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Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the technics

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Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 1: their day.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbat.

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Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium,

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Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day.

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Speaker 1: Before I get into today's episode, I have an exciting

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Speaker 1: program launching on October twenty one, which you can be

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Speaker 1: part of from wherever in the world you're listening to

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Speaker 1: this podcast. From the program is called our Workday Reinvention Program,

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Speaker 1: which is something I've been working on in Inventium for

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Speaker 1: the last two years. So it's a six week program

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Speaker 1: designed to reinvent the way that you work. The program

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Speaker 1: contains a whole bunch of science backed ways to have

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Speaker 1: a more productive, fulfilling, and happier work life, and we've

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Speaker 1: gotten some amazing results from the program so far. Not

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Speaker 1: only have we increased people's productivity by around twenty two percent,

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Speaker 1: which is nearly one day per week worth of extra time,

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Speaker 1: but we've also increased people's engagement, energy levels, job satisfaction,

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Speaker 1: and even general well being at work by up to

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Speaker 1: twenty eight percent. And that's just within six weeks.

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Speaker 2: So if you're a listener of.

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Speaker 1: How I Work, go to Bitley bit dot ly Forward

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Speaker 1: slash Workday program. That's Bitley Forward slash Workday program, and

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Speaker 1: listeners of How I Work can get a seventy five

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Speaker 1: dollar discount on the cost of the program just end

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Speaker 1: of the code how I Work. That's one word how

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Speaker 1: I Work at check out and get that discount, and

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Speaker 1: I'll link to all that in the show notes too.

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Speaker 1: So the program starts on October twenty one, and if

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Speaker 1: you're a listener of the show, I think that you'll

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Speaker 1: absolutely love this program and get.

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Speaker 2: A stack of value from it.

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Speaker 1: So today's episode is a best of episode because I

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Speaker 1: am on podcast holidays for a couple of weeks. So

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Speaker 1: what I've done is I've trolled through this year and

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Speaker 1: picked out my personal favorite episodes to share with you again.

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Speaker 1: So my guess is Jake Nap. Jake spent the last

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Speaker 1: ten years at Google and Google Ventures, where he created

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Speaker 1: the design sprint, which is a method for building and

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Speaker 1: testing a prototype in five days. He then went on

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Speaker 1: and wrote a book about the process called Sprint, which

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Speaker 1: was a New York Times bestseller.

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Speaker 2: He recently wrote another.

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Speaker 1: Book called Make Time, which I've mentioned in previous episodes.

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Speaker 2: I personally loved.

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Speaker 1: Make Time, which is all about strategies to help make

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Speaker 1: time for doing your most important work and really getting

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Speaker 1: the most out of each day.

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Speaker 2: Now, I was so.

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Speaker 1: Excited to have Jake on the show because I followed

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Speaker 1: his work for several years, and what I particularly loved

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Speaker 1: about this chat was just how practical Jake is in

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Speaker 1: his strategies and how he's applied them during his time

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Speaker 1: at Google. Now I should warn you that this chat

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Speaker 1: somehow ended up starting with a story about a near

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Speaker 1: death experience, but don't worry, it gets more upbeat from there.

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Speaker 1: So on that note, over to Jake to hear about

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Speaker 1: how he works.

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Speaker 2: Jake, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Hey, thank you for having me Onmantha, I'm super excited

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Speaker 3: to be here. Well, I mean here virtually, I guess

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Speaker 3: we're talking on the phone.

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Speaker 2: But absolutely absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I want to start with the question of how you

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Speaker 1: became a time doc, which is obviously how you affectionately

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Speaker 1: refer to yourself.

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Speaker 2: So, so can you tell me how that all started?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I'm I mean I've always been interested in

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Speaker 3: design and building products, even before I realized that was

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Speaker 3: the name for what I was interested in even as

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Speaker 3: a kid. I wanted to like make games, and I

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Speaker 3: wanted to design things, and I worked on the newspaper

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Speaker 3: in high school. All these things that sort of led

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Speaker 3: me to It's easy to see how I became a

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Speaker 3: product designer. But how I got obsessed with time, I

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Speaker 3: don't know. I guess it's things in real life that

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Speaker 3: got me interested in it. And you know, there's a

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Speaker 3: few sort of stories. I guess one of them is

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Speaker 3: that when I was in high school, I'm very tall.

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Speaker 3: People have met me, you know, well that will agree

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Speaker 3: that I'm extremely sort of freakishly tall. And so I

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Speaker 3: played basketball and I love to play basketball, and in

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Speaker 3: high school I almost died playing basketball. Actually was Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I had this guy actually in just sort of a

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Speaker 3: pickup game accidentally kind of like caught my leg on

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Speaker 3: a guy's shoulder when I was like jumping up for

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Speaker 3: a shot and I fell on my side. I ruptured

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Speaker 3: my spleen. I grew up on this little island, so

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Speaker 3: like it would have been actually a pretty serious injury

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Speaker 3: no matter where you were. But they had to like

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Speaker 3: fly me off of the island because there's no hospital

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Speaker 3: where they could do surgery on the island and anyway,

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Speaker 3: I came very close actually to dying when I was,

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Speaker 3: like I guess, I was sixteen years old, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I mean when you're a kid. Usually I think as

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Speaker 3: a kid you get to have this long period of

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Speaker 3: time where you feel immortal, you know, and you think

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Speaker 3: that no get happened to you. But I got a

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Speaker 3: very stark reminder that I was mortal, and that changed

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Speaker 3: the way I looked at the world, I think, And

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Speaker 3: then I had about It was nine years later when

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Speaker 3: I my wife and I had our first child, and

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Speaker 3: having a kid was another thing that had a big

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Speaker 3: effect on me and made me really rethink the way

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Speaker 3: I was spending my time during the day and made

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Speaker 3: me want to want to slow time down and pay

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Speaker 3: more attention to what was going on. And and my father,

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Speaker 3: who was very close to he passed away a couple

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Speaker 3: of years ago, and he had he had Alzheimer, so

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Speaker 3: we knew for like a few years I could tell

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Speaker 3: he was ill, and that also made me want to

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Speaker 3: just I just felt, I don't know, I just feel

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Speaker 3: like I had had And I think this happens to

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Speaker 3: every person. You see life events they happened to you,

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Speaker 3: or they happen to people you care about, beginnings and endings,

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Speaker 3: and it makes you want to pay attention to what

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Speaker 3: goes on and make sure that it doesn't go by

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Speaker 3: in a blur.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how interesting that it started all on the basketball

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Speaker 1: court for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it was. I mean, you know, it wasn't

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Speaker 3: like it wasn't like a big sort of wise moment

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Speaker 3: for me. I was just I was just a kid,

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Speaker 3: and you know, but yeah, man, I mean I was.

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Speaker 3: I woke up in the hospital after having my scleen

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Speaker 3: taken out, and I was like, they were like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: if you had if it had taken us fifteen more

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Speaker 3: minutes to get you here, you would have you would

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Speaker 3: have died. So it was a it was a crazy

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Speaker 3: event and definitely just kind of like, you know, like

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Speaker 3: just made me a little more not all the time,

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Speaker 3: but a little more serious sometimes about how I did things.

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Speaker 1: Hmmm.

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Speaker 2: That's so wow. That's quite the story. And I want

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Speaker 2: to switch skeys and heavy with a death story. Light

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Speaker 2: in the mood. Well, let's let's let's let's not talk

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Speaker 2: about death now, and let's just.

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Speaker 3: Let's just table that for at least ten minutes.

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Speaker 2: Exactly exactly. We'll revisit at the end.

