 123 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: know what to speak up about, you don't know how 124 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 2: to have impact, Like, you know, get really good, I'd 125 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 2: sort of say to people start at eBay, get really 126 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: good to understand the data, or know the customers really well, 127 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 2: talk to them more than anyone else, or really invest 128 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: in the relationships across the company, and that will give 129 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: you the authority and the confidence to speak up and let. 130 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you want to 131 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: follow some of the work that I'm doing, you might 132 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: want to reach out on some of the social media 133 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: channels that I'm on, which is LinkedIn search for Amantha Inba, 134 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: Twitter which is at Amantha, and Instagram which is at 135 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: amantha I. How I Work is produced by Inventium with 136 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: production support from Dead Set Studios and thank you tomt 137 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: Nimba who does the audio mix for every episode and 138 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: makes everything sound amazing. See you next time.