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Speaker 1: No, So I want to talk about I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about Make Time, because that's your latest book. And

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of listeners would would know you

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Speaker 1: from your your first book, which was Sprint, which has

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Speaker 1: certainly had had a really big impact on a lot

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Speaker 1: of clients that that we work with. So I run

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Speaker 1: an innovation consultancy, and I know a lot of people

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Speaker 1: that are fans of that book, as am I. And

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Speaker 1: and and it's kind of like an interesting transition where

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Speaker 1: in Sprint you obviously talked about how to make the

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Speaker 1: most of time for for kind of I guess, discrete

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Speaker 1: projects and getting them up and running to solve problems.

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Speaker 1: And I really loved reading Make Time. It's such a

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Speaker 1: it's such a fun read.

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Speaker 2: And I don't mean that in a frivolous way.

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Speaker 1: It's it's just it's super easy to consume and laugh

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Speaker 1: out loud funny, which you don't really expect from a

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Speaker 1: book that is about managing your time.

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Speaker 2: So there are a lot of strategies in the book.

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Speaker 1: I think maybe seventy or eighty off the top of

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Speaker 1: my head, but I wanted to know, like, what are

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Speaker 1: the top ones for you, Like, what have been the

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Speaker 1: absolute game changes for you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, part of this whole thing is

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Speaker 3: that I think, I mean, we started off very serious,

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Speaker 3: and I think that you do have to take your

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Speaker 3: time seriously, but you also kind of have to have fun.

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Speaker 3: I mean, because you know, like you just sort of

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Speaker 3: you gotta have fun. And we so often are in

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Speaker 3: settings in work or whatever, and we're encouraged to take

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Speaker 3: things serious or we're a lot of times the advice

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Speaker 3: about time management it's very serious and intense and almost

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Speaker 3: like guilty, you know, like you should feel guilty about

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Speaker 3: what's going on, or feel guilty about wasting time or whatever.

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Speaker 3: And I think that that idea of guilt and heaviness

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Speaker 3: even it's quite problematic. It certainly for me, there was

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Speaker 3: this long you know, for years and years and years

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Speaker 3: trying to figure out the best way to manage my

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Speaker 3: own time and how to I thought I could come

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Speaker 3: up with some perfect system that would mean that every

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Speaker 3: day I would be doing, you know, a great job,

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Speaker 3: being super productive, and then I just always ended up

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Speaker 3: feeling guilty about it. And so Make Time is kind

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Speaker 3: of about this change of heart and this new approach

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Speaker 3: to looking at the ideas that people have probably heard before,

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Speaker 3: but different, a different way of looking at them, a

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Speaker 3: different way of talking about them and thinking about them,

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Speaker 3: so that it's more fun, it's more lightweight, and honestly,

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Speaker 3: hopefully it works better. It actually fits into real life

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Speaker 3: in a better way. But to answer your question, some

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Speaker 3: of the tactics that are the favorite of mine from

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Speaker 3: this different way of looking at it are. One of

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Speaker 3: them is instead like, okay, to do lists, you kind

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Speaker 3: of have to have a to do list, right, Like

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Speaker 3: we got to keep track of stuff that's going on, sure,

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Speaker 3: but most productivity starts and ends in the to do list.

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Speaker 3: It's all about getting the to do list right. It's

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Speaker 3: all about prioritizing that and managing those to do So

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Speaker 3: there's all kinds of software tools for managing those, assigning them,

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Speaker 3: you know, breaking them up. All this stuff. To me,

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Speaker 3: the to do list became my boss. It was like

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Speaker 3: ruling my life. So one of the most powerful tactics

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Speaker 3: is to kind of ignore the to do list as

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Speaker 3: much as possible and instead, each day choose one highlight

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Speaker 3: and write it down. So every day in the morning,

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Speaker 3: I'm saying, if the day was over, what would I

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Speaker 3: want to say, was the highlight of my day today?

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Speaker 3: You know, what would what would make me feel satisfied

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Speaker 3: or feel joyful? What would that be? And to think

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Speaker 3: of that one thing, not just one little task, but

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Speaker 3: like what you know, maybe be sort of ambitious, make

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Speaker 3: it a sixty to ninety minute thing and write it down.

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Speaker 3: You know, today I will do this thing and I

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Speaker 3: just write down that one thing. And it doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: I'm not doing other things. It doesn't mean that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I have to check email, and I do have to

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Speaker 3: keep a to do list of some little tasks. But

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Speaker 3: those things then all are they're kind of in the

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Speaker 3: backseat and I'm driving with the highlight. I'm driving with

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Speaker 3: the thing that I believe is the most important. And

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Speaker 3: so that's one of the most powerful things. It's a

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Speaker 3: very small, simple shift. It's a simple tactic, but it

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Speaker 3: can really change the way the day feels and also

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Speaker 3: just whether I get the things done that are really important.

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Speaker 3: So that's a big one. And another one that I'll

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Speaker 3: just mention real quickly. I mean, can I can go

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Speaker 3: on and on, because as you said, there are eighty

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Speaker 3: seven tactics in the book, so there's a lot. But

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Speaker 3: I'll just the one other one for me that's really

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Speaker 3: powerful is has been deleting apps off of my phone.

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Speaker 3: And there are that this is a topic I have

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Speaker 3: to I can go on and on about. But there

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Speaker 3: are all of these you know, sort of things on

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Speaker 3: our phone that pull at our attention. And we all

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Speaker 3: know this. This is a topic that has been much

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Speaker 3: discussed in the press and so on, Like there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of tech backlash. And and although I used to

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Speaker 3: be a product designer working on Gmail, and I've worked

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Speaker 3: with a lot of these companies or no people who

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Speaker 3: work at them, I am very sympathetic. Like I have

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Speaker 3: a lot of trouble with things on my phone that

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Speaker 3: drawing my attention. And so six years ago, I had

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Speaker 3: this moment where I just realized, you know what, like

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Speaker 3: I don't need that stuff on my phone. It's fine

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Speaker 3: for me if it's just on my laptop, and the

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Speaker 3: phone is still great even if I delete all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: So I deleted Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, email, even you

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Speaker 3: can turn off Safari on the iPhone, and I turned

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Speaker 3: all those things off and instead I have you know, podcasts,

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Speaker 3: I have a camera, I have maps, I have music,

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Speaker 3: I have a flashlight. I have all these things that

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Speaker 3: actually are really cool. They are really amazing, but it's

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Speaker 3: sort of half of what most folks have on their iPhone.

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Speaker 3: And for me, that distraction free iPhone, it's super powerful

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Speaker 3: because when I'm not sitting at a computer, then it's

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Speaker 3: just me, you know, it's just with just my thoughts.

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Speaker 3: It's not this poll constantly to my pocket. And that's

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Speaker 3: really powerful. So those two if I would say, like,

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Speaker 3: if you wanted to try two things today, and you

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Speaker 3: don't even have to read the book, you know, if

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Speaker 3: you just tried those two things, I think that's really powerful.

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Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of what you've done with the phone,

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Speaker 1: and I've sort of rand similar experiments myself. I've had

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Speaker 1: all social media apps deleted from my phone for probably

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Speaker 1: a year or something like that.

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Speaker 3: And how's that been for you?

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Speaker 2: How's it been the best? Like it was fantastic.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of It started actually probably over a year

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Speaker 1: ago now, where I just got into an Instagram black

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Speaker 1: hole after brushing my teeth at night, and I was

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Speaker 1: just down that hole for two hours and I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: oh my goodness, what have I just doing that? I've

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Speaker 1: just lost two hours doing nothing, So it's crazy.

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Speaker 2: And then more recently I.

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Speaker 1: Deleted my email app because I found that the email

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Speaker 1: became the go to So it's just so, it's so lovely,

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Speaker 1: and can I ask, like, you'll find out how long

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Speaker 1: has your phone been distraction free?

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Speaker 2: As you call it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been six years. Actually, I just realized that,

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Speaker 3: and I just wrote a post. In fact, if your

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Speaker 3: listeners want to read even more about this, I just

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Speaker 3: wrote a post about it called six years with a

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Speaker 3: distraction Free iPhone and I illustrated it and everything. I

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Speaker 3: got really into kind of telling this story about the

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Speaker 3: phone and the effect it had on me. I think

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Speaker 3: it had a really powerful effect on my ability to

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Speaker 3: do big projects, to do things like write books, or

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Speaker 3: to really experiment with and promote the design sprint process.

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Speaker 3: Those things were They're the kinds of projects that were

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Speaker 3: I felt like, really important. But they're also the kind

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Speaker 3: of things that would constantly get pushed aside by day

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Speaker 3: to day work requirements, you know, and the kinds of

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Speaker 3: things that historically in my career had always not happened,

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Speaker 3: They had always fallen by the wayside. And I credit

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Speaker 3: a deal of that to just shutting down those distractions

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Speaker 3: on my phone because when like the smartphone came out,

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Speaker 3: it's been like ten years, right, I Phone ten just

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Speaker 3: came out, so it's been well, not just but last year,

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Speaker 3: but it's been like ten years since we've had smartphones

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Speaker 3: as this big part of our of our day to

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Speaker 3: day lives. And in those ten years, like so much

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Speaker 3: of the distraction has migrated from the desktop to the phone.

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Speaker 3: Like I remember when I started working at Google. I'm sorry,

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Speaker 3: I'm just rambling now, but when I started working at Google,

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Speaker 3: my very first project, very very first project when I

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Speaker 3: began was working on Google Talk. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: anyone remembers what that is, but it was like a

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Speaker 3: desktop chat client for that Google made for Windows computers.

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Speaker 3: And then eventually that chat was also in Gmail and

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Speaker 3: I worked on that as well. But we used to

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Speaker 3: think about how to make chat work as well as

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Speaker 3: it could on the desktop, which was like at that

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Speaker 3: time in two thousand and seven, you know, right before

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Speaker 3: the iPhone came out. That was like that was a

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Speaker 3: big deal to try to, you know, make sure people

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Speaker 3: were able to communicate as efficiently and effectively as possible.

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Speaker 3: It's so weird to think of that now, like that

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Speaker 3: would totally be a mobile first thing now, right, But

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Speaker 3: like ten years ago, the desktop was where all of

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Speaker 3: the attention went. And because everything, all of people's efforts

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Speaker 3: has focused so successfully on mobile phones for the last

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Speaker 3: decade now, it's like such a high leverage place. If

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Speaker 3: you want your attention back and you take those apps

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Speaker 3: off of the phone, then like the desktop is comparatively quiet.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's actually quite easy to control what goes

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Speaker 3: on on the desktop when you shut down that noisy

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Speaker 3: voice in your pocket.

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Speaker 1: That's so true. Gosh, I've just got like a ton

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Speaker 1: of questions freeing from all of that. I want to

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Speaker 1: come back to your time at Google in a moment.

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Speaker 1: But I guess it's like whenever people are bort the

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Speaker 1: phone will come out. So when they're queuing in line

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Speaker 1: for a coffee, for example, you pull your phone out.

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Speaker 1: Or if you know you're out for dinner with family

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Speaker 1: or friends, they go to the bathroom, your phone comes out.

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Speaker 1: What what do you do in those moments given it

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Speaker 1: sounds like there's not much going on on your phone?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean like I kind of have to

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Speaker 3: do nothing because yeah, there's nothing. And this is actually

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Speaker 3: an objection that a lot of people have with the

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Speaker 3: distraction free phone. I mean legitimately, they're like I really

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Speaker 3: like the sound of that, but what am I going

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Speaker 3: to do to fill the space in between, you know?

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Speaker 3: And and again it's like it's not like I'm you know,

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Speaker 3: proposing that you go back to like wearing like a

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Speaker 3: like an animal skin and living in a cave. Like

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Speaker 3: it's not that far back in time that we didn't

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Speaker 3: have smartphones, right, Like when people were cool, they were

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Speaker 3: were fine, they were like making it through the day,

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Speaker 3: you know, making it through like a meal with if

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Speaker 3: somebody went to the bathroom, like you'll be all right, actually,

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Speaker 3: And that is part of the thing that like if

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Speaker 3: if the phone is there, because all of this comes

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Speaker 3: from not for me being like so like masterful, it's

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Speaker 3: because I can't handle the phone at all. I am

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Speaker 3: like I'll be the first one if there's anything on

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Speaker 3: my phone that I can like look at, I'm definitely

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Speaker 3: gonna look at it. So when it's not there, I'm

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Speaker 3: like I'm just looking around the restaurant probably, you know,

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Speaker 3: Like like I'm just like I like I literally will

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Speaker 3: just be bored for a minute. And I think actually

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Speaker 3: being bored is pretty powerful, and there are you know,

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Speaker 3: there's some studies about this, but like basically, when your

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Speaker 3: when your mind is quiet, like it, it gives your

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Speaker 3: brain the chance a different part of your brain the

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Speaker 3: chance to work, you know, and and sometimes that's when

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Speaker 3: an idea might come to me, you know, an idea

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Speaker 3: for something that I'm writing. Maybe I'll just start thinking

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Speaker 3: about something, or maybe I could just notice where I am.

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Speaker 3: And this all sounds very like, I know, it sounds boring,

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Speaker 3: like this is like what me describing being bored is boring,

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Speaker 3: but there is actually that is actually like a resource.

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Speaker 3: Like if you can have little pockets of boredom every

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Speaker 3: now and again in the day, like if you have

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Speaker 3: like a couple times a day when you're bored, or

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Speaker 3: like five times a day when you're bored, or just

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Speaker 3: a few times per week even that you didn't have before,

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Speaker 3: like that lets your brain rest in a way, and

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Speaker 3: sometimes for me, it lets the subconscious come up with

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Speaker 3: a solution to something, solve something or propose is an

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Speaker 3: idea that I hadn't had before, Or maybe if I'm

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Speaker 3: really lucky, I actually like notice something nice that's going on.

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Speaker 3: I noticed the people around me, I noticed the weather outside,

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Speaker 3: or you know, just something that's nice, that that just

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Speaker 3: feels like, yeah, I was alive, Like time slowed down

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Speaker 3: and when I'm looking at my phone, it's like time

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Speaker 3: just disappears. You know, I'm just giving away my life. Honestly,

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Speaker 3: I'm like giving away like some small little piece of

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Speaker 3: my life because I won't remember it. I won't. It's

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Speaker 3: like I'm just going to give myself amnesia for those

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Speaker 3: for that time and give it away. So it's a

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Speaker 3: way too. It might not always be exciting, but it's

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Speaker 3: a way to like reclaim myself. I guess.

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Speaker 2: I love that description of it.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like boredom is kind of like the new

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Speaker 1: meditation or something like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, I mean in a way, that's like

399
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,600
Speaker 3: the easiest way to meditate is just if you're bored

400
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Speaker 3: and can't do anything, you will become more mindful.

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00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,399
Speaker 2: Exactly, just do nothing. Do I want to?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to come back to the highlight. It's

403
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Speaker 1: and firstly, I'm curious, like just to give people listening

404
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Speaker 1: an example, like what was what was the highlight for

405
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Speaker 1: you today? Or maybe the highlight for you yesterday?

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Speaker 3: Sure, Yeah, so I'm going to tell you about today.

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Speaker 3: Yesterday was the same. This today, I'll give you three days.

408
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Speaker 3: So today it's to write fifteen hundred words. I'm working

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Speaker 3: on a novel. I'm trying to write a science fiction novel,

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Speaker 3: and so it's really important for me, and I think

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Speaker 3: it's probably true for most people who when we're doing

412
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Speaker 3: a writing project really important. So do it every day

413
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Speaker 3: to have my head in it every day. Where it

414
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 3: takes a really long time to boot up, like it

415
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 3: takes a few days, like if you think about booting

416
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Speaker 3: up a computer. For me, the writing computer is like

417
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,399
Speaker 3: it takes days to boot up. So I have to

418
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Speaker 3: keep it running. So I'll try to write fifteen hundred

419
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Speaker 3: words today, and if I do that, I know I'll

420
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Speaker 3: feel really satisfied. That was also my highlight for yesterday

421
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Speaker 3: was to get those fifteen hundred words in it. And

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Speaker 3: I got him done, like just before midnight, you know,

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Speaker 3: but I did get him. I did get him in.

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Speaker 3: And the day before that it was also to write

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Speaker 3: fifteen hundred words. But during the day I had the

426
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Speaker 3: opportunity to go to my My son is now fifteen,

427
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Speaker 3: so I was sixteen when I had my basketball accident.

428
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Speaker 3: My son is fifteen, he's playing high school basketball, and

429
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Speaker 3: I had the chance to go to his basketball practice

430
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Speaker 3: and help out. He's also tall like me, so they

431
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,159
Speaker 3: needed a tall guy to just for him to like

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Speaker 3: bang into for a while. So I went for an

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00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 3: hour before his practice started to work out with him.

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Speaker 3: And then they said, well, why don't you stick around

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Speaker 3: for the whole practice and just like play with us,

436
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 3: you know, like we need an extra they need an

437
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 3: extra person in their practice. So I got to I

438
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 3: got I mean, this is like the every old guy's dream,

439
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 3: Like I got to do high school basketball like practice again.

440
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 3: It was really fun. But that I was playing basketball

441
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 3: for three hours, I was totally worked. Afterwards, I was like,

442
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 3: I was exhausted, totally wiped out, and so I did

443
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 3: not get my writing target done that day. But when

444
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 3: I looked at the day, I was like, well, clearly

445
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 3: the highlight became playing basketball with my son, Like that

446
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 3: was that was something unanticipated, that was great, and I'm

447
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 3: happy to give up meeting my you know, my like

448
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 3: very sort of work related highlight for this life related highlight.

449
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 3: And now at the end of that day on Saturday,

450
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, this was a great day, Like

451
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 3: I don't like, I don't feel bad about not meeting

452
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 3: my goal because really it's kind of like a big

453
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 3: part of this philosophy is just honestly, it's like it's

454
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 3: both raising and lowering expectations at the same time. So

455
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 3: instead of thinking I'm going to do like a thousand

456
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 3: things today, if I just do one thing that's really important,

457
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,919
Speaker 3: that's enough. You know, that's enough to be satisfied. But

458
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 3: I want to choose what that thing is, if at

459
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 3: all possible, And so on that day, I know, like

460
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 3: it's okay that I didn't do every single thing on

461
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 3: the list. It's okay that I changed what was most important.

462
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 3: I did what was most important, and I can feel

463
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,199
Speaker 3: satisfied even if it's one thing.

464
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 1: I like that there's some nice examples, and I liked

465
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: the flexibility there, I think because I really the idea

466
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: of a highlight really resonated with me when I read

467
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: Make Time. But the thing that I struggled with, like

468
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: how I structure my own like to do list, if

469
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 1: you like, is ever since reading cal Newport's deep work,

470
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: which I think you reference in your book, which which

471
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: was just I just love that book. It's so good.

472
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: I now split my to do list up into a

473
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: deep work list and a shallow work list, because I

474
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 1: find if it's all in the one list, then your

475
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: brain just defaults to the easy thing, which is always

476
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 1: shallow work or non cognitively demanding work. And I think

477
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: with the highlight generally on my deep work list, how

478
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: I found that I tend to work is that I'll

479
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: have a handful of things, which might be you know,

480
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: writing my regular column for Entrepreneur, for example, or trying

481
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: to kind of work through the details of a product.

482
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: That I'm trying to design or something like that.

483
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I don't know if it's like

484
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: a type a personality thing like that. It's like, no,

485
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: I want too highlights, give me two highlights, we maybe three.

486
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: Is that a common thing like that comes up? It

487
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 2: is like, yeah, what do you say to that?

488
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 3: It is, well, it is a common thing, and I

489
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 3: mean part of the thing I would say, and you know, honestly, like,

490
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 3: I think one thing that is a challenge for people

491
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 3: with adopting make time is that it is not it

492
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 3: does not feel extreme. And I think people like solutions

493
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 3: that are extreme or opinions that are extreme. And my

494
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 3: opinion about this is not extreme. I think if you

495
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: find that for you, it makes a lot of sense

496
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: to have two highlights. And I would say, hey, you're

497
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 3: you and I'm me. I'm not going to tell you

498
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 3: what it's like to be you, or what it's like

499
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 3: to do the work that you do or whatever. Like

500
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 3: that's great, go for it, but like, but I don't

501
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 3: want to demand that of everybody. And the reason why

502
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 3: that does not work well for me personally is that

503
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 3: if I set two highlights for myself, I'm being dishonest

504
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 3: with myself with my capacity about what I can do

505
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 3: in the day. I As for my own podcast, which

506
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 3: you know we mentioned before we started recording product, Breakfast

507
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 3: Club is this podcast I have with my friend John.

508
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 3: But I interviewed another friend of mine. Her name is

509
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 3: Sarah Cooper. She's a designer, she's a but she's primarily

510
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: a comedian and a writer. Really super funny Sarah Cooper.

511
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 3: If you follow her on Twitter, check out her books.

512
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 3: She's absolutely hilarious. But I interviewed her about her work process,

513
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: how she does her work, because like me, she had

514
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 3: left Google to pursue a different kind of you know,

515
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 3: work of writing and being comedian full time. And one

516
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 3: of the things she said that stuck with me. I

517
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 3: thought it was such a powerful idea was she said

518
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 3: that it's been really important to actually like be honest

519
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 3: about how long it takes to do things, Like instead

520
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 3: of saying I'm going to do these ten things today,

521
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 3: like to say, like, I'm going to do like this

522
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 3: one more important thing. I'm going to do it like

523
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 3: it's going to take me a week maybe, or like

524
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 3: maybe making the timeframe for doing things that are important

525
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 3: like a month. And I think there is so much

526
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 3: of a culture of busyness around most of us all

527
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 3: the time at work and even at least in the

528
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 3: United States, like even outside of work, when I talk

529
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 3: to other parents and I see how busy they are, Like,

530
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,239
Speaker 3: it's just it's everywhere. We're very busy people, And so

531
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 3: the expectation is always to do more and more and

532
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 3: more do it faster. And part of the idea with

533
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 3: Make Time is to say, hey, like it's okay to

534
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 3: have one focal point and to do maybe less, but

535
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 3: give it more energy. Some of this idea of focusing

536
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 3: on doing less each day, of having one thing each

537
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 3: day comes from the experience that my co author John

538
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 3: Zatsky and I had running design sprints and watching all

539
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 3: of these teams, you know, we were sort of facilitating

540
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 3: the sprint running them through this process. We got to

541
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 3: observe them, you know, during during the week, during the

542
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: day and during the week. And one of our big

543
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 3: observations was that there's like one peak energy in the

544
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 3: day for people, like one peak sort of cognitive energy.

545
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: And if you engineer that, if you plan like there's

546
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 3: one main thing we want to do each day, and

547
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 3: we're going to make that the focal point of the day.

548
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 3: And sure we're going to do other things today, but

549
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 3: they're going to kind of lead up to and build

550
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 3: up to that. Then we got much better results and

551
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 3: it's more satisfying at the end of the day. So

552
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 3: for me, if I felt like I have two highlights today,

553
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 3: like the reality is, yeah, I might have two wonderful

554
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 3: things happen or I might get two things done, and

555
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 3: we're maybe that happens in a given day. But to

556
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: set the expectation for myself each day, it could be exhausting.

557
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: It could lead me to do not my best work,

558
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 3: and it could be also disappointing when I can't actually

559
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 3: deliver on it. But again, you know that's me, and

560
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 3: so it's just me.

561
00:27:58,400 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: I like that.

562
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 1: That's quite essentially quite a compelling reason to make me

563
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: just go, okay, just one highlight, that's enough stuff being ridiculous.

564
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 3: Well, I guess one other part is to just distinguish

565
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 3: between what's a highlight and what's like a thing on

566
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 3: your list that you'll need to do. So, like if

567
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 3: you are writing the article for Entrepreneur, like that might

568
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 3: be that might be the highlight that day, you know,

569
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 3: or it might be a thing that's just like on

570
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 3: your to do list because it doesn't require maybe the

571
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 3: draft that you're working on or the editing that you're

572
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 3: working on on that given day. It doesn't require your

573
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 3: peak energy. So part of the way I think about

574
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: it is like, what do I want to give my peak?

575
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 3: What do I can give my best to today? And

576
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 3: I'm going to design and engineer the day around having

577
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 3: my best available for that one moment and or that

578
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: one sort of session of effort and focus. And then

579
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 3: you're kind of prioritizing a bit. So even if there

580
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 3: are two or three important things you're saying, but this

581
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 3: one gets the best of me.

582
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: M I like that way of looking at it. That's

583
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: really cool. That's very cool.

584
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: What I want to move on to your time at

585
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: Google and then you're at Google Ventures. I think you

586
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: were at each one for sort of about five years respectively,

587
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: because I imagine that there are people listening going, well, that's

588
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: all well and good. You're a writer, You're in control

589
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: of all your time. I want to know because you're

590
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: at Google Ventures recently. I think you left there about

591
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: eighteen months ago, and I want to know, like, yeah,

592
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: what was your approach to dealing with meetings and protecting

593
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: your time, because I feel like meetings are the biggest

594
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: thing that people struggle with when it comes to getting

595
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: great work and deep work and focused work or a

596
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: highlight done during the day because other people control your

597
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: diary unless you work at base Camp, of course, but

598
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: if you don't, other people generally control your diary.

599
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: So can you tell me, like how you manage that?

600
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 3: Well? Yeah, and I have had I have had all

601
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 3: kinds of jobs in my life, and including lots of

602
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: different kinds of jobs that tech companies. And it's probably

603
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 3: easiest to remember Google Ventures because it's the most recent,

604
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 3: but I've also worked as I've worked as a manager.

605
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 3: I've worked as an individual contributor, as an intern. I've

606
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 3: worked as a receptionist. I've worked as a busboy, dishwasher.

607
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 3: I find all kinds of different jobs, and so I'm

608
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 3: definitely aware that there are there are different kinds of

609
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 3: demands and different kinds of expectations and requirements for different jobs,

610
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 3: and different cultures of the way that the teams work.

611
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 3: I think that actually, I mean, this is sort of

612
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 3: we don't have to explore this topic, but ironically it is.

613
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 3: I feel I have almost less control over my schedule

614
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 3: now than I did as you know, as a writer,

615
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: as a sort of self employed person whose time is

616
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: like the structure is one percent to me. In some ways,

617
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 3: it's actually harder to do things. But but that's that's

618
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: neither here nor there, at least for right now. The

619
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: thing that I would do at at Google Ventures was,

620
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: I mean, for one thing, the design sprint was a

621
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 3: really powerful redesign of the work week. And so this

622
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: originally sprang from my experience working on you know, as

623
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 3: a designer building products and as a manager managing designers

624
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 3: who are working on products at Google, and so I

625
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 3: wanted to actually get the time to focus on work

626
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 3: so that we could get way into it and make

627
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 3: rapid progress. Because when you could just focus on one thing,

628
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: you know you can get more done. And when you

629
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 3: could batch those days of focus together and get everybody focused,

630
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 3: like thinking on about the same thing, like all of

631
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,239
Speaker 3: those benefits just exponentially increase. So the design Sprint at

632
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 3: first was like this this trick to redesign the way

633
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 3: the calendar worked because instead of other people owning the calendar,

634
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 3: instead of sort of dodging around all of these things

635
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 3: that were already on there, recurring meetings and team meetings

636
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: and stand ups and one on ones, then I could

637
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 3: for one week say nope, everything gets erased. Now we're

638
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 3: starting from scratch and we're just focusing on one thing.

639
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 3: So by the time I got to Google Ventures, many

640
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 3: of my weeks were design Sprints, and then it was

641
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: easy to figure out, I mean, built into that was

642
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 3: the idea of a highlight for each day, because every

643
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 3: day of the design Sprint has one focal point. On

644
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 3: Monday you make a map, Tuesday, you sketch, Wednesday, you decide, Thursday, prototype, Friday, test,

645
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: and there were no other meetings. It was very easy

646
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 3: on weeks when we were not in design sprints. Then

647
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 3: we had to figure out what to do. And one

648
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: of the things that John and I my co author

649
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 3: who was also my colleague at Google Ventures, started doing

650
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 3: was to batch our meetings together because we wanted some

651
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 3: of that great focus that like, the resource of having

652
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: a day with no meetings is it's really special. You

653
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 3: can do different kinds of things than even if you

654
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 3: have one meeting, right, it can kind of spoil the attention,

655
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 3: like I know it's coming up, and I'm like kind

656
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 3: of I don't really want to get all the way

657
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 3: into something because I know I'm going to have to

658
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 3: go talk to that person or whatever. And so an unspoiled,

659
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 3: totally clear day is really powerful. So we would block

660
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 3: off two or three days a week and have those

661
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 3: meeting free days and then batch together all of our meetings.

662
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: On the other two days, like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday might

663
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 3: be like just totally clear, and we would be focusing

664
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 3: on writing projects or design projects whatever. Thursday, Friday we

665
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 3: would just cram full of meetings. I'd be totally in

666
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: meeting mode on those days, and you know, I would

667
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 3: actually do a better job of being in meetings of

668
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,479
Speaker 3: you know, advising companies or whatever it might be in

669
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 3: those days, because I was totally locked in to that

670
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: mode of being in meeting mode. So that was the

671
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 3: way I dealt with it at Google Ventures. But there

672
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 3: even still I had a lot more control over my

673
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: schedule than I did when I was working at Google

674
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: as an individual contributor or you know, like the further

675
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 3: back I remember in my career, the less agency I had,

676
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 3: And so a lot of the tactics in Make Time

677
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 3: are about how to start creating that space from scratch,

678
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 3: from a situation where you might not have one hundred

679
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 3: percent control over the calendar. And one of the things

680
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 3: that I really like doing is, for one thing, just

681
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 3: even if you don't do anything to the calendar, but

682
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: you become aware of what's most important to you each

683
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 3: day with the highlight that changes the day. Now you

684
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 3: know where to give your attention. That's powerful if you

685
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 3: can then also block time for it on the calendar,

686
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 3: so you say, okay, the most important thing is that

687
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 3: it's not if it's not already a meeting or something,

688
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 3: let me actually place the time on the calendar so

689
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 3: I can defend it, figure out when it's going to happen.

690
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: That's powerful. Over time, you can start blocking like a

691
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 3: recurring time on the calendar when it's your time to

692
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 3: do work, it's your time to do your highlight, whatever

693
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 3: it might be, and blocking it off might defend other

694
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 3: people from being able to take it over. And I

695
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 3: think that over time, doing that, saying no to projects

696
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 3: that are going to infringe on your ability to do

697
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 3: what you think is most important, you can slowly apply.

698
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 3: You know, you can try to just slowly, degree by degree,

699
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 3: turn your calendar into a base camp calendar. And I

700
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 3: actually think that's possible. You know, there are cases where

701
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 3: you're going to have to actually have a tough discussion

702
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 3: with a boss or a colleague and explain why your

703
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 3: prioritization needs to shift, why you need that time back.

704
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 3: But in many cases, the choice to give up our

705
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 3: time is one that we're making ourselves by default. Like

706
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 3: I would often just give up my time because I'll

707
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 3: say yes to meetings. I'll assume that the default of

708
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 3: I have to go to that meeting is the correct

709
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 3: one when if I just didn't show up, if I

710
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 3: said no, the world wouldn't end and I would be

711
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 3: able to do a better job on my own work.

712
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: When you did have less control over your working.

713
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 1: Life, Like, how how did you get your boss or

714
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: your coworkers to kind of buy into what you were

715
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 1: doing with your time? Do you remember sit of any

716
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 1: strategies that you used back then, like aside from blocking

717
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 1: out that, I guess one highlight if.

718
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 3: You like one thing that is really powerful and there

719
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 3: there's actually a study about the power of the word

720
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 3: because it's oh gosh, I can't remember the year, but

721
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 3: it's long enough ago that xerox machines were a big deal.

722
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 3: So you know, if listeners are old enough to remember

723
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 3: when we used to have to make photocopies quite often,

724
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 3: having to make a xerox or a photocopy of something

725
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 3: was a really big deal. And and people would wait

726
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 3: in line, Like I remember being a college student and

727
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 3: waiting in line to use a copy machine to copy

728
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 3: off my paper. So this study that they did was

729
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 3: they were trying to see what kinds of excuses would

730
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 3: let would allow people to sort of let people cut

731
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 3: them and cut in front of them in line to

732
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 3: use the xerox machine. And I mean, they just wanted

733
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 3: to They were studying excuses, not xeroxes. In particular. But

734
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: so what they found was that when people used the

735
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 3: word because, folks were crazily more likely to let them

736
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 3: cut in line, even if the only thing they said

737
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 3: was can I use the Xerox machine before you? Because

738
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 3: I need to make copies? If that was the only reason,

739
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 3: because I need to make copies, which is the only

740
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 3: thing anyone who is in line could do with the

741
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 3: Xerox machine, that's all it did was make copies. But

742
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 3: there's just something about saying because that if they if

743
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 3: somebody said because I need to make copies, versus saying

744
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 3: can I use the Xerox machine ahead of you, they

745
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 3: like people were like fifty percent more likely to let

746
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 3: or something I can't remember the exactly, never more likely

747
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 3: to let them cut in line. And it's not that

748
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 3: this is like underhanded or tricky, but if you tell

749
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 3: people why you want to do something different, people are

750
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 3: much more accommodating than I think we generally give them

751
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 3: credit for. I think generally in work environments where you know,

752
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 3: if you if you remember like starting your job, the

753
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 3: first day you start your job, or any you know,

754
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 3: you go into an new workplace, it's natural that you're

755
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 3: trying to figure out like what are the rules here?

756
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 3: Like you know and not that like in an office,

757
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 3: there's all these rules, but you're kind of trying to

758
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 3: figure out, like how do stuff work. I remember starting

759
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 3: to work at Google or before that, I worked at Microsoft,

760
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 3: and like starting off a new project, new teams, new company,

761
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 3: and like trying to figure out, like how do things work?

762
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 3: What do you do? Like how do I get things done?

763
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 3: How do I be effective in my job? And how

764
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 3: do I also help other people do what they're trying

765
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 3: to do. And you're kind of on the lookout for

766
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 3: the norms and for like how to kind of make

767
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 3: sure you're working in the appropriate way. And we do

768
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 3: this out of the best of intentions, but the result

769
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 3: is that we're often like we get really set and

770
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 3: like stuck on these default ways that people behave. So

771
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 3: if you want to, for example, block off your mornings

772
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 3: every morning of the week from you know, I don't know,

773
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 3: eight am till eleven am or eight am till noon,

774
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: just to work on individual work and to be heads down,

775
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 3: to not let people interrupt you so that you can

776
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 3: do your own project that might break the norms of

777
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 3: what other people are doing, but just because it breaks

778
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 3: the norms, like you can't assume that people really care

779
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 3: about the norms that much. And if you tell people like,

780
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 3: I'm breaking the norm because and then you just give

781
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 3: them a reason why you're doing it, people are inclined

782
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 3: to let you do that, I think because sort of

783
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 3: unlocks this this feeling that we all have of like trust.

784
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 3: We generally want to trust one another and want to

785
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 3: give each other the benefit of the doubt. So yeah,

786
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 3: so my tactic would be, like back when I was

787
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 3: at Google, like, hey, I'm blocking this off or I'm

788
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 3: going to say no to that meeting or whatever because

789
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 3: I'm working on this project I'm working on. I would

790
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 3: tell people the name of the thing, you know, or

791
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 3: I might just say I'm working on an important project.

792
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: I can't do it right now, or I need this

793
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 3: time because I'm working on an important project. That was

794
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 3: really powerful putting a little signature at the bottom of

795
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 3: my email that said I'm only checking email two times

796
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 3: a day because I'm focusing on important work, and that

797
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 3: was always on there. You know, that was a powerful

798
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 3: way to let people know I'm not going to get

799
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 3: back your email as fast as possible. But the thing

800
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 3: that actually was amazing about both of those things. Was

801
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 3: the most powerful signal wasn't to the other people, It

802
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 3: was to me. It was to tell me, hey, Jake,

803
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 3: is okay to not check your email every five minutes.

804
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 3: Oh hey, it's okay to actually focus on that thing

805
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 3: that you think is important on in the mornings, giving

806
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 3: myself permission. By doing that, other people are less hard

807
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 3: on us than we are hard on ourselves, usually about

808
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 3: being true to what we believe is important.

809
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: That's such great advice.

810
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: And on the topic of email, yet you write a

811
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: little bit about email in May Time, But I'm curious

812
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: right now, how do you approach email? I was interested

813
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: when I approached you. I emailed you to TV on

814
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: the show, and I think you took a few weeks

815
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: to respond, and you certainly didn't respond to my tweet

816
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: on Twitter, not that I was expecting that, but when

817
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: we started locking in a time, you were pretty fast

818
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: on the response. So I just want to know, like,

819
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 1: how are you approaching email and what was behind sort

820
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: of I guess that that strategy.

821
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I've so. I talk a bit about my

822
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 3: strategy my like, there are some techniques that we talk

823
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 3: about in Make Time and I've been thinking I should

824
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 3: write up the exact way that I do it. Now

825
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 3: this is somewhat insane, I mean, and it doesn't. It

826
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,280
Speaker 3: wouldn't work for everybody, but I think there are elements

827
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 3: of it that could work for anybody. One of the

828
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 3: things is I try to be as slow as possible

829
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: to respond on email, like as slow as I feel

830
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 3: like I can possibly get away with, because I know

831
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 3: that I love email. I love it. I love I mean,

832
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 3: I've been using it since it was There's this used

833
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 3: to be a tool called Pine you just like it

834
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 3: was just a text only interface for email. And when

835
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 3: I first saw email, I just thought, this is so

836
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 3: magical that you can just like send a message and

837
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 3: it just instantly goes wherever, like it just I don't

838
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 3: know it. It was just amazing to me, magical. And

839
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 3: as I said, I worked on the Gmail product for

840
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 3: actually a few years, and it's a powerful tool. Actually,

841
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 3: email sort of seems kind of old fashioned, I guess

842
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 3: in some ways nowadays, and often we don't even pay

843
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 3: attention to it because it seems like just it's just

844
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 3: like oxygen, it's everywhere, like we don't really think about it,

845
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 3: but it's really powerful as this really powerful effect on

846
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 3: our prioritization. I mean, it's most of our to do

847
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 3: lists live in our email inboxes, and this feeling that

848
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 3: we have to check it all the time. You know,

849
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: people criticize social media all the time, but often we

850
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 3: don't think about the distraction email causes. And so anyway,

851
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 3: it's it's really powerful sort of has this control over

852
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,439
Speaker 3: our time in a way that no other tool does,

853
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 3: I believe. But yeah, so so for me trying to

854
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 3: restrict myself from using email, it's actually like I have

855
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 3: to hold myself back, like if it took me like

856
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 3: and it sometimes will take me like a couple months

857
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 3: to get back to people on email. It's not because

858
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 3: like what I most want to do is answer email

859
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 3: like I would like I want to like go because

860
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 3: it's it's easy. I feel like I'm making progress, I'm

861
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 3: communicating with people like it gives me these small senses

862
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 3: of productivity. The problem is that productivity gets in the

863
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 3: way of being purposeful, and so productivity versus purposeful is

864
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 3: a concept I've been thinking about a lot, and productivity

865
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 3: is like a way to measure a factory, like if

866
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 3: a factory cranks out a lot to widgets. Then it's

867
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 3: a productive factory and it's doing lots of things. And

868
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 3: I think that all of our obsession with productivity and

869
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 3: work is misplaced because it treats humans like we're a factory,

870
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 3: like making widgets, making things, making as many little things

871
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 3: as possible, where it's like, if you're purposeful, you might

872
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 3: be doing a lot less, but you know, it's back

873
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 3: to that idea of deep work versus shallow work. You're

874
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: doing things that matter. And email is for me, it's

875
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 3: just something that I will burn up a ton of

876
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 3: time and energy on if I don't get control of it.

877
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 3: So the way I handle it is, for one thing,

878
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 3: I have to lock myself out of it. I use

879
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 3: this tool called freedom, so I not only don't have

880
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 3: it on my phone, but I also have to lock

881
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 3: myself out of it on the computer so that I

882
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 3: will force myself to write or to do whatever sort

883
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 3: of more meaningful project at the time I need to

884
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 3: work on each day. So I'm locked out of email

885
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 3: between like like from in the morning all the way

886
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 3: till ten am, and then I think it shuts off

887
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 3: again at eleven am, so I have like a one

888
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 3: hour window and then it's shut off until three pm.

889
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 3: So even during the day, like I have very limited windows,

890
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 3: I really only have those two chances to check email.

891
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:33,959
Speaker 3: And then the other thing I'll do is when I'm

892
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 3: traveling or when i have stuff going on, I try

893
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 3: to go all in on those projects, whatever it might

894
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 3: be if I'm teaching workshops or when I was promoting

895
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 3: make Time. So when you wrote to me, it's around

896
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 3: the time when I'm was promoting make Time, and I

897
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 3: try to give myself permission to let the email just

898
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 3: pile up, with the idea that I'll actually be more

899
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 3: effective answering it if I do it in a batch.

900
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 3: Later on, I know that if something is really pressing

901
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 3: and urgent, people will they'll find a way to contact otherwise,

902
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 3: you know, and folks who I already know are folks

903
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 3: who've already started having a conversation with on email, Like

904
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 3: those messages will come to the top. People can you know,

905
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 3: text me if they have my phone number, And so

906
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 3: I found that the urgent stuff will come through. Sometimes

907
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 3: there are little bad things that happen, and this is

908
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 3: something Tim ferriss I think uses this phrase of like

909
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 3: letting little bad things happen, you have to be willing

910
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 3: to do that, you know, sort of in the service

911
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 3: of doing these larger projects. But for me, it's all

912
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 3: about whatever I can do to slow down the inbox,

913
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 3: to resist my desire to be on it. And I

914
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 3: actually I used to teach a class at Google on

915
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 3: how to keep your inbox empty at all times, and

916
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 3: so I have gone way down the rabbit hole in

917
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 3: that direction. But now I've reformed. I think that's actually

918
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 3: the wrong way to do it. So I'm trying to

919
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:51,399
Speaker 3: put on the brakes all the time.

920
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: That's awesome, And I got to say I love the

921
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: freedom app. I'll link to a lot of the things

922
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: that we've been talking about in the show notes, but

923
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: I feel like that is that is gold. If you

924
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: don't have the willpower and can't be bothered resisting temptation,

925
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,839
Speaker 1: then just take it away with freedom, which can block

926
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: you out of really anything that you want. I want

927
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: to start sort of asking just a few wrap up

928
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: sort of rapid fire questions because we are over time

929
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 1: and I need to get.

930
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 2: You get no. I could just keep on chatting. This

931
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: is great. I want to know.

932
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 1: Like one of the things I always ask yess is

933
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: because I think like, there's so much information out there,

934
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: and I know that you're you're not a consumer of

935
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: a lot of things, like the news, for example, and

936
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: I want to I feel like it's really valuable to know, well,

937
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: what are you consuming? So on the topic of books,

938
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 1: and I think let's go with the genre of, you know,

939
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: being more purposeful with your time. What are what are

940
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 1: your sort of you know, one or two or three

941
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: kind of go to books that have really changed your thinking.

942
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 3: One of the things that changed my thinking a lot.

943
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 3: My gosh, I'll talk about three. I guess the first

944
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 3: one is Deep Work. I mean, I think that's a great.

945
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 3: One is very recent. I feel like that I read

946
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,399
Speaker 3: that actually we were already underway writing Make Time, and

947
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 3: a lot of people have pointed out there's the philosophies

948
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 3: are so similar, the approach, the way we talk about

949
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 3: what to do or advise people want to do, and

950
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 3: even sort of I think the tone of the writing

951
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 3: is very different, but the philosophies, I think we're just

952
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 3: like so similar. And so I love I love that book.

953
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,399
Speaker 3: And if you either, if you pick up Make Time

954
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 3: and you feel like, oh, this isn't like kind of

955
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 3: serious or academic enough or if you like make Time,

956
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 3: but you're like I want to know more. I want

957
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 3: to know more about like the science behind this, or

958
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 3: like really deep, you know, like thinking behind this. Calm

959
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 3: Newport's deep work is great and it's it's just he's

960
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 3: a super smart guy and and really really opinionated. And

961
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 3: that's a good one to read for me. The two

962
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 3: other books that I think we were so powerful for me. God,

963
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 3: Actually there's three other ones I want to talk about.

964
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 3: You said there were going to be fast questions. Sorry,

965
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 3: I'll try to be fast. Yeah. One of them is

966
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 3: Getting Real, which was written by Jason Freed of base Camp,

967
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 3: Jason Freed and David Hennemeier Hansen, and they wrote this

968
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 3: before base Camp was base Camp, when it used to

969
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 3: be called thirty seven Signals, and it was a free

970
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 3: book that you could download online. They self published it.

971
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 3: You can still like you can, I think you can

972
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 3: buy it, but you can also just read it online.

973
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 3: So if you search for Getting Real thirty seven Signals

974
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 3: or Getting Real base Camp, I think you'll find it.

975
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 3: And that book eventually was like sort of re written

976
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 3: and expanded and revised and became Rework, which was a

977
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 3: you know, like a regular real published book that you

978
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 3: could buy everywhere. But I read Getting Real back in

979
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,839
Speaker 3: two thousand and six or whenever it came out. I

980
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 3: was working on Microsoft, and it just was like, you know,

981
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 3: their whole approach to saying like, hey, like the way

982
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 3: work works doesn't have to be that way. I was like, wow,

983
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 3: like that's it. Just it opened my mind, and a

984
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 3: lot of that philosophy stuck with me through thinking about

985
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 3: the design sprint, which was really trying to wipe away

986
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 3: all of the default ways we did work and create

987
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 3: a recipe for doing it a different way. Stuck with

988
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 3: me through kind of thinking about how I handled my

989
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 3: own work. That's a powerful one. Another one that was

990
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 3: really powerful for me is Getting Things Done, which is

991
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 3: just like the classic productivity book, and I think that

992
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 3: applying so this by David Allen Getting Things Done. And

993
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 3: you know, most people, I think maybe have heard of

994
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,720
Speaker 3: this book already. It's a very prescriptive sort of system

995
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 3: for handling to dos and for handling you know, email

996
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 3: and messages and like everything that we have to do

997
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,439
Speaker 3: in our lives and how to get them done. Now,

998
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 3: for me, there are problems with the system. It's too

999
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 3: perfect and when I was was running the system perfectly,

1000
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 3: I was just kind of servicing the system, and I

1001
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 3: found I was just kind of reacting to other people's priorities.

1002
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 3: I couldn't. It was like it was like it consumed me.

1003
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,760
Speaker 3: And then when I wasn't doing it right, I felt guilty.

1004
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 3: Now that's just me. A lot of people have success

1005
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 3: with it, and they sort of get this freedom from

1006
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 3: it that I never quite got to. But I would

1007
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 3: say that the philosophy, the way he talks about how

1008
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 3: sort of breaking things down into smaller components, and like

1009
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 3: the almost like the it's almost like a bit a

1010
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 3: bit like philosophical or even like like like like meditative

1011
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 3: at times, like he's talking about unlocking psychic energy by

1012
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,919
Speaker 3: doing some you know, tasks that you haven't been able

1013
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 3: to start. And it's really true, and I think it

1014
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 3: gave me sort of a like a sense of the

1015
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 3: power of rethinking the way we do our work. Anyway,

1016
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 3: I love I love the way he talks about doing stuff.

1017
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 3: And then the third one I want to recommend is

1018
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 3: the Happiness fourth I guess it's fourth, can't count. The

1019
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 3: fourth one is the Happiness Project Bia Gretchen Rubin and

1020
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 3: the Happiness Project is so great. It's just she spent

1021
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 3: a year doing experiments herself to try to be happier,

1022
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 3: not to try to do the you know, like a

1023
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 3: lot of the things we do are with an end

1024
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 3: goal of being happy. And she was like, well, let's

1025
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 3: just cut right to the quick. What makes people happier?

1026
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 3: And it's It really also made me think about how

1027
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 3: to run experiments and treat what was going on in

1028
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 3: my life day to day as an experiment, which is

1029
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 3: a big idea and Make Time. Sorry, that wasn't rapid

1030
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 3: fire at all. I'll do better.

1031
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 2: It's so funny.

1032
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 1: No one answers these rapid fire questions rapidly, so pretty

1033
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: much like every other guest, I love the Happiness Project.

1034
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 2: That would be one of my favorites as well.

1035
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 1: It's such a cool book, so good.

1036
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 2: I want to ask.

1037
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 1: I want to ask about apps and tools that you're using.

1038
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 1: And look, I'll put a link to I think it

1039
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,439
Speaker 1: was the resources page on the Make Time website where

1040
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: you list to quite a few different tools.

1041
00:51:58,480 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 2: But what are your favorites?

1042
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 1: You mention freedom and either online or offline tools that

1043
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: you feel kind of things that you use almost on

1044
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 1: a daily basis at the moment.

1045
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have an app coming out for make Time,

1046
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 3: and depending on when this episode comes out, it'll come

1047
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 3: out in the app will come out in January, So

1048
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:20,439
Speaker 3: if folks are listening to this in January or after

1049
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 3: January twenty nineteen or after, you can look for the

1050
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 3: make Time app. And that's sort of a it's meant

1051
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 3: hopefully it works well. I hope. It's really a shame

1052
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 3: if it doesn't, since I'm a product designer and it's

1053
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 3: the book, but it's a way to sort of apply

1054
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 3: this idea of creating a highlight and actually like making

1055
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 3: time for it. It has a timetimer, So one of

1056
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 3: the things I love is a physical timetimer. This is

1057
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 3: the name of this timer, and they're really great. They

1058
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 3: have a little dial that you turn and you can

1059
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 3: see the time elapse as it just helps me focus

1060
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 3: on whatever I'm doing. That's kind of built into the

1061
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 3: app as well, but you can buy physical ones. So

1062
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 3: Timetimer is wone. Make Time app is one. There's an

1063
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 3: app called Block and Flow that I really like. Is

1064
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 3: just a very simple, very positive way to nudge me

1065
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 3: towards focusing on an activity, and I really like that one.

1066
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 3: It's a nice little app called Block and Flow I

1067
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 3: really like. Quite honestly, I think a very powerful apps

1068
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 3: are the reminders app and the notes app on the phone.

1069
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 3: And because I have so stripped down what's on my

1070
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 3: phone to such a great extent, I don't have much

1071
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 3: on there. But actually the ability to be able to

1072
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 3: type in notes on the phone and then have it

1073
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,720
Speaker 3: sink and be available everywhere is really amazing. It's magical.

1074
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 3: I could just think back to like eleven years ago

1075
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 3: when we didn't have iPhones like that was amazing. That's

1076
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 3: an amazing thing to have being able to talk to

1077
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 3: the phone and say, remind me of this thing at

1078
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 3: that time, so that it goes out of my head

1079
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 3: and Siri like listens to what I say and does it.

1080
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 3: Like that's amazing. That's enough for me for the the

1081
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 3: iPhone to be. So some of those simple tools are

1082
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,399
Speaker 3: are so powerful. And then I guess, as we already

1083
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 3: talked about freedom, freedom is a huge one. So just

1084
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 3: like letting me make the choice once that I want

1085
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 3: to be offline and focused, and then I don't have

1086
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 3: to use willpower anymore. It sort of takes care of

1087
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 3: it for me.

1088
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, And look, finally, how can people find you

1089
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: Jake and read more of your stuff?

1090
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, So the two places I would direct people

1091
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,439
Speaker 3: are to jakenap dot com and I have like you'll

1092
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 3: find links to my books and links to some of

1093
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 3: my blog posts, and you'll also find link to my podcast.

1094
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 3: That's the other place I would say you could check out.

1095
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 3: My podcast is called Product Breakfast Club. It's I don't

1096
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 3: really know what it's about, but it's me and my

1097
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 3: friend John just kind of rambling and talking about stuff

1098
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:54,439
Speaker 3: and occasionally we talk about business and design and ways

1099
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 3: of working. But it's much less it's much less focused

1100
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 3: than this conversation was, but sometimes fun.

1101
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:01,919
Speaker 2: So it's so much fun.

1102
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 1: I got to say, I love your podcast and for

1103
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: those that have listened to this episode, I reckon a

1104
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 1: great one to start with is the interview that you

1105
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: guys do with Jason Freed from base Camp.

1106
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 2: That was That was such a fantastic chat.

1107
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was that was a lot of That was

1108
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 3: a lot of fun. He schooled us on business. Cool.

1109
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: Cool. Well, look, thank you so much for your time, Jake.

1110
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 1: The day is only just started here in Melbourne, Australia,

1111
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 1: where I'm based, but this has definitely been the highlight

1112
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: of my days, so so thank you so much.

1113
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 3: Has been super fun. Thanks for having me on about that.

1114
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 1: Hello there, That is it for today's show. I hope

1115
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: you liked my chat with Jake and got some good

1116
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: tips out of it.

1117
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 2: And if you did enjoy it, why not share.

1118
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: The episode with someone who you think could also benefit

1119
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: from it. That would be completely awesome. If you share

1120
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 1: it and spread the word about how I work.

1121
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 2: That it would be amazing.

1122
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: So that is it for today's show and I will

1123
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: see you next time